View source for Meta:Requests for comment/Bureaucrat removal of permissions

{{rfc subpage local
 |status  = resolved
 |comment = After a month of discussion, even discounting my votes, there's no consensus to keep bureaucrats with the ability to remove users from the sysop and bureaucrat user groups. As such, closed and filled as [[phab:T106291]]. Since the result of this discussion is a pure math counting, after requesting that other user closed this and getting no reply at RFH <small>(what a surprise... <sigh>)</small>, given that discussions can not be kept open forever, I have decided to close it myself.
 |date    = 2015-06-17
}}

== Statement of the issue ==
: '''Note:''' This RfC will just affect Meta-Wiki [[Meta:Bureaucrats|policy]] and configuration.

This RfC looks to undo '''Meta-Wiki bureaucrats''' be able to add ''and remove'' both, sysop and bureaucrat flags (config change approved in [[phab:15509]] on 2008). I had this discussion in mind for quite some time. I think that we loose nothing in discussing things.

In the past, all advanced-holder-permissions users were subject to a different confirmation system that was carried at [[Meta:Administrators/confirm]]. All administrators and other advanced right holders were yearly reconfirmed in batches each three months by votings. See [[Meta:Administrators/confirm/Archives|here]] for the archives, [[Meta:Administrators/confirm/Archives/2009-01]] for the last round and [[Meta:Administrators/confirm/bureaucrat chat]] for the discussions for some cases, as an example.

That system generated frequent requests to the stewards to remove rights, so it was discussed at [[Meta_talk:Requests_for_adminship/Archives/2008#Radical_idea]] that bureaucrats should be able to remove righs. Although few users were in favor, the level of such requests were indeed not flooding stewards, and [[Meta_talk:Requests_for_adminship/Archives/2008#De-sysopping.3F|some concerns were raised]] afterwards the configuration was finally [[Meta_talk:Requests_for_adminship/Archives/2008#Bureaucrat_add.2Fremove_permissions_changed|changed]] to allow bureaucrats to add and remove administrator and bureaucrat permissions. Years later, some wikis, somewhat following our (bad) example, started requesting and were granted identical abilities, listing them at [[Bureaucrat#Removing_access]].

The former confirmation system was abolished per [[Meta talk:Administrators/confirm#Tired of this|this discussion]] in 2009, and replaced by an objective activity measure at [[Meta:Administrators/Removal]], which happens twice a year. System that is actually in use, and which generates a rather low number of removals since the requirements for keeping rights at Meta are quite easy to achieve.

I think bureaucrats here should be removed the ability to remove rights:

* '''I feel that bureaucrats do have unnecesary excessive power at Meta-Wiki being able to remove this two sensitive permissions without even a desysop policy for other things but inactivity'''.
* We should not be special. Nothing appart of having more "power" justifies bureaucrats at Meta to have such big access.
* The configuration change performed in the past will not be granted nowadays. I can not hardly call such discussion by few users a consensus for such an important change.
* The level of rights removals due to inactivity are low, and so will be the number of requests to stewards.
* Similarly, althought Meta does allow users to be flagged as temporary admins, the number of them are low, and so will be the number of requests to stewards.
* The bureaucrat position is slowly but constantly loosing its ''raison d'être'', being recently removed their most user tool, the rename tool, in favor of a global process. As [[User:MZMcBride|MZMcBride]] once said IIRC, this permission might even dissapear in some years.
* Stewards are avalaible on a daily basis, at all timezones vs. 9 bureaucrats here. They perform this tasks on nearly all projects and there's no reason why they should not be trusted again to perform this tasks here.
* Nearly all bureaucrats at Meta are stewards nonetheless.

Since the discussion that led to this change is rather old, I think that the Meta-Wiki community should be able to review it and voice their opinion.

Notice of this discussion will be given at [[Meta:Babel]] and [[RFH]].

&mdash;[[User:MarcoAurelio|MarcoAurelio]] 16:25, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

== Discussion ==
<pre>
=== Comment by {username} ===
Lorem ipsum... --~~~~
</pre>

=== Comment by MF-Warburg ===
I agree with the proposal. I am of the opinion that bureaucrats on no wiki should be able to remove sysop rights (let alone bureaucrat), except maybe enwiki and similarly sized ones; it's better that stewards do it to give it additional scrutiny. Here on Meta, it is additionally very easy to find the proper request page of stewards, as it is on the same wiki. Of course, when this is implemented, removals of Meta rights should be done by a steward who is not a Meta bureaucrat (and preferably also not a sysop). Your steward & Meta bureaucrat (double COI :OOO ) --<small>[[User:MF-Warburg|MF-W]]</small> 16:58, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

