Talk:Kamala Harris

The consensus version

I don't know where I can add a message requesting an edit to Kamala's wiki page, but I would like one of the mods to add a hyperlink to the 2010 California Attorney General's election that is in the second paragraph: "Born in Oakland, California, Harris graduated from Howard University and the University of California, Hastings College of the Law. She began her career in the Alameda County District Attorney's Office, before being recruited to the San Francisco District Attorney's Office and later the City Attorney of San Francisco's office. In 2003, she was elected district attorney of San Francisco. She was elected Attorney General of California in 2010 and re-elected in 2014. Can you link 2010 to the 2010 Attorney General's election? Thanks, Rhein Amacher, Tue May 10th 8:01 PM PST. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhein Amacher (talk • contribs) 03:01, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

The consensus version for describing KH's achievement is the first female vice president of the US, the first African-American, and the first Asian-American. I'm on vacation until mid-February 2021. Admins valereee, MelanieN, Drmies, Muboshgu please note and restore; otherwise, the "ethnic" sub-nationalists and trolls will have a field day. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:20, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I concur this is the consensus version and I have restored it. "First female" is the first sentence since it is the most reported and most historic. "First African-American and first Asian-American" is the second sentence. Terms like South Asian-American, Jamaican-American, and (per the one I just replaced) Caribbean-American and should not be added without a new discussion and a new consensus. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:00, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

The edits I made did not contradict the overall achievement of Harris being the "First African-American and first Asian-American" Vice President, it simply provided further accurate and separate cited detail regards her own personal family's ancestry. Though I can see the FAQ, I do Respectfully request that someone please guide me to where consensus was actually reached not to include this information. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 17:27, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Bodney, archives, linked at top of page. —valereee (talk) 18:33, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I was unable to spot the RfC in the archives, I now have thanks (maybe a simple specific wiki-link RfC: Should Kamala Harris be described as 'African American' in the lead? to similar previous archived discussions would quickly deal unknowing editors like me in future :) Thanks anyway. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 19:58, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

And Bodney, the additional information about her ancestry is included in the body of the article, just not in the lead. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:51, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, the lead reflects the article, but I do agree that not everything can or should be in the lead, especially when an article is likely to be extensive based on her own personal biography. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 19:58, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Should we tweak the FAQ? It says South Asian American throughout, which could be confusing. —valereee (talk) 17:14, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I think it should simply be "Asian American". I believe that is what the sources predominantly say. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:32, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

They say Asian-American specifically in reference to being vice president. In that position, she is not only the first South Asian, she is the first Asian. We say South Asian for other positions, such as senator where she was the first South Asian but not the first Asian. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:51, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

If one goes far enough back, you will discover the consensus was South Asian-American. Then Sen. Harris was picked by VP Biden to be the VP nominee, and a large number of editors were attracted to this page. South Asian-American is how Sen. Harris identifies, and that is what should matter. Rklahn (talk) 07:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

I believe we had consensus that the largest group should be used for the "firsts", so rather than first South Asian-American VP-elect, first Asian American was what we went with. For the senate, first South Asian-American. My question was only whether that needed to be further explained in the FAQs. Not that anyone reads them, but it's good to document what current consensus is. —valereee (talk) 11:50, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Im not sure such a consensus existed, but I am also not the Oracle of consensus. That begin said, yes, there is value in documenting what the current consensus is. I think it moves us closer to consensus having some of the attributes of Stare decisis. I think that this idea floating around Wikipedia that consensus can be achieved, and in the next moment ignored, counterproductive. Rklahn (talk) 14:51, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Rklahn, I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're getting at with that final sentence. —valereee (talk) 15:28, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Please tweak the FAQ to reflect her new status. Yes, it should be the first female, first African-American, and first Asian-American, in that order. In my view, Af-Ams takes precedence over As-Ams in the context of the US, not only because they go back further in this history of the US (indeed on average they precede even European Americans), but also because they have played a major role in the creation of the American ethos. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:51, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

PS She is and will remain the second female African-American senator and the first South Asian American (senator) in US history. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:13, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler, can you clarify what you mean by new status? —valereee (talk) 21:06, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Valereee, The point Im getting at is that true consensus on Wikipedia is illusory. On this very page, on this very subject, I worked hard with a group of Editors to achieve a consensus, which we did. Out in the open and on these Talk pages. Less than a week later, that consensus was ignored. So, any move that gets us closer to consensus meaning something is welcome to me. Rklahn (talk) 21:01, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Rklahn, diffs please? I'm still not following. —valereee (talk) 21:05, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

