Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Alf Ramsey/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 28 March 2019 [1].


Nominator(s): Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned!, The Rambling Man (talk) and User:Egghead06 22:28, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the only England manager to have won a major trophy.

It's a high quality piece of work, mainly thanks to The Rambling Man and another former editor, whom I remember fondly and would love to see editing again - and if you see this, you know who you are, your work here is appreciated and you are always welcome to drop me a line.

I invite scrutiny, constructive criticism and support - if due. Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 22:28, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

PS If anyone knows how to add TRM as nominator, please do. I'm too tired/stupid. Thanks. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 22:30, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by JennyOz

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Hi Dweller and TRM, as discussed, a few questions and suggestions...

Don't forget I'm not very au fait with football terms and am fine with you to bypassing comments where that is obvious. JennyOz (talk) 05:41, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

JennyOz thanks so much. I've addressed and responded to most of them, a handful for my esteemed colleague when he gets a moment. Look forward to round 2! The Rambling Man (talk) 11:27, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks so far both, just adding another comment, JennyOz (talk) 07:24, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Dweller and TRM. I've replied re original comments above. All else you've answered, thanks! I've added 2 new comments for your consideration. Looking good! Regards, JennyOz (talk) 06:36, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

JennyOz all done, bar the very last one which I've made a suggestion and pinged Dweller on. Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 11:55, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Dweller and TRM, I am happy to support this nom. Special gratitude for explanations! Regards, JennyOz (talk) 02:43, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Kosack

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Great article, I genuinely enjoyed reading that. A few minor points I noticed above. Kosack (talk) 11:41, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Kosack, many thanks for your comments. I've addressed all bar the snipping out and reinserting of the England career, I'd like my cohort to opine. Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 12:29, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
All my issues have been addressed, happy to support this. Kosack (talk) 20:10, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 22:57, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by ImmortalWizard

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I will be doing mainly spot checks and verifiability of sources. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 13:42, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • In the 1966 World Cup, ref 101 doesn't talk about the his "tactical awareness" and the players' position.
    Good spot. This source could be added usefully. Except it talks about 4132 not 442. The bit about Ramsey offering to quit over Stiles could also be worth including, what say you, The Rambling Man? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:24, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, since this user has advocated long term bans on me, I'm not inclined to comment further or deal with this objectively, so I'll leave it to you Dweller. I'm perplexed as to why someone who has made such open scathing comments about me personally would seek to comment on a FAC with which I'm deeply involved. And she's not the only one doing this. It's all a bit odd really. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:42, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, I'll amend. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:36, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He stuck to his guns and kept faith with Greaves's replacement, Geoff Hurst, who vindicated Ramsey's" - bit subjective and I suspect WP:SYNTH. Maybe the video ref in 103 supports it completely, which I don't have access to.
    This seems self-evident to me. I'm pretty sure I can easily find a source who says something like this, but you're asking me to reference it being light when the sun came up. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:34, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I checked ref 130, but couldn't find any support to England being the favorites of the 1972 World Cup.
Assuming you mean the 19702 World Cup, this source says "Journalists ranked England as favourites to retain the World Cup, although I suspect this reflects the hyperbole and unrealistic expectations that have always followed the national team." Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:02, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I can't find the ref you mentioned being used so far. Hopefully it will be cited in-line. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 16:07, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Done --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:34, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
ImmortalWizard Hi, thanks for your comments, I'll wait until you're finished (please indicate when that happens) before I fix any issues. Obviously the article is a big picutre thing so it'd be best to hear from you about all your issues before starting out on anything. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:53, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

ImmortalWizard thanks again, your comments here seem to have come out of the blue, but are very much appreciated. Regardless that many have asked why you're commenting here, I personally welcome your input, and look forward to focusing on your comments to make this a featured article. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:02, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Unfortunately, it was my first major FAC involvement and I opt to close here. The prose is well-written apart from being subjective here and there with some buzzwords and weasel words. I schemed through a couple of the FA essays, especially this one, regarding source checking. I think fact checking is quite often overlooked, understandably because of being painful and time killing. However, I think we should aim for more to enhance credibility and reader' interest. Overall, the article is neat and look passable. Since it's my first FAC review, I would appreciate constructive feedback from both the nominators and other editors. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 17:04, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I mostly assumed good faith, so my review might not weigh much in hindsight. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 17:15, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

All done, I think. Thank you for the comments. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:14, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Ritchie333