===Comment by Nemo_bis ===
I think Meta-Wiki is the ''only'' (public) Wikimedia wiki where it might make sense for bureaucrats to replace stewards in removing advanced permissions, precisely because there is a big overlap between the two groups and the respective daily-work communities and a number of consequences might be drawn from this. However, the benefits are at best theoretical. --[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 17:26, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

===Comment by Stemoc ===
For someone who was heavily involved in getting bureaucrats more rights back in 2008 as per the link above (I had no life back then, things haven't changed much :P ), I honestly think there is no longer a need for Meta to have Bureaucrats, they have literally been superseded by Stewards. Back then there was a need for Local bureaucrats, a real need and due to Stewardship being in its infancy and the non-existence of SUL, the crats then did a lot more work than an average crat on any other wiki; but 7 years on, its clear that there is no longer a need. I'm personally in favour of getting rid of Bureaucratship on this wiki altogether, afterall its no longer important in any other wiki bar the major ones.--<span style="color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-size:medium;font-family: Monotype Corsiva;">[[User:Stemoc|Ste]][[User talk:Stemoc|moc]]</span> 05:31, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

=== Comment by Barras ===
While I voted early, I always wanted to explain myself. Actually, I see no problem with crats de-whatever here on meta. I don't think it's ever been a problem. For crats it makes simply their life easier here, especially when it comes to the activity review all six months. Once done, the crat can simply implement the consensus. When crats lose that right, they'd have to request the removal on SRP and the crats (if they are also stewards) who process the stuff can't then even simply act on it as it'd probably be against the "don't use your tools on your home wikis" rule. Changing the current system imo makes everything just needlessly more bureaucratic. The only thing crats here can do is to remove all other crats, which would be quickly noticed and fixed. This wiki is very well monitored all around. I think that granting rights is often more "problematic" than the removal of rights. Just thing of what we can do with CNs, the www.wiki*.org templates and many more things. There are by far more dangerous things out there than right removals. However, as you know, I'm currently one of the longest serving and still active crats, so I certainly have a COI here. -[[User:Barras|<span style="color:blue; font-family:Bookman Old Style">'''Barras'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Barras|<span style="color:red; font-family:Bookman Old Style">'''talk'''</span>]] 16:56, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

=== Comment by be..anyone ===
There are only {{special|ListUsers|group|bureaucrat|three}} bureaucrats who are not also stewards. It's odd that bureaucrats can remove this right from their colleagues (or sysops) on only [[Bureaucrat#Removing_access|7 (or 18)]] projects including Meta. But if it's globally a bad idea, maybe it should be also solved globally. Not completely serious, an import of [[w:WP:BROKE|WP:BROKE]] might be simpler than a local fix of this historical oddity. &ndash;[[User:Be..anyone|Be..anyone]] ([[User talk:Be..anyone|talk]]) 01:23, 29 June 2015 (UTC) <small>[[Special:Diff/12533312|Fixed nit]] removed. &ndash;[[User:Be..anyone|Be..anyone]] ([[User talk:Be..anyone|talk]]) 04:09, 30 June 2015 (UTC)</small>

== Poll ==

=== Meta-Wiki bureaucrats removal of sysop ===
Should Meta-Wiki bureaucrats be able to continue removing users from the administrator user group?

;Yes
# -[[User:Barras|<span style="color:blue; font-family:Bookman Old Style">'''Barras'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Barras|<span style="color:red; font-family:Bookman Old Style">'''talk'''</span>]] 22:26, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
#[[User:Tiptoety|<span style="color:#4E562C;font-weight:bold">Tiptoety</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Tiptoety|<span style="color:#FFDB58">talk</span>]]</sup> 10:06, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
# No need to create extra-barriers (COI etc.). [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 22:25, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
# - '''<span style="text-shadow:#C0C0C0 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em">[[User:Green Giant|<span style="color:#0F0;">Green Giant</span>]] ([[User talk:Green Giant|<span style="color:#00F;">talk</span>]])</span>''' 00:56, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
# [[User:Matiia|Matiia]] ([[User talk:Matiia|talk]]) 02:06, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
# --<font style="font-weight: bold; background-color: #FF0000; color: #ffffff;">[[User:Aldnonymous|AldNonymous]]</font><sup>[[User_talk:Aldnonymous|Bicara?]]</sup> 19:24, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
# --[[User:Krd|Krd]] 09:27, 14 July 2015 (UTC) as it should be at all wikis that have local bureaucrats.
#[[User:Jianhui67|'''<font color="#0E0">Jianhui67</font>]]<sup> [[User talk:Jianhui67|<span style="color:red">'''talk'''</span>]]<span style="color:#0E0">★</span>[[Special:Contributions/Jianhui67|<span style="color:red">'''contribs'''</span>]]</sup> 06:59, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