By new status I meant from senator to VP-nominee (and VP-elect and eventually VP). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:46, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Valereee I cant even find the consensus Im referring to in the Talk Archive. Im reasonably sure it happened before the Talk pages were archived at all, so maybe it got lost in the shuffle. I think at this point the best move for me is to drop the point, which is minor anyways, and to say that I support efforts to document the consensus, whatever it is. Rklahn (talk) 22:09, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

please read the FAQ above--RegentsPark (comment) 13:55, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

First African American is disingenuous (at the very least) to say she is African American. Her father was Jamaican...how is this a qualifier for African American inclusion? The last I checked Jamaica was in the Caribbean and not on the continent of Africa. My asking this question and pointing out the obvious probably makes me a racist and surely a half dozen other socially stigmatizing labels. Though an answer would be appreciated. Signed an unimportant IP address editor.2600:1700:7610:41E0:C5FD:ED64:EB06:3ADA (talk) 22:58, 16 December 2020 (UTC) How do you think the Afro-Jamaicans wound up in Jamaica? Magic? Volunteer Marek 23:04, 16 December 2020 (UTC) Read the FAQ at the top of the page. This has been answered countless times already. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:19, 16 December 2020 (UTC) Wow! what a friendly and courteous answer from a arrogant and aggressive editor. I asked a question and I get sarcasm. Though in your response you do agree with me and yourself call her Afro-Jamaican and not African-American...hmm...interesting...don't ya think? This is probably why this article and many others do not get improved and only sink deeper into the abyss. The second response was much friendlier and appreciated. Thank you. Though I still find it inaccurate and barring a family tree likely inaccurate to be described as it is. Wouldn't one of the terms Black Caribbean, Afro or Black West Indian or Afro or Black Antillean or Afro-Jamaican (as the first respondent used) to be more accurate in describing her ancestry seeing as no documentation or family tree is provided or cited within the article itself. I would think an encyclopedia should be as factual and reference filled before taking a large leap (of faith with assumption) such as this article has done. Thank you and have a blessed day. 2600:1700:7610:41E0:64D8:8847:54E7:E855 (talk) 09:57, 17 December 2020 (UTC) I am Australian and only drop in here occasionally. To answer the comments above, her father was Afro-Jamaican. As she is American, that makes her both Afro-American and Jamaican-American. In Australia, we have politicians who were child immigrants from Malaysia, but they are both Malaysian-Australian and Chinese-Australian. As with many people, if you look at enough generations, you find all sorts of interesting history. --Scott Davis Talk 10:37, 17 December 2020 (UTC) This is well covered ground. Countless editors have spent a long time discussing this, and 2600:1700:7610:41E0:64D8:8847:54E7:E855, you have brought nothing new to the conversation, and ask the same questions countless editors have asked. Please take the time to cover the discussions in the archives. And what the heck? Ill repeat this too. You are confusing race with ethnicity. Race is grouping based on society's view. Ethnicity is grouping based on how people see themselves in common with others. Ms. Harris race is unimportant. Her ethnicity is paramount. She is African-American and South Asian-American. Rklahn (talk) 14:04, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

One issue that deserves a lot more attention in this article is her relationship with Willie Brown. While a 29-year-old deputy district attorney, Harris had an affair with then 60-year leader of the California legislature Willie Brown. While they were dating, Brown appointed Harris to two paid commission posts, and effectively jump-started her political career. As she would likely never have had a political career otherwise, an item of this significance should be prominently mentioned, perhaps in the lede. Certainly it deserves more than part of a sentence buried deep within the article. Vinny Gambino (talk) 22:24, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

We have discussed the Willie Brown connection many times, and seemed to reach a consensus that presents the facts in a balanced encyclopedic way with an appropriate amount of weight. That being said, if you have a proposed edit, let's talk about it. Rklahn (talk) 22:43, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

