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A news item involving Attempted assassination of Donald Trump was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 13 July 2024.
Wikipedia
Title
"Shooting" might be taken to imply that the attack was fatal. I propose moving to "2024 Donald Trump assassination attempt". Mårtensås (talk) 22:44, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, but I am not even sure "shooting" is appropriate at this point: none of the reliable sources state that unequivocally. Dumuzid (talk) 22:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fox, CNN, ABC, NBC, and Trump have called this a shooting. Trump personally confirmed that was shot via TruthSocial. Icrin7 (talk) 03:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This entire line of discussion is unbelievable, and a clear example of why Wikipedia has a credibility problem. We don't need to stand by and refuse to call this what it obviously is, and what numerous outlets have already confirmed. The reluctance to do so reeks of political bias. agomulka (talk) 03:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As of right now, the page title should stay as is, but I agree that the name could be changed to something more informational. Silaaaaaa (talk) 23:20, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Shooting" could also imply that it was a mass shooting so I think your title is better, though I do also think we should wait before moving in case it's labeled something else. Articles about mass shootings simply say "shooting" in their title. As it stands I believe both CNN and Fox report that there were multiple shots fired but only Donald Trump and one bystander are confirmed to be struck but both still alive and receiving urgent care. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. LegendoftheGoldenAges85 of the East (talk | worse talk) 23:25, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Mårtensås I'm not sure how "shooting" implies it was fatal. Shots were fired; it is a shooting. "Shooting of Donald Trump" would be the best title in my opinion as the media is most commonly referring to this as a shooting. Cobblebricks (talk) 23:59, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The current title suggests Trump was not the target, that there was merely shooting at unspecified targets at the rally. Assuming this is not the case - TBD obviously, then a name change should occur. Note there is already at least one link to this article in a Trump assassination attempt paragraph. 人族 (talk) 01:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep for now but eventually go to Donald trump assassination attempt. A section could be dedicated to different aspects obviously including others besides trump hurt killed etc. the title is awkward and needs to be changed at one point way too wordy. IEditPolitics (talk) 03:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree. We do not yet know if this was an assassination attempt, much less if Trump was the actual target. It certainly seems likely, but the shooter may have, for example, been trying to kill someone else. Or he may have been trying to just wound Trump, rather than kill him. Stick with reliable information for now. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:49, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. It is candidly absurd to suggest that the target wasn't Trump and that the bullet that seemingly struck his ear was intended merely to harm. This was clearly an assassination attempt. -- justdweezil (talk) 00:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. At the very least, “2024” should be removed from the title—no need to distinguish this from any other shootings, since there aren’t any. PencilSticks0823 (talk) 03:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is likely an attempted assassination, however I would wait a bit until more information is available. Unless reliable sources directly state this is an assassination we can’t rename the page. SKAG123 (talk) 03:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it should be called the "Trump rally shooting" or the "Butler, Pennsylvania rally shooting" because someone died here. Naming it after Trump unduly erases that person. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's definitely a major tragedy for that person's family and friends, but the reason the event is historically significant is because Trump, a major-party candidate for president and former president, was nearly killed by an assassin. See assassination of John F. Kennedy - an unlucky policeman was also shot dead by Oswald that day but it would be certainly undue to mention him in the title. Bremps...03:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The suggestion that we don't know that this was an assassination attempt is either (1) blatant political editorialization, or (2) epistemological sophistry that insults the intelligence of everyone that comes to this website. This site should be embarrassed for the fact that this is even a debate right now. Velostodon (talk) 03:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please let's not turn the article into a reaction farm
I think we should only include reactions if they're notable. Random expressions of sympathy will unnecessarily bloat the Reactions section. Nythar (💬-🍀) 23:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As per usual, I think it's worthwhile to have Biden and Shapiro's reactions. Other reactions can be added if they prove to be meaningful (i.e. if a politician starts a conspiracy that gets popular) Ornov Ganguly (talk) 23:05, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would it be best to remove the section on X users too? I feel like it's a bit redundant and way too vague of a statement, all things considered. Anjellies (talk) 23:11, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with this analysis. I think political leaders from the area and in the relevant federal arena may be appropriate. A random businessperson of any persuasion is inappropriate. Zkidwiki (talk) 23:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That might be a topic for an article about Elon Musk's political donations as it stands. Besides that, we need to wait for someone to say that Musk is doing his usual nonsense. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 02:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Elon Musk was added back, but we can discuss here whether to keep it. I also believe Gallego might be unnessisary. He's just a random member from Arizona and I anticipate many, many members of congress on both sides of the aisle addressing this. And Governors will too, so to that extent I don't know if Whitmer's needed. Jcoolbro (talk) (c)23:21, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Musk is unnecessary unless he mobilises something major in support of Trump. As it stands, he just sent a Tweet. NYT reporting does not lend it newsworthiness because they're slapping everything on a live feed right now. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 23:25, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Barring new additions aside from those four officials is a bit odd, particularly since Whitmer is not the governor of the relevant state and is not a federal official. I don't think there is a rational basis for including only those four and, say, excluding Barack Obama and George W. Bush from the list. — Red-tailed hawk(nest)00:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was trying to avoid being accused of ownership. I think that former presidents are still questionably important here. We can squish them all into "former presidents and politicians" once we get a full picture. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 00:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am suggesting we follow the Attack on Paul Pelosi's reaction page. Start at the President, mention the VP's reaction, local governor and mayors' reactions, and then in a few weeks or months we can discuss the general rabble/politicians' reactions. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 23:30, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Came here to say the same thing. Unless the reaction actually has a significant effect as described in reliable sources, they're trivia and there is no reason to include them. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:41, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Heavy prune. It can be trimmed to one sentence, "The shooting was universally condemned by politicians from both the Republican and Democratic parties." Abductive (reasoning)00:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are at least 193 countries on earth, each with many leaders. Javier Milei and Benjamin Netanyahu saying they offer condolences do not have lasting impact on politics. Unless the media hyperfixates on any specific leader's comments, they are trivia or clutter. We have set a very low bar to entry by allowing one line responses from even previous world leaders. When we mention Biden's responses, that is because it is an extension of the US government's attitude and because it will be highly covered. The same will likely not be true of Kier Starmer. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 01:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, they are politicians mouthing platitudes. That is the job of politicians, and deserves no more mention than any other non-encyclopedic topic. Abductive (reasoning)01:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone else think Whitmer is not needed in reactions? She seems kind of random considering she's from a completely different state. Jcoolbro (talk) (c)01:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot think of a single realistic scenario where this would be necessary. The point remains that we need to prune this section down to three or four sentences max. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 01:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The reactions of world leaders are relevant. The reactions of former world leaders (e.g. Liz Truss, who was in the office for less than two months), and Opposition Leaders (e.g. Pierre Poilievre) isn't. Luminism (talk) 02:07, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly agree with you on that last part. Hopefully we can get more support so this doesn't turn into WP:WAR. I beg to differ on the first part, and I suppose we'll have to wait and see what others have to say. Again, my reasoning is that their thoughts do not impact politics in either country. This is a national event, and unless/until other countries take it as a cue to update policies or treat the US a different way, this is politically irrelevant. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 02:11, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The responses section is the largest section in this article at 12,983 bytes. It is continuing to grow because we are allowing additions too liberally. Please use this area as a discussion section for this topic. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 01:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to go with any "wait" ideas, given an administrator moved it away from that title with 0 discussion. It was the title prior to administrator protection, and a single person determined the current name. Nah, a discussion needs to happen. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page)23:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that's a good solution. If the overall consensus from the discussion is that waiting is the best course of action then that is what should happen. ~OneRandomBrit | User Page | Talk01:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd support a move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump since none of the other assassination attempts against him (such as the ricin one) were nearly as notable as this one. Nythar (💬-🍀) 23:06, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SimplyLouis27:WP:VNT. Do you have proof/sources that it was not confirmed or is not the common term? I listed 8 sources above using it. Sorry, but SNOWCLOSE isn't a valid thing for this, with a "not confirmed" reasoning because Wikipedia doesn't care about what is or isn't confirmed. Only what is verifiable, which "attempted assassination" is as presented above. If you wish to oppose, you can, but please provide a valid oppose reasoning via Wikipedia's policy. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page)23:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose and wait, we still do not know the motive of the perpetrator(s), It's possible it was not the goal to harm Trump but simply shoot at the rally. There is more information we should wait for. I believe we can move when it is confirmed an assassination was the goal. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 23:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm saying this with no disrespect, but you are either as blind as a bat or just being really ignorant. There is 8 RS listed in the proposal saying it was an assassination attempt. Since this is now the 2nd time your mentioned RS not using it, I'm specifically calling out the 8 sources above. If you still say RS as an oppose reasoning, take all eight sources to WP:RSN to get a consensus on their reliability. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page)23:29, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
