Talk:Homeopathy

Constructive ideas

Instead of squabbling and bickering, and excessive use of uncivil words, might I suggest that editors return to the main point? and begin to offer new positive suggestions on how the article might be improved? if we have some new versions of sentences we can begin to comment and vote on them. Surely this would be time better spent than on arguments and venting hot air? thank you Peter morrell 09:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The article can be improved by writing thoroughly about facts (aka science, aka homeopathy being a fraud) and completely disregarding incorrect views (homeopathy being true or plausible) as well as the charlatans and zealots who insist on wasting any time or space on lies. If you do not wish to see the article improve but instead want to try to argue with irrational people, then the article will inevitably not be improved. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 12:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The way I see it, we are currently waiting on homeopathy proponents to suggest another change. I think some people here (those who believe that homeopathy is ineffective) are relatively satisfied with the POV of the current article although there is some mention that the Nature controversy about water memory should be included. I mention this because I think that these people are unlikely to propose any substantial. Some other peopele, however, have been relatively vocal about POV concerns with the article eg Arion 3x3, Art Carlson, Guido den broeder. Could some of these people please comment and their feelings about this phrasing, proposed by Naturezak.

The authors of some meta-analyses report positive results from the use of homeopathy, but critics maintain that many of these studies are methodologically flawed.[13][14] A 2005 meta-analysis published in The Lancet, of clinical trials comparing homeopathic remedies to conventional treatment, indicates that homeopathy's effects are unlikely to be different from those of a placebo.[6]

Both Peter Morell and I felt that a change similar to this would be appropriate ("authors of some meta-analyses" is a bit weasel wordy but we can fix that) but this phrasing needs comments from others. Could any of the aforementioned people (or anyone else who wishes to) please point to specific passages of the article that they think are POV so that we may discuss them (please quote). Note, this is what we have heard so far: Some people are unhappy with the Lancet meta-analysis finding that homeopathy is no more effective than placebo. We don't need to hear this again, however, we do need to hear about any specific problems with the scientific methodology of the Lancet meta-anlaysis. The discussion about the non-scientific complaints did not really go anywhere. However, it may be useful to see any RS where a homeopath states that homeopathy should not be tested by science in general. The Rey study was an interesting proposition but that discussion has devolved into ad hominen attacks. I think it is important for homeopaths to understand that many here are going to take an "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" stance and argue against any claims of water memory that have not been replicated in double blind trials. However, I do Anthon01 for providing an actual source for his water memory claim. JamesStewart7 (talk) 15:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Let me clarify that I am neither an advocate for, nor an advocate against homeopathy. As far as I know, there simply is not enough evidence to support any conclusions with regard to the validity of the theory or with regard to the merits of the treatment. At the moment, some sections are argumentative and try to convince the reader that the whole idea is nonsense. There is no scientific basis for such a claim, just as the opposite cannot be claimed. Guido den Broeder (talk) 15:40, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok I don't really want to get into a practice of classifying people into supporters or opponents but apparently I did not structure my wording well enough to avoid that implication. I was just trying to elicit an opinion from all the people I mentioned in the hope that they may offer a differing viewpoint and I couldn't think of a better way to word it. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

JS7: I appreciate you thanks, but would like to clarify that although I did bring it up on this talk page, it is not my "water memory claim." It is a significant part of the homeopathy discussion and I believe merits inclusion in the article considering the highly regarded RS. It is a topic I find interesting, am open-minded about and yet unconvinced. Anthon01 (talk) 07:24, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The abstract of the article in The Lancet says: "Biases are present in placebo-controlled trials of both homoeopathy and conventional medicine. When account was taken for these biases in the analysis, there was weak evidence for a specific effect of homoeopathic remedies, but strong evidence for specific effects of conventional interventions." I think that this may well be an accurate meta-result. Note, especially, that the outcome does not imply that homeopathy has no merit, nor that there is no evidence for any effects. The abstract continues with: "This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects." While true, this is a suggestive statement, because the finding is also consistent with the notion that homeopathy has a small, but genuine effect. There is no way to tell which of the two is the case. Guido den Broeder (talk) 16:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Has anyone done a study of possible biases in the Lancet article? Friarslantern (talk) 23:03, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

They councluded that they found weak evidence for any effect. They did not say that they found reliable evidence for a small effect. Small effects should still demonstrate statistically significant differences on large trials. If the effect is so small that the trial has to become ridiculously large for the effect to become significant then it is pretty safe to say the effect has no practical implications and could just as easily be due to error. I fail to see any evidence for even a small effect in the Lancet results and the authors seem to agree "This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects." There are even tools to determine what is the minimum effect size that will be found significant if it exists: statistical power so if you want to establish that there could have been a small effect at least find a RS that did a power analysis on the Lancet data. Or if you want to do one for you own knowledge only, do one yourself (I assure you, you'll find the minimum effect size is quite small) JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Placebo effect = no effect, so since the study showed an improvement consistent with the placebo effect, then the placebo effect is the probable cause. Also notice that the effect was small - in the majority of cases it didn't help. Homeopathy is therefore shown to be ineffective in this study, and does not give the improvements claimed by homeopaths. Your trying to spin this study into some kind of support for homeopathy, when it is at least indifferent (saying homeopathy is as good as a sugar pill), shows that despite your claims you are not as unbiased as you may think you are. The mainstream scientific view of homeopathy is that homeopathy has no effect, and no mechanism by which an effect can be caused. There have been many good studies, and it now rests with homeopaths to prove their statements true. Homeopathy is a multi-billion pound industry, so there is plenty of money to spend on producing good, doubled-blinded, individualised, etc, studies. The fact that Borion (sp?) et al do not do this speaks volumes for their confidence in the efficacy of their treatments. I'm sure the authors of the study are pleased that you feel it is accurate, but your interpretation of their results leaves a lot to be desired. The current state of homeopathy is that there is a lot of good evidence suggesting that it has no effect (beyond placebo), no plausible notion of how it could have an effect, and only very poor evidence that it has any effect. Why are you trying to imply that there is some kind of evenly matched science on each side, or that there still remains a lot of doubt in the scientific community? This is simply not the case. The article as it is now is mostly good, with a discussion of homeopathy as homeopaths see it, and then a scholarly discussion of the scientific view. It could do with improvements, but is generally good as it is. If anything, the scientific view should be made more prominent 90.197.168.195 (talk) 16:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Logic does not work that way. The outcome is consistent with many things. Without further evidence, picking one of them as the truth is pov. Now, please discuss the topic, not the users. Guido den Broeder (talk) 16:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The authors concluded that the current evidence is insufficient to conclude the existance of any effect. Note the default position in any scientific inquiry is the null hypothesis (all inferential statistics operate by rejecting the null hypothesis if there is an effect). The article even states this "When used, the null hypothesis is presumed true until statistical evidence in the form of a hypothesis test indicates otherwise". So, scientifically speaking, homeopathy is assumed to be ineffective until there is sufficient evidence to conclude otherwise. The researchers concluded that there was not sufficient evidence so the null hypothesis was accepted. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

No, the null hypothesis is that there is no difference within an experiment. That is not quite the same. One can do a larger experiment. Guido den Broeder (talk) 09:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