I also have a few of questions regarding Harris' past employment history, specifically her being hired as Alameda county Deputy DA in 1990 (she was 26-years-old). Two of the requirements for that job is almost always to have clerked for a judge and have experience as an attorney in private practice or as a Deputy DA. Harris had neither. In fact, she never had a job until she was given her Deputy DA job. It should be noted in the article, in my opinion, that she had a resume that should have precluded her from getting that job. She claims to have gotten "involved" with Willie Brown in 1994. Well, the lack of a worthy or notable resume seems to indicate someone - someone of considerable influence - pulled strings to get her that Deputy DA job in 1990. Willie Brown was certainly someone who at that time, being Speaker of the CA Assembly, could have arranged her employment as a Deputy DA in Alameda county. Alameda county was in his district at that time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:9000:6201:a79b:2913:a3bc:f1d3:c561 (talk)

Your opinion of the matter has no bearing whatsoever on a Wikipedia article. If you have an actual suggestion of an addition to an article, then by all means produce one, sourced to a reliable source. Zaathras (talk) 04:26, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't think the requirements are that high. See for example Indeed's list of open positions.[1] IIRC, there was little interest among graduates to work for the county DA. In any case, you would need a source that said their was something exceptional about this. Otherwise, it's just a case of a law grad getting an entry level job that paid below average. TFD (talk) 20:13, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 July 2024

Kamala Harris is not African American. Her father is Jamaican-American per the same Wikipedia page that refers to her heritage incorrectly as African. I’m sure she is proud of her Caribbean and Indian heritage. 146.113.207.58 (talk) 18:18, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

•  Not done: Folks from the West Indians can identify as African American. See the FAQ at the top of this page. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:23, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 July 2024

Kamala Harris is only technically African American. She is mostly from Indian decent and was raised by a Hindu mother. Her grandfather was a slave owner in Jamaica. 2601:7C0:CC01:74A0:E964:957F:AC56:74DD (talk) 13:23, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Discused, and rejected many times. Slatersteven (talk) 13:25, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Slatersteven – Could you link to the discussion. Seems to me if Harris was white this would be front page news. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:28, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Check the talk page archives and then read the FAQ. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:32, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

The archived discussions lend themselves primarily to identification issues. There is one contention, however, that the idea of Harris' grandfather being a slave owner lacks weight, which of course is debatable in terms of someone's biography, and that this idea is not covered in secondary sources. If this latter point is actually true that would be a reason to not include, as all statements must be reliably sourced. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:17, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

A quick search reveals that there are numerous sources that cover the issue. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:26, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Which say it was a great-great-great-grandfather, but unproven. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:36, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 July 2024

Under the section "Notes", comment d is not substantiated, and is likely false. Please add Delhatch (talk) 23:14, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done The footnote was originally text within the same paragraph, attached to the references at the end. Largely it is somebody's OR or Synth starting from those references. So I just deleted it. -- M.boli (talk) 02:58, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Presidential Nomination

If I'm not mistaken, Joe Biden just nominated her as his successor. I take it someone with permissions will make this change? SirShaunIV (talk) 18:24, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

@SirShaunIV Joe Biden has nominated her HOWEVER the caucus has not. Democrats held primaries to nominate Biden. He can't just do that. Heddingite (talk) 18:40, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Biden endorsed her. He doesn't control the delegates other than to release them from being bound to him. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:43, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I know, but having been named as his endorsement is noteworthy. Does it not belong on the page? SirShaunIV (talk) 18:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I know, but having been named as his endorsement is noteworthy. Does it not belong on the page? SirShaunIV (talk) 18:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Not African America

Her mother is Indian, her father is Jamican. She is not African-American as India is not part of Africa nor is Jamica! 72.255.169.73 (talk) 18:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

See the FAQ near the top of the page. Americans from the West Indies (including Jamaica) can identify as African-American. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:01, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

The FAQ is malformed. 202.89.148.53 (talk) 01:35, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Noting these definitions from Wiktionary:

African-American

1. A member of an ethnic group consisting of Americans of black African descent.

Indian-American

1. An American with South Asian ancestry or extraction.

See also WP:COMMONTERM, African Americans, & Indian Americans. If you still have questions about this, perhaps read the WP:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue essay. Peaceray (talk) 02:20, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

The last I checked, 90% of Jamaicans are of African descent. Indeed, the article states Kamala Harris's Jamaican American father, Donald J. Harris, is of Afro-Jamaican ancestry. Peaceray (talk) 02:25, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Punctuation in Early Paragraph

