Talk:Canada

Notice: This overview article is already too long. It is not intended to discuss all issues related to Canada, but serve only as an introduction. Before you add material to this article, please consider adding it instead to one of the many "main" articles linked from this article, e.g., Politics of Canada, Geography of Canada, etc. Thank you.

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Discussion of Canada's official name: Canada's name ~ Official Name 1

Russia-Germans in Canada

Who know anything about German villages in Canada? I think taht a lot of Germans are Russia-Germans in Canada!? Mostly they are Mennonites or Hutterer. Are they integrate in Canada? Here in Germany the Russia-Germans are handled like foreign people, although Germany is thei country of origin.

I would like to know more about Russia-Germans or German settlements in Canada! Friede sei mit Euch, Simon MAYER

You can read the German-Canadian article for a start. While some Mennonite and Hutterite groups do very much maintain a distinct culture, most Russo-Germans have largelly assimilated into Canadian culture. - SimonP 18:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Article layout

According to the Wikipedia:Guide to Layout style guide, Notes should go before References and the navigation bar should be at the very end of the article. "See also" can be omitted. heqs 08:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The Guide says the Notes can equally well go after the References, which I strongly recommend. The Notes are otherwise confusing (since they link to sentences in the text). Rjensen 09:04, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I know it's just a guide, but where does it say that? It's actually because notes link to sentences in the text that they should follow the text as closely as possible -- less far to travel when clicking, scrolling, or flipping back and forth. heqs 09:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The Guide says "Common appendix sections (in the preferred order; it is equally valid for "References" to precede "Notes". People don't scroll back and forth--the browser should take them to the endnote and back effortlessly. In my opinion, the references/bibliography is an essential part of the article. Rjensen 09:54, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I often scroll, especially near the end of the text when checking citations intently/carefully. And these articles do end up on paper sometimes. heqs 10:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Manitoba bilingual?

According to our Manitoba article, the province is officially bilingual. We should fix that if it isn't true. Jkelly 04:08, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

And under the Bilingualism in Canada article, only New Brunswick is. I've never heard of Manitoba being officially bilingual. Hmmm.... -- Jeff3000 04:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it's policy rather than law. See here.

Found some info here here. There is a major difference between Manitoba and New Brunswick (New Brunswick has it in the constitution), but the thing is, what is the definition of an "official" language. Here's the relevent quote:

"Everyone has the right to use English and French in the legislatures and courts of Quebec, New Brunswick and Manitoba; Laws must be enacted in both languages in Quebec, New Brunswick and Manitoba; At New Brunswick's request, English and French were included in the Canadian Charter of Right and Freedoms as the province's official languages. New Brunswick, therefore, has a constitutional obligation to provide government services in both languages; and In 1993, the Parliament of Canada and the Legislature of New Brunswick adopted a bilateral amendment to the Constitution reflecting the concept of the equality of New Brunswick's linguistic communities.

It seems to me that Manitoba is like Quebec, they are allowed to speak in both languages in the provincial legislature, and laws have to be enacted in both laws, but it's not an official bilingualism. If Manitoba was considered officially bilingual, then Quebec would as well, and I think Quebec is considered not bilingual. -- Jeff3000 04:20, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Hm. I'm slightly tempted to footnote that here. Manitoba's article should probably be clarified and referenced. Jkelly 04:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I think a footnote is appropriate here. And as you suggested, the statement in the Manitoba article has to be clarified. I'll add a note to this article. -- Jeff3000 04:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

User:Bearcat made an adjustment at Manitoba. Jkelly 17:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The province of Manitoba was declared to be Officially Bilingual under the Manitoba Act. The case Reference re Manitoba Language Rights says that the supreme court upheld that. Although ever since the Manitoba Schools Question, english is the major language of the province. It's officially bilingual under the BNA, 1867 and the Manitoba Act, but not under the Charter.Royalguard11 01:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

References

Rjensen has first deleted locations in the references, which is just bad style, then he changed the references to delete some references, make the sectioning not match the article sectioning and added another reference. I don't mind adding another reference, but please do show what fact that reference covers that other references don't, also please don't erase other references which do cover facts as can be seen from the talk pages from around 2 months ago, when the drive went on to find references. -- Jeff3000 23:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Rjensen, what is up with putting a reference in four places. What facts does it cover, that is not covered by other references. I will be removing at least three of them in the coming days if no good purpose for the references are there. -- Jeff3000 23:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Two points: location of publisher is misleading to users about half the time--it tells people to get hard-to find editions. In the age of Internet it is rarely useful. 2) As for the Canadian Encyclopedia, I used it to add information in the various sections, so it needs to be included. Rjensen 23:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