One can always do a bigger experiment. Just how big would the experiment have to be before you'd accept that there is no homeopathc effect? Your understanding of the scientific method is floored I'm afraid. The comments below still apply too. Also, putting comments halfway through a long thread is very confusing. Please reply at the bottom or make it clear that you are replying out of turn 86.146.119.116 (talk) 11:58, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

In principle, a scientist never 'accepts' that something does or doesn't exist based on statistics alone. That said, expanding the meta-experiment as published in the Lancet would, if the measurement of 0,88 remained the same, only provide evidence that supports the notion of an effect. The value would have to increase, i.e. the measured effect in new studies would have to be weaker than in the published review, to make it otherwise. Guido den Broeder (talk) 12:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah good old cherry picking again. Most of what I wrote was a discussion of the issue. Where is the hole in the "logic" of what I wrote? I am interested to why you think that there is some kind of parity between the evidence for an against homeopathy? I think we could work together if you answer these two questions clearly and concisely. If I am wrong about the second please explain what your view is. Thanks 90.197.168.195 (talk) 16:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I broadly agree with what James says; however, where it says in the above passage "...positive results from the use of homeopathy," [add refs here] we could then discuss WHAT refs to add there. A few days back someone posted some examples of these so-called 'positive studies.' Well, if there is some level of agreement (as opposed to ad hominem attacks) then we can add 1 or 2 of those items at that specific point in that passage, as references, choosing them carefully as the BEST. Does this sound a reasonable idea? Then as also suggested, folks can pin-point any specific sentences they wish to change, hopefully accompanied with a suggestion of versions for voting on or some mechanism for making a decision. thanks Peter morrell 15:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It sounds reasonable but I think we are still at the "assessing the level of agreement" stage. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Stating that, according to the Lancet article, there is insufficient evidence to claim homeopathy to be effective would be OK with me. Any suggestion that we (therefore) know for certain that it is ineffective, would not. Guido den Broeder (talk) 11:52, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

You realise that, in scientific terms, whenever there is insufficient evidence for something it it is assumed that that thing is not real ie if there is insufficient evidence for the efficacy of homeopathy, it is assumed that homeopathy is ineffective. The current article doesn't actually imply we know anything "for certain". It does not use the words "prove", "disprove" or "impossible". "The ideas of homeopathy are scientifically implausible[6] and directly opposed to modern pharmaceutical knowledge". Note the term implausible as opposed to impossible. So I can only assume you are objecting to statements like this (btw this whole process would go so much easier if people could quote passages they object to - then I wouldn't have to make these assumptions) "A 2005 meta-analysis published in The Lancet comparing homeopathic clinical trials with those of conventional medicine demonstrated that homeopathy's effects are unlikely to be different from those of a placebo". Note the usage of the term "unlikely". The study concluded that its findings were compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homeopathy are nothing more than placebo effects." Note the term "compatible". These statements are perfectly acceptable as the null hypothesis is always assumed in the absence of evidence. So can we please stop the strawman arguments and actually refer to what the current article says. The article uses scientific terminology throughout (suggested, compatible, statistically significant effect, no evidence) so it is completely unfounded to suggest that anyone is suggesting that anything can be known "for certain". It should be noted, however, that the pragmatic position that nothing can be known for certain does not forbid reasonable conclusions like this "homeopathy's effects are unlikely to be different from those of a placebo". JamesStewart7 (talk) 07:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, at the moment we seem to have two suggestions. First, is the addition of 2 or 3 refs listed above of allegedly good studies (?), which have been interpreted by some as showing some effect of homeopathic intervention. Those refs, when their selection is agreed, could simply be added as cites to the wording-unchanged sentence already identified about 'positive studies.' Second, we have to put in some mention of water memory and the work of Benveniste. If there are more ideas of changes to be added, then please mention them. thanks Peter morrell 12:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Benveniste is already mentioned in the article. Anthon01 (talk) 07:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

We should refer to meta-analyses only as someone needs to seperate the reliable studies from the poorly conducted ones. It would be OR for any editor to perform this process themselves. Meta-analyses are almost always preferrable over original studies when they are available Wikipedia:Primary_sources#Primary.2C_secondary.2C_and_tertiary_sources. Seeing as every meta-analysis (at least every meta-analysis I am aware of) on homeopathy is already included in the article I highly doubt that there is any study on the efficacy of homeopathic interventions to add. No one is going to agree on an original study to add because everyone is aware that people can just cherry-pick whatever studies reach conclusions they agree with, with complete disregard for the scienitific quality of the study. So I guess the only way consensus could possibly be reached is if the wikipedia community agreed on a selection criteria beforehand. Of course people like me are going to push for this selection criteria "large, double-blind, randomised controlled trials only" and it just so happens these were basically the selection criteria used in the Lancet analysis so I highly doubt any consensus will be reached here either. The only trials that have shown homeopathy is effective are small and/or of lower quality so undoubtably anyone who disagrees with the conclusion that homeopathy effects are placebo effects will want such trials included. Others will maintain that the results of such trial are completely unreliable and should not be included. Of course, it is never ending debates (and believe me, it will be never ending) like these that are the reason meta-analyses are preferred in the first place. The simple fact of the matter is, deciding what constintutes an "allegedly good study" is OR. The only reason wikipedians should allow original studies is that there is not always a recent enough meta-analysis. Shang et al., however, is a 2005 analysis. JamesStewart7 (talk) 07:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the idea of water memory is essential to the theory, and should therefore be mentioned, with sources for research and arguments, but again without claiming proof or refutation. Guido den Broeder (talk) 12:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? There is no proof of long term water memory, and it is a thoroughly discredited idea. See the water memory page. Your claim to be unbiased is as strong as the homeopathic effect. You are right that it should be mentioned, but to leave out the criticism is a disgraceful suggestion 86.146.119.116 (talk) 14:44, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that water memory is essential to homeopathy and should be mentioned. We have an entire water memory page that is somewhat orphaned because water memory does not receive a mention in the main homeopathy article. However, I also agree that water memory is a thoroughly discredited idea. I think the main homeopathy article should offer a brief (perhpas only one or two sentence) discussion of water memory and link to the main water memory page. JamesStewart7 (talk) 07:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

How have you determined that it is completely discredited? Anthon01 (talk) 07:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

There is plenty of evidence that water has a memory in the femtoseconds, but that timescale is not relevant to homeopathy. Antelan ^talk 03:03, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

So provide the sources for this evidence. Guido den Broeder (talk) 09:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Constructive ideas - break