The sentence that reads "Following the withdrawal of Joe Biden from the 2024 presidential election, Kamala Harris began her campaign for president, if elected, Harris would become the first woman and the first Asian President of the United States." should read "Following the withdrawal of Joe Biden from the 2024 presidential election, Kamala Harris began her campaign for president; if elected, Harris would become the first woman and the first Asian President of the United States."; alternatively, this sentence can be split in two as follows: "Following the withdrawal of Joe Biden from the 2024 presidential election, Kamala Harris began her campaign for president. If elected, Harris would become the first woman and the first Asian President of the United States." 2601:42:1:3FF0:E9AF:A37D:51F:8CFB (talk) 19:01, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

 Already done --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 23:33, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 July 2024

Following Biden's withdrawal from the 2024 presidential election, he endorsed Harris to be his successor.[11] If elected, Harris would become the first woman and the first Asian AMERICAN President of the United States. 81.107.122.74 (talk) 19:02, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done – Muboshgu (talk) 19:05, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 July 2024 (2)

mention how Harris is the presumptive nominee for the democratic nomination, after a quasi-endorsement from the incumbent President Biden, who has withdrawn 2804:214:86D8:B06E:1:0:B53D:A415 (talk) 19:11, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Well, she does not have the needed delegates at this point. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:14, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, she has not yet announced that she is running, although that is likely to come soon. Cullen328 (talk) 19:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:19, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

IPA pronounciation please, where is the stress/accent on her name.

jeebus as a user i want to know how to pronounce her first name, ipa is standard for lots of other articles, i'd like to see it for this cuz i've heard various pronunciations of kamala 2600:1011:B137:8DDB:E9A9:5437:6130:B441 (talk) 21:01, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

The IPA pronunciation is in footnote A, directly after her name in the first sentence of the article --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 23:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Need uppdaterad due to the fact Kamala is running for president

Kamala Harris has anounced that she is running for president of the USA, and would like to be nominated as of 2021-07-21. https://x.kamalaharris. Needs to be updated but her wikipedia page is ofcource protected 84.217.179.112 (talk) 21:28, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

It's been updated. What is out of date? – Muboshgu (talk) 21:31, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 July 2024 (3)

When it says "as well as the first African-American and first Asian-American vice president.", change African-American to Jamaican-American as Kamala Harris's father is from Jamaica and not Africa Pyrokissr (talk) 22:41, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

As well as any other text that labels her African-American Pyrokissr (talk) 22:43, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: @Pyrokissr: See Q1 at the top of this page. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 23:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

African American

Kamala is not African American, she's part Jamaican and Indian 70.107.171.123 (talk) 23:26, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: See Q1 at the top of this page. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 23:34, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Removal of "the DREAM Act" and "advocacy for a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants" from the lead

An editor recently removed this part from the lead. Despite it being on the article for years. Why exactly was this removed? KlayCax (talk) 23:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 July 2024 (4)

Kamala Harris is NOT the “acting president of the Unied States.” Joe Biden is not pursuing re-election but he DID NOT resign his presidency. Even then, she would be president of the United States. This needs to be corrected. There is no “acting” president. We have presidents and president-elects. Thats it. 108.147.196.23 (talk) 00:01, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Where does it say that? Acroterion (talk) 00:06, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Well, she was briefly acting president a few years ago when Biden had a colonoscopy. So the statement is true. I don't think it is useful and think it should be removed; but will wait for others to opine. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:08, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Removed it Bohbye (talk) 00:08, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. It's a bit of confusing detail that's really not needed, and technically, she's still vice president even if "acting" as President.. Acroterion (talk) 00:10, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

It's in the body from 2021 as she She became the first woman, and the third person overall, to assume the powers and duties of the U.S. presidency under Section 3 of the Twenty-fifth Amendment. I think that's OK and interesting, just not lead-worthy. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:16, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

That's reasonable, and I agree with the OP that a title like "acting President" isn't a thing. Acroterion (talk) 00:20, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

It is a "thing" as per our article: Acting President of the United States. It's just uncommon and hasn't actually resulted in any actions. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:25, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

My point is it's a function, not an office. Acroterion (talk) 02:25, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

still misleading, especially with the current context where JB withdrew his nomination for president but is still president. Bohbye (talk) 00:23, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Removal of Shyamala Gopalan and Donald J. Harris from the lead

Both are well-known, famous figures within their respective fields (Post-Keynesian and Marxist thought for Harris; isolating and characterizing the progesterone receptor gene for Gopalan). Definitely deserves a sentence mention.