With respect, most of those are not RS, or should not be taken as RS on such matters when well-established political and national news media are not saying something. The rest are just repeating verbatim what the first lot said. But they're just hyperbolic for clicks, because until there is intelligence about the situation, it cannot be said conclusively, and no RS worth its salt is going to effectively influence the immediate intelligence-gathering by putting such a statement out there. Kingsif (talk) 23:37, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the sources you listed aren't exactly well known media organisations. For example, the BBC make not mention of this being a assassination attempt. [9]. Also, please don't call other editors ignorant its quite rude and condescending. SimplyLouis27 (talk) 23:37, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please, do not engage in exaggeration; it's not going to help the situation any. And, at this time, there is nothing indicating that Donald Trump was in any danger of "getting his f*cking brains blown out". In an effort to keep things civil here, it does appear that Trump ended up with some kind of injury to the back top of his right ear; however, due to the constantly evolving news environment, it's not yet confirmed how he ended up with that injury. ClarkKentWannabe (talk) 02:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support but wait: It was pretty clearly an assassination attempt; however, I'm willing to wait for more reliable sources describing it as such. No objections, either, to calling it "2024 shooting of Donald Trump", or something simple in that respect; I strongly dislike the current name, which is wordy and falls flat on encyclopedic guidelines. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤)23:25, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support His ear was literally shot, and the shooter was clearly aiming for his head. Had the shooter succeeded and killed him it would have been referred to as an assassination. PlanetDeadwing (talk) 23:29, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support for now, but we should wait. Almost every media source I can find explores the potential of "assassination attempt", even if they also refer to it as a shooting; though there is as of yet no official classification. Let's wait—but given current information, support is the way to go. LegendoftheGoldenAges85 of the East (talk | worse talk) 23:30, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support but wait There are no official versions yet whether Trump was the main target of the assassination attempt or not, but it is obvious that he was. I suggest waiting for the official version of law enforcement agencies about whether Trump was the main target, and if they confirm that he was, then change the page name. PLATEL (talk) 23:32, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support but wait. We are getting to a point where the media will say this is attempted, but I think there we should wait. However, shouldn't this be like "Assassination Attempt of Donald Trump" (omitting the year, to be in line with Reagan's article) 49p (talk) 23:34, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah that's what I meant to say. Year won't be relevant to the article's title unless something changes in the near future. 49p (talk) 23:58, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support but wait: It was pretty clearly an assassination attempt; according to sources i read, multiple shoots being witnessed. let's wait for now and not rush things up till things get a bit cleared out. —— 🌸 Sakura emad 💖 (talk) 23:36, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support — WP:BLUE. Barring any issues with the title, the Butler attorney general has confirmed gunfire and everything hints at it to be a politically-motivated assassinatiion attempt. Luunarr (talk) 23:38, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, and oppose anything speedy No major media outlet (the proposal sources are dubious for political matters at best, some outright trash) is saying so, because they cannot confirm it, because police intelligence (while this is major and they will be working quickly) will not have yet told them so. The reason why no solid RS is running with "looks pretty obvious" is to not interfere, and Wikipedia absolutely does not lead the way on describing such incidents, especially if it would be applying a criminal motive that has not been reported by police yet. Kingsif (talk) 23:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - we don't know who the target was. We've got years to change it. There's other issues with the title ... 2024? Have there been others? Was it a rally or a campaign event? Nfitz (talk) 23:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Who the target is, isn't really the point at this stage. No shortage of disturbed individuals at a rally for an adjudicated rapist, prosecuted racist, and convicted criminal. Though that Trump appears to have been hit certainly suggest he was the target. But how were the other 3 victims not appearing to be anywhere near the podium. Don't make assumptions. And what's the rush? The current title is not inaccurate. Nfitz (talk) 02:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support "Shooting of Donald Trump", pending further announcements of motive. The article title can be improved even before a motive is released, and the fact that Trump was shot appears to be the single most notable thing here. We don't need to circumlocute to "2024 shooting at a Donald Trump rally" pending future announcements when we can make an incremental change to benefit the page. Status quo is not good enough, and also is not the sort of thing that we should default to in a WP:NOCON close, since the original page title was at 2024 attempted assassination of Donald Trump. If we do get motive, then I would support Attempted assassination of Donald Trump, since we don't need the year and it's better grammar-wise. — Red-tailed hawk(nest)23:47, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support but wait. We should make sure we have the fine details worked out before. There has been reports by reputable news sources about this topic, but there's definitely still some ambiguity that needs settling. 𝙰𝙶𝚛𝚎𝚊𝚝𝚄𝚜𝚎𝚛𝚗𝚊𝚖𝚎𝙲𝚑𝚘𝚒𝚌𝚎 (ramble)23:47, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support - It seems fairly clear that this was an assassination attempt, with some RS exploring the idea. We likely won't officially know until down the line, however, this should be moved back to its original title. A "shooting" understates the importance/severity of an assassination attempt, especially during an election cycle. 30Four (talk) 23:54, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note AP is now reporting that the Secret Service is investigating this as an attempted assassination (source). Unless there's a good reason not to, I'm going to unilaterally implement this move in about 10 minutes (since that seems to have rough consensus and be supported by RSes). Please let me know below if there is a good reason not to. —Ganesha811 (talk) 23:54, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Further comment - Unilaterally is the wrong word to have used, but consensus is becoming pretty clear here in this RM. I don't see the point in Wikipedia's article title being vague and imprecise. If (and there's about a 0.1% chance at this point) this turns out to have been something *other* than an attempted assassination of Donald Trump, the article can always be moved back. —Ganesha811 (talk) 00:05, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to get this dragged into a process discussion, so I won't be making any move myself. However, I do support the proposed move. —Ganesha811 (talk) 00:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, because we don't know the motives of the perpetrator. We can't find out directly from the perpetrator because they're dead, but I imagine the Secret Service will find out what their motives were one way or the other. As I'm typing this, someone noted that the Secret Service is investigating this as an assassination attempt, so thanks in advance for that note. Ultimately, we'll have to see what they conclude. Unknown0124 (talk) 00:00, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't mean we should exacerbate the problem with renaming the article based largely on original research/editors opinions on the event. Traumnovelle (talk) 00:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As much as I agree that we're often way too fast on creating articles on events, this is one case where the article is warranted. Assassination attempts don't happen everyday, especially not in the case of candidates for the President of the most powerful nation in the world. LilianaUwU(talk / contributions)01:24, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, I wouldn't say delete it but I see where they're coming from. It's a current event article about something so current we don't really know what's happen(ed/ing). If the very basis of the event's notability cannot be definitely said (i.e. is the event "someone tried to shoot Trump" or "someone tried to wreak havoc at Trump rally" or unlikely but possibly "Trump fan discharged gun in crowd at rally, oops") then it'd be hard to get it through AfC, for example. Kingsif (talk) 00:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, not really. The whole point of deletion is to decide whether or not the article should exist. "The article won't be deleted" and "I don't think the article should exist" are different statements, rather. CFA💬00:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is obviously not a WP:G10. In what way is this page designed to disparage, threaten, intimidate, or harass their subject or some other entity, and serve no other purpose? — Red-tailed hawk(nest)00:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait It is way too early to be discussing this, the current title of the article is fine. Until an official statement about what just happened comes out from a major official source confirming what possible motive was involved here. (Major official source being something like: President's office, District Attoerey, US Secret Service, FBI, CIA) BlunanNation (talk) 00:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support but wait Obviously an assassination attempt, but I think we should wait for some more clarification before we can make a decision to change the title. Indiana6724 (talk) 00:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The attempted assassination of President Reagan is described as such, even though it did not result in his death but did result in the death of another; this is no different. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 00:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Any logical mind assumes that firing bullets at someone is an attempt at their life, as a political figure it is entirely fair to assume a shooting at them at a political event is an assassination attempt.★Trekker (talk) 00:11, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This was clearly an attempt to take his life and this will likely lead to him being a martyr which could have election impacts. AlienChex (talk) 00:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait.' - We don't know what the shooter's motives were yet. It seems likely that it was an assassination attempt but it has not yet been confirmed. Shooting is neutral until authorities determine it was an assassination attempt. We should, however, add that this is being investigated as a potential assassination attempt in the lede. Titanium Dragon (talk) 00:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. It was clearly an attempt to wound and or seriously injure him. This is going to have major implications for the 2024 election. It is being investigated as an assassination attempt and the White House is making a statement related to the event. Potomokbelogobarsa (talk) 00:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now as WP:V is not met, in spite of what all of these support comments think. There is a great likelihood this was an assassination attempt, but for all we know some yahoo started firing a gun into the air and some shrapnel nicked Trump. We need to wait for the results of the ongoing investigation and mind WP:BREAKING. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As a quick note: Muboshgu was the administrator who unilaterally moved this article to 2024 shooting at a Donald Trump rally, following a page protection for move warring. Just wanting that noted as this user (as well as myself) are involved in this discussion. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page)03:39, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support for reasons of common sense as stated above. Regardless, title should be changed in line with WP:NCWWW as the current one is very unwieldly. "2024 Donald Trump rally shooting" would be more appropriate. CompassNNE (talk) 00:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose it is WP:TOOSOON to determine if it was an attempted assassination or not. We should absolutely not attempt to gun on this and frankly, the article was created too early as it is.}} Downerr2937 (talk) 00:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now. Although I do not deny that Trump was purposefully targeted, we are not even sure quite yet what the downed shooter's motive was. Let's wait for the investigation to turn up any further information. FreeMediaKid$00:25, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support but wait. I say it's highly likely it was an assassination attempt, but it's also possible that it was a random shooting with no political or religious motives, which doesn't constitute an assassination per its definition: murder (an important person) in a surprise attack for political or religious reasons. It might be better to wait until a motive for the suspect has been found. SilentExplorer (talk) 00:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In his testimonies and letters, Yamagami claimed that he was driven by a grudge against the Unification Church for ruining his family. Even though he originally planned to target Hak Ja Han, then president of the church, he was unable to approach her, so he switched to Shinzo Abe, whom he believed was "one of the most influential sympathisers" of the church.SilentExplorer (talk) 00:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
AP saying they have been told it is being investigated as such =/= AP saying it is such. We have to wait for the latter, whatever editors think is obvious. Kingsif (talk) 00:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article says: "The attack, by a shooter who law enforcement officials say was then killed by the Secret Service, was the first attempt to assassinate a president or presidential candidate since Ronald Reagan was shot in 1981." They are on-board with assassination attempt. -- GreenC00:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support This was a clear cut assassination attempt. As someone else stated above, this was clearly an attempt to take his life and people usually shoot to kill their target. Anthonyd33331 (talk) 00:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy support @ everyone going ermmmm we don't know the motive of the shooter, actually 🤓 There is no reason for an audience member to fire a gun at a politician unless it is to assassinate them. Enough chicanery. Kodiak Blackjack (talk) • (contribs)00:33, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I need to know where someone is being personally attacked. I cannot see anyone being specifically insulted, Kodiak is just having it out at a general argument here. BarntToust (talk) 02:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is your English this poor? The use of apparent implies a lack of decisiveness. ' : manifest to the senses or mind as real or true on the basis of evidence that may or may not be factually valid ' From your own source. Traumnovelle (talk) 00:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Sources have yet to identify it as an assassination attempt. "Shooting" is the predominant, even accounting for geographic and political bias, e.g. NYT: "Trump ‘Safe’ After Shooting at Rally", Fox News: "Former President Clinton condemns shooting at Trump rally", The Guardian: "Trump rally shooting being investigated". "Support but wait" is a meaningless distinction here, as we don't have crystal balls and don't know that will definitely be the language this turns out on. Sure, I'd put money on it, but this is an encyclopedia, we wait for reliable reporting. Dylnuge(Talk • Edits)00:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not a reliable source, so it doesn't really matter what I'd call it. This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. FWIW, we have seen a recent case where certitude something would be labeled an assassination attempt on a US politician was wrong, with Attack on Paul Pelosi. Dylnuge(Talk • Edits)00:48, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While we wait for reliable sources to concur here, I support the move to "2024 Donald Trump rally shooting" others have suggested. Dylnuge(Talk • Edits)01:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The existing title is factual and accurate. Whether it was an assassination attempt is speculation, which Wikipedia should not do. The cited news reports couch things in terms like suspected, alleged, or possible. Unless and until what happened is investigated and confirmed by a formal investigation by competent authorities, and even then, the existing title is fine. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
are you seriously arguing someone went onto a roof overlooking a trump rally with a rifle and it was some sort of accidental misfire and that he wasn't trying to assassinate him? Scu ba (talk) 00:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Should we also change the title of the “Assassination of John F. Kennedy” article to “1963 shooting at Dealey Plaza”? Catauro (talk) 00:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The argument is that Wikipedia contains information from reliable secondary sources, and they do not say definitively either way. Kingsif (talk) 00:50, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At present we don't know, for certain, what was going on, who the person on the roof was or what their motives for being there was. Second guessing in advance of a formal investigation is WP:SPECULATION. Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ah right it could've been anything! people clamber onto roofs with a rifle overlooking a presidential candidates rally all the time! Maybe he was just there for a skeet event and got lost! Scu ba (talk) 00:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm with Scu ba on this one. The Oxford definition of assassination attempt is "an attempt to murder someone famous or important." Whether it was politically motivated or not doesn't really matter. CFA💬00:58, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Confirmed assassination attempt by multiple law enforcement agencies including the Secret Service. -- GreenC00:48, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Very clearly an attempted assassination on Trump, and it is also being referred to as such by law enforcement officials. IncompA00:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support This was obviously an assassination attempt, it's crazy the extent people are going to deny it just because the subject is controversial. Deathying (talk) 00:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The AP reports that their sources ("law enforcement officials") have said that the shooting is being investigated as an assassination attempt; they are not calling it one. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support and I don't see the point in waiting either. The AP clearly states its being investigated as an assassination attempt. If circumstances change, it can be moved again. TrueCRaysball | #RaysUp01:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait for more reliable source reporting on what precisely has occurred. Though, I fully suspect it will be reported as an assassination attempt as more details emerge. Otherwise, the current title is a fine placeholder until then. R. G. Checkers talk01:07, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: I agree that this is obviously an assassination attempt. However, the article title policy requires that we follow what reliable sources say. The sources cited in this discussion are: (1) unreliable (such as WP:NYPOST), (2) only calling it an assassination in the headline (for example, [14]), or (3) calling it an "apparent" or "possible" or "suspected" assassination attempt (such as [15]), not confirming that it is one. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support* There is no need to "wait for more reliable sources to confirm what happened." It is very evident in the video that as the popping sounds rang out, Trump holds his hand against his ear and swiftly ducks beneath his podium. Literally every reliable source that has reported on this has reported that Trump was shot in the earlobe, obviously by someone in the crowd who had an assault weapon, one accidental wrist-flinch away from having shot the president. This was literally an attempted assassination. The only argument in favor of waiting is for the amount of edits taking place being potentially disrupted, but other than that, there is no need to wait more than 2-3 days for a name move if you know for sure it's going to happen. TrevortniDesserpedx (talk) 01:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Currently being investigated as an attempted assassination, reported as such on the front page of NYT ("The Secret Service killed a gunman after Donald Trump was rushed off stage in what is being investigated as an assassination attempt.") DigitalIceAge (talk) 01:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. In what universe is this not an assassination attempt? Have you seen the video? Whatever guideline one is relying on to object, WP:IGNORE, as minimizing such an obvious title is clearly a silly idea. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 01:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, but if we wait, it should be clear in a couple days maximum and then it should be definitely changed to include "assassination attempt" in the title.Iljhgtn (talk) 01:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support - The fact that the attempted "plot" to kill Brett Kavanaugh is titled as an assassination, but a high-profile attempted assassination of Trump is not, is absolutely ridiculous. Almost every media network is reporting it as an assassination attempt, and it is being investigated as one. DocZach (talk) 01:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. They shot directly at Trump and struck him. Pretty much all media sources are calling it an assassination attempt. To say that it wasn't an attempt on his life is frankly insanity. Luminism (talk) 01:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support and speedy move' This is not even debatable at this point of the evening. Just move the damn article already. Safiel (talk) 01:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, the name "Assassination attempt of Donald Trump" reads as if Trump attempted to assassinate someone. The current name seems fine, if not renaming to "2024 Donald Trump Assassination Attempt" Vilo2023 (talk) 01:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support as soon as we have reliable sources that cite that the shooter's motives was assassination or most likely assassination. 00101984hjw (talk) 01:59, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. FoxNews and CNN have reported for a few hours that the Secret Service is investigating this as an assassination attempt. If Trump’s head was turned 45 degrees it’d be an assassination not an attempt. Face facts and change it immediately. Zindulee (talk) 02:05, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
BBC and CBS, among others, now reporting that Trump shooting is now officially being investigated as an assassination attempt, so the title change can now go ahead? Editorforwiki15 (talk) 02:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support this will help people searching for the event discover the Wikipedia version of it, as they, as well as news sources, will likely assume it to be an assassination attempt and group it as such. Rcarver3 (talk) 02:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support if the shooting is now being investigated as an assassination attempt. Wait if that's still preemptive, though I imaging that'll be the result eventually. jan Janko (talk) 02:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong opposition to immediate renaming; with no prejudice towards subsequent revisit of proposal Hold off. We should not use a title that assigns a motive until there is verified information that sufficiently evidences said motive. Even if that motive is the one that is easy to assume: we are in the business of facts not assumptions. The current title is the most verifiably accurate option at the moment. SecretName101 (talk) 02:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support and dittoing others. Not only do we have multiple articles at this point but leaving the title as "2024 shooting at a Donald Trump rally" implies political bias. Burned Toast (talk) 02:59, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait for additional reporting about the investigation by credible sources, and update as such information is verified as credible. Ajk1962f (talk) 03:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what we are waiting for anymore. Support the renaming as we have a WP:RS (right here) describing the shooting as an attempt on Trump's life (and also common sense). Bremps...03:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Referring to it as just a "shooting at a Trump rally" both implies that Trump wasn't the target and that it isn't as notable as it clearly is. Vader13289 (talk) 03:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: I sure think it was, but I'm with President Biden: let's have some facts, not opinions. We are not in a rush here. No one's giving out barnstars for the first edits on an "assassination" article. Ravenswing 01:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support The other assassination attempts that are covered on this website use BBC as the source. BBC has called it an assassination attempt, why have we not changed the title yet?-- Flynnwasframed (talk) 01:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support attempted assassination. At this stage it is reasonable to rename. Maybe this was different when the discussion started? gidonb (talk) 01:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support move, and the current title is actually woefully inadequate. If a user with no knowledge of the event saw the title as it is now—“2024 shooting at a Donald Trump rally”—they could (and likely would) easily assume that this was a shooting unconnected to Donald Trump himself, as if it happened in the parking lot of the event or something. Other users have pointed out that sources are calling this an assassination attempt, and the FBI and US Secret Service are investigating it as an assassination attempt. I think we can call a spade a spade. —Delta1989 (talk) (contributions) 02:00, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Adding to recommend: following the style that other Wikipedia articles used for assassination attempts, a better formulation of the title would be Attempted assassination of Donald Trump. --Delta1989 (talk) (contributions) 02:07, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support - One thing is "being investigated as assassination" means they believe it is assassination and that the case are investigated as such. It does NOT mean we should wait until investigation is complete. SYSS Mouse (talk) 02:02, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support but wait. In Russian-language Wikipedia the article which I created already has this name. Here we can wait and then rename. With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 02:03, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support This was obviously an assassination attempt, it's crazy the extent people are going to deny it just because the subject is controversial.
Support I understand that it is not technically confirmed, but all major media outlets are saying it, and sometimes, we just have to use common sense. NathanBru (talk)
Support: certainly better than the current title, that omits the intended target and instead includes a much less relevant setting. StAnselm (talk) 02:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support In addition to the common sense that someone taking a shot at the head of a prominent politican is an assassination attempt, every news organization I have seen is describing it as such. --CaptainTeebs (talk) 02:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, but we should move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump. The year is not necessary as this is the only notable and known attempt on his life. There is also precedent on how such titles are phrased:
Support: What's notable here is that Trump was shot, not that his shooter died, and Attempted assassination is a better title. Win8x (talk) 02:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: What I worry is that this would not be the last. He also got one in 2016 which means there are people who would like to try again. The target page itself is already an disambiguation page, with a link directed at this article, which I feel correct. Also, this article's title should be changed to "2024 Connoquenessing Township shooting" instead to make it more precise -- I believe the place is not too populus and not pested by shooting incidents? -- Patrickov (talk) 02:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This was an obvious attempt to assassinate Trump and the title of the article about the attempted assassination of Donald Trump should reflect that. BlueShirtz (talk) 02:38, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@BlueShirtz:With all due respect I am not saying it's not, but I mean there had been one already in 2016 and I predict there're likely more. Trump is so controversal that there are apparently people who have both the intention and ability to render him dead. Patrickov (talk) 02:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Patrickov Your prediction is just speculation right now. The other article in 2016 is much less notable and Trump was not injured, this page should be renamed to state that it was an Assassination attempt. BlueShirtz (talk) 02:58, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support The AP has reported that it as assaination attempt.[1] The current title makes it seems as if Trump was not the target. The change in title should also not include the year as it makes it seems that there has been more than one attempt and is not consistent with other US president assaination attempts. Grahaml35 (talk) 02:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait 1) Someone died at this event and it wasn't former President Trump. Focusing on Trump exclusively unduly erases or draws attention away from that person. We don't even know his name yet. 2) We don't know for sure that it was an assassination attempt, only that it is being investigated as one. My feeling is that we should call this something like "2024 Butler, Pennsylvania rally shooting." Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:59, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's imperative that Trump is mentioned in the title. While the person who died wasn't Trump, they were (presumably) there because of the Trump rally. Staraction (talk | contribs) 03:02, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support Common sense to me would seem to dictate that if you set up a rifle from a sniping position and shoot at the former President of the United States, you are attempting to kill said former President. This would fit the definition of attempted assassination in every English dictionary known to man. Are we really supposed to believe it plausible that, when a rifle bullet hits the former President, this was a random shooting that just so happened to occur at a former President's rally, or that the gunman was aiming for some random bystanders? I am not aware of any Wikipedia policy that says we debase our innate common sense. CounselForMuffinMan (talk) 03:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait As much as I think this article title is manifestly confounding, we need further reliable reports that the shooting was indeed a confirmed assassination attempt before changing the title. Optakeover(U)(T)(C)03:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Many mass media are already handling it as an assassination attempt, in which Donald Trump was wounded by a bullet in his right ear, a few centimeters more and it is clear that the attacker would have killed him.Rafaelosornio (talk) 03:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 July 2024
Change {{Short description|Non-fatal shooting at rally of former U.S. President Donald Trump}} to {{Short description|Fatal shooting at rally of former U.S. President Donald Trump}} RidgelantRL (talk) 23:26, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Days before the incident, President Joe Biden stated "it's time to put Trump in a bullseye".