There are serious issues ahead which are unresolved because of a coflict both in theoretical assumptions and in observations between so-called scientists converging on this topic and those of practising homeopaths. People who use homeopathy will never accept crude statistical globalising of data using meta-analyses, not principally because they regard it is statistical sleight-of-hand (which they do), which predictably deletes the positive results from many studies (which it does), but primarily because homeopathy as an empirical medical practice, as opposed to a so-called mathematical problem on paper, individualises treatment for every case and acts according to its own principles of sickness cause and cure for each case without any regard for the pooling of data that is possible in allopathic studies. There simply is a gulf between the two methodologically and in terms of how it is practiced on the ground. You don't even have accepted disease labels in homeopathy, so how can you rig up a double blinded study? you treat each case as a separate entity with its own unique twists and turns of treatment as the discourse between patient and practitioner evolves. Nor can that be predicted in advance as a comparative study demands. No homeopath can give one remedy for a whole crowd of folks allegedly with the same 'disease' and expect anything other than a zero outcome no better than placebo. They must give different remedies to each and a differing pattern of sequential remedies according to the properties of each case. The two situations are entirely different. Therefore, double blinding and standardised procedures are not possible. Even patients with closely similar 'conditions' are not going to receive from a good homeopath the same remedies in the same doses or in the same sequence because of the unique differences in each case and in each family history. This is one issue that anyone who has seeen good homeopathy in practice is going to despair about how this can be satisfactorily converted into a sound statistical analysis acceptable to all sides on a totally neutral basis. How can it be done? The secondary issue about potentisation and water memory is a big side-issue, a damp squib; until you have proof that homeopathy works according to the principles it follows, then there is little point in even venting hot air about a possible mechanism. At the moment the issue is stalled at the first hurdle due to these methodological issues over good trials that satisfy all criteria. Lancet and other meta-analyses certainly do NOT meet these criteria and until good large studies that address these complex issues are tackled and resolved then no homeopath in the world will respect the alleged outcomes of such studies. I hope this clarifies some issues. thanks Peter morrell 09:25, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence to suggest that homeopaths actually individualize the treatments ie some form of evidence (not just what homeopaths say) that suggests that homeopaths actually offer different treatments depending on different variables? Do you have any evidence which indicates that homeopaths actually agree on what is the best "individualized" treatment for a particular patient? I completely and totally dispute this idea that homeopaths actually individualize anything. I think they collect a whole bunch of patient data and proceed to ignore it and base their decision on a stereotype or heuristic. Heuristics btw are pretty falliable, see for example, the availability heuristic . How could they possibly take every single variable into consideration and weight them all accordingly? Humans simply aren't capable of that level of statistical analysis necessary to do this. To say that homeopaths actually individualize treatments in the way they say they do goes against pretty much all the evidence on psychology. If you want to include a sentence such as "Homeopaths state that they individualize their treatments for the patient" (it has to be state because they don't really) then fine, but then in order to balance it we should review the evidence about "individualized treatments" specifically, the journal articles which suggest they give the same treatment for the same condition (I have read some, I'm sure I can find them if necessary). Then we can point out that even we can still construct a double blind, randomized placebo controlled trial while allowing for individulaisation by just swapping out the treatments at the lab. We can go in, let the homeopath talk to the patient, let them prescribe whatever they want and if they are in the placebo group we can swap out the treatment and just not tell the homeopath prescribing it. Otherwise we give them whatever they prescribed. After that we can point out that many of these individualised trials, like the aforementioned one, still demonstrate that homeopathy is ineffective. Then we can point out all the psychological evidence that suggests that homeopaths do not individualize their treatments in a rational, logical way. Turns out there is even a review in this area [individualised homeopathy], "http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/acm.1998.4.371", which points out that "The evidence, however, is not convincing because of methodological shortcomings and inconsistencies". So hey, I guess it turns out that Shang et al. were right to exclude such studies as they are not very well conducted. Also the better conducted trials of individualised homeopathy also seem to be more likely to conclude that it is ineffective. "The pooled rate ratio of the methodologically best studies, however, was clearly smaller and not statistically significant" If you want to add that meta-analysis into the homeopathy article with those two quotes, then fine by me. Also Linde goes over various issues with these studies eg can't really be replicated which are the reason they are not preferred. This should also receive mention. JamesStewart7 (talk) 10:35, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting that you finally reveal the obfuscating fact of your disbelief. If you want your long-winded views to attract an atom of respect then I would suggest you study homeopathy and its practitioners directly for yourself, as I have done for the last 29 years. Then you will find them to do just as they say. That is evidence derived from observation in the real world (AKA science) and does not derive from statistical textbooks or paper articles or dodgy websites that endlessly recycle the unconfrmed views of theoretical objectors. As I previously stated, the issues concerning trials are real issues. I would add that there is not a homeopath in this world who does not want to see proper trials set up to the satisfaction of everyone. They have nothing to lose from proving that homeopathy works in a neutral setting. And nor is it true as stated above that homeopathy is a billion dollar industry that avoids paying for trials. It is actually strapped for cash and most homeopaths make a very modest living! Compare the fortunes of Boiron (a French homeopathy pharmacy) and GlaxoSmithKlein, for example, or any other major drug company (who fund allopathic trials) and you will see that homeopathy as a 'financial outfit' on world terms has a fraction of the wealth of such drug companies who could fund good trials into homeopathy, or indeed any other alt. med system, but who very seem hesitant to do so. The views I have expressed are accurate and if you check the archives of this talk page you will see this type of argument has been circular for a VERY long time. Take it or leave it; there is not much more I can say to you. cheers Peter morrell 11:47, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

From your reply you would get the impression that the entire content of my comment was about some sort of financial incentive for practicing homeopathy. I made no mention of this. The issue at hand here is whether this reference should be included "Linde, K., Melchart, D. (1998) Randomized Controlled Trials of Individualized Homeopathy: A State-of-the-Art Review. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. 4(4), 371-388" This should be the ideal article really. Your concern was that trials on homeopathy are not individualized. Here is an meta-analysis of individualized homeopathy trials. Is this supposed to be evidence "derive(d) from statistical textbooks or paper articles or dodgy websites that endlessly recycle the unconfrmed views of theoretical objectors" If you have an objection to the article I would expect you to detail your objection to the scientific methodology used instead reverting to such ad hominem attacks (I guess the article is worthless becaues they are "theoretical objectors" right?), not to mention the ad hominem attack against me. I am aware that this type of argument has been circular for a long time and it basically boils down to two things. Homeopaths want to admit anecdotal evidence as support for homeopathy "I would suggest you study homeopathy and its practitioners directly for yourself, as I have done for the last 29 years. Then you will find them to do just as they say" Scientists and skeptics will never let let that happen. The long list of cognitive biases prevents anecdotal evidence from being anything other than worthless. There is very strong scientific evidence for the existance for some of them. Homeopaths also say that homeopathy is open to scientific investigation but often say randomized controlled trials are not a suitable research tool without saying why. In the case that they do give a reason, the reason is always (that I have seen anyway) individualization. When an analysis of individualized trials (which should meet all their criteria) is presented which finds the best studies find non-significant effects apparently that review isn't good enough because the researchers are biased or something. It is pretty hard to satisfy anyone who keeps moving the goal posts. So tell me, how could someone prove that homeopathy is ineffective, if homeopathy, in fact, does not work? How would they design the study so that it both achieves a reasonable level scientific rigor and satisfies the criteria set by homeopaths. If it is simply a matter of individualization, it has already been done. If no one can answer this question then we are forced to assume that homeopathy is not open to scientific investigation. Then the next step will be to look for a RS that states that this. JamesStewart7 (talk) 12:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a good deal that could be said to refute Peter Morrell. James Stewart has said some of it. The fact is that there are issues that Peter thinks are important which are not mentioned in the article, and there are many homeopaths that feel as he does. The article should make an effort to handle these issues. The POV that most negative studies are inadequate because the treatments were not individualized is prominent among homeopaths and should therefore be represented, naturally together with the scientific counter arguments. I endorse, for starters, two suggestions made by James:

• Include information from a reliable source on the real-world practice of homeopathy. I believe that James is right and I have read that homeopathy is seldom as "individualized" as much as is claimed, and that therefore the existing studies address the bulk of the practice of homeopathy. Of course we need a RS before we can add anything like this (or its opposite) to the article.
• The meta-analysis of individualzed trials by Linde and Melchart (1998) should be added to the article. The journal and authors are reputable. It is a secondary source, sufficiently recent to be up-to-date but also old enough to have drawn critical commentary. Highly relevant because claims like Peter's pop up continually. Ideal.

