Commons:Deletion requests/Money of Poland

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Money of Poland

[edit]
Items which are free in the US and any URAA signatories without other contracts with Poland (see below)

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Categories

See COM:MONEY#Poland (COM:MONEY#Poland was originally marked as not OK, but has been changed [1]) . Per List of countries' copyright length, any of these items that has a design first introduced to the public after December 31, 1940 remains in copyright and is a derivative work.

Some notes:

  • Any of these items published before 1946 is eligible to be copied to English Wikipedia as free material, as Poland only had a law of 50 years pma on the URAA date in 1996 (which I assume was 50 years pd for corporate authorship).
  • Many of these items would qualify for fair use; w:WP:NFCC#3 stipulates we could probably only rescue a few of them, but if the discussion ends up with delete, we probably can upload some to en.wp.
  • If any of these items have a design from before 1941 which wasn't significantly altered for later publication, then these items would be free, as the changes would only qualify as {{PD-ineligible}}.
  • I propose creating a category Category:Banknotes of Poland (1939-) if all the above categories are deleted.

Magog the Ogre (talk) 04:20, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  •  Info Polish copyright jurists widely (i.e. in handbooks) accept the point of view that Polish currency issued by the National Bank of Poland (NBP) is an official material, therefore its depictions fall into a public domain, as stated in the Polish copyright act from 1994. However this point of view was never tested during any trials (anyway Polish law is not build up on the basis of the doctrine of precedent) nor any official (i.e. from NBP) commented on them, so we have only the "private" (but published and accessible) interpretations available. Masur (talk) 11:24, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]