This is a long-standing metaphor in politics and other fields. People keep using it because there is no social consensus for not using it. That being so, why quote this? Conservatives who defended Palin using it will now attack Biden, liberals who attacked Palin will now defend Biden. Until someone writes Political speech § Shooting metaphors to offer clarity I see nothing to be gained by putting too much prominence on such remarks.
Thank you. Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 23:29, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are sources and then there are reliable sources. And to be clear, the issue is not that Biden or Palin said such things, it is the linking of such comments to shootings. IMO unless there is clear evidence a shooter was influenced by such a comment such linkage is not RS, it IS OR by a source.
Reliable sources are supposed to engage in original research. That's just journalism. We're not supposed to because we summarize what they say. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:57, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well some guy took that literally it seems. Reliable sources are important here but we have to find a good balance being Wikipedia and all... Woobab (talk) 00:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Single source: "Shooter and one audience member reportedly dead"
AP and Washington Post are reporting this, though it's from only one local DA, and not from the Secret Service or any federal government spokesperson. Take with a grain of salt:
Butler county district attorney Richard Goldinger tells me Trump was grazed by gunfire but is safe. An audience member was killed and the shooter is dead. Another person is in serious condition, the prosecutor said.
It's the same source - Butler County's district attorney – so we should seek more corroboration. We've been down this 'fog of confusion' road before when reporting on breaking news in Wikipedia and need to be more discerning. - Fuzheado | Talk00:02, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean given the hyperreality of the situation, I'm pretty sure the circumstances call to suggest this might be an assassination attempt. Woobab (talk) 00:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah you're right! it could've been anything! someone clambered onto a rooftop overlooking a trump rally with a rifle and shot him in the ear because he didnt wan't to assassinate him! It could've been anything! Scu ba (talk) 00:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to break journalistic standards by prematurely declaring something an assassination attempt before the investigating parties say it for certain, you can do it at a tabloid. Which us here who know about sourcing on Wikipedia wouldn't use as an RS while waiting for actual confirmation. Kingsif (talk) 00:57, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Journalistic? I thought we were not news? Regardless, I don't see what in the world this could be other than an assassination attempt, doesn't take a genius to figure this one out. Kline • talk • contribs01:39, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You know what I mean. Which also answers your second sentence: Wikipedia is not here to figure it out, and anyone who claims they have before the people doing the investigating announce it, isn't an acceptable source. Kingsif (talk) 01:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’m sorry but this is ridiculous, did Dallas in 63 think it was “just a shooting”?
Yeah, and then a formal investigation came to the same conclusion. We'd be having this same discussion if we had the same WP:V policy and were discussing it in real-time back then. Kingsif (talk) 03:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Completely agree. Best deny the label of “assassination” and call it “shooting” instead! Why do we even have this article? Shootings happen every day! Icrin7 (talk) 03:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
100% agree. All sources call this an attempted assassination. It appears that some Wikipedians simply do not want to acknowledge that the attempt occurred and want to deny it. Icrin7 (talk) 03:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Location of incident is in unincorporated Butler County, PA
Pennsylvania does not have unincorporated areas. If it’s outside the city limits of Butler it’s likely part of a township. Dough487200:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is part of Connoquenessing Township. There are unincorporated places in Pennsylvania such as Boyers. Irregardless, it does not seem appropriate to say that it occurred in the city of Butler. Here is a map of Butler County with cities, townships, etc. labeled. Butler County, PennsylvaniaRaskuly (talk) 00:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Raskuly there are no unincorporated places per se in Pennsylvania as per @Dough4872. Boyers is just a community within the incorporatedMarion Township. Townships are incorporated; better cite sources that actually specify Connoquenessing Township instead of "just outside Meridian, Pennsylvania". JWilz12345(Talk|Contrib's.)02:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand. I am not familiar with how Pennsylvania divides itself. My stance then is that this incident should be referred to as being within Connoquenessing Township or near Meridian. Raskuly (talk) 03:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Use of Live or Archived Sources
I noticed the archiving of some live sources. Should we not be simply linking live sources instead for higher accuracy and to prevent future confusion if the old sources report outdated information? Some people may update the content of this Wiki article and not change the outdated sources. Bill Williams00:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not the issue, primary issue is we don't have the rights to the image and it is possible someone at the event might release a similar image to the commons. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 00:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is a completely - completely - different question to whether a photo is itself inherently so historically important to make it fair use. Kingsif (talk) 00:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just because an image of a victim of a shooting is being used by the supporters of that victim doesn't mean the image itself is "inappropriate" for a situation like this NorthropChicken (talk) 00:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Quite the opposite, this is the image the media is using the most (all show different variations of him raising his fist) and therefore it is most informative to readers and most identifiable if this image is used. This image should displayed in the infobox. Bill Williams00:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we have a choice. And you're absolutely right, this image is now the equivalent of the "Hope" poster. I don't think there's anything we can do. Viriditas (talk) 01:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I figured the ambiguity of my comment would confuse people. This photo is now iconic. It will be constantly added back. Go look at it on the main page. It's not going away. Viriditas (talk) 01:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry again for the ambiguity. The main article. However, it is on the main page of every newspaper at this moment. I don't think it is going to go away. Viriditas (talk) 01:57, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can't verify this, but mentioning it here for follow up. This ugly event is going to get uglier and possibly even spiral into conspiracy territory. The interview is interesting if nothing else. Perhaps link to it?Michael Dorosh (talk) 01:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The page feels like it’s written as a dramatic retelling of the “harrowing events of Donald Trump” being filled with flowery language which comes of as heavily biased towards Trump. The articles image description speaks perfectly to this with the unecessary usage of “Bloodied” coming off as a vanity piece more than an informative article, I think this should be reworded and should have higher levels of protection in place as many edit wars will likely be waged on such a hot topic here. InternetEnigma (talk) 01:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
InternetEnigma: For edit requests, you have to suggest alternate language for specific examples, not cite a general problem. For instance, not only is his face generally described as "bloodied," I also personally believe that such a description is accurate and representative. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 01:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are multiple above discussions on inclusion of the image. What do you think would be a good alternative to the image description? Jcoolbro (talk) (c)01:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Australian prime minister Anthony Albanese tweeted that the "incident at former President Trump’s campaign event in Pennsylvania today is concerning and confronting", stating that there is "no place for violence in the democratic process" and that he is relieved to hear that Trump is now safe.