--Art Carlson (talk) 13:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

If you keep modifying the article to address ad-hoc explanations from homeopaths for why homeopathy does not work, then the article will eventually be infinitely long and consist of nothing but bickering with a succession of new baseless rationalizations from homeopaths. They are not bound by facts or honesty and can come up with any number of "objections" from whole cloth. Just ignore them. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 14:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

It is a legitimate question, which variants of homeopathy are tested by various experimental designs. Although it may be a minority, individualized homeopathy has a significant following. Just what are you objecting to? Do you think we should not mention various forms of homeopathy? Or should we not mention the meta-analysis of individualized homeopathy? If so, I haven't really understood your reasons for wanting to leave out one or the other of these points. --Art Carlson (talk) 15:39, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

You should mention whatever is appropriate for a factually correct and properly cited article on homeopathy. Explaining what homoeopathy actually is should be part of that. Taking the assertions of homoepaths at face value regarding what homeopathy is, or responding to every one of their made-up ideas about what's wrong with science, should not be. Only people who are willing to write true and relevant things should be working on any Wikipedia articles; people who believe in homeopathy are by definition not living the realm of the true or relevant, and their ideas and words have no place here. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 21:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Randy look at the general philosophy section. It is full of made up ideas. It would also be silly to cut such a section from the article. I think it is important to say what homeopaths believe before you start ripping into it. So how about we state that homeopaths believe that they individualize their treatments in the general philosophy or treatments section with all the other untestable or thoroughly refuted ideas and then place the Linde individualized homeopathy meta-analysis into the medical analysis section. I agree with your suggestion that we can't litter the article with ad-hoc explanations as to why homeopathy does not work but I don't think the concept of individualization is either ad hoc, or an explanation as to why homeopathy does not work. Individualization is a conecept similar to "treating the whole patient" (holistic health), which appears often throughout alternative medicine so I don't really doubt that many homeopaths consider it essential to their practice. Holistic health/Individualization is not about excusing why the treatment don't work, it is about taking a shot at conventional medicine as the somewhat POV article demonstrates "Traditional medical philosophy approached patient care as simply attempting to correct physical symptoms, using standardized methods such as the prescription of drugs or the undertaking of surgery, while the patient is only passively involved" (I'll be tagging the article as POV in just a moment). So maybe there is a POV reason to not include the individualization claim but "providing an excuse that the treatments do not work" is not it. Also despite what Peter morell suggests, individualized treatment is totally testable and there are scientific studies that demonstrate individualized homeopathy is just as ineffective as ordinary homeopathy so it's not like it's a claim that scientists cannot counter. JamesStewart7 (talk) 06:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I can suscribe to most of that, but ... The criteria for including things in Wikipedia is not truth but verifiability. The beliefs of editors have no place in the article and are otherwise irrelevant. Only the quality of their editing matters. So. Do you care to comment on my proposals, or should we drop this discussion? --Art Carlson (talk) 21:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Verifiability is a perfectly fine criterion. Here, it would mean finding the major publications or websites that support homeopathy and citing them to show "what homeopaths believe," then finding the responses from scientists that show why each belief is incorrect. It does not mean responding to things brought up by one anonymous person on the article's talk page; there is no way to verify that such objections are anything but one homeopath's series of back-and-forth responses to other Wikipedia editors, made up on the spot. Thus, such things are neither verifiable nor notable. My point is the same: the homeopathy fans on this talk page can and MUST be entirely ignored. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 16:14, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed on the verifiability point. I'm sure someone can find a reference that states homeopaths believe in individualization or holistic health or similar. A quick search turned up this "http://www.ajpe.org/legacy/pdfs/aj6002198.pdf". It is published in the American Journal of Pharmaceutical education and it states that "Hahnemann formulated the principle that medications and doses must be highly individualized for each patient following an exhaustive and lengthy examination of each patient by a homeopathic physician Because each treatment is highly individualized based on the physical, mental, and emotional status of each patient, patients who would be given identical treatment with conventional medicine are often given different treatments under homeopathy". I haven't read the whole article carefully but their may be criticisms in there too as the article is clearly not trying to legitamize homeopathy "Homeopathy and legitimate medicine are two radically different branches of medicine." Looks like there are verifiable sources that state that individulization is part of homeopathy. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Anti-fan talk should be equally ignored, something that is often forgotten. It's not up to us to decide if scientists do in fact show something to be correct or incorrect. We can and need only mention that they, rather than we, come to certain conclusions. Guido den Broeder (talk) 16:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

If the scientists say something is equivelant to a placebo (like they did in the Lancet article) then by your own arguments, we should state that the evidence suggets that homeopathy effects are placebo effects. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I know its' a difficult concept to grasp, but no, the article should not state that. The article should state that the authors say something (not this, by the way). Guido den Broeder (talk) 11:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Why shouldn't it state that "in studies homeopathy has performed no better than placebo" with supporting refs. I've just reviewed your comments here Guido, and I've found your twisting of the scientific method offensive, and bending of wikipedia rule and policy to suit your bias and POV equally offensive. You are a troll and are adding nothing constructive to this talk page, and I'm asking you to please leave until after this current situation has been resolved. Your statements are not supported by science and your claims to be unbiased are laughable. I have been assuming good faith, but you have taken this too far now so please leave. I suggest you read some good books on the scientific method and how it progresses (written from the mainstream perspective), and come back in a month or two. I'd advise other people to stop feeding the troll 81.153.131.222 (talk) 12:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Personal attacks are not welcome on Wikipedia. A warning has been placed on your talk page. Guido den Broeder (talk) 15:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Hilarious! Some might say you aren't welcome for your twisting of the truth and wikipedia policy. 81.153.131.222 (talk) 18:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Why shouldn't the article state that "in studies homeopathy has performed no better than placebo"? To begin with because it isn't strictly true. There are a lot of studies reporting better performance for homeopathy than for placebo. Even in the 21 trials of homeopathy that the Lancet meta-analysis described as "large trials of higher quality", "weak evidence for a specific effect of homoeopathic remedies" was found. We can report that the Lancet study concludes "This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects.", but this wording is considerably less decided than your paraphrase. --Art Carlson (talk) 13:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