We had this discussion previously, having the location of the publisher is correct academic style, and is not misleading. The publisher's themselves indicate it in their books. Secondly, you have not indicated as of yet which precise facts you used the Canadian Encyclopedia for. I'm waiting for them. -- Jeff3000 23:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

use of Can Ency most recently for details on territory government. For most if the article to fact check assertions made, esp in history section. It's doubtless the single most valuable reference book and editors should prefer it instead of old textbooks. Rjensen 06:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

That it is the most valuable reference book is your point of view. Given that you used it for the territories section I will be keeping it only in that one. There is no use for it to be added multiple times. -- Jeff3000 13:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

It is inaccurate and outdated on the powers of the Territories. The Yukon government now exercises all provincial-type powers except for criminal prosecutions with the passage of the 2002 Yukon Act. I am not sure of the situation in the NWT and Nunavut, but Nunavut was creaed as a result of land claims negotiations, and I believe they do control their land. Each territory is in charge of its own income and other taxation. So the sentence should be reverted to its original version about the territories having "somewhat" fewer powers than the provinces. Luigizanasi 18:07, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Based on Luigizanasi's comments, I have removed the new territories wording, and removed the Canadiana Encyclopedia as a reference. -- Jeff3000 18:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

While there's no guideline about it that I know of, I'm not sure that other encyclopedias are ideal references for our articles. In this case, it isn't as bad as citing Encarta's article (which I've seen done), because we're sending the reader to an encyclopedia specific to our subject where they will be able to get more information. But it still isn't helpful for someone who wants to get to a citable source from our article, because other encyclopedias are also third-party summaries rather than secondary sources. Jkelly 17:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The reference for the 1985 encyclopedia is well out of date. This was true "federal government controls lands, natural resources, taxation, and claims of native rights" then but not any more. The Nunavut Government taxes people at 4, 7, 9 or 11.5%. We also have a property taxes. None of the other things apply either. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 19:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Change of emphasis in Military section

The emphasis in the military section was changed, and I changed it back. Such a change needs discussion first. This is the new version

"In addition to major participation in the Second Boer War, the First World War, the Second World War, and the Korean War, Canada has maintained forces in international missions under the United Nations and NATO since 1950, including peacekeeping missions, various missions in the former Yugoslavia, and support to coalition forces in the First Gulf War. Since 2001, Canada has had troops deployed in Afghanistan as part of the U.S. stabilization force and the UN-authorized, NATO-commanded International Security Assistance Force. Canada's Disaster Assistance Response Team (DART) has participated in three major relief efforts in the past two years; the two-hundred member team has been deployed in relief operations after Hurricane Katrina in September 2005, after the Kashmir earthquake in October 2005 and after the December 2004 tsunami in South Asia."

and this is the old version

"In addition to their peacekeeping missions, Canadian forces have served in various military actions including World War I, World War II, the Korean War, and the First Gulf War. Canada has also participated in a variety of capacities in NATO operations such as in the former Yugoslavia. Since 2001, Canada has had troops deployed in Afghanistan as part of the U.S. stabilization force and the UN-authorized, NATO-commanded International Security Assistance Force. Canada's Disaster Assistance Response Team (DART) has participated in three major relief efforts in the past two years; the two-hundred member team has been deployed in relief operations after Hurricane Katrina in September 2005, after the Kashmir earthquake in October 2005 and after the December 2004 tsunami in South Asia."