Wouldn't call it WP: PEACOCK or WP: NPOV pushing to note that her parents are notable, respected figures. KlayCax (talk) 00:52, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

[sortakinda copied from my usertalk]: KlayCax edited her father's article, adding "Marxian economist" to the very first sentence, citing only a paper he wrote on Marxian economics. Writing a paper about a subject is not sufficient to highlight one descriptor above all else. That was immediately after inserting "Marxist" (not even "Marxian") into the lead of this article, when it's not even covered in the body. This strikes me as a pretty blatant pair of POV edits. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 01:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

• 1.) That's a guilt-by-association fallacy. Individuals like Ron Reagan don't possess the ideology of their fathers or family. In fact, I was actively adding into both articles that they were not close to one another, and the friction between them.
• 2.) Donald J. Harris has been widely described as an economist working in the post-Keynesian and Marxist tradition. See here, here, here, and others.
• 3.) Other articles also highlight the political beliefs of individual's parents. If it's a notable part of their career.

"Marxist economist" and "Marxian economist" have both been used as descriptors at the beginning of articles. See Paul Sweezy, Neal Wood, and many other pages that use "Marxist economist". I also added in: According to Steven Fazzari, an economics professor at Washington University in St. Louis, Harris "was a leading figure in the small group of economists who posited alternative visions to neo-classical mainstream thinking about markets, and focused on the importance of income distribution long before income inequality became a widespread concern." and although due to a divorce they are not "close" to another one. while stating in the edit summary that he was "More of a Louis Althusser[-type] one than a Marxist-Leninist, though".

This is perfectly in line with policy. KlayCax (talk) 01:53, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

You isolated "Marxist" among the many, many possible descriptors and inserted it into the first sentence of that article, then into the lead of this article. Not going off on these various tangents trying to justify it. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 02:17, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

He works in the Marxian tradition and has a significant influence on post-Keynesian economics. Just because some people are idiots doesn't mean we have to retract notable information from the article.

What other possible descriptors could we have use in the lead? The only ones I can think of relate to post-Keynesianism and Marxian economics. KlayCax (talk) 02:26, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

We usually don't try to sum up people in a single-word descriptor unless they are overwhelmingly known for just that single word. If just "economist" isn't enough (which it frankly is for the lead), "Jamaican-American" or just "American" are both more in line with other articles on marginally-notable academics. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 15:28, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Your text included calling her parents "notable" in wiki voice, which is PEACOCK. It's also not the case. Her mother's article was created in 2019 and her father's in 2020. They weren't noteworthy academics when they raised her; they likely would not have gotten articles if Kamala hadn't run for POTUS. And then there's the issue of why you would put the word "Marxist" so close to the top in the way that you did, especially if it doesn't even relate to her, but to her father. In present-day US politics, the implications of that word are obvious. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:10, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

1.) They were noteworthy academics when they raised her.

2.) Wikipedia notoriously lacks representation of scientists. Not a surprise that they were two examples of this.

3.) Because many Americans are idiots doesn't mean that we have to dumb the page down. At the very least, a basic overview of her family should be included, even if it's just "economist" and "biologist". KlayCax (talk) 02:00, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

We could easily just have "economist Donald J. Harris" and have it in the body that he "worked in the tradition of post-Keynesian and Marxian economics." While noting that after her parent's divorce they aren't close to one another and have a relationship that is frictional. KlayCax (talk) 02:02, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I think "economist Donald J Harris" is appropriate hear, if only because if he were a liberal or conservative economist he would probably be described simply as an economist. It presents an NPOV issue to unduly specify one's branch of economics in some contexts and not others. Unbandito (talk) 02:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm alright with "economist Donald J. Harris" in the lead before a one-sentence reference of his influence in the two economic philosophies. KlayCax (talk) 02:28, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Editoralizing re. "African-American"

So, this is currently the final paragraph in the answer to "Q1: Why does Wikipedia say that Kamala Harris is African American/Asian American/South Asian American?" on this talk page (emphasis mine):

"Also of note is the difference between race and ethnicity. Race is grouping based on society's view. Ethnicity is grouping based on how people see themselves in common with others. Ms. Harris's race is unimportant. Her ethnicity is paramount. Using this criteria, Ms. Harris is clearly African-American and South Asian-American."