  •  Delete  Comment I speak only about deleting, because I don't know fair use rules of en-wiki, so I'm not touching the issue of moving these files there. According to the National Bank of Poland (NBP) banknotes issued by it certainly aren't free, as stated on its webpage. And this rule applies whatever banknote age is, however I have doubts about these older than 60 years. But anything post 1945 is certainly unfree. However it has to be noted, that many polish jurists claim that National Bank of Poland cannot really restrict the use of polish banknotes, because as long as they are official currency of Poland they should be regarded as official documents, materials, signs and symbols, therefore PD-polish. However no official statement or legal act was issued on this topic. Masur (talk) 14:48, 24 April 2011 (UTC) below I propose a solution, because actually I agree that NBP's claims for copyrights are without legal basis, but on the other hand claiming that these files are PD would be not fair for Commons users. Masur (talk) 14:27, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Support  Delete. Legal situation of Polish currency images is unclear; we don't have strong protections agains National Bank interpretation. A.J. (talk) 17:31, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Comment As far as I understand Polish law, we can keep in Wikimedia Commons all images of banknotes which were not in the circulation in 1994, when Polish copyright laws were changed, i.e. used in periods before 1939, 1939-1945, 1944-1950 and 1950-1978. Julo (talk) 17:06, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
głęboko nie chce mi się po angielsku myśleć, a i tak sami Polacy, najwyżej sobie potem potłumaczycie. wszystko do 1993 roku można publikować, ponieważ weszło to tzw. public domain, skoro coś juz raz jest opublikowane i uzyskano prawa do publikacji nie traci ich. poza tym to jest materiał urzędowy, a takie można jakiekolwiek publikować. pomyliło wam się coś. Maikking (talk) 10:09, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
wydaje mi się podobnie jak Maikking + potwierdza się to co można było usłyszeć z ust prawników zaproszonych przez Wikimedia Polska na GDJ 2010. LeinaD dyskusja 10:26, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is, that nothing is officialy confirmed. I'd more than happy if polish authorities straightened things up, but up to now we have only lawyers' opinion available, which by any means cannot be considered as legal and valid. Unfortunately it's another example how poor polish copyright law is and how many doubtful cases we still encounter. So, according to the rules of Commons, all such uncertain cases should be deleted "just in case". Masur (talk) 11:24, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Na naszej tablicy ogłoszeń wypowiedział się Gdarin informując że: "prawnicy wypowiedzieli się na ten temat i wyjaśnili kwestię: pl:Wikipedia:Praktyczne porady prawne." Marek M (talk) 11:48, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
 Keep In the opinion of Polish lawyers (the link is produced above) Polish money are official documents of Polish state and because of that they are PD in Poland. Narodowy Bank Polski statement is not valid in this case. Electron ツ ➧☎ 14:09, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
 Comment The only problem is whether NBP agrees with it and can we back our point of view up with something more than "our" lawyers opinions. Not so much time ago, one of wikipedians from pl-wiki wrote to the NBP about pictures of their coins (but made by himself). They were pretty firm about no-commercial and no-modification that can depreciate the image of polish currency re-use of such images and said something about "only for Wikipedia" permission, which rendered it virtually useless. I believe that we have a general problem with a crappy law here, but neither we or "our" lawyer are in position to solve it. Another problem is, that if we want to keep them, we should decide for some license. Let's say {{PolishSymbol}}. But without any additional disclaimers (like: NBP thinks that poses all copyrights, so be warned), this license can make the files look as "safe", which is not true. Therefore maybe we might keep them, under the assumption that NBP is legally wrong and our point of view is backed up by lawyers etc, but to add the disclaimer about the warning? However I don't know how does it correspond to Commons rules. Masur (talk) 14:27, 25 April 2011 (UTC) ps. of course it still leaves us with some of these files with wrongly ascribed authorship/licensing (like self-GFDL etc.)[reply]
I think that we are not layers and because of that we should trust what the profesionals said... Btw. See template:costume - before it created the discussion was very long -> Commons:Deletion requests/Images of costumes tagged as copyvios by AnimeFan. But the opinion of the layer (Mike Godwin) was of the fundamental importance. Electron ツ ➧☎ 15:11, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly agree with lawyers, not only cos they are ones, byt because they sound reasonable. However my question is, do we have any right or shall we in such cases allow for keeping such "dubious" material. Up to now Commons was giving things "as granted" and I simply do think that stating that something is PD equals stating that it's safe in use. However in the discussed situation things might be different. Therefore I proposed at least a dislaimer. Masur (talk) 17:26, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK. We can make new template, e.g. {{PolishMoney}} but {{PolishSymbol}} has a dislaimer already -> However in some instances the use of this image in Poland might be regulated by other laws. So maybe it dislaimer is enought? Electron ツ ➧☎ 18:09, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I thought about having something saying that NBP claims copyrights and stressing this different points of views issue + warning about possible "forgery" threats (besides of copyrights, are there any issues regarding to this aspect and regulated by the Polish law? If yes, it should be in the disclaimer as well). And also we are left with some scans with falsely alleged authorship. Such disclaimer, when I thought about it, wouldn't be against Commons rules (as far as I can say), because it would be something similar to PD-art, when Wikimedia Foundation agreed that faithful reproduction of pd-old cannot be copyrighted by an author of DW. Therefore, I think, if we agree that NBP claims are really not valid on grounds of Polish law, such warninig should be fine - to be fair with Commons users. Masur (talk) 18:46, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Almost all lawyers opinions are that banknotes issued by NBP are not copyrightable, as they are official state signs issued by the official Polish state institution. It doesn't matter what NBP is saying about it on its website. NBP claims cannot overrule the Polish copyright law (art. 4. point. 2 of Polish copyright law). This is not only POV of "our" lawyers but rather vast majority of lawyers. [2][3][4] Polimerek (talk) 20:08, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
 Keep (1) According to Polish copyright law (article 4) "official documents and signs" are out of scope of the copyright law so technically it is not a "public domain (PD-Polish)" but rather a "non-copyrightable material". (2) Wording of advisory note published on NBP's (National Bank of Poland) webpage suggests that design of currency items nevertheless can be a copyrighted creative work if used for tasks not related to its role as feature of legal tender. Most experts in copyright law doubt if this claim would be upheld by Polish courts. Even in the worst case it would prohibit use of note's and coin's design to create something what resembles legal tenders but does not directly depicts them. Wladek (talk) 20:52, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
 Keep Per Electron and Wladek. Masur's explanation seems sufficient. It's extremly unlikely we would ever be sued over that by anybody, hence, meta:copyright paranoia should not be given in. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:44, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
 Keep Explanation appears to be logical and sufficient. Ajh1492 (talk) 18:14, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Question OK, so we widely accept the point of view (shared by number of Polish jurists), that copyright claims of NBP are without legal basis and we can simply ignore them. Two remainig issues - do we need in this situation to create an additional template/disclaimer with a warning (about NBP point of view mainly) and what to do with banknotes with falsely ascribed authorship (as own)? Masur (talk) 19:59, 26 April 2011 (UTC) ps. or even create a new license-template to be used for pl-currency only. Masur (talk) 20:03, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Maybe we can just change the license and assume that these authors chose pd-self license meaning the reproduction and not the original creation which they regarded as PD? Rdrozd (talk) 06:12, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Delete- Although I have seen some interesting arguments, the problem is that a banknote may not be an "official documents and signs" in Poland. Yes it is in the US, but lots of counties, such as Vietnam, Latvia, United Kingdom, etc who have Official Government "Public domain" laws (such as {{PD-VietnamGov}}) but they don't apply to there "National banks". For example Vietnam's Government PD laws don't apply because currency isn't "considered "Legal documents, administrative documents and other documents in the judicial domain and official translations of these documents". In Latvia the Bank of Latvia owns the copyright, not the Latvian government. Latvia currency may be free per statements made by the Latvian Bank’s website, but not because of its Government PD laws, and that is still in question. {{PD-LV}} doesn’t apply to Latvian money. I would think the Polish National Bank would know law.
However, even if the Polish National Bank is making an improper claim as suggested, but I have seen noting from an official Polish government source, such as a court case, judicial opinion, etc, that backs the arguments above. The point of view of "all lawyers” and "our POV" doesn’t make it true or the law. If two people are arguing about who owns the copyright, that doesn’t mean the image isn't copyrighted. I don’t see how we can go by what "Lawyers" deciding what Government copyright laws apply. I would think until the issue is legally resolved, the default should be on the side of caution.
Since Commons requires all images to be free in its county of origin, and the Polish National bank is claiming a copyright (even if it's right is yet to be determined), the images should be deleted.--ARTEST4ECHO talk 19:20, 4 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted Jcb (talk) 13:43, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Restored: 1946 notes, as per [5]. Yann (talk) 06:14, 7 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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