Dual-threat quarterback is currently a football good article nominee. Nominated by Soulbust (talk) at 23:30, 29 December 2023 (UTC) An editor has indicated a willingness to review the article in accordance with the good article criteria. Further reviews are welcome from any editor who has not contributed significantly to this article (or nominated it), and can be added to the review page, but the decision whether or not to list the article as a good article should be left to the first reviewer. Short description: Quarterback in gridiron football capable of running and passing effectively |
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Image in lead paragraph
editSo, for the (I believe) 3rd time now, KHLRookie has reverted the image in the lead paragraph to this image of John Elway, with the caption, John Elway was the most successful-dual threat QB, appearing in 5 Super Bowls and holds the record of most rushing TDs by any quarterback in the finals. Although I originally favored this image of Michael Vick, I believe an image of Andy Dalton at TCU is the better option over the Elway image (and the Vick image). The caption I provided for the Dalton image is Quarterback Andy Dalton pictured running during a game
My reasoning behind why the Dalton image is more relevant for the lead article than the Elway image/caption:
- It visualizes the article better, because in the Dalton image it is showing a quarterback actually displaying the dual-threat of running, on top of their already expected threat of passing. The Elway image does not, and it is of a lower resolution quality.
- The caption is more neutral and more straightforward. The Elway caption is clearly biased and is misleading. It's misleading because it states Elway was the most successful-dual threat QB. But that is clearly debatable. Sure, in terms of postseason success, he was more successful than Michael Vick (1st in rushing yards for a QB) or Steve Young (1st in rushing TDs for QB), but obviously from a statistical standpoint, Vick and Young have better rushing stats. Additionally, Elway ranks 7th in rushing yards for QB, and if Cam Newton scores 1 more rushing TD, Elway would be outside of the top 10 in the rushing TDs category.
- The Elway caption tries to display Elway as some sort of poster boy of the dual-threat QB, where as the Dalton caption is a neutral, straightforward "here's a QB being a dual-threat by running" type of deal.
Due to the consistent reverting of the Vick image and later the more compromising Dalton image, I suggest we have an official vote on which image should be the lead image of this article. While it would be more relevant to choose between Dalton or Elway, I don't see why we can't include other images in this vote. Soulbust (talk) 04:23, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
- I vote Dalton per above Soulbust (talk) 04:23, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
- I vote Dalton per above, anything but the Elway one, I mean the editor is obviously being biased, cmon man lol very few people think of Elway when they think of a dual-threat qb. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 02:40, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
Dalton isn't considered a dual threat, like Vick, Luck, Elway and the others. He's a short yardage TD hawk. Also not every picture has to be a b scrambling KHLrookie (talk) 13:26, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
- True that Dalton isn't considered a dual-threat. However, Elway is not the poster boy for dual-threat QBs like how your caption is portraying him. And also, would you not agree that the first image a reader sees on this article should be of a QB running? Seeing how it is, in fact, an article based around dual-threat (or running) QBs? The Dalton image is neutral in that, yes he isn't a dual-threat QB, but the image itself is displaying what a dual-threat QB can do: which is run with the ball aside from just throwing it. Soulbust (talk) 04:41, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
- DUAL threat = passing AND running. Elway was the most successful balancing the 2. Put on an elway running a ball image or leave it. we have enough running qb pics as it is. running isn't the only thing dual threat qbs do. KHLrookie (talk) 19:05, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
- A standard QB passes. A dual-threat passes and runs. Therefore, running is more associated with dual-threats than just simply passing. Either way, the current image of Elway doesn't feature him passing nor running. Also, in regards to Elway being the most successful balancing of passing and running, well, that's an opinion. There is no credible source presented or known of that states that he is. Statistics could provide an argument for Steve Young or Aaron Rodgers over Elway. Regardless, that's an opinion, and on Wikipedia, we have to be objective. So the Dalton image works fine. Soulbust (talk) 03:25, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
External links modified
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List of "current NFL dual-threat QBs" in introduction
editI think we should have a better definition of which NFL quarterbacks should be mentioned as "current NFL quarterbacks considered to be dual-threat", as it has been up to debate. Too often, I've seen QBs such as Colin Kaepernick, Andy Dalton, Tyrod Taylor, Aaron Rodgers, and Andrew Luck get listed and removed repeatedly from the list, often to heated arguments and confrontations.
My understanding of this list is current or recent NFL starters who meet the criteria of a "dual-threat" quarterback and is active in the league. I believe the second paragraph mentions that they typically rush for over 300 yards per season. Hence, why I see Kaepernick (free agent) and Dalton (rushes for less than 300 yards per year on average) not making it on the list. We shouldn't let personal bias for or against a player add or remove them from the list.