(Rant) I did say if it's supported by the refs. It was an example. There are not any good studies showing that homeopathic concoctions have the medicinal effects claimed. That i the crux of the matter. Homeopathy doesn't work, has been repeatedly shown not to work, and there is no remotely plausible mechanism by which it could work. The article should describe homeopathy as homeopaths practice it, but it should spare no criticism to avoid hurting these misguided charlatans feeling. Homeopathy is discredited and homeopaths are (either intentionall or because they are self-deluded) dishonest. These facts are true and verifiable. Homeopaths clinging to non-specific, statistically insignificant, weak results and their promoting of pointless customer satisfaction surveys shows the extent of their delusions. This article is currently in a pretty good state, being more than fair to homeopathy while presenting scientifically valid criticisms. If anything this article is too postive towards homeopathy and its fundamentally unethical practitioners. Doctors should not lie to their patients, and unfortunately that's all homeopaths do. I realise this is a rant, and is not directed at you Art - you arr generally a force for good here, but I'm getting sick of the misleading statements made by homeopathic supporters. They have had a lot of practice at twisting the truth I guess 81.153.131.222 (talk) 13:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Seeing as this "The study concluded that its findings were compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homeopathy are nothing more than placebo effects" is exactly what the article states I'm not really seeing what the problem is here. "This finding" is roughly equivelant to "the study" anyway. If neither Guido den Broeder or 81.153.131.222 are suggesting we change this statement, I suggest we drop this discussion right here. My response to Guido was based on the inference that he/she was suggesting that was suggesting we change the article from the current form, which was based on the assumption that everyone here is trying to focus their comments on constructive ways in which the article may be changed. I think this is a fair inference as Guido states "The article should state that the authors..." whereas the current article uses "The study concluded". I have to voice my strong opposition against this wording. "The authors" makes it sound like it is just their opinion. It is not. No significant effects were found in the study. Not significant means that any variations between the treatment group and the placebo group may be accounted for by chance. This is the conclusion that every scientist makes when they find non-significant results. This is the only conclusion that can be made. You do not conclude the existance of a small effect on the basis of a non-significant result. You can only conclude there is a small effect when you actually find a small effect. If the authors were to say there may be a small effect they would just be speculating. So if they said this then it would be "the authors state...." because their statement would be some statement in the discussion that is not directly supported by their results. The results are non signficant, which means the null hypothesis is accepted and as the comparison group was a placebo control group the results are compatible with the notion that homeopathy effects are placebo effects. This is just a fact. It is indisputeable. Even if one day the study is found to be totally flawed and we find that that homeopathy is a miracle cure, it would still be completely correct to say, "The study concluded that its findings were compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homeopathy are nothing more than placebo effects". This is just how inferential statistics works. JamesStewart7 (talk) 07:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree 81.153.131.222 (talk) 10:34, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Studies do not make conclusions, only authors (and readers) do. Others may draw different conclusions from the same study. Guido den Broeder (talk) 15:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

If you want to define a new philosophy of science, go and do it somewhere else. The conclusions of the study are the studies conclusions. If someone else has written a paper refuting it then we could cite that. Stop trying to push POV and reduce science to opinion. 81.153.131.222 (talk) 15:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Authors do make interpretations based on the study (the bulk of the discussion) and other authors may make differing conclusions. However, whether or not the hypothesis was supported is often not a matter of interpretation (except in rare cases where the hypothesis is not clearly defined which should never happen but it does. The Lancet study is not one of these cases). In the Lancet study it is simply a matter of looking through the results and checking for significance. As the results of the study are a fact and not an interpretation we are going to use "the study found..." Science is not just a matter of opinion. The same arguments have been done to death on pages like this one Creation evolution controversy. They weren't accepted there. They won't be accepted here. Facts don't change because people can't accept reality. JamesStewart7 (talk) 03:13, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

As I've said before, their conclusion seems correct to me. It is nonetheless their conclusion. Guido den Broeder (talk) 19:25, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

In the same sense that science fans (like you and me) must be ignored/reverted when they try to make changes to the article not based on reliable sources. If Peter or you says something like "I have often heard homeopaths/scientists use such-and-such an argument", then that might be something that belongs in the article, so the rest of us can try to find reliable sources supporting or negating it. That's the sort of thing that talk pages are for. This is all pretty trivial, and I don't believe you really want to say anything else, but you keep choosing wording that is unnecessarily provocative (Peter MUST be ignored). If you'd back off on the rhetoric we could put our energies into improving the article. --Art Carlson (talk) 16:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I've read the discussion in this section and wonder whether this discussion is based on a reading of the abstract only or the article? Has anyone actually read the article(s) being used in this discussion? Anthon01 (talk) 15:35, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

New Times article

Readers maybe interested in this new article published today in the UK [1] showing the UK government's plans to regulate Alt med. It also contains some interesting current data about alt med in the UK. Peter morrell 08:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and another! [2] Peter morrell 14:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm having some trouble figuring out what is meant by "proper qualification" and "best practice" in the case of homeopathy. Who decides this and on what basis? As we have seen in our discussions here, it has proven difficult/impossible to prove that any form of homeopathy has any effect at all, so how is anybody supposed to decide with any objectivity at all what constitutes "improper practice"? Call me cynical, but it sounds like homeopaths are trying to use sexual assaults by some of their number to create a framework that makes it easier to sell their beliefs as being scientific. --Art Carlson (talk) 15:28, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Bias - Please ignore this

I'm new to homeopathy and haven't done all my research yet. But the main article is clearly bias and should be re-written objectively. Another thing to think about is that there's lots of money in the phramaceutical industry, so whether homeopathic methods work or not they are going to try to supress it. Half of the negative comments on here are probably from people affiated with the pharm industry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.224.145.185 (talk) 18:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Care to back up any of this rubbish with any references or proof? This is the kind of comment that isn't helpful. Can people stick to suggesting improvements. I agree it's biased, mostly in favour of homeopathy right now. Damn now I'm sinking to the level of these trolls .... Sorry everyone. Can we delete this unhelpful comment and it's parent please? That would go some way to improving things 90.197.168.195 (talk) 19:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Very interesting. Could you please tell us which statements are biased and how you (clearly) recognize that they are (despite being new to the subject)? Also, unless you some have concrete evidence that a particular editor has a conflict of interest, please assume good faith and avoid personal attacks. (@90.197.168.195: I know it can be hard, but please do not bite the newcomers.) --Art Carlson (talk) 19:48, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