The Apple CEO one I understand, but is adding the response of the leader one of America's staunchest allies (i.e. Australia) really 'reaction farming'? Luminism (talk) 01:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In reference to the above - I also want to note that the New Zealand PM's response was added, and considering the ties Australia has to the US (see AUKUS)... Luminism (talk) 01:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Forget about the Apple CEO one, that's fine if it's not added. But if New Zealand can be added, then I think Australia should be too, given how close Australia's ties are to the US. If your view is that New Zealand is more relevant to Trump and the US than Australia is, then I see no reason for me to waste my time on this point. Luminism (talk) 01:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why are any of them here? Opening the door even more is not a reasonable solution. The article size is snowballing and it is mostly consolidated in this section, just to say "We hope Trump's okay" for every country on earth. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 01:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you, and think we should trim it down and maybe even just include a generic statement about how many leaders condemned it. I just thought it was a reasonable edit request considering the other figures that are present in the section. I see it was removed so I will let it remain how it is. Jcoolbro (talk) (c)01:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Someone tried to assassinate a former (and likely next) US President. Do you really think the reaction & response from other world leaders (in particular, America's greatest ally) isn't relevant?
To avoid WP:WAR I'm not going to edit it again, but I believe it is as relevant as any other of the figures currently listed. However, many leaders have commented on it, and I'm sure many more will. The section doesn't need to be full of reactions from every country in the world. Jcoolbro (talk) (c)01:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I grant you this, but I still notice a trend in these articles: compression. The Bulawayo consolidates the condemnations. The issue is that these do not relate to action necessarily. There is a lack of consistency in those articles' methods of displaying the reactions because it is not Wikipedia's aim to list what "allies" think of everything. If Albanese decides to up his personal security by 500% and the media reports on it as being a result of Trump getting shot, we can put it in. Otherwise, where will it end? Finally, I am telling you to please take this to the correct discussion section. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 01:57, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Compression is fine, but as it stands, the article is not compressed, and as it stands, other world leaders, NZ's foreign minister, former foreign world leaders (including Liz Truss, who was UK PM for less than two months???), and Opposition Leaders (i.e. Canada) are included. How does that make sense to keep? Luminism (talk) 02:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Just because it's in other articles doesn't make it notable. Given that essentially all the reactions are just "we hope he's ok", no point except maybe as a blanket statement. Maybe something like "The incident has gained sympathy from other world leaders. Biden in particular wished for his health, alongside the PM of Australia and NZ." guninvalid (talk) 01:59, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
AR-15 style rifle or other gun
We do not yet know what gun was used, so I think we should leave off any speculation until we know what was used in this shooting. Iljhgtn (talk) 01:31, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cited now in article. I knew this would be confirmed fairly quickly. As more sources are found we can add those to the article too in order to solidify the reliability of that claim. Iljhgtn (talk) 01:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please clarify the currently available information about the alleged shooter
It is clear that the shooter was male, of slim build, with light to fair skin complexion. There are already hundreds of sources confirming this.
As I said, there are hundreds of reputable sources already. I'm planting the seed for further investigation, not the final solution Vitreology (talk) 01:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen it claimed that the Butler Police Department has confirmed that the shooter is (Redacted) who has links to the Antifa extremist group, and that he uploaded a YouTube video saying justice was coming shortly before the attack. I've yet to see any MSM sources with this however, and have also seen it claimed this is a dangerous right-wing conspiracy theory which will be exploited to impose intensified crackdowns on Leftist movements. If the claim is false it may still be relevant as a false claim depending on how widespread it is.
Note that the shooter was outside the security perimeter using an unsecured rooftop. Security experts appear unclear on why such an obvious danger wasn't secured. On the other hand DHS apparently denied Trump's Security Service detail's urgent request for more protection and resources so perhaps they simply didn't have the manpower? 人族 (talk) 02:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not widespread and definitely not confirmed. It was a rumour on Twitter. There are a few sources talking about the false claim, the most in-depth being this one. It was also mentioned in this NBC article. CFA💬02:31, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You aren't doing this alone! We're all scouring the Internet at this point for information, but if you find some faster than people can add it, you can let us know! Staraction (talk | contribs) 02:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Requested edit
Remove the paragraph at the bottom of background, the one about the vote share in the 2020 election. Paragraph is irrelevant. guninvalid (talk) 01:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This one: "In 2020, Trump won 65 percent of the vote in Butler, Pennsylvania—the site of the rally—compared to Biden's 33%.[13]" guninvalid (talk) 01:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe, but it's not relevant to the shooting. At the end of the day, it would'nt've mattered whether this happened in a county that voted Trump or Biden or Santa Claus. It may speak to why Trump had the rally there in the first place, thus being relevant to the rally, but the shooting has almost nothing to do with it. guninvalid (talk) 01:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm mostly considering that we might want to add more information about the rally in the future, when things have stabilized a bit. Better to include the information now so people don't have to go searching for it later. But, if another editor wants to remove it, I won't object. Staraction (talk | contribs) 02:00, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"The shooting is being investigated as an attempted assassination. It is the first time that a U.S. president or presidential candidate was injured in an attempted assassination since Ronald Reagan was shot in 1981."
The first sentence suggests that it is not definitive whether it was an attempted assassination ("investigated"). The second sentence implies that it was an attempted assassination as a matter of fact. JDiala (talk) 01:48, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
suggest change to something along the lines of "It is the first time that a U.S. president or presidential candidate was injured in a shooting since Ronald Reagan was shot in 1981." Jcoolbro (talk) (c)01:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I like this change better. I actually think the live update that AP provided stating, "This appears to be the first assassination attempt since Reagan was shot in 1981", is incorrect; an assassination attempt against Obama occurred in 2011, albeit without injuries to the president. [24]Staraction (talk | contribs) 01:57, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can anyone find a quote in the article that explicitly confirms the number of injured as being greater than or equal to 3? I can't due to the paywall Trade (talk) 01:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure it's really necessary. Pretty hard to dispute given that Trump was injured and 2 died. Or maybe I'm just a silly little bean guninvalid (talk) 01:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From various sources, we have: Trump injured; shooter killed; one rally attendee dead; one do. seriously wounded; one do. slightly wounded. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 01:57, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reverted. Disputed and not supported by RS. mass shootings in the US typically involve more than 4 victims AND assassination attempts are typically not categorized as such. Kcmastrpc (talk) 02:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was confirmed by the Secret Service. A mass shooting is a shooting where there are multiple victims. Your number of 4 is completely arbitrary. CFA💬02:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, both sources qualify, and I've added it to the body of the article. I won't mess with the map for now since I don't want to mess it up, but another editor who is more skilled than I am with those should. Staraction (talk | contribs) 02:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neither of these sources are reliable. Twitter is not a reliable source. WP:NEWSMAX is also a deprecated source. If you can provide a reliable source for this information, please let me know and I'll add it. Staraction (talk | contribs) 02:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not using twitter as an article source, but it is valid for discussions
To be fair - the article never states that Trump was hit by a bullet, only that he was injured. If more information comes out stating he was hit by glass, then we can add it; right now, I think the best course of action is to just leave it. Staraction (talk | contribs) 02:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the article never states that Trump was hit by a bullet, only that he was injured
Why are changes being made based on twitter posts from Newsmax reporters, citing reporting from Newsmax? Unreliable sourcing nested within unreliable sourcing.
