Talk:Flail (weapon)

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It's always neat to see other people expand on an article that you've written. Cute picture!

Harkenbane 06:56, 6 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The terms "morning star" and "mace" are incorrect when used to describe flails, and are themselves distinct from each other. The defining characteristic of flails (which you touched on) are that they are a mass of metal attached to a haft by means of a chain. Morning stars and maces have no interconnecting chain. -CW

From what I understand the termnology in morning star is actually useable to any of the weapons if it had spikes attached. And that a flail only has one chain link, much like the agricultral flails only with metal studs attached. So what is shown in the article is a mornigstar ball on chain, not a flail. -Dob

Merge with Meteor hammer

A flail and a meteor hammer are two distinct weapons. The hammer has no handle, and a much, much longer chain. Their origins are also completely distinct.--Vince Skrapits 02:48, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

NO MERGE, as per above Calicore 04:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. --James Hales 07:28, 14 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please DO NOT merge these articles. I am currently trying to create a more comprehensive article about the meteor hammer. The two are very different, not only in use but also in shape! --Xanthine 08:16, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As my major rewrite will now show, the meteor hammer article is not suitable for merging. Though I must thank you, it is a noteworthy point (and one I have mentioned) that chain weapons are often confused with each other. --Xanthine 13:06, 18 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This weapon looks suspiciously similar to the 'Holy Water Sprinkler', see 'Tracht Wehr Und Waffen'.

Sources, people

Please, please, don't use Wikipedia to document your beliefs or original research. Look, just below the edit box: content must be verifiable. Any additions to this page really need to be supported by external sources. -- Rogerborg 23:26, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, please add 'some sources to this article. There's not a single source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.177.1.40 (talk) 23:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC) [reply]

Zelda References?

Don't you think that the referencese to single battles where the weapon was used in Legend of Zelda games are a bit too marginal? I think "Use in popular culture" should include something more general, like analytic view of what kind of contexts the weapon is often used, or something like that. LotR reference is a bit marginal too, but probably much more informative to most of the readers. RandomMonitor 09:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed vague paragraph

I removed the following from the article: The Middle Ages was an extremely violent era in history featuring battles in both Europe and the Holy Land when the crusades, and the crusaders who fought them, were numerous. Feudal lords and knights used such weapons as the flail in different types of warfare. The quest for power led to invasions of lands and territories which had to be fought for. Siege warfare, waged to win a castle or a walled town or city, was a frequent occurrence during the Middle Ages. Warfare during the Middle Ages, or Medieval era, called for a variety of weapon expertise. Knights and men-at-arms (foot soldiers, or archers) used different types of weapons. The flail was predominantly used by knights and foot soldiers. The weapons used were dictated according to status and position. The weapons, armor and horse of the knight were extremely expensive. I don't know how this paragraph adds to the article, but it reads like a copy and paste from a school assignment about weapons and warfare generally. -Phoenixrod 21:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Leverage

I think the haft and chain arrangement allowed the wielder to swing the head with much more force than with typical maces, for example. I'm not sure if the chain merely adds length to the moment arm, or if the physics is more elaborate, but I believe this weapon hit really, really hard compared to other weapons of similar weight. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AThousandYoung (talk • contribs) 23:27, 14 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Merge with Mace and chain

I say we merge this page with Mace and chain, as both are nor particularly long, the shorter one is a stub, adn it woudl benefit this article. Comments? --Patar knight 19:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Variations

I removed the following passage from Variations since I fail to see how it differs from the regular flail.

A variation of the flail is called a chain mace. It is composed of a long chain usually wrapped in leather or another protective material, and has a steel ball at the end of the chain^{[citation needed]}

I altered the subsequent sentence so it would fit without the above sentence but I still find it inadequate.

also in Variations

"A variation of the flail is a handle with several chains attached to it rather than one, none of which have a spiked metal ball at their ends"

i think that merely refers to the flagellant style whip which is sometimes also named a flail, which is allready mentioned in the first paragraph· Lygophile has spoken 00:52, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Historicity

I have recently come across an academic study that among others claimed that flails (as a morning star head attached to a handle by means of a chain) were a figment of romantic imagination not unlike the Iron Maiden. I don't recall where I read that but it has sparked some doubt in me. Therefore, I would like to encourage everybody contributing to medieval weaponry on Wikipedia to try and find the following:

medieval renditions of flails in pictorial sources
actual medieval examples of flails in museums
written sources from the medieval era describing a flail

Prove me wrong, please. I'd like that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trigaranus (talk • contribs) 21:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thought I had signed that, sorry. BTW: the Hussite examples I've seen so far were just a straightforward peasants' threshing flail with an iron-clad front part, and nothing like the weapon depicted on Wikipedia. Trigaranus 21:20, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I believe you are correct, ive looked in some books and none of them mentioned morningstar flails, and one book specificly said they were not commonly used, maybe not ever used. The flails used by wheat farmers were used as improvised weapons though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.165.40.133 (talk • contribs) 7 November 2007

I mentioned these concerns in the german Wikipedia article Flegel (Waffe), stating that there are no academic sources for flails as customary weapons from late antiquity to modern times (barring agricultural tools used as improvised weapons). The whole idea of flail-wielding knights or Landsknechte is a ridiculous figment of romanticism and contemporary fantasy-culture (ie Dungeons & Dragons). On the german article's discussion page I suggested the deletion of the whole article, except for a short account of the misconception itself, which (since it actually has been used as an improvised weapon) could be placed in the article for the agricultural tool Dreschflegel. The same should be done here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.160.87.109 (talk) 15:15, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Without the handle

Is there a variation of the flail where the handle is just a longer chain? I have seen this type of weapon used in fiction but I dont know if it exists in real life. Diabl0658 04:19, 1 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As mentioned above, I have been looking for contemporary evidence for the use of flail-like (or ball-and-chain-like) weapons during the Middle Ages, or in fact, any time. So far, no results. Any kind of multipartite form (i.e. a massive head flexibly attached to some kind of handling device) -- except the modified threshing flail! -- should best be considered fictional until proven otherwise. Trigaranus 17:05, 1 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dating

I've seen that recently two contributors from the US have changed the date (13th-15th centuries to 11th-15th c.). But as so far, nobody has produced any evidence whatsoever of a flail of this kind being used ever, I suggest you only change this dating once you have some reliable information to back it up. If you can prove that such a mace-and-chain flail was actually used, please let us know. Trigaranus (talk) 07:32, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See for examples these threads: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=137632, http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=8785 As I understand it the short-handled flails weren't especially common, and most seem to be 15th century or later, but they certainly existed, in a variety of forms. 24.71.150.241 (talk) 05:59, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]