Since Wikipedia operates off of reliable sources, and not primary research, can someone explain which reliable source this seemingly arbitrary "criteria" is based on? It's not in the PolitiFact article. 202.89.148.53 (talk) 01:32, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

You didn't read the Politifact article, did you? Here's an NBC News piece you're free to read or ignore. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:41, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Again, I must restate that it is not in the PolitiFact article. If it is, feel free to quote it or the part that it's paraphrasing. 202.89.148.53 (talk) 02:26, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

So you didn't read it. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:32, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

We also have an article with additional cites: Afro-Jamaicans. “According to the 2001 census, Jamaica's population is overwhelmingly of African descent, and the most common ethnic groups among Africans taken to Jamaica for slavery during the 17th century were the Akan (or Coromantee) from present-day Ghana and the Igbo people from present-day Nigeria.” “Jamaicans of African descent represent 76.3% of the population ….” [2] We should also stop thinking of the US as America. Most of the Western hemisphere is part of the Americas, and that includes Jamaica. Americas O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:46, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

"We should also stop thinking of the US as America. Most of the Western hemisphere is part of the Americas, and that includes Jamaica."

So Kamala Harris is African-American because "American" could technically be referring to "the Americas" and not the United States? Unreal. Thank you for such a stunning piece of original research. You've made my day. 202.89.148.53 (talk) 02:29, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I said no such thing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 11:59, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Kamala Harris is an American in the "United States" sense and is of black African descent. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 15:23, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

It is that uncomplicated, despite the efforts of some. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:33, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Noting these definitions from Wiktionary:

African-American

1. A member of an ethnic group consisting of Americans of black African descent.

Indian-American

1. An American with South Asian ancestry or extraction.

See also WP:COMMONTERM, African Americans, & Indian Americans. If you still have questions about this, perhaps read the WP:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue essay. Peaceray (talk) 02:15, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

It's extremely important because, as the response in Q1 states, "using this criteria, Ms. Harris is clearly African-American and South Asian-American."

That's because if we DON'T use that criteria, it is NOT "clear" that Kamala Harris is African-American and South Asian-American. So, once again, where did this criteria come from? The Wiktionary terms? Doesn't seem like it. 202.89.148.53 (talk) 02:32, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm against including WP: TRIVIA stuff like this in the lead of most politicians. Although it's definitely notable if she becomes the first female politician. As for South Asian-American? Maybe. KlayCax (talk) 04:00, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Grammatical Issue

The lead section (first sentence of the third paragraph) has a comma error. Said sentence has an incorrect comma before the coordinating conjunction "but." Coordinating conjunctions should have commas when connecting two independent clauses; however, this comma connects an independent and dependent clause. We should remove the commma.

Attached is the sentence: "Harris sought the 2020 Democratic presidential nomination, but withdrew from the race prior to the primaries." WafflesBaconAndPuppies (talk) 05:38, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done YoPienso (talk) 14:24, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, the section "Awards and honors" (the first and only sentence of the third paragraph) has a grammatical issue. Said paragraph doesn't use an Oxford comma despite every list in the article using it. To maintain consistency, we should add a comma. Additionally, this paragraph incorrectly uses a semicolon. Semicolons should act as a period, connecting two independent clauses. However, this semicolon connects an independent and a dependent clause, which is incorrect.

Attached is the paragraph/sentence: "Harris was selected for the inaugural 2021 Forbes 50 Over 50; made up of entrepreneurs, leaders, scientists and creators who are over the age of 50." WafflesBaconAndPuppies (talk) 02:07, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Wording should be changed in 2024 presidential campaign section

"endorsing her to be the Democratic presidential nominee.[352] Harris also received endorsements from Biden" should probably remove 'also' or 'biden'. 49.183.71.1 (talk) 06:06, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I've copyedited, not exactly per your suggestion. YoPienso (talk) 14:43, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 July 2024

The sentence in th 2018 section says: "Later that month, Harris questioned Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen for favoring Norwegian immigrants over others and claiming to be unaware that Norway is a predominantly white country" and is unclear who is unaware. It should have a "for" inserted before the word "claiming." Mcdruid (talk) 07:28, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done Jamedeus (talk) 07:47, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Wanda Kagan

Is all this really necessary or appropriate? Sounds gossipy to me. With fewer words and less drama we could have a sentence saying Harris took up the protection of women and children after a college friend told her of being abused.