This article only quotes Trump on Truth social stating so. Separate from the speaker and site's credibility overall, in all cases I wouldn't necessarily take such a statement as definitively credible compared to a scenario I've seen (no better sourced) reported that he was hit by glass shrapnel from a shot teleprompter screen
the time before now that I checked AP was maintaining language that it was unclear if Trump had been injured by a bullet or in the response
now AP and BBC both seem to be preferring "Trump says he was shot" over separately affirming that as a fact
it states it as a fact in the headline but provides no support in the body beyond quoting Trump saying so on Truth social
while admittedly, I would think doctors at hospital would have clarified the matter to him, it is far from impossible that he could be genuinely convinced he was injured directly by a bullet and also be wrong about that fact (e.g. having been hit by glass shrapnel or having heard a bullet and then sustained injury during his and SS response in quick succession)
the source of his injuries presumably _will_ be established on public record sooner or later, but has not been to several major media outlets' satisfaction
(and while I am by no means an expert, photos I have seen do not seem clearly consistent with a bullet wound, with his auricle seeming intact and source of bleeding unclear) Donald Guy (talk) 03:05, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From the body, first line: "Donald Trump was shot in the ear during a Saturday campaign rally, streaking the Republican presidential candidate's blood across his face and prompting his security agents to swarm him, before he emerged and pumped his fist in the air, appearing to mouth the words" --TocMan (talk) 03:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From the link I provided: "News headlines—including subheadlines—are not a reliable source." Emphasis mine. It can certainly be debated, but IMHO that first line is serving as the subheading overview and once the actual article content gets round to the shooting, it's "Trump said". Kingsif (talk) 03:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't precede the article. It IS the article. It's after the byline. Do you have a policy you can point to that backs you up on this? --TocMan (talk) 03:31, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, the first paragraph reads: "Donald Trump was shot in the ear during a Saturday campaign rally." CFA💬03:16, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree the claim now appears in the lede of some versions of the Reuters story. It is still not a claim supported elsewhere in the article.
It seems to me a majority of sources (AP, BBC, CNN, NYT, Fox News) are proactively avoiding making the claim (vs only Infowars and Breitbart seen by me making it outside of this retuters lede)
I think that photos (which could definitely be misleading, e.g. injury obscured by blood) seem to potentially refute the claim and thats not an absurd thing to consider
It seems odd that there is not e.g. a law enforcement source that I've seen independently affirm it - but it might just be "active investigation", etc. thing
I sort of think it doesn't matter because that he was per se shot is likely to be the popular impression regardless of if it is exactly true, but also … I kind of think it matters specifically because it may end up being a common misconception Donald Guy (talk) 03:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Redacted) shooter?
Hi I saw this info here [link to X/Twitter redacted. Daniel (talk) 02:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)] identifying the shooter as (Redacted), maybe add into article if there's more evidence? InfiniteSword (talk) 02:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, it makes it seem like we are going to list every country with a reaction to the shooting, which we are not. Also, I don't know if there's such a precedent in other articles. Jcoolbro (talk) (c)02:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They aren't when they just mention that they don't believe a thing was good. That's like if I was mentioned in an article on the penny because I gave a high school presentation on them being useless. It doesn't impact what the Treasury thinks about them. It's insubstantial. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 02:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are 200 countries, give or take. Most leaders will have a take on a shooting. Heaven forbid we include them all. Bremps...03:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This article is a mess right now. Give it 24 hours and things will calm down a bit. Then we'll be able to handle sections like that. That being said, Abductive, mind explaining? I believe all these reactions have no business being here, at any rate. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 02:38, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Editors despise those flag salads, and the whole section is being discussed above, where consensus is developing that it is unencyclopedic. Abductive (reasoning)02:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I added it back because it certainly belongs in the body along with other reactions. He is the richest man in the world and previously endorsed Democrats, it's certainly notable. Bill Williams02:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No it isn't. There will be thousands of reactions by famous and influential people condemming the shooting. It's not like anyone is going to actively support it. We do not need a mention of every person who reacts to the shooting. That would not be due weight at all. CFA💬02:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Raised his fist - mentioned four times in the article?
The article mentions Trump raising his fist after the shooting four times, which may unintentionally emphasize it as a patriotic gesture. This repetition not only skews the neutrality of the article but also assigns undue significance to a single action. For a balanced and objective portrayal, it would be prudent to either reduce the frequency of this mention or remove it altogether if it does not add significant information to the narrative. Instead, a more comprehensive view of his actions, including the repeated insistence on picking up his shoes, should be presented. Such adjustments would ensure the article adheres to Wikipedia's neutrality guidelines by avoiding the overemphasis of specific gestures that might be interpreted as patriotically charged. Worstbull (talk) 02:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Numerous news outlets and the most prominent photographs talk about him raising his fist and nothing about pumping his shoes. The article simply says he pumped his fist for multiple seconds, which is exactly what he did and what news outlets (like Reuters cited) say. Bill Williams02:59, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, buried in the articles and not featured prominently in a single news story. The fist pumping is, however, and is shown in all major news outlet photos. You're adding some patriotic angle when it's basic facts and notability. Bill Williams03:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A google search for "let me get my shoes" trump results in 70 articles from the past hour, mentioning that. Examples are listed above. Worstbull (talk) 03:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some whataboutism doesnt change that publications like Reuters highlight in the first few sentences that he pumped a fist, while zero highlight anything about his shoes in the first few paragraphs. Bill Williams03:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Either way, there is no justification for mentioning this four times in the article. That's clearly biased, adding undue significance to a single action. And needs to be cleaned up. Worstbull (talk) 03:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly disagree. Someone who might be experiencing some level of shock and is not a medical expert and moreover cannot see the site of the injury is not an authority on its cause
While he likely has been apprised of the cause, either confirming or refuting bullet damage by qualified experts, he did not make any such sourced claim and has publicly been a less-than-reputable interlocutor in the past
If it is a fact, other USSS/FBI/etc officials will state it. And despite it being privileged information in principal under HIPAA, one imagines leaks from medical sources will also find their way to press
AP, BBC, CNN, Fox News are all running with Trump injured and trump says he was shot. None affirm it. I have only seen the claim of him having been shot repeated explicitly by that one Reuters headline (without more support in body), InfoWars, and Breitbart Donald Guy (talk) 03:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is supported in the body. It reads: "Donald Trump was shot in the ear during a Saturday campaign rally, streaking the Republican presidential candidate's blood across his face and prompting his security agents to swarm him." CFA💬03:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Add comments from Libertarian Party candidate Chase Oliver
Comments from the Oliver should probably be added to the Responses category.