If you plan to stick around for awhile, why not register an account? Antelan ^talk 19:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello again, sorry about that above I got a bit overheated. Ah well, I might have a glass of water pills to calm down! (That was just a joke, no offence intended) 90.197.168.195 (talk) 19:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

please, this article is a classic drug company hit piece. it provides ONLY negative infomatiaon regarding thei subject and anyattempt at proving the effectivneess of homeopathy is crushed and suppressed. wikipedpias and the main-stream meedia treatment of parapsychology and alterntive scientific research is practilically Stalinist in the amoutn of thought control and bias that pervades its coverage. Smith Jones (talk) 03:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Smith Jones (talk) 03:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I forget, does Godwin's Law have a Stalin clause? Raymond Arritt (talk) 03:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

no it doesn't, and my comparison is valid. stalin Used mass propaganda such as the parpasycology related articles on wikipedia to brainswash Russans citiznens into beleiving whatever he told them. he controlled all the media and crushed any attempt at dissident views with overwhelming force.this is the same behavior that is being used against me and the people working to improve articles cuh as Uri Geller and Kevin trudeau. i myself was recently just run out of the Sylvia Browne criticisms talk pag eby a barage of insults, threats, and edit warring designed to subjugate my opinion and prevent me form disagreeing with the mainstream establishment. that in and of itself is the very epitome of totalitariainsm. Smith Jones (talk) 04:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Giving predominant weight to the mainstream is Wikipedia policy. Antelan ^talk 05:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

which does NOT justify the tactics used by Big Pharma to contorl and abuse dissidents. Smith Jones (talk) 05:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)Italic text Smith Jones (talk) 05:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

You're implicitly accusing all of us who have shaped the article in its present form of working for Big Pharma. That's just plain rude, and it violates a half-dozen or so Wikipedia policies. If you continue in this vein things are apt not to end well. Raymond Arritt (talk) 06:07, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

i am no arccuisng you of anything i am simply poiting out that a majroity of the soruces on ther ientenrt are baised in favor of drug companies and the feds. it has not hing to do with anything anyone here has done and everyhhthing to do with the way they indriectly influecne wikipedia into promoting the vigorously biased ans alndsated assaults on reason or freedom of speech. Smith Jones (talk) 17:24, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a place to right great wrongs. Antelan ^talk 17:41, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

RCT trials the take into account individualization

Are there RCTs that take into account individualize treatments. If anyone can provide citations, that would be greatly appreciated. I'm not sure that homeopathy has been proven to be only placebo. NCCAM states

"Research studies on homeopathy have been contradictory in their findings. Some analyses have concluded that there is no strong evidence supporting homeopathy as effective for any clinical condition. However, others have found positive effects from homeopathy. The positive effects are not readily explained in scientific terms.

Previous studies modeled after drug trials that support the "homeopathy is placebo" claim don't disprove homeopathy, but disprove the application of a specific remedy, taken over a specific amount of time, for a specific condition. This is one way the homeopathic remedies are used, but it is not the only way. More to come. Anthon01 (talk) 18:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC) NCCAM also states

Treatment in homeopathy is individualized (tailored to each person). Homeopathic practitioners select remedies according to a total picture of the patient, including not only symptoms but lifestyle, emotional and mental states, and other factors.

As with any other health practitioner, the first attempt at diagnosis and treatment often "misses the mark." Changes in dosages and medicines are often needed to 'individualize' treatment. According to homeopathy the issue of individualization is central to success. Anthon01 (talk) 18:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Can someone provide links to RCTs that took into effect, the 'individualization' of treatment. Anthon01 (talk) 17:44, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

You can read the Lancet meta-analysis, which cites several that you can read. Antelan ^talk 17:47, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Already discussed above. --Art Carlson (talk) 18:35, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

What was discussed above, the details of the articles or abstracts? Are the above discussions based on abstracts or a reading of the articles? Anthon01 (talk) 19:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh and thanks for the link Art. I had already read that discussion. Anthon01 (talk) 19:47, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

You originally asked for citations to "RCTs that take into account individualize treatments". What better citation could you have than to a recent and reputable meta-analysis? Is it a question of links to the full text of the meta-analysis, or to the studies analyzed therein?. --Art Carlson (talk) 21:04, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes I was looking for any RCT's that include the 'individualization' of homeopathic remedies. The meta-analysis is the conclusion presented by a research team. Have you read the meta-analysis or are you basing your judgement strictly on the abstract? I did read the discussion in the section above and wonder whether everyone has read the abstract or the article and abstract. I have the meta-analysis (LMA) and am looking for any studies reference in the LMA and others that may not have been. Anthon01 (talk) 00:32, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I haven't read the study yet, but I just now got access to a copy and will respond after I have looked through it. On the other hand, Wikipedia should not depend too much on what you or I think of the article. It remains a reliable source. Do you have an opinion about whether we should reference it? Do you know of any other secondary sources of comparable quality on scientific studies of individualized homeopathy? --Art Carlson (talk) 08:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes I would agree that it is a RS. However, the abstract is only a small part of what is written in the source. I think it should be referenced. I am looking for quality sources that use study designs that adequately test treatment methodologies used in classical (individualized) homeopathy. A number of editors seem certain that homeopathy has been completely discredited but the available data I have seen does not support that. Anthon01 (talk) 22:40, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Anthon01 why exactly is the meta-analysis insufficient? Going to the original studies risks WP:SYN issues. I think it is impractical to include all 32 trials and objectively describe them (length issues) so I don't see that as an option either. If we're picking a particular few, there is always the risk that wikipedians exhibit their own publication bias. According to the meta-analysis of individualized homeopathy, when the best studies are considered, homeopathy is equivelant to a placebo. This is not the case when the poor trials are included but Linde notes that these trials are of poor quality and well poor quality experiments give you unreliable results? Btw I have read the full source. In my opinion (which I understand is worthless due to OR issues but I'm going to give it anyway), Linde did quite a good job on the study. A break down of all the studies are given an the comments are quite extensive. JamesStewart7 (talk) 08:57, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

It might be interesting to describe a very small number (1-3) of specific studies to give the reader an idea of how individualized homeopathy has been scientifically tested. To avoid cherry picking and general fisticuffs, the only criterion we could use is to choose the studies that the meta-analysis describes as being the best. There are 6 studies "likely to have good methodological quality", of these 3 are "rigorous" and 2 are "extremely rigorous". Of the 6 studies, 2 nearly show a significant (95% CI) positive result. The two "extremely rigorous" studies, which would be the most natural candidates for inclusion, are clearly negative. Are these the sorts of studies you would like to describe in the article, Anthon01? --Art Carlson (talk) 09:38, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I would agree, Art, but you must ensure that in such studies true individualisation WAS carried out, or the study/article in question is not of much use to show anything of worth. thanks Peter morrell 09:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