I propose these conditions for a quarterback being this list:
- Must be an active player or starter for an NFL team
- Must rush for 300 or more yards per year on average for a 16-game season (or around 20 yards per game)
- Must have decent passing statistics to go along with his rushing statistics (average over 2000 yards per year over 16 game season, for example)
- Must have credible sources that describe him as a "dual-threat" quarterback
Or we could simply use these conditions:
- Must be an active NFL starter or player
- Must "have the ability to beat an opponent through passing or rushing"[1][2]
- Must have credible sources that back up the quarterback in question fitting the above description
What do you guys think? —WuTang94(user talk) 19:45, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Mahomes/Lamar image
edit@Gonzo fan2007: and @BubbaDaAmogus: Lamar image serves better (imo) in the section about the late 2010s, as Lamar is definitely considered one of if not the best dual-threat of that era. And in particular, the Mahomes images (seen in this revision) serve as good example images of a pass vs. a rush from the same QB. And they worked really well being from the same game, but the biggest factor in me placing those images was how high-quality the actual images are. The Lamar rushing image, for example, has some blurring, that the Mahomes images simply don't have. For this I'm strongly considering re-implementing them as the lede images. Again, the Lamar rush one also works really well later on in the body of the article. I currently have this article nominated for GA status though, so I'll probably just wait to see what the GA reviewer says.
Bubba, I am unsure of your logic calling Mahomes "one of the best of this time" and "a slightly above average QB" in the same comment, but the Mahomes image you replaced with the Josh Allen image was not placed there because anyone was "glazing" Mahomes. Would implore you to assume good faith, because in truth it just seems Gonzo switched out the Lamar image that was formerly used in the late 2010s section (now used in the lede) for the Mahomes image you replaced (see link to previous revision above).
This sort of arguing over which QB is better or whatever is exactly why I for a long time was cool with a Navy QB rushing being the lede image (see this revision). But after noticing the high-quality images of Mahomes vs. Washington, I placed those images in the lede last February. Soulbust (talk) 04:36, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
- Also, the "quickly emerged as an effective dual-threat quarterback when he began playing in the late 2010s." caption was just something I originally included as the caption to the Lamar rush image that Gonzo kept just replacing Lamar's name with Mahomes' in the caption, as you did when replacing Mahomes' with Josh Allen's. Soulbust (talk) 04:39, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
- Hi, I don't have a strong feeling either way. From a historic or modern perspective though, I just don't view Mahomes as a great example of a dual threat QB. He is kind of like Aaron Rodgers in the first 10 years of his career: elusive, able to scramble, but almost no designed runs other than a surprise to throw the defense off guard. Lamar is the shining example of a dual threat QB, one who can run or pass effectively from play to play. Considering he is going to (likely) have the QB rushing record next season, while also passing so effectively, it just made sense to highlight him over a more protypical pocket passer like Mahomes. As a reader, I was truly surprised to see Mahomes at the top of the page highlighted as the best example of a dual threat QB, regardless of photi quality. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 18:11, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
- Yes when I originally switched out the Navy QB for images of Mahomes, I was hoping there were higher-quality images of Lamar available because I agree, he is probably the most A1 example of a dual-threat. No real strong feeling from me either way, though I still felt it wouldn't hurt to make my thought process clear. Soulbust (talk) 07:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- Hi, I don't have a strong feeling either way. From a historic or modern perspective though, I just don't view Mahomes as a great example of a dual threat QB. He is kind of like Aaron Rodgers in the first 10 years of his career: elusive, able to scramble, but almost no designed runs other than a surprise to throw the defense off guard. Lamar is the shining example of a dual threat QB, one who can run or pass effectively from play to play. Considering he is going to (likely) have the QB rushing record next season, while also passing so effectively, it just made sense to highlight him over a more protypical pocket passer like Mahomes. As a reader, I was truly surprised to see Mahomes at the top of the page highlighted as the best example of a dual threat QB, regardless of photi quality. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 18:11, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
GA Review
editGA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Dual-threat quarterback/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Nominator: Soulbust (talk · contribs) 23:30, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
Reviewer: Kimikel (talk · contribs)
Hello, I'm going to be doing this review as part of the July GA backlog drive. It should take me no longer than a week. Kimikel (talk) 03:32, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Soulbust: Below is the first half of my review. I'm going to go through the sources tomorrow. If you think you can address all of these issues within the next 7 days or so let me know; if not, I'll close the review, and you can leave a message on my talk page whenever they are finished, and I promise I'll do a second review. Regardless, just let me know what you think, or if you have any questions - Kimikel (talk) 23:03, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Also just let me know if you need more time. Kimikel (talk) 23:12, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Well-written
editLead section
edit- The main issue with the lead section is that it contains a lot of information that is not cited or mentioned anywhere else in the article. Almost the entire second paragraph of the lead is completely unrelated to anything else in the article, as the article pretty much only talks about NFL QBs and not college QBs. You ought to go through and either remove everything from the lead that isn't in the actual article or add all of them into the article itself.
