Talk:Charles George Gordon

View of Chinese historians

Chinese historians treat Gordon with revulsion and brand him a cruel tyrant. The problem lies in considering what was the legitimate government in China at that time - To call the heavenly kingdom agitation a revolt is a little tendentious. Perhaps we should mention the Chinese point of view too.

The article on Robert Hart that the page links to is about a different Robert Hart.

What's going on with this paedophile thing? It seems highly improbable, so I'm going to remove it. In the unlikely event that it's genuine, perhaps the author could explain here.

I put it back. Although I don't have the book in question to check again, the quote seems unlikely to be faked, and in line with Hyam's specialties. If you want to ask him about it directly, here's his Cambridge University homepage - http://www.magd.cam.ac.uk/people/fellows/hyam.html. Stan 05:01, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Military Historian Frank M. Richardson, "Mars Without Venus", published by William Blackford, Endinburgh 1981 will supply details supporting the fact that Gordon was bisexual or homosexual. Kitchener too. It's not slander -- it's true.--Kstern999 06:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Slander removal

To call Gordon a pederast and then say he didn't act on it is to of misunderstand the evil of pederasty. The section in question was written (or quoted, I should say) by an anonymous user, out of context. This user seems to have read this odd book by a professor specializing in a kind of archeological psychology. Vague assertions in hand, he seeks to slander those involved in the Sudan Campaign. He did the same thing to the Horatio Kitchener article(see its talk page). I'd say this indicates some kind of axe to grind. Considering that these men, along with Baden Powell (Who has been similarly slandered elsewhere), came from the time and society that created the International Scouting Movement, perhaps taking an interest in the proper development of boys was not all that unusual in late 19th-early 20th century British society. If sexual deviancy us to be asserted in an encyclopedia article, it should be more thoroughly substantiated. (and it should be made relevant to the rest of the article)

Frank M. Richardson was a noted military historian and author of several books on military subjects. Your use of loaded terms such as "evil", "odd", "slander", "deviancy" indicate to me that you're the one with the axe to grind. What are you so worried about? --Kstern999 06:42, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Richardson's work is mostly singular and indeed odd when compared against the more comprehensive works on this subject, like The Road to Khartoum, Gordon's Journals and Gordon of Khartoum. There are many quality books about Gordon that explore his life in great detail. Richardson's work is not one of them. This is a case of one academic with a particular pov who has not produced anything definitive on this subject and whose conclusion is not supported by the majority of more comprehensive works on the subject. Richardson may have a point but given the volume of evidence to the contrary a more thorough substantiation should definitely be required. As the article stands right now there is a complete lack of comment on his personal life and that makes it seem incomplete to me. (Trajancavalous 03:23, 4 March 2007 (UTC))

Chinese Gordon was a pederast. Page 83 of M Evan Brooks book, Military history's most wanted also identifies Gordon in such a manner. I don't think its slander when a whole collection of books refer to Gordon as having that lifestyle. And how is it out of context? Its a page about Gordon, andsince he was favored to young boys it should be included. Rexmage 07:56, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Manner of Death

We are not supposed to discuss this, because we have respect for all religions. However, in the grand Muslim tradition, Gordon's head was summarily separated from his upper torso. 64.12.116.139 18:14, 31 October 2005 (UTC)Enfant de la Patrie

I will just add that Robert Fisk, in his book "The Great War for Civilisation", claims that "Bashir's palace boasted the very staircase upon which General Charles Gordon had been cut down in 1885 by followers of Mohamed Ahmed ibn Adbullah, the Mahdi, who like bin Laden also demanded a return to Islamic 'purity.'" pg. 9

Khartoum

The page on Muhammad Ahmad has :

"Under increasing pressure from the public to support him, the British eventually ordered Lord Garnet Joseph Wolseley to relieve Gordon. He was already deployed in Egypt due to the attempted coup there earlier, and was able to form up a large force of infantry, moving forward at an extremely slow rate. Realizing they would take some time to arrive, Gordon pressed for him to send forward a "flying column" of camel-borne troops under the command of Brigadier-General Sir Herbert Stuart. This force was attacked by the Mahdists twice, first at Abu Klea (Abu Tulayh?) and two days later nearer Metemma. Twice the British square held and the Mahdists were repelled with heavy losses.