;No
#--<small>[[User:MF-Warburg|MF-W]]</small> 16:51, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
#--[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 17:02, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
# &mdash;[[User:MarcoAurelio|MarcoAurelio]] 17:03, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
# [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]]<small> ([[User Talk:Ajraddatz|talk]])</small> 22:47, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
#--[[User:Uğurkent|Uğurkent]]<sup>[[User talk:Uğurkent|talk]]</sup> 22:53, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
#--[[User:Syum90|Syum90]] ([[User talk:Syum90|talk]]) 16:54, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
#--[[User:Grind24|Grind24]] ([[User talk:Grind24|talk]]) 17:14, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
# [[User:Natuur12|Natuur12]] ([[User talk:Natuur12|talk]]) 17:18, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
# Not because of rogue crats, but for some of the other reasons. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 01:53, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
# -[[User:Mh7kJ|Mh7kJ]] ([[User talk:Mh7kJ|talk]]) 22:19, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
# [[User:Érico Júnior Wouters|<font color="steelblue">'''Érico Wouters'''</font>]] <small>[[User talk:Érico Júnior Wouters|<font color="gray">(msg)</font>]]</small> 19:52, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

;Abstain

=== Meta-Wiki bureaucrats removal of bureaucrat ===
Should Meta-Wiki bureaucrats be able to continue removing users from the bureaucrat user group?

;Yes
# -[[User:Barras|<span style="color:blue; font-family:Bookman Old Style">'''Barras'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Barras|<span style="color:red; font-family:Bookman Old Style">'''talk'''</span>]] 22:26, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
# [[User:Vogone|Vogone]] ([[User talk:Vogone|talk]]) 22:25, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

;No
#--<small>[[User:MF-Warburg|MF-W]]</small> 16:52, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
#--[[User:Nemo_bis|Nemo]] 17:02, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
# &mdash;[[User:MarcoAurelio|MarcoAurelio]] 17:03, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
# [[User:Ajraddatz|Ajraddatz]]<small> ([[User Talk:Ajraddatz|talk]])</small> 22:47, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
#--[[User:Uğurkent|Uğurkent]]<sup>[[User talk:Uğurkent|talk]]</sup> 22:53, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
#[[User:Tiptoety|<span style="color:#4E562C;font-weight:bold">Tiptoety</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Tiptoety|<span style="color:#FFDB58">talk</span>]]</sup> 10:06, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
#--[[User:Syum90|Syum90]] ([[User talk:Syum90|talk]]) 16:54, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
#--[[User:Grind24|Grind24]] ([[User talk:Grind24|talk]]) 17:15, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
# [[User:Natuur12|Natuur12]] ([[User talk:Natuur12|talk]]) 17:18, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
# Not because of rogue crats, but for some of the other reasons. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rs]][[User talk:Rschen7754|chen]][[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|7754]]''' 01:53, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
#-[[User:Mh7kJ|Mh7kJ]] ([[User talk:Mh7kJ|talk]]) 22:19, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
#[[User:Jianhui67|'''<font color="#0E0">Jianhui67</font>]]<sup> [[User talk:Jianhui67|<span style="color:red">'''talk'''</span>]]<span style="color:#0E0">★</span>[[Special:Contributions/Jianhui67|<span style="color:red">'''contribs'''</span>]]</sup> 16:44, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
# '''<span style="text-shadow:#C0C0C0 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em">[[User:Green Giant|<span style="color:#0F0;">Green Giant</span>]] ([[User talk:Green Giant|<span style="color:#00F;">talk</span>]])</span>''' 00:56, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
# [[User:Érico Júnior Wouters|<font color="steelblue">'''Érico Wouters'''</font>]] <small>[[User talk:Érico Júnior Wouters|<font color="gray">(msg)</font>]]</small> 19:52, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
# --[[User:Krd|Krd]] 09:28, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

;Abstain
#--<font style="font-weight: bold; background-color: #FF0000; color: #ffffff;">[[User:Aldnonymous|AldNonymous]]</font><sup>[[User_talk:Aldnonymous|Bicara?]]</sup> 05:02, 20 June 2015 (UTC)