What is "true individualization"? Do you have a specific criticism of the method of individualization used in any of the studies classed by this meta-analysis as "likely to have good methodological quality"? --Art Carlson (talk) 11:11, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I have not read them so I don't know. I don't know even if I have access to them. True individualisation means a) not grouping the patients by using a disease label and b) allowing the treatment of each patient to be free of formal constraint, that is so the therapist can apply whatever remedies in whatever potency and whatever frequency they wish, when they wish and change it as required according to patient responses. In a usual (good) homeopathic treatment this is what happens. The case is taken, a suitable remedy is chosen and given; the response or lack of is noted; case -re-taken after a phone chat or note, new remedy given, response noted, wait and see...etc. This is clearly not a predictable standard format for every patient. Some will respond positively to first remedy, others don't. Much digging (into other aspects of their health or family history) is needed for some cases while in others it is not required. So what I meant was that unless all this is allowed in the trial then the study is NOT studying true homeopathic work, but some other maybe diluted approach. Does this clarify? And of course the methodological quality is important as has been suggested but if it does not allow this approach then the study (whatever else it might be doing) is not studying homeopathy for the individual patient. And therefore its conclusions reveal nothing about homeopathy as such. thanks Peter morrell 11:29, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm speaking from memory here but in order to be included in the meta-analysis the study must have given the practitioners complete freedom in what remedies they may prescribe for each condition and be able to conduct their own sessions with the patient. So since the homeopaths could basically do what they like then, if homeopaths do pracice "true individualization", this was the case for every study in the meta-analysis. JamesStewart7 (talk) 13:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Why is it important to (a) not group the patients by using a disease label? I can take potential subjects, run them through a conventional diagnosis, take only those that M.D.s diagnose as having disease X, and then send these to the homeopaths. Is there any reason to think that homeopaths can cure (on average) all my potential subjects, but not those diagnosed with X? If so, then I only need to take the group not diagnosed with X, and I will find an even stronger effect. You can work around (b) in a similar way. One of the "rigorous" studies was limited to 11 remedies, but "patients were included only if the similium was among those". The rules chosen in the various studies were different, but several of the best studies allowed a lot of freedom. For example the homeopathic invervention in Walach et al. (1997) was described as "completely free individualized homeopathic treatment", and in de Lange et al. (1994) as "constitutional and acute individual similium as necessary (changes possible, dosage and potency variable)". I don't see any reason that these methods should not be called "individualized homeopathy". I understand that many studies have been criticized for not being individualized. It would be very interesting if you have a notable, reliable source criticizing these studies. --Art Carlson (talk) 14:00, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I just finished reading the meta-analysis. I think it is quality work that addresses a common objection to scientific studies of homeopathy and should be included in the article in some detail. It is, however, nearly ten years old, and the authors wrote at that time "Since we completed the literature search for our meta-analysis in autumn 1995, a number of new randomized trials of individualized homeopathy have been published and several are actually in the process of publication or on-going." And "In recent years there has been a considerable increase in the number and methodological quality of randomized clinical trials of individualized homeopathic prescribing." It would be very helpful to have a more recent analysis, even if it is not as thorough as this one. A final comment directed to Peter: The authors write "there is no consensus about what good quality homeopathy means". That is, we cannot (at least not in Wikipedia) talk about "true homeopathic work", but only about homeopathy as it is practised, with some attempt to account for its major divisions. --Art Carlson (talk) 14:00, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Art, it is OK to group patients in any way you wish, that is not the issue, what I meant was that homeopathy treats people, not 'conditions;' therefore, you treat the symptom totality and not just some vaguely labelled 'condition,' that is the meaning and it is the thrust of all the great textbooks of homeopathic method and all the great homeopaths since Hahnemann's day. In my study oif the subject, I would suggest there are very few people who call themslves homeopaths who not follow this approach. I mean approaching a fraction of 5% if not a fraction of 1%. However, I agree more recent studies would be preferred. Maybe you can email me the link to download the article? another factor: how were the outcomes determined, subjectively or objectively? limiting the study to the use of only 11 remedies cannot be considered good homeopathy; there must be no limit on the choice of remeies. thanks Peter morrell 14:36, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

As near as I can tell, some studies used subjective outcomes and some objective. The entries in the table under "outcome extracted" are

• global assessment (2 entries)
• global assessment patients (6)
• global assessment physician (4)
• duration of diarrhea (2)
• preference (1)
• response/responder (3)

Some of these also added the descriptor "crossover trial". --Art Carlson (talk) 15:32, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Be aware that there is likely to be a difference between what homeopathy can do and what homeopaths acomplish in practice. Limiting the choice of remedies may be a good thing, to control the effect of treatment errors, even if it is a methodological concession. Guido den Broeder (talk) 14:58, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm still looking for more recent work. I did find the "Habilitationsschrift" of Linde, presented on 3 Dec 2002, in which he cites his own study, the one being discussed here, and a meta-analysis by Ernst, also from 1998, which concluded that it was not possible to conclude anything because of methodological weaknesses and inconsistencies. Another paper from 2005 (Harald Walach , Wayne B. Jonas , John Ives , Roel Van Wijk , Otto Weingärtner , Dr.Phil.Nat. . 2005. Research on Homeopathy: State of the Art. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine 11:5, 813-829.) also only cites these two (Linde and Ernst) as "COMPREHENSIVE SYSTEMATIC REVIEWS AND META-ANALYSES ON THE GENERAL QUESTION OF WHETHER [classical] HOMEOPATHY IS PLACEBO OR NOT". An editorial by Walach from 2003 (Harald Walach . 2003. Reinventing the Wheel Will Not Make It Rounder: Controlled Trials of Homeopathy Reconsidered. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine 9:1, 7-13.) also suggests that Linde is the high water mark. My impression is that there was a surge of effort in the 90's that has since receeded (wether due to disappointment or fashion). I think this analysis will be the best we can do. --Art Carlson (talk) 15:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Lost section

Yeah, obviously we're all paid by BigPharma - despite the fact that big pharma would love it if homeopathy worked. Small overheads, no side effects, no need to prove anything in a trial.... There's no agenda pushing from pro-homeopaths either, they're just trying to get the truth out. The point is the science, which is not someone's opinion, does not support homeopathy. Borion et al can pay for independent studies if they don't like the existing ones, and universities have independently funded trials of homeopathy which have shown no evidence of the claimed effects. Just who is pushing a POV, agenda, and doing a "hit piece" here? You people really make me laugh sometimes with your paranoia! Thanks! Or maybe they got to me already - what's the homeopathic sugar pill for paranoia? --88.172.132.94 (talk) 18:36, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

What? You guys are all paid by Big Pharma and I've been editing for free? Somebody tell me what I need to do to get my piece of the action! --Art Carlson (talk) 20:57, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

BigPharma has no use for un-patentable medicines. And homeopathic remedies whether they work or not would directly compete with BigPharmas profits. Anthon01 (talk) 19:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

If homeopathy actually worked, Big Pharma (oooh...look at the scary capital letters) would have no trouble at all milking it for cash. They'd love homeopathic remedies. The material costs are nearly zero, and the 'quality' assurance is a snap. (Just run a sample through the HPLC/MS and make sure that it doesn't contain any non-water/filler ingredients.) Side effects are negligible. If homeopathic remedies actually worked, there would be a dozen different ways to patent them. Here's a few:

• Combine the homeopathic remedy with a real drug of some sort. Patent the combo. (This is done all the time with real drugs.) Repeat every time the patent comes up for expiry.
• Use a different starting material that still produces the desired symptoms. Patent the new drug.
• Use a different extraction process in the preparation.
• Use a modified, recombinant protein as a starting material.

