Commons:Deletion requests/File:1944 july 17 moscow german pow.jpg

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File:1944_july_17_moscow_german_pow.jpg

Taken in Moscow, but not PD in Russia. sугсго 14:32, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

The file is PD in the Ukraine, a successor state of the Soviet Union. ("This file is a Ukrainian or Soviet work and it is presently in the public domain in Ukraine [...]: It was published before January 1, 1951, and the creator (if known) died before that date. (This is the effect of the retroactive Ukrainian copyright law of 1993 and the copyright from 50 to 70 years in 2001.)). This file is definitely Soviet work, so it is PD. --Kl833x9 (talk) 15:41, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

 Delete If the photographer is Ukrainian or the photograph was taken in the Ukraine, I can see why this PD tag would be used. However, there is no evidence that either exists. Plus, the photo was taken in Moscow, so the source country will be the Russian Federation and this is not out of copyright there. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 23:43, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

 Keep The photographer was a Soviet photographer. The text of the copyright notice does not require that the photographer has to be a "Ukrainian", for example a soviet citizen registered in the Ukrainian SSR, if this photo has been taken before 1991. It also does not require that the image has to be taken in the area of the present Ukrainian state. The photo has been taken under Soviet jurisdiction and the present Ukrainian State has been a part of the Soviet Union in 1944. The Ukraine is like the Russian Federation a successor state of the Soviet Union, so it is feasible to apply the Ukrainian copyright on this photo. --Kl833x9 (talk) 07:12, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

 Delete - Since when is Moscow in the Ukraine? Moreover, there's no evidence the photo actually is PD in the Ukraine; where's the date of publication? Where's the date of the author's death? Without either of those it cannot be established when the image will enter PD in the Ukraine. More importantly, the image is still copyrighted in the US, which is where our servers are located. Parsecboy (talk) 16:35, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Once again: The Ukraine was part of the soviet union in 1944, so the unkrainian copyright includes every soviet work until 1991. The photo has been published for the first time in the Iswestia on 18th July 1944. The photographer is unknown. --Kl833x9 (talk) 17:27, 11 July 2010 (UTC) 17:26, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that you are correct about the status in the Ukraine, how exactly does that make the image public domain in the United States? You have not addressed that crucial detail, and whether this image remains on Commons or has to be moved to the Ukrainian Wiki depends on whether you or anyone else can prove that this image is PD in the United States. Parsecboy (talk) 02:32, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

In addition, Isvestia is located in St. Petersburg, so the location of publication would be Russia. Ukrainian copyright is therefore irrelevant. Parsecboy (talk) 11:18, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

There is no possibility to differ between ukrainian and russian copyright in the period from 1919 until 1991.
The russian federation and the ukraine are both sucessor states of the soviet union. And both copyrights are including the whole soviet intellectual property. Therefore it is feasible to apply both copyright terms on soviet work no matter where this work has been created and no matter if the Soviet citizen was an Ukrainian or a Russian .
A more demonstrative example for this: Sergey Pavlovich Korolyov has been born and educated in the Ukraine (Ukrainian SSR exactly) and is therefore an Ukrainian. He constructed as chief of the OKB-1 nearly every soviet rocket vehicle from 1946 until 1966. Are these rockets (The Soyus is still used recently) now Ukrainian or Russian technology ? No, they are Soviet technology, therefore both states have the possibility (but not ability) to use Korolyovs inventions. --Kl833x9 (talk) 20:02, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

In addition: The Isvestia was/is located in (St. Petersburg/Petrograd/Leningrad ->three names for the same city) until 1918 and from 1991 until now. From 1918 until 1991 it was located in Moskow. See Izvestia --Kl833x9 (talk) 20:02, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Second addition: The copyright of the United States is by definition irrelevant due to the fact that we have to apply Russian or Ukrainian copyright on this Soviet work. --Kl833x9 (talk) 20:02, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

It is relevant. Under our licensing policies, images must be public domain in the USA and their home country in order to it be hosted here under the public domain. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 20:13, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Lets see (after [1]):
a) It is a work of a foreigner or a US citizen abroad.
b) The period is from 1923 through 1977.
c) The image has been published without compliance with US formalities, and was in the public domain in its source country as of 1 January 1996: The russian federation has joined the Berne Treaty on March 13, 1995, so the 1 January 1996 is relevant. In 1996 the image was public domain in the Russian Federation. Cite of the old russian copyright tag: It was published before January 1, 1954, and the creator (if known) died before that date (For veterans of the Great Patriotic War, the critical date is January 1, 1950). The russian copyright changed in 2008, but this is not relevant. The Ukraine has joined the Berne Treaty in 1996. It was also public domain the Ukraine, because 'it was published before January 1, 1951, and the creator (if known) died before that date. (This is the effect of the retroactive Ukrainian copyright law of 1993 and the copyright from 50 to 70 years in 2001.)
So as far as I see is the image after the US copright law in public domain.--Kl833x9 (talk) 20:57, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

You're wrong; the 2008 Russian copyright law is the one that matters. This photograph is apparently from the Russian State Archives, which means the Russian copyright law is the applicable law—the Russian archives holds the photo and therefore the rights to it, not the Ukrainian archives. Because the Russian law is retroactive, the image is still under copyright protection in Russia. Parsecboy (talk) 10:42, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Since when is a law from the year 2008 relevant, if the protection date is the 1. January 1996 and the image was not copyrighted in russia at that time ? You are discussing unobjectively do you ? --Kl833x9 17:41, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Because copyright is retroactive and items can be placed back under copyright protection. I personally disagree with it, but it happens and we have to follow it. We lost a lot of GPW images due to the 2008 revision of the copyright law, even the raising of the Soviet flag in Berlin. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 17:52, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

The appointed date for the US-Copyright Law was the January 1st 1996. Every file which was public domain on that date, is after the US-copyright Law still in public domain in the US regardless if there have been retroactive law changes or not. --Kl833x9 (talk) 18:21, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

But it won't be public domain in the source country, which makes the files no-go for the Commons. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 18:24, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

The source country was the Soviet union and the Ukraine was a part of the soviet union ... --Kl833x9 (talk) 18:29, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

But the photograph was taken in Moscow, Russia SFSR, not the Ukraine. Unless you can show a publication date INSIDE the Ukraine, then we cannot have this photo on here. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 18:34, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

We are going in circles: I have allready mentioned that neither the russian nor the ukrainian copyright mention that they are protecting only a ukrainian or a russian part of the intellectual property of the soviet union. They are protecting the whole intellectual property ... --Kl833x9 (talk) 20:14, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

 Keep There is no need to delete this photo. As Kl833x9 said, the photograph was taken in the Soviet Union. Hence it is possible to apply the Ukrainian copyright. It doesn't matter in which Federative Republic of the Soviet Union the photo was taken. Also the photographer had the Soviet citizenship (not the Russian, Ukrainian, Kazakh...). --Paramecium (talk) 09:19, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Kl833x9's states "Therefore it is feasible to apply both copyright terms on soviet work." According to that logic, the image must be deleted, because it is unquestionably still under copyright protection in Russia. The 2008 law retroactively placed this image back under copyright protection in Russia, so it's not in the public domain in one of the countries of origin. Parsecboy (talk) 16:40, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

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Deleted, {{PD-Ukraine}} does not apply; not in the public domain in Russia (where the picture was taken), but in the public domain in the U.S. Commons policies require that the image is free both in the source country and the U.S. Kameraad Pjotr 19:03, 3 October 2010 (UTC)