Talk:Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland

Shouldn't this article be renamed the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland? Although it's clearly much smaller, the Orthodox Church of Finland is also an official state church, and has been in the country continuously since the 1200s, 300 years before the Protestant Reformation. See http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/uskoeng.html and http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/ortodeng.html. Wesley 20:29 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)

AFAIK the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland deliberately avoids using the unqualified name "Church of Finland" precisely because of the existence of the smaller Orthodox Church of Finland. I concur in recommending that the article be renamed. 62.78.176.236 19:36, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

You seem to be right. Go along!

-- Ruhrjung 15:23, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I moved to page to correct name "Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland". That is the official name of the church. That is the name the church itself uses, and that is also the name used in the register of religions in Finland. Tero 08:43, 2004 May 7 (UTC)

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I removed the term "Evangelical" as I find Lutheran being less prone to misunderstanding, given the popular US-usage of the "Evangelicalism".
-- Ruhrjung 12:44 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Teachings

So, do only men sin, or do women too? Emerymat 03:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Er, what? Both. --Kizor 17:14, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Membership losses

A recent edit ( see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_of_Finland&diff=61491025&oldid=61345356 ) removed the (unattributed) percentage loss of members. The web site, http://www.eroakirkosta.fi/tiedotus/resign.html works out the percentage loss for 2005 at 0.6% (which is what the original version had). I'll think about the wording and add back in the loss figures, though thats kind of like an edit revert thus why I'm talking about it. Ttiotsw 01:03, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Intentions and causes of the Swedish Reformation

"The Swedish reformation was started by the state, which wished to confiscate the church property." From the article.

This is a highly oversimplifying statement on the historical causes of the Swedish Reformation. There was instability in the Church before Gustav Vasa decided to change the national religion. An instance of this is the bull decreed from Rome to bishops in Sweden in 1518, which included a plan on how to deal with the "heretics". Particularly in Swedish cities, Reformation Theology was very popular, whereas the rural areas were more inclined to follow the pope. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.194.34.225 (talk) 17:32, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The commonness of praying

The introduction of the article says: "Most Finns pray at least once a month." Um... Pray for which god? I'm from Finland and I find this statement very hard to digest. While it is common to be a member of the church, most members don't believe in it's main teachings or practise religious activities in their everyday life. If this indeed is a fact based on some questionnare, the source should definitely be mentioned. Malitsu (talk) 12:50, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Just so that everybody understands what I'm talking about: This article says that according to a gallup 69 % of Finns feel religion is unimportant to them. I think it's an important notion to make since it shows the nature of the church. It doesn't work in the same way as for example American churces do. Lutheranism is a state religion, not necessarely the personal faith of the members. 88.115.199.208 (talk) 09:16, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

"Relatively peaceful"

You state "Sweden did not have any civil wars or important uprisings due to reformation." That's not true. Please check Nils Dacke and Early_Vasa_era#Peasant_risings. --RandomNumberSee (talk) 00:14, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, being a Finn, I was not aware of these uprisings, all of which took place in Sweden proper. However, can we agree that the reformation was introduced relatively peacefully in Finland. (Indeed, the reformation was introduced also extremely slowly in Finland. For example, salt was used in conjunction with the baptism for decades after the formal reformation of the church.) As the dioceses of Vyborg and Turku enjoyed a rather wide autonomy in the 16th century (compared to the following century), I would still call the Finnish reformation relatively peaceful. --MPorciusCato (talk) 14:52, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't know much about the reformation in Finland. But since Finland was a territory of Sweden at that time I would just suggest to get rid of the disputed sentence. Otherwise we should expand this section somewhat. I found some information about the period in the Catholic Encyclopedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06076d.htm

The king now, on his own authority, appointed his favourite, the Dominican Martin Skytte, as bishop; Skytte did all in his power to promote the violent introduction of Lutheranism. The people were deceived by the retention of Catholic ceremonies; clerics and monks were given the choice of apostasy, expulsion, or death. The only moderation shown was that exhibited towards the Brigittine nunnery of Nidendal. But on the other hand, the Dominicans at Åbo and Viborg, and the Franciscans at Kökars were rudely driven out and apparently the inmates of the monastery of Raumo were hung. Then, as later, the Church of Finland did not lack martyrs, among them being Jöns Jussoila, Peter Ericius, and others.

An expansion of the article would need better sources than that, though. I don't have any at the moment. --RandomNumberSee (talk) 15:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

The Catholic Encyclopedia is not perhaps the best source. The Dominican, Martin Skytte, was actually elected by the Chapter of the Diocese of Turku, according to Canon Law. However, Gustav Vasa forbade the diocese from asking for papal acceptance of the election. Most Finnish sources either call Skytte a Catholic leaning towards reformation or a very moderate reformist. The violent "introduction of Lutheranism" was more of a confiscation of the church property by the state than an operation of Martin Skytte. Skytte did what he could in order to uphold the church in his diocese during a time of severe repression. Still, I would call the reformation "relatively peaceful, compared to Central Europe", as the form and organizational continuity of the diocese were preserved and the doctrinal reformation took place over the course of several decades. I wrote the sentence into a form which should be make this clearer.

BTW, does the Catholic encyclopedia really spell "Nidendal"? Is that a deliberate snark? The town of Naantali is in Swedish Nådendal, in Latin Vallis gratiae, meaning "Valley of Grace". Nidendal would translate as "Valley of Pagans". --MPorciusCato (talk) 15:50, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

That's a good joke indeed. Probably this happened during the scanning and transcription process. I can live with the current text. --RandomNumberSee (talk) 16:08, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Category:State churches (Christian) vs. Category:Church of Finland

Category:Church of Finland is itself a category within Category:State churches (Christian). — Robert Greer (talk) 19:34, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Dissent from conservatives

The article should really consider looking into whether there has ever been any doctrinal dissent from conservatives within the Church of Finland, who might feel alienated about decisions surrounding the ordination of women or the blessing of same-sex marriages. It is possible to imagine that if this dissent were not healed, many of these conservatives would consider forming their own ecclesial community, which might be tempted to reunite with the Catholic Church, such as recently seen with the Traditional Anglican Communion. ADM (talk) 15:59, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

It is not polite to copy-paste the same question to two different talk pages in order to generate discussion. This might be considered a flame-bait. In addition, the name of the church is "Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland", which has been in use since 1809. (The adjective has been necessary to distinguish from the Orthodox church.)

Actually, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland does not bless same-sex unions, although it does ordain women. The former is a subject of lively discussion, as you might imagine, while the latter faces severe opposition from conservatives. Especially, the Laestadians and evankeliset oppose the practice. However, a formal breach has not yet been discussed. --MPorciusCato (talk) 15:46, 11 November 2009 (UTC)