File talk:Languages of Europe.png

See also

• Inaccurate
• Extremly wrong
• Good map but many errors

Notes to Sources and Inaccuracies

1. The author gave the following sources for all of his maps, see [1] all in German. 2. The original map is supposed to show 1990 3. The author was biased towards German and minority languages. --Alternative Transport (talk) 21:44, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Hilfreiches „Übersetzungs-Büro“

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

Quellennachweise für von mir erstellten oder bearbeiteten Artikel:

allgemeine Nachschlagewerke:

• Der Große Brockhaus 1938 (Bd. 1-4)
• Weltgeschichte A bis Z (Fackelverlag, 1968)
• Großes Universal-Lexikon (Corvius-Verlag Berlin, 1975)
• Großes Handlexikon in Farbe (Bertelsmann-Verlag, 1979)
• Neues Lexikon in Farbe (Zweiburgen Verlag, 1985)
• Der Fischer Weltalmanach 1994 (Fischer-Taschenbuch-Verlag, 1993)
• Diercke Länder-Lexikon (Westermann-Verlag, 1999)
• Bertelsmann Universal-Lexikon (Bertelsmann-Verlag, 2001)
• Der Fischer Weltalmanach 2004 (Fischer-Taschenbuch-Verlag, 2003)

Eurasische Völkerkunde (Turkvölker und andere Minderheiten Rußlands):

• Zentralasien. (Fischer-Weltgeschichte Bd. 16, 1966)
• Stalins Völkermord, Wolgadeutsche – Krimtataren – Kaukasier (Robert Conquest, 1974)
• Volk aus 100 Nationalitäten (Révész László, 1980)
• Die Völker der Sowjetunion (Rudolf A. Mark, 1989)
• Eine Weltmacht zerbricht – Nationalitäten und Religionen in der UdSSR (Ernst Stöting, 1990)
• Pulverfaß Sowjetunion. Der Nationalitätenkonflikt und seine Ursachen (Eberhard Beckherrn, 1990)
• Politisches Lexikon GUS (Roland Götz/Uwe Halbach, 1992)
• Die frühen Türken in Zentralasien (Wolfgang Ekkehard Scharlipp, 1992)
• Die Völker der ehemaligen Sowjetunion (Rudolf A. Mark, 1992)
• Aktuelle Situationen in den Turkrepubliken (Zentrum für Türkeistudien [Hrsg.], 1994)
• Die Geschichte des Osmanischen Reiches – Das Imperium der Sultane (Wolfgang Gust, 1995)
• Ethnische Minderheiten in Europa (Klemens Ludwig, 1995)
• Lexikon der Weltbevölkerung (Heinz-Gerhard Zimpel, 2000)

Durchgesichtete Atlanten bei der Herstellung der Darstellungskarten:

• Geographischer Atlas zur Vaterlandskunde an den österreichischen Mittelschulen (Prof. Dr. Rudolf Rothaug, 1910)
• Westermann Weltatlas (Westermann-Verlag, 1928)
• Atlantis Weltatlas (Paul List Verlag, 1984)
• Der große Atlas zur Weltgeschichte (Orbis Verlag, 1990)
• Atlas zur Weltgeschichte (Weltbild Verlag, 1998)
• Atlas der Weltreiche. Von 3000 vor Christus bis zum 20. Jahrhundert (Karen Farrington, 2002)
• Diercke Weltatlas (Westermann-Verlag, 2002)

West- und Osteuropa:

• Bildatlas östliches Europa (Südwest-Verlag, 1990)

Deutsche Geschichte:

• Atlas zur Zeitgeschichte: Europa im 20. Jahrhundert (Manfred Scheuch, 1992)
• Historischer Atlas Deutschland (Manfred Scheuch, 1997)
• Deutschlands Gebietsverluste 1919-1945. Ein Handbuch und Atlas (Manfred Weinhold, 1999)

Alte Steppenreiche:

• Illustrierte Weltgeschichte (Gefion-Verlag, Jahr nicht mehr lesbar)
• LUX Historischer Bildatlas (Verlag Sebastian Lux, 19??)
• Dschingis Khan und seine Erben. Das Weltreich der Mongolen (Sonderband zur Ausstellung in Bonn und München 2005/2006)
• Dschinghis Khan. Eroberer – Stammesfürst – Vordenker (Hans Leicht [Hrsg.], 2002)

Schriftgeschichte:

• Das Buch der Schrift (Carl Faulmann, 1880)
• Die Schrift (Hans Jensen, 1969)

Sprachen:

• Deutsche Literaturgeschichte. Von den Anfängen bis zur Gegenwart (Fritz Martini, 1951)
• Fischer Lexikon Sprachen (Heinz F. Wendt, 1961)
• Abenteuer Sprache. Ein Streifzug durch die Sprachen der Erde (Hans Joachim Störig, 1991)
• Metzler Lexikon Sprache (Helmut Glück [Hrsg.], 1993)
• Die Entwicklung neuer germanischer Kultursprachen seit 1800 (Heinz Kloos, 1978)
• Die germanischen Sprachen. Ihre Geschichte in Grundzügen (Claus Jürgen Hutterer, 1975)
• Philologia Turciacae Fundamenta (Wiesbaden, 1959)

Inaccurate

See Image talk:Sprachen Europas 1990.png. 203.158.89.10 10:47, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

• This is widely inaccurate. I've lived in 2 border regions of France marked as "speaking something else than French" on this map, and this is completely absurd. Ozh 16:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

• This map contains several mistakes -- e. g. some areas of the Czech republic are shown as "completely german", although there is no municipality or settlement with german majority in the Czech republic. The same for german majority shown in cental Slovakia -- there is no municipality or settlement with german majority in Slovakia (since cca 1946).