At Metemma, 100 miles north of Khartoum, Wolseley's advance guard met four of Gordon's steamers, sent down to provide speedy transport for the first relieving troops. They gave Wolseley a dispatch from Gordon claiming that the city was about to fall. However, only moments later a runner brought in a message claiming the city could hold out for a year. Deciding to believe the later, the force stopped while they refit the steamers to hold more troops.

They finally arrived in Khartoum on 28 January 1885 to find the town had fallen two days earlier. Faraz Pasha had treacherously opened the gates and let the Ansār in. Gordon was killed on the steps of the palace and beheaded although the Mahdi had expressly ordered for him to be taken alive. Wolseley's force retreated after attempting to force their way to the center of the town on ships, being met with a hail of fire."

Some of that could usefully be added here.

Was Gordon really acting against orders as implied here ?

-- Beardo 21:49, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Calvary?

Gordon visitied Palestine years before he became involved with the Sudan. If he died a couple weeks into 1885, where did he find time to propose a different site for the crucifixion? All I'm saying is that I think the date is wrong.

As you say, the site says that he was in Palestine 1882-83, and in Khartoum from February 1884 until his death. Searching the internet, I find dates for his theory of 1883, 1884, 1885 and 1894 (!). [I wonder if say his theories were published after his death ?] -- Beardo 06:26, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Just got a book in the mail: "Golgotha and the Holy Sepulchre", by C.W. Wilson, The Committee of the Palestine Exploration Fund, London, 1906. Appendix VII, on pp 199-202, summarizes Gordon's views, with drawings taken from his private letters, and cites Quarterly Statement, 1885, pp 79-80. (I suspect that this is perhaps the journal of the above-referenced Committee). The article also cites Gordon's book entitled Reflections in Palestine, 1883. A quick G-search offers a copy for sale for €675.00, and the bookseller states:

...and in 1883 travelled to the Holy Land where he remained for a year, devoting his time to the study of Biblical history and of the antiquities of Jerusalem....It was published [in 1884] by his friends while he was posted in Khartoum, shortly before his death....

If anyone would like scans of Appendix VII (public domain) for inclusion, please use my talk page. --Frank Rabinovitch 13:14, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I found a free pdf copy of Gordon's Palestine here --Frank Rabinovitch 18:41, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Family (descendants)

It is a curious thing, to say a man has descendants all over the world, when not once is the event of marriage, let alone fatherhood, mentioned in such an exhaustive biography! Nor have I find mention of children in any other source (so far). Dchanslor 15:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC) dione

Education

Does anyone have any more info on his education. Did he have any academic credentials whatsoever in history or anthropology?LCP 19:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Paternity

The first sentence of the current Early Life section is incoherent. It states, "Born in Woolwich, the son of (1786-1865)...". Does anyone have the correct info?LCP 00:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

mistranslation Generalissimo/Titu

Gordon's military rank, Titu, is here translated as "generalissimo". Is this a commonly accepted translation? I can't help thinking it sounds a bit inflated. Even though titu is arguably the highest operational military rank, at any given time there are somewhere around two to three dozen titu active; it's really not much different from a western marshal or general. Furthermore, it is of equal rank with the banner marshals (Titu lead only non-banner armies), and a number of border guard generals. It also ranks below any peer and the court guard ministers (considered martial ranks). Gordon was never given more authority than his own armies, and the translation generalissimo gives a false impression of his position. o 16:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Extremely biased section!

The section entitled "Remembered as a hero" is extremely biased towards portraying Gordon as a hero, albeit he's just an invader and Colonial ruler in the eyes of most of the Sudanese as well as many Arabs and Muslims. I'm going to change the section title to "Death". Hopefully, some editor will going to attach a dispute of neutrality template into this section. --SimsimTee (talk) 04:39, 25 February 2008 (UTC)