Might read something like "Libertarian Party presidential candidate Chase Oliver extended well wishes to the former president, saying 'Political violence is never the answer, no matter how divided we may be.'" Abbyfluoroethane (talk) 02:57, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There seems to be a reference about a Secret Service sniper neutralizing the alleged attacker, but no location or position information is included in that material. -- Mikeblas (talk) 03:05, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. This is synthesis and hence I believe it is original research and should remain out of the article at this time. Daniel (talk) 03:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
International Reactions
Few world leaders have commented onbthe incident latest being Narendra Modi Prime Minister of India his statement should be added and any other world leader that has comment on the incident. DataCrusade1999 (talk) 03:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Recently, an edit was made that added list-defined references, which broke much of the referencing on the page. I oppose converting this to LDR for this reason and, per MOS:CITEVAR, we should continue using the inline template references. I will work to try to restore the content added between the LDR-inserting edit and the reverting edit. — Red-tailed hawk(nest)03:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've gotten more edit conflicts in the last two hours than in the last two months and I'm not even trying to do any politics stuff I'm just fixing the formatting 😔
@Red-tailed hawk: The reference formatting script has an option to remove LDR, if it is that big of a deal as to warrant a gigantic revert, but I don't know why it would be helpful to put them all inline -- the source code for this page with all the refs inlined was completely unreadable. jp×g🗯️03:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If it were all bare URLs or light citation templates it'd be one thing, but with the archive URLs (which is the only way for people to verify the (subscription required)s) it's a total disaster. Like, this is the source for a three-sentence passage:
According to Butler County district attorney Richard Goldinger, an alleged perpetrator and an audience member were killed.<ref>{{Cite news |title=Butler County District Attorney Richard Goldinger said two people are dead, including an apparent shooter. |url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/13/2024-election-campaign-updates-biden-trump-rally/ |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240713232323/https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/07/13/2024-election-campaign-updates-biden-trump-rally/ |archive-date=July 13, 2024 |access-date=July 13, 2024 |newspaper=[[The Washington Post]]}}</ref> At least one other person is in critical condition.<ref name="casualties">{{Cite news |last1=Stein |first1=Chris |last2=Lawther |first2=Fran |date=July 13, 2024 |title=Donald Trump is 'fine' after being rushed off stage at rally amid possible gunshots – latest updates |url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2024/jul/13/trump-rally-gun-shots-pennsylvania-latest-updates |access-date=July 13, 2024 |work=the Guardian |language=en-GB |issn=0261-3077 |archive-date=July 14, 2024 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240714015033/https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2024/jul/13/trump-rally-gun-shots-pennsylvania-latest-updates |url-status=live }}</ref><ref name=PowellShelton>{{Cite web|last1=Powell|first1=Tori B.|last2=Shelton|first2=Shania|last3=Meyer|first3=Matt|last4=D'Antonio|first4=Isabelle|last5=Tucker|first5=Emma|last6=Yeung|first6=Jessie|date=July 13, 2024|title=Live updates: Trump injured in shooting at Pennsylvania rally that left at least 1 dead {{!}} CNN Politics|url=https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/election-biden-trump-07-13-24/index.html|access-date=July 13, 2024|website=CNN|language=en|archive-date=July 13, 2024|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240713222828/https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/election-biden-trump-07-13-24/index.html|url-status=live}}</ref> Rep. [[Ronny Jackson]] (R-Texas) told Fox News that his nephew was shot in the neck.<ref>{{Cite web |last=McGraw |first=Meridith |last2=Allison |first2=Natalie |date=July 13, 2024 |title=Trump ‘felt the bullet ripping through the skin’ during campaign rally shooting |url=https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/13/trump-rushed-off-stage-at-pennsylvania-rally-after-possible-gunfire-00167977 |url-status=live |access-date=July 13, 2024 |website=Politico |archive-date=July 13, 2024 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240713235642/https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/13/trump-rushed-off-stage-at-pennsylvania-rally-after-possible-gunfire-00167977 }}</ref>
I mean, there's probably a solid month of edit wars already booked for this article, so I don't know if there is space here for a reference format argument. I guess my screed here is that it's extremely stupid that we have to deal with unreadable shit like this when there's a perfectly-functional alternative because nobody can be arsed to fix basic functionality in VE. It's especially dumb because it's not like LDR is some newfangled thing -- it was already four years old when VisualEditor was introduced, and VisualEditor itself is now eleven years old. jp×g🗯️03:26, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No -- it had nothing to do with that. The byte difference was because the templates were vertically spaced, e.g. instead of
<ref>{{Cite web |last=McGraw |first=Meridith |last2=Allison |first2=Natalie |date=July 13, 2024 |title=Trump ‘felt the bullet ripping through the skin’ during campaign rally shooting |url=https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/13/trump-rushed-off-stage-at-pennsylvania-rally-after-possible-gunfire-00167977 |url-status=live |access-date=July 13, 2024 |website=Politico |archive-date=July 13, 2024 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20240713235642/https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/13/trump-rushed-off-stage-at-pennsylvania-rally-after-possible-gunfire-00167977 }}</ref>
they were formatted like
<ref>{{Cite web
|last = McGraw
|first = Meridith
|last2 = Allison
|first2 = Natalie
|date = July 13, 2024
|title = Trump ‘felt the bullet ripping through the skin’ during campaign rally shooting
|url = https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/13/trump-rushed-off-stage-at-pennsylvania-rally-after-possible-gunfire-00167977
|url-status = live
|access-date = July 13, 2024
|website = Politico
|archive-date = July 13, 2024
|archive-url = https://web.archive.org/web/20240713235642/https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/13/trump-rushed-off-stage-at-pennsylvania-rally-after-possible-gunfire-00167977
}}</ref>
. So that the vertical space increase didn't make the source code even more impossible to read or modify, I reformatted it to use WP:LDR, so that all the references would be moved to the bottom of the article instead of being plopped directly between the sentences of prose text. The reason this doesn't work in Visual Editor is because the Wikimedia Foundation has decided it doesn't matter if the default editor on Wikipedia can work without breaking when used to edit Wikipedia articles. jp×g🗯️03:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Mass shootings in the United States in the 2020s
I added this template at the bottom of the article because it qualifies as such according to several sources, yet it has been removed twice. To me it seems like an appropriate thing to add as it has been so far reported that there were at least five casualties. One attendee was killed, two attendees were injured, Donald Trump was injured, and the perpetrator was killed. Excluding the perpetrator that means there were four victims of this attack which meets the criteria of the definition of a "mass shooting" as described by sources such as Mass Shooting Tracker, Gun Violence Archive, and Stanford University.
I've seen that photo elsewhere. I'd want a bit more certainty that it's a Federal official who took that photo, since state and local police were also involved in the response. — Red-tailed hawk(nest)03:26, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here is the complete statement from Biden, as released by the White House. Part of this is already in the article. I can't understand why the text below was deleted. I will put it here so that an administrator can add it, if possible:
"I have been briefed on the shooting at Donald Trump’s rally in Pennsylvania.
I’m grateful to hear that he’s safe and doing well. I’m praying for him and his family and for all those who were at the rally, as we await further information.
Jill and I are grateful to the Secret Service for getting him to safety. There’s no place for this kind of violence in America. We must unite as one nation to condemn it."
How is there ANY Wikipedia article on this topic considering, at this early point (less than 6 hours), there isn't any reliable reporting of facts from investigative sources. Editing of this article should be locked for at least a few days until the real facts are reported. For cryin' out loud… This is a very good example why educational institutions do not allow student researchers use Wikipedia as a citable source for their class papers. — TadgStirkland401(TadgTalk)03:38, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, as you state, there are certain lines that this article has already passed. For instance, we can be sure that some shooting event did occur today, and that it was at a Trump rally, based off the reliable sources cited. As such, we ought to cover it, since it meets notability. Editing of this article is already locked to extended-protected reviewers due to fear of vandalism. Finally, I don't see how your point about class papers is relevant to meaningful critique of the content in the article. It may be true, but we are Wikipedia, and it's not necessarily a bad thing that Wikipedia isn't used as a citable source for class papers. Staraction (talk | contribs) 03:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that there is going to be a lot of things written in this article that will later be altered in one way or another and there will potentially be bad actors in spite of the raised article protection it would be absurd to completely lock an article from editing when undoubtedly there are many people across the world visiting it right now. Raskuly (talk) 03:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Trimming down the reactions section
I have made a few edits trimming down this section. It appears to be a bunch of copy paste tweets and other irrelevant information. The primary topic of the article is the shooting not the reactions. SKAG123 (talk) 03:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done per other similar figures reactions being present. Jcoolbro (talk) (c) 01:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
Not done I don't beleive we should add random CEO's and all world leaders nessisarily. See Talk:2024 shooting at a Donald Trump rally#Please let's not turn the article into a reaction farm Jcoolbro (talk) (c) 01:33, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