- Over the next few days, I will see what I find (or if I can find) information regarding Dual-threats in college and in the CFL. If I can't find anything perhaps we should maybe rename this article as "Dual-threat quarterbacks in the NFL" and have Dual-threat quarterback be a more broad article akin to Game manager or System quarterback, or perhaps as a redirect to Quarterback#Dual-threat quarterbacks. Though, given the topic I think I will be able to find information regarding dual-threats in college/the CFL. Soulbust (talk) 01:39, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Pre-modern era
edit- "as such the" > as such, the
- "if not more likely"> if not more, likely
- "However, they would" > They would
- "as coaches adopted new strategies to take advantage of players with unique physical attributes and skills — all in the name of trying to gain an edge on their opponents." > I feel as though this quote is not necessary and this info could be summarized.
- Done the first 4 bullets have been addressed. I tweaked the quote to be more summarizing in nature. Soulbust (talk) 23:20, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- "As a result, quarterbacks..." > needs citation
Early history
edit- "The next decade, however," > The next decade
- "Tarkenton adds by describing the reaction to his scrambling at the time, "It was not a skill set that was embraced. Plenty of people mocked it, and the rest wrote it off."" > Tarkenton described scrambling as "not a skill set that was embraced. Plenty of people mocked it, and the rest wrote it off.
- "—in which he became the first quarterback to pass for over 2,000 yards and rush for over 500 yards in the same season—"> replace dashes with commas
- "as he logged" > logging
- "wild schemes, before" > unusual schemes for him before
- "leading to his" > which led to his
- "539 yards, on a team" > 539 yards
- "which was held" > which stood
Done Except for 539 yards bullet. the ", on a team" section is necessary here since it is referring to how the Patriots team itself also set a record. Unless you would suggest for that to be removed. Soulbust (talk) 23:26, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Soulbust My mistake, for that one I just meant to remove the comma so it read "539 yards on a team", sorry Kimikel (talk) 01:46, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Ah gotcha. Fixed that one now then. Soulbust (talk) 02:15, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Increased frequency
edit- "writes that, although," > wrote that although
- "by a QB but make no mistake about it, if you are" > by a QB...if you are
- "adding that, Young," > adding that Young
- "writes, "True, Steve Young" > wrote that "Steve Young
- "in which Griffin III would" > who would
- " plays -- not" plays—not
- "Kordell Stewart," > remove comma
- "5 Super Bowls" > five Super Bowls
Done Though I tweaked the CraveOnline quote about Young beyond your suggestions. I think it has a bit of a better flow this way, but let me know. Soulbust (talk) 23:35, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Michael Vick effect
edit- "John Elway" > Elway
- "McNabb became joined" > McNabb joined
- "as Ray Buchanan stated" > with Ray Buchanan stating
- mobile right now," > mobile right now";
- "Michael Vick, and in addition to that, McNabb also mentored Vick" Michael Vick; he also mentored Vick
- "Vick also served" > Vick served
- "by Atlanta Falcons" > by the Atlanta Falcons
Done and I did some extra tweaking to McNabb's quote/response to Buchanan. Also did tweaking on his connection to Vick Soulbust (talk) 23:43, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Newfound implementations
edit- "labeled, "symbolic" > labeled "symbolic
- "This status came" > This came
Done Soulbust (talk) 23:45, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Introduction of RPO
edit- "have continued to rise" > continued to rise
- combine last two paragraphs, as they're both pretty small by themselves.
Done Soulbust (talk) 23:47, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Criticism
edit- See Wikipedia:Criticism, I think this section should be rolled into the previous one, with a header like "Racial connotation"
- "quarterbacks while still" > quarterbacks, while still
Broad
edit- This article is very NFL-centric and doesn't really make any reference to dual threat QBs at the college level, or in the CFL.
Neutral
edit- No issues with neutrality
Images
edit- Images fine
Stable
edit- Stable
Verifiable: Source spotcheck
edit- 22: Verified for the Ravens record. However, none of the Grogan career stuff is mentioned in here, so all of the facts about Grogan are unsourced. New source should be introduced here that corroborates the facts about Grogan.
- 30: Verified
- 58: Verified
- 70: Verified
- 84: Verified
- Done Fixed missing authors Soulbust (talk) 22:00, 7 August 2024 (UTC)