I really believe the old (and current version) is more appropriate. -- Jeff3000 00:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not. Canada had 1 million people in uniform in the Second World War compared to a handful of UN missions. The Canadian Army as an institution is devoted to warfare, the article makes it seem that the military is a peacekeeper first, and a military second. At any rate, the references to WWI and WW II are wrong - all Canadian official histories use "First World War" and "Second World War" so I am going to change those, as this is a Canadian article.Michael Dorosh 00:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The sentence that sticks in the craw is "In addition to their peacekeeping missions...." Canada fought a couple of wars. It reads as very silly given the enormous national effort that went into the world wars, and the relative anonymity of Peacekeeping missions, which most Canadians don't even know are happening.Michael Dorosh 00:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

No doubt Canada played large parts in WWI and WWII (which BTW I've seen in Canadian articles), but since the 1960's till the Afghanistan mission, Canada has been known for its peacekeeping. -- Jeff3000 00:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

If the paragraph is about the 20th Century, then give the components their proper weight. If it is about post 1960 Canada, then delete those references altogether. As it is, the paragraph states the affair in a ridiculous manner. The description of the world wars as "various military actions" rather than the events that shaped Canada as a nation is jarring and unhistoric, and I'll reiterate, Peacekeeping - which hasn't been done by Canadians in any major way in 10 or 15 years, if Lew Mackenzie is to be believed - has never, ever been the primary focus of the Canadian military. Even at the height of Canadian peacekeeping, Canada had more men deployed in West Germany training to fight the next world war. As for Canadian articles using the "WWI" descriptors, they are incorrect. See Stacey, Granatstein or Bercuson for the proper nomenclature.Michael Dorosh 00:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, as was evidenced just a couple months ago, most of the Canadian public think that Canada is involved only in peacekeeping; they were under the wrong impression that the Afghanistan mission was a peacekeeping one. -- Jeff3000 00:30, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

So your proposal then is to pander to popular misconception rather than state facts as they truly are? Not sure I understand that. Don't you think an encyclopedia article should then educate on how things are rather than parrot how people might wish them to be? If so, the emphasis needs to be taken off "peacekeeping" since Canada really doesn't do that anymore.Michael Dorosh 00:34, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Just curious Jeff, but do you have any personal experience with the Canadian Military? Perhaps if you established some credentials for trying to dictate how this section is presented would help.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.28.146.208 (talk • contribs)

That is not at all how things work around here. We're profoundly uninterested in the personal experience of our editors. We're interested solely in summarising mainstream views from reliable sources. Using personal experience to inform one's editing fails our Wikipedia:No original research policy. Jkelly 01:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying that the truth or credibility of posters is not an objective of Wikipedia, now I understand why I have seen in the news that some university professors have started to refuse papers citing Wikipedia as a source. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.28.146.208 (talk • contribs) .

Personal experience to the side, it would be inappropriate to paint the Canadian Forces as a primarily peacekeeping organization - the primary purpose is warfare the very same as American and British armed forces, as stated by the Canadian government and Department of National Defense. In order to keep the NPOV the facts should be stated truthfully rather than phrased in a way that contradicts the mission statement of the Canadian Forces. What is the more reliable source, public-misconception or the official statement of the Canadian Forces and DND? I invite you to this link [1] which describes the CF as a Defense oriented organization. Zertz 03:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

While this isn't really the place to have the discussion, I invite you to consider the consequences of accepting assertions of expertise from anonymous people on the Internet. As for the paragraph in question, I suggest that "In addition to their peacekeeping missions, Canadian forces have served in various military actions including the First World War, Second World War..." does strike an odd tone, and that it is reasonable to discuss a rephrasing that doesn't make the World Wars seem like an afterthought. Jkelly 03:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The beginning of the current paragraph which states "In addition to their peacekeeping missions" makes sense since it connects the second paragraph, which deals with Canada's historical peacekeeping missions, and it's current reduction in peacekeeping activites, to the paragraph in question. It's not stating that peacekeeping is the paramount activity. It's just good prose and style to connect paragraphs to previous paragraphs. -- Jeff3000 03:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

True, paragraphs have to link to their predecessors but they must also be internally consistent. The current text seems to be saying that the Canadian military is a peacekeeping organisation and that its participation in the major wars of the last century was merely a harmless aberration. That may suit those who wish to portray the military as a harmless organisation worthy of funding for moral reasons but it's far from a reflection of reality. In addition, describing the world wars as "military actions" grossly understates their significance. -- Derek Ross | Talk 03:27, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

How is it doing that? In fact the previous paragraph concludes that Canada's peackeeping activities have greatly declined, the beginning of the paragraph in question just connects the two paragraphs. -- Jeff3000 03:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