This is the passage I think she me eliminated or drastically reduced:

Wanda Kagan, a high school friend of Harris, later told CBC News in 2020 that Harris was her best friend and described how she confided in Harris that she (Kagan) had been molested by her stepfather. She said that Harris told her mother, who then insisted Kagan come to live with them for the remainder of her final year of high school. Kagan said Harris had recently told her that their friendship, and playing a role in countering Kagan's exploitation, helped form the commitment Harris felt in protecting women and children as a prosecutor. YoPienso (talk) 14:16, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Related: new WikiProject

• Wikipedia:WikiProject Kamala Harris

--Another Believer _(Talk) 15:32, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Pronunciation

It seems very weird that the pronunciation of her name is in a footnote, and not straight in the text like it is on every other article. I think it should probably be moved. Also, Harris can be pronounced in a couple different ways, so it might be good to detail how it is pronounced as well. (Does she use the vowel in CAT or CARE?) — trlkly 17:09, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm trying to fix it but there's some weird extra characters being left over when I try adding it back. Can someone fix it for me? The lorax (talk) 14:54, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

illegal immigrants vs undocumented immigrants

There seems to be a disagreement between PrecariousWorlds and Slatersteven regarding which of the two phrases to use. The latter (in the comment for the first revert) suggests looking at the source, but unfortunately both cited sources are about her stance on gun laws, not immigration. (That points to another issue, one which--if addressed--might settle the dispute on terminology. Until then, perhaps a {{citation needed}} might be in order.)

It seems to me that neither terminology is neutral, as both expressions seem to signal a certain stance on the issue. I don't know of neutral terminology for this concept (though I have seen reference to the expression unauthorized migrant). Perhaps someone else is aware of some. Otherwise, how do we come to consensus on a disagreement such as this? Trackerwannabe (talk) 18:13, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

If it is unsourced, it should be just removed. Slatersteven (talk) 18:17, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Here are a few sources:

• Remarks by Vice President Harris Before Meeting With DACA Recipients, Dreamers without DACA, and Immigrant Rights Leaders
• Harris meets DACA recipients after ruling
• How Kamala Harris would provide citizenship to Dreamers

I can neither add reference to the sources, nor remove the statement regarding her position, as I do not have permissions to edit a protected page. Perhaps someone, with such permission, will choose to do so.

Trackerwannabe (talk) 18:45, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

"Undocumented" is the neutral term. "Illegal" puts a negative connotation on the individual. AP Stylebook has a good explainer. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:52, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

This has come up several times over the years. Most style guides seem to go with "undocumented immigrant" or something similar, but when it comes to picking one or the other those who prefer "illegal immigrant" point out that even those sources with style guides still sometimes use that formulation and, perhaps most saliently, it appears in many places in US law. IIRC consensus has stopped short of prohibiting "illegal immigrant" while acknowledging it's fallen out of favor and considered offensive by some groups. I think most people could get behind something like "people without a legal immigration status" or something as a compromise, but it's wordier. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 19:05, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Hence "undocumented", which indicates that their status isn't that of a legal citizen. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:10, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

While "undocumented" may be a less loaded term, I wouldn't consider it neutral. Even the AP Stylebook page you reference states: "Except in direct quotations, do not use the terms illegal alien, an illegal, illegals or undocumented." [Bold added for emphasis]

Trackerwannabe (talk) 19:20, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't really make sense to use "undocumented" in this instance when illegal immigration is clearly the accepted convention on Wikipedia PrecariousWorlds (talk) 05:57, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I would like to add that the article is much better as it is now, with the phrase omitted entirely and just mentioning the DREAM act. The wording of the sentence was confusing before PrecariousWorlds (talk) 05:58, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Are we taking a stance to make her look good in the eyes of progressives? Is that what Wikipedia stands for? Bohbye (talk) 06:05, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Would you prefer we make her look bad? HiLo48 (talk) 06:40, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