--88.102.58.13 11:00, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

• I also think this map is wrong. There is a map available at wikipedia, showing the real spread of the german language in Central Europe very well. For the areas in Poland, France, Slovakia and the Czech Republik we are talking about, these areas marked correctly as german as a Minority Language (light blue color in the map: Deutsche Minderheitensprache). See: http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Sprachwariet%C3%A4ten_Deutsch.PNG&filetimestamp=20081206234546

There are indeed numerous inaccuracies in this map. The map wants to depict the situation today. Today there are no German-speaking areas in the Czech republic any more. The majority of the population in Lorraine and Alsace meanwhile speaks French and not German. There is no larger Estonian minority in Latvia, there is no larger Georgian-speaking minority in Aserbaijan (the reverse is true), the borders of the Catalan-speaking area are grossly inaccurate (especially in Roussillon, France), the Gaelic area in Scotland is certainly overestimated, the Romansh area in Friaul ist inaccurate, the area of the Hungarian minority in southern Slovakia is inaccurate, Bulgarian minorities in Romania are inaccurate, people in the former Finnish part of Karelia are mainly Russians today, etc. etc.
This map does not fulfill the standards of an Encyclopedia! --Furfur, 2-Aug-2008, 15:19 CEST

• I want to add that this absurd map shows a color for « Catalan and Franco-Provençal », as if the regions are combined or overlap. They absolutely do not. Also Franco-Provençal is not indicated in Aosta Autonomous Region (northwest Italy) where it is protected by at least three laws, an enclave in Puglia, nor Valais (southest Switzerland) where it is spoken in rural areas. (The historical region of this language includes east central France and much of western Switzerland, as well.) Charvex (talk) 21:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

• I change the map because there were a big mistake. "Franco-provençal" is so called "arpitan" and it is spoken in Lyon and in Switzerland. Provençal is a old name of "Occitan" and it's a language near "Catalan".

You can for exemple read : this article

and this chapter

Good bye,

--Paul Munhoven (talk) 16:36, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

This map is very misleading - for instance it gives the impression that people in Brittany only speaks Breton while they obviously mainly speak French. I'm sure it's the same for the regional languages in Spain and other countries. I'm going to remove the map from the Outline of Europe article as it shouldn't be used at all until it's fixed. WikiLaurent (talk) 10:39, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

 

Catalan-Occitan

This Map is inaccurate in the limits of the Catalan language. It adds an area between Teruel and Cuenca where Catalan/Valencian neves has been spoken, while removes most of the south of Valencia, where Catalan/Valencian is spoken. --Coentor (talk) 19:12, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

What is the apparently turkic language in Ukraine, Poland, Belarus, and Lithuania? How was this made??

Ignoring the many ideological arguments about representing areas with shifting linguistic demographics (shifts away from regional languages/dialects) minority language representation/bilingual representation (different versions bias towards minority and local bilingualism, or bias towards the over-riding official language) and the general disagreement over what time period this map is representing... What it that yellow brown (ie Turkic or maybe Celtic?) language in north-eastern Europe? Previous versions had it in Lithuania and north Zakarpattia, and the most 'recent' version has spread it along the Polish-Belarussian and Lithuanian-Belarussian borders, and into the interior of Poland? I can find no support anywhere for what this is trying to refer to, but I could have missed something. My best guess for the spots in Ukraine and Lithuania were an attempt to represent large minority populations in one of the earliest versions, that got sort of lost in the various transitions made due to disagreements in the above ideological arguments over how to simplify multilingual areas, fuzzy dialect/linguistic distinctions, shifting demographics and legal linguistic recognition into discrete categorizations that will inevitably be massively incorrect no matter what choices are made. Anyone have any ideas?

Looking at other changes, they seem to be limited to the expansion of French, West-Slavic and Russian languages, including assigning Brussels as Dutch, merging Polish with dialects/languages like Silesian, the removal of minority German communities in Chechia, Slovakia & Poland, as well as the general erasure of minority languages in Russia. Some of these changes were likely genuine fixes, or attempts to update the map (unevenly, inconsistently, and likely also biasedly?) while some are ideological choices that are just different than the previous creators, such as the previous bias towards minority languages in areas of mixed and transitioning zones, some apparent weight given to legal recognition/official status, and the choice to take a hard stance on the distinctness of Silesian, etc. Others likely come from biased perceptions or data (which skew towards dominant languages) or perhaps some intentional agenda?

Regardless, without some clarifications on choices made (criteria for colouring mixed/bilingual/transitioning areas, choices on when to differentiate things as either dialects or languages, the use of legal recognition, ...) and some sources to back up the colouring made after those choices are clarified, I honestly can't see this file being any use to anyone. At the very least a history of inconsistent choices has led it to a state of garbled un-usability. I think it should probably be deleted or in some other way removed from use. Naturalnumber (talk) 08:55, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Looking at the deletion request made previously, it seems the biggest reasons it wasn't deleted were that it was never clearly articulated how the graphic was flawed, and that it was used in multiple projects. It is currently used only in two actual articles, and only in a very generic way (thus easily replaced with one of the many other such graphics that have been made by others) while also showing up connected to a variety of users and discussions on linguistic maps. As for the first issue, I believe I have articulated several ways (above) in which the document is at best inconsistent and at worst outright wrong. Naturalnumber (talk) 09:07, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

It should also probably be noted that inexplicable changes discussed above were made after the last deletion request. Naturalnumber (talk) 09:14, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Agreed to all criticism; after a quick glance I can only assume that in as many places as possible, the most prominent minority languages were chosen over majority languages. See the sorbish ("Polish") area in Saxony; the "German" area in Alsace, the various "Celtic" areas in Bretagne and Ireland, etc. etc. The map author must be a huuuge troll. --Enyavar (talk) 14:31, 29 August 2022 (UTC)