Commons:Categories for discussion/2016/10/Category:Zentralfriedhof, Vienna

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This discussion of one or several categories is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

Category:Zentralfriedhof, Vienna

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The official English name that is fortunately used consistently by the cemetery's administration is Vienna Central Cemetery.    FDMS  4    19:55, 28 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine. Gryffindor (talk) 22:40, 28 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Mixed-language names are always a bit problematic, so I suggest to treat its official German language name Wiener Zentralfriedhof (see [1]) as a proper name and redirect both of the others to Category:Wiener Zentralfriedhof, or even the other way round as Florian said redirecting both to Category:Vienna Central Cemetery. --Achim (talk) 09:40, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
While I agree that Wiener Zentralfriedhof would be the correct German name, Vienna Central Cemetery (capitalised!) appears to be as official as Wiener Zentralfriedhof and therefore imo both should be treated as proper nouns.    FDMS  4    10:56, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As official, certainly not, as all laws and ordinances of Vienna (the only truly "official" sources) are certainly only written in German and not in English. But I don't disagree with the CfD, as COM:LP says that English names should be preferred where they exist. darkweasel94 12:29, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
+1 Ja, Category:Wiener Zentralfriedhof würde mir auch wesentlich besser gefallen. --Häferl (talk) 22:11, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Dann sollten wir es so machen. Wenn es hier jemanden gibt, der sich damit auskennt, dann du. --Ralf Roleček 22:38, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Mit "dann du" meinst Du sicher den Clemens, oder? Ich mein, daß er "Wiener Zentralfriedhof" heißt, wissen wir beide, aber ich hab noch nie eine Kategorie verschoben. Liebe Grüße, --Häferl (talk) 23:04, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ich meine, daß du DIE Spezialistin für Wiener Friedhöfe bist. --Ralf Roleček 23:10, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ich zweifle an der These, daß jemand Spezialist für etwas wird, nur weil er viele (vielleicht die meisten) Fotos von etwas macht. Also wenn ich einen Herzchirurgen fotografisch begleite, würdest Du dich dann von mir am Herz operieren lassen? :D --Häferl (talk) 23:26, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Dann wärst du die Spezialistin für Fotos vom Herzchirurgen. Ich sag ja nicht, daß du Chefbestatterin in Wien bist ;) --Ralf Roleček 23:32, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be clear: This CFD is not a vote; COM:LP is very clear about such cases and "proper name" is not a catch-all excuse to use terms otherwise only used by German speakers. Involved users may not close CFDs with dissenting opinions.    FDMS  4    10:12, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

COM:LP is indeed clear: it doesn't apply to proper names. Everything else is interpretation. And we are far from closing this discussion: we are discussing to move the Category to Category:Wiener Zentralfriedhof since this is the only official name that has so far been proven. But I can live with the present form as well, since mixed-language Catnames cannot always be avoided, albeit they are indeed a bit awkward. -- Clemens 22:42, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is a broader problem with such a type of descriptive and translantable proper names. Which criteria should be considered?

  • is the proper name oficially registered/codified, or is rather informal and a bit varying?
  • is the subject (by its purpose, importance and activity) rather local, or rather worldwide/international? Do they use translated names at their official website etc.?
  • is the locality of the subject multilingual?
  • has the subject an established and widely used English name, or the English name is ad hoc translation?
  • when an foreigner seek for the subject (in the map, on the internet, in reality), can be more successful with the original (local) name, or with the English name?
  • is the English translation as unambiguous and understandable as the original name?
  • is the name an element of the set of similar names in any parent category? Do exist parallel/analogous names in the category tree? Which variant prevails?

In boundary and too questionable cases, status quo should be preferred to the disputable change. I think, that applies also to our case. --ŠJů (talk) 13:30, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed tne name of the gallery Zentralfriedhof Wien, that should be changed as well. --Achim (talk) 19:59, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Leaf-categories in Category:Cemeteries in Vienna all are named in German (except half of the very category under discussion). Names are constructed either Stadlauer Friedhof or Friedhof Stammersdorf-Ort, which gives us either Wiener Zentralfriedhof or Zentralfriedhof Wien as the target name. Acc. to discussion before, Wiener Zentralfriedhof should be preferred. It does not make much sense to change a single name of a series of names, just to make a point. This is not a weird exception, if you look at leaf-categories of the following cities: Category:Cemeteries in Berlin (mostly German proper names), Category:Cemeteries in Paris by name and Category:Cemeteries in Brussels-Capital Region (French proper names), Category:Cemeteries in Munich (mostly German proper names, similar mixtures as here: Category:Munich Waldfriedhof‎, Category:Munich Westfriedhof‎, Category:Munich Nordfriedhof‎ but also Category:Sendlinger Friedhof (München)‎, Category:Neuer Südfriedhof (Munich)‎), Category:Cemeteries in Rome and Category:Cemeteries in Milan (Italian proper names), Category:Cemeteries_in_Brazil_by_city (Portugese proper names), Category:Cemeteries_in_Madrid (mostly Spanish proper names). Non-Latin languages of course use the latin character cemetery categories, fulfilling the need more to write in latin alphabet, than to avoid proper names (e.g. Category:Cemeteries in Moscow).
For Cemeteries in Austria (apart from Vienna) the situation is not that clear, but the most common naming schemes include Category:Friedhof Achau (121 occurences, German Friedhof with name of municipality or village), Category:Wiener Neustädter Friedhof (36 occ. (but mostly Vienna) ~ Wiener Zentralfriedhof), Category:Stadtfriedhof Schärding (35 occ. ~ Zentralfriedhof Wien; German proper name with name of municipality or village), similar Category:Alter Friedhof, Kitzbühel (14. occ), then followed by Category:Cemetery Weißkirchen in Steiermark (28 occ.; first occ of English cemetery in overall 370 different categories, mostly in Styria and mostly be me and Maclemo, so this is not an important argument). I just mention this here, but I think we should start an action to streamline category names for Austrian cemeteries in addtion to this Cfd.
My proposal, also to end this CfD, is Wiener Zentralfriedhof. --Herzi Pinki (talk) 15:48, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As a proper name of more than national importance is the official German name Wiener Zentralfriedhof to use. Compare, for example, the German name of the category Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde. Even in the English Wikipedia the lemma has the German name and is not called Society of Friends of Music. -- Walter Anton (talk) 00:54, 15 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Stale discussion. Enwiki article is under the name en:Vienna Central Cemetery. Seems irrational not to use enwiki solution. However, opponents can try to convince enwiki users to rename the article--Estopedist1 (talk) 11:01, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dieser Mischmasch mit Vienna ist ebenso überflüssig, wie schon mehrmals erwähnt, sollte die Kategorie Category:Wiener Zentralfriedhof heißen denn das ist nunmal der Name. --Ralf Roletschek 14:30, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

✓ Done: Category already moved long ago. --Bedivere (talk) 02:34, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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