ISBN hyphenation

There are two ISBNs on this page in section Publications with incorrect hyphenation, according to Bowker and ISBN International. 978-1-984837-49-3 -> 978-1-9848-3749-3 and 978-1-984886-22-4 -> 978-1-9848-8622-4. Cam1170 (talk) 18:14, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 July 2024 (2)

The personal story of Kamala Harris does not include where she was born or anything else about her childhood. The article states that she is both African American and Asian American. OK. from what sources. For a important person running for the Presidency of the US, this information is crucial. Also, her husband is said to have been born into a Jewish family. Does this mean he doesn't consider himself Jewish? I understand that he practices Jewish traditions. So, why not state that he is Jewish? Are his children being brought up Jewish? Is Kamala part of that process as their stepmother? 74.71.242.17 (talk) 18:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

An edit request has to tell us what edit you wish made, not for general issues of content. Slatersteven (talk) 18:23, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Willie Brown relationship

i notice absolutely no mention was made that Willie brown was still married when dating Harris?

isn't this an important part 99.33.126.209 (talk) 22:31, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

That's not actually a fact about Harris. Far more relevant to Brown. HiLo48 (talk) 00:31, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Brown and his wife separated in 1981. Brown dated Kamala from 1994 to 1995. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:32, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 July 2024 (3)

Change "In the immediate aftermath, Harris fell in the polls following that debate" to "In the immediate aftermath of the debate, Harris fell in the polls", for readability. OffTheDeepEnd (talk) 22:44, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done Left guide (talk) 23:33, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Presumptive Nominee

Now that the Associated Press's delegate tracker reports Harris has crossed the 1,976 threshold, the page should be updated to include her status as the presumptive Democratic nominee for President. CyberCatCA (talk) 01:49, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

There is a related discussion at Talk:2024 United States presidential election and so far the consensus there has been to wait. --Super Goku V (talk) 02:06, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

It's updated as of recently as 2024 United States presidential election now shows Harris as the presumptive nominee. Numerous RS concur. CyberCatCA (talk) 02:09, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Of course I would say something and it ends up changing in just 60 seconds. :p Yeah, I would recommend it now. --Super Goku V (talk) 02:14, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Bloomberg just reported her as the presumptive candidate based on the AP survey Harris Crosses Delegate Threshold in Sign Nomination Is Hers - Bloomberg. Raladic (talk) 02:09, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

She is NOT the presumptive nominee. She has enough non binding delegates which is born the same as what Biden had. Bohbye (talk) 03:40, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

• not* the same

Bohbye (talk) 03:41, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

It is similar though. Biden had a majority of unpledged delegates from primaries and Harris has a majority of unpledged delegates from endorsements. --Super Goku V (talk) 04:35, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 July 2024

Kamala Harris Outlines Crypto Vision Amid Approval Rating Fluctuations

Thimappac910 (talk) 18:52, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

•  Not done The edit request process is to propose an edit in a "change X content to Y content" format. You've just posted a link- please tell the specific edit you would like to see. 331dot (talk) 19:03, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Kamala's Tamil name - கமலா தேவி ஹாரிஸ்

The first paragraph should start as follows, to properly acknowledge her first and middle name, which are Indian in origin, specifically using Tamil script (per her mother Shyamala Gopalan):

Kamala Devi Harris (கமலா தேவி ஹாரிஸ்; born October 20, 1964) is an American politician ... and so on ...

--ゴミバコ (talk) 21:43, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Her heritage is discussed in the article, is this done in other articles about US politicians? She doesn't write her name in Tamil. 331dot (talk) 21:50, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

331dot, here are some examples:

• Norm Mineta
• Mazie Hirono
• Bob Matsui
• Ted Lieu
• Joseph Cao
• Young Kim

They are all Asian Americans. Thanks!

--ゴミバコ (talk) 22:13, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Most were born outside of the USA too ... If Harris doesn't use Tamil to write her name, we certainly should not either EvergreenFir (talk) 22:21, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Agree with this. It's not clear all of the articles above should do this, either. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 22:35, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Especially Mineta, who was born in the US. 331dot (talk) 22:37, 23 July 2024 (UTC)