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I reviewed this for GA and thought it was in pretty good shape even then, and I am pleased to see the article at FAC, which I know the nominators have wanted to do for some time. With the issues addressed above, I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would prevent me from supporting this; hopefully if I get time I will look into the article in more depth and report back anything. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:58, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • The word "manager" followed by "managed" in the opening two sentences jars a little bit, but I can't think of any alternative that works better right now.
    I think that was a fair call. I've amended by inserting some info about playing, to break up the repetition a little more. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:57, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with that is the lead now starts off by talking about his playing career, then switches to mentioning his managerial career which he is far better known for; unfortunately, again I haven't got an ideal solution to that, so maybe what we've now got is the best we're going to get. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:09, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I can't think of anything else, once those two issues are looked at I'll be happy to support. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:38, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And that's a support from me. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 23:29, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gerda

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Thank you for this result of teamwork. Good read, even for someone unfamiliar with the sport, and well sourced. I don't know how to solve that - late - he spent time with his wife of whom we haven't heard before. I am also not happy with "West Germany" piped to a team without "West" in the name, but that's probably eggy just for me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:27, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Gerda. On the wife, look one section up, in the personal life section, where his marriage is detailed. The Germany/West Germany thing is about anachronism. At the time it was called one, it's now called the other. It would be wrong to call it by the wrong name here. When linking through, the article explains the name. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:46, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
At the time, I wasn't into sports in English-speaking countries. Did they really say "West Germany" then? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:09, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not just with regard to sport. Yes, absolutely. That's what the country was called in English sources until unification in the 90s. No idea what it was called in German. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 22:24, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I believe it was “der Bundesrepublik Deutschland” Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 00:02, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
OK. See West Germany! --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:52, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I know that article, and was on the talk page when I was young, because that's sloppy. Was it called that in sports announcements, that's my (admittedly ignorant) question. Guess what, when you live in what was called by some West Germany, you just called it Germany, and your passport said Bundesrepublik Deutschland, - in the eastern part similar, - of no relevance to this article. Would they say: "the hymn of West Germany" in a match? Would results say "West Germany"? Learning. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:40, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. And in all contexts, not just sport. Example. I found it was quite an effort to remember to say "Germany" without prefix in the early 90s. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:15, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Belatedly adding an additional nominator, sorry Egghead06 --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:58, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Lemonade51

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minor at that:

  • Under sacking, "The disappointments of quarter final exits from major tournaments in 1970 and 1972," should quarter-final here be hypenated?
  • "Ramsey suffered a stroke on 9 June 1998, during the 1998 World Cup," rather on the eve of the tournament -- it kicked-off on 10 June. Lemonade51 (talk) 16:26, 17 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Lemonade51 thanks, addressed both of those comments. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:20, 17 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comments

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I don't see where the images have been reviewed, so I've requested one and provisionally a source review. Unless, JennyOz, can I take from your comments that you looked through all the sources for formatting and reliability? --Laser brain (talk) 15:13, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Laser_brain, Nope, afraid not. Looked at a few but not a proper source review. JennyOz (talk) 16:05, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Laser brain looks like we're good to go now. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:30, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Re. images, yes -- think we still need the source review. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:43, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oh yeah. Let us know if/when this is completed. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:49, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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It seems like all images are pertinent to the section they are in; no comment on captions. Most images have no ALT text. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:48, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, all addressed. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:56, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

More on sources

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Some verifiability checks have been carried out, but there are other sources issues. For example, the link in ref 105 is dead, and the link in 106 goes to an unrelated page. Brianboulton (talk) 12:47, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton those have been addressed. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:33, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I even got IABot to add archive refs to 67 other references. The joy! The Rambling Man (talk) 13:39, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've run a general eye over the references, and picked up a few further points:

  • Ref 113: link returns a 404 error message
  • A few missing retrieval dates: 83, 93, 108, 159, 162, 189, 190.
  • Retrieval dates are inconsistently provided for book references. See for example, 95 96, 97 et al, and compare e.g. with 115, 117 et al
  • I am unhappy with the use of open-ended page ranges. These have been justified earlier in this review on the grounds of common parlance, but they are not helpful from a verification point of view. For example, "pp. 10–" could encompass virtually the whole book. Some of the books for which open page ranges are used are linked to unpaginated versions, so these page references are unusable in these cases. Chapter references would be more useful.
  • While on this topic, in ref 124 the page reference is given as "pp. 38–" but p. 38 alone supports the statement in the article. Similarly with ref 143 where "p. 301" would suffice.

Subject to the above, the sources meet the required quality and reliability criteria. Brianboulton (talk) 20:09, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

All addressed. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:36, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the eagle-eyed review, Brianboulton and for your hard work fixing things, The Rambling Man --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:40, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I'm here for Dweller... The Rambling Man (talk) 09:57, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Are we all done now? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:44, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Co-ordinators, we appear to be done. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:05, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Dweller: Thanks, taking a look now. --Laser brain (talk) 14:53, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.