It's doing that by emphasising peaceful activities and downplaying warlike activities. And the previous para is just a listing of the strength of Canada's armed forces, so it's not a great connection... -- Derek Ross | Talk 03:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Then why not change the paragraphs around - as I did - to state our involvement in the wars, first, and then discuss peacekeeping. It would have the advantage of shortening the section also rather than mentioning peacekeeping in two separate paragraphs.Michael Dorosh 03:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Because the first part of the section is about foreign relations which continues from the politics section, the military part of the section continues from the foreign relations. -- Jeff3000 03:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

So presumably that means that the whole section needs a rewrite rather than just the one paragraph. Oh dear. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:05, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd just like to clarify that: "Thank you for clarifying that the truth or credibility of posters is not an objective of Wikipedia, now I understand why I have seen in the news that some university professors have started to refuse papers citing Wikipedia as a source." Is not my comment. -- Perhaps we should consider: "The Canadian Forces have served in several wars from the Second Boer War, including the First and Second World Wars and in Korea. In addition, Canadian military contributions were integral in numerous peacekeeping operations in the second half of the 20th Century including Bosnia. The Canadian Forces currently has a large military force in Afghanistan responsible for the Khandahar region." -- Although of course, it must be revised as my proposed version is not especially well written. -- Zertz 04:03, 23 June 2006 (UTC) -- Post Script: Sorry about the error I caused in posting, funked up the talk page. I think I've fixed it.

That would be okay as a rewrite. Mind you, I thought that Michael Dorosh's formulation was quite acceptable too. -- Derek Ross | Talk 03:30, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I also dispute the stated claim that Canada has attempted to "maintain a leading position" in Peacekeeping operations - Canada has fallen behind many nations in terms of number of peacekeepers deployed- even Germany has more peacekeepers abroad than Canada does.Michael Dorosh 03:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm actually a big fan of Michael Dorosh's paragraph. Anyone else concur?--Zertz 03:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, count me in. That section's been needing a tweak like this. heqs 05:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Works for me. Jeff seems bent on solidifying the false notion that we, in the CF, are not soldiers, but peacekeepers (small p). We are warriors and our job is war. Not peacekeepers, which is nothing more than a secondary task to keep us occupied, while we await the government's mandate to push our Canadian policy by force. It's time for our citizens to wake up, smell the coffee and move into the 21st century. Tree hugging and birkestocks are passe, as is their vision for the military. Dave

Canada on the main page

Yay to Canada on the front page! It would have kinda been nice if they had waited until July 1, though. Oh well :). --Q Canuck 00:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Canada Day comes early! Our home and native land! -- Samir धर्म 02:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

2nd that...or 3rd =] LG-犬夜叉 03:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

My theory is that this was chosen for today because yesterday's article was Ku Klux Klan. After something evil it's a relief to have a feel-good article on the main page. Anyway, w00t for Canada! CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 05:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I was also glad to see Canadia (shame they spelt it wrong) on there and I'm not even Canadian but British. Good read too. Well done folks. Absinthe, Global warming, Ku Klux Klan, Canada is quite an odd progression mind. Jellypuzzle | ^Talk 09:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Canada obtained sovereignty from the United Kingdom???

Can the writer clarify this? Those who want to become Canadian citizens should swear allegiance to the Queen of England and become also her subjects; or contracts signed with the Government of Canada are in fact, signed with Her Majesty, etc. I as a Canadian don't see any problem with these factes, but to call these sovereignty?

Elizabeth is Queen of Canada seperately from her role as Queen of the United Kingdom. One person, many crowns. --Q Canuck 03:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The last Queen of England died in 1707 so best of luck swearing allegiance to her... -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Unclear sentence

Hey, I was reading over the histroy section and this caught my attention: Canada automatically entered the First World War in 1914 with Britain's declaration of war, and sent formed divisions (composed almost entirely of volunteers) to the Western Front to fight as a national contingent. Casualties were so high that Prime Minister Robert Borden forced through conscription in 1917, which was extremely unpopular in Quebec, leading to his Conservative party losing support in Quebec. Although the Liberals were deeply divided over conscription, they pulled together and became the dominant political party. Something seems to be missing in the sentence about conscription leading to Borden's unpopularity in Quebec. Either that, or its just worded improperly. I'm not sure what the original intent was for this sentence so I'll let the author fix it up.(Cabin Tom 05:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC))

I think I've fixed it now. Thanks -- Jeff3000 05:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)