If there were any indication at all that homeopathic remedies performed at all, Big Pharma wouldn't fight them; instead Big Pharma would use all of their Evil Powers^TM to extract money from them. (I would be entirely unsurprised to find out that Big Pharma companies already owned many of the distributors of homeopathic remedies.) Big Pharma would love to see homeopathy work, because they'd be able to hike prices on homeopathic products and sell them to a larger market. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Assuming any of those things would work better than what already exist, eh? And I just repeated the term that was used before. Maybe you should back off on the coffee?:-) And BTW, they are BIG. Anthon01 (talk) 19:42, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

god Forbid if you or any of you're loved onces every suffer from a disease, but if that ever happens to you you will realize how vicous and predatory and depraved these pharmaceutical companies can be. they supress homeopathic therapy becausethey dont want there to be any chance of eradicating any of the major diseases that plague the modern world -- cancer, AIDs, malaria and others. their researchers know that if homeoapthy becomes widely accepted people will be able to treat themselves in their woen homes or even open up competing clinics to care for themselves instead of relying the toxins dispendsed by their research facilities. that is why research on homeoapthy is carefully controlled and make sure that anyone who dares to speak otu agianst the current paradigm is viciously discredited and their reputations and trampled upon. if yuo look at the backgrounds of all the major firms that claim that "disporvE" homeopathic research you will find that the big pharma has its roots sunk deep into each thand every one onf them.Smith Jones (talk) 21:45, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Tell me again why we have to "assume good faith" from illiterate conspiracy theorists? Randy Blackamoor (talk) 21:49, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I think he must be a literal straw-man! He's not actually supporting homeopathy, he wants to make them look bad... or he needs to calm down a bit! Maybe he's being paid to edit here on behalf on BigFarma. Or maybe it's a double-bluff and that's what they want us to think, and he's a BigSugar hitman! Or it's all rubbish and this section should be deleted. I'd also ask any editors to ask this guy to calm down, but I see he's been asked before --88.172.132.94 (talk) 22:55, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Smith Jones - please back up your claims that the pharmaceutical industry is engaged in a conspiracy to suppress homeopathy to keep people sick and make more money by providing reliable, secondary sources that state this. Please do not use Wikipedia as a soapbox for your opinions, and try to keep your conversation on the topic of improving the article. --Phirazo 05:19, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

the pharmaceutical companies are nto engage in a "conspiracy" and nowhere have i had argued that this was the case . only my oopponents have stated sch things. my argument ist aht the pharmaceutical companies promtoe and support studies that probve their claims to be true as a ordinary part of running thierbusisinesses. they do not do this out of malice bu tout o fa need to increase their profit margins. perhaps they are not deliberalye suppressing homeopathy but they do not want it to be seen as truebecuase if people stop buying druigs and start mkaing their own they will make substantially fewer money. there is no way for me to prove this, anymore than there is a way to prove that it is not true, but I can site credible sources that disucss such big-pharma business practices:

• General article on Kevin trudeau, discusses his theory
• news site that covers alternative medicine and skepticaism related to
• FoxNews has a series involving homeoapthy, alternative medicine, and big pharma's coverup
• discusses the charade made by drug companies to supress any interest in homeoapthic science
• further muckraking by a presitigous news site affiliated with CNN about amthe coverup— Preceding unsigned comment added by Smith_Jones (talk • contribs)

That info may merit its own article. This is not it. Antelan ^talk 01:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

if you think thats a good ide athat then i'll get right on creatinga new article. I think it should go as Pphramaceutical Industry Coverups or perhaps be added to the drug company or big pharma article. Smith Jones (talk) 01:54, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Kevin Trudeau? Really? The guy from the infomercials? That is about as unreliable a source as you can get. News Target is certainly not neutral, and I can find little information on its reliablity. How is it "affiliated with CNN"? The New Internationalist source is bashing homeopathy pretty hard. The Fox News source is a transcript from The O'Reilly Factor, and isn't very useful for article writing. This entire idea that "the pharmaceutical industry is suppressing homeopathy to make more money" is a conspiracy theory, and if the best source you have is Kevin Trudeau, than it does not belong in the article. --Phirazo 04:50, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

we al need to grow up!

PERHAPS you thinkt aht you're insults and slanders will stop me from working hardto improve wikipedia. if that is your mindset, fine, but i must warn you that you are wrong. i am not a straw-man and my support fro homeopathic medicine is as sincere and honest as is your oposition to homeopathic mediine. there are some whose mindsets prevent them from beliving that any-one who disagress with them is serious, but that is again the typeo of attitude that is poison to any free editable encyclopeia. i was under the impression that this was a forum in which the body of human knowledge can be placed together and amde easily accessible to the commonf veiwr, but increasingaly have been notocing signs that a few people (not necesarily the people here, but a few editors in gerneral) consider wikipedia to be their own private fortress in which no dissenting opinion no mnater how well-sourced or how comon it might be outside their little bubble is permitted. looking back i must admits that i have been overreacting alittle bit on this talkpage and that i have failed to obersve good faith on the part of my fellow editors and that i should apologize for that. however, i am not the onyl one who has been behaving contrary to the stated goals of wikipedia and i alsmo must observe that in your zeal to make sure that the drug companies get their way in all areas of published research that you have ignored your obligation toassume good faith on my part as much as I have. i Still want to work past this and if we are able to cease the constant bckering and hostility and focus on improiving this article then i think that i can be a much better article thatn the biased slop it currently is. Smith Jones (talk) 00:16, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia which is edited based on it's policies - some of which contradict your interpretation of what Wikipedia is - hence your problems. I encourage you to review WP:NOT to help you with your understanding. Shot info (talk) 00:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow you actually managed to apologise for not assuming good faith and accuse everyone of pandering to drug companies in the same post! JamesStewart7 (talk) 10:26, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

i have revewied those informaitons more times that ic an possibly counts, and i see nothing in them that specifically rejects theidea of homeopathic medicine. Smith Jones (talk) 03:22, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Automatic archiving

There is a bot that will automatically archive old threads: MiszaBot I. Since this page sees quite a bit of discussion, I think it would be beneficial to use this bot. The howto is here, but to summarize, the main variables that can be set are how old the thread has to be to be archived, and how big the archives can be. I think archiving threads at the age of one week, and an having archive size of 200 KB would be a good place to start. I'll set it up if there is a consensus to use it. --Phirazo 21:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, if there isn't any objections, I'll manually combine some of the old archives. A few are at 30K, which is too small this subject. {{Archive list long}} only goes up to 36, and I'd like to stay under that for as long as possible. --Phirazo 21:05, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I have enabled Miszabot to archive this page. --Phirazo 19:06, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Please go ahead. It's getting problematic to load this talk page. Guido den Broeder (talk) 21:49, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

It is running now, and I have set it to archive threads older than two weeks. --Phirazo 18:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

typo to clear up

{{editprotected}} Under GeneralPhilosophy, Law of similarity, could an admin please change "symptoms similar to of those disease being treated " to "symptoms similar to those of the disease being treated"? I'm trawling through WP looking for "to of" to correct! Not controversial, not urgent, except that having found it I'd like to get it fixed. Thanks PamD (talk) 12:56, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Done. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 15:18, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Talk page problems

Why are comments on this page disappearing or moving around seemingly at random? Can somebody please fix this or put a stop to it. It's hard enough to follow this debate as it is. Thanks! --147.171.255.159 (talk) 16:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I think I have everything sorted out. Threads older than two weeks have been archived here, and all the newer information is back. If I missed something, let me know. --Phirazo 18:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

NPOV tag, again

The article has been full protected to stop an edit war over one lousy tag. Does this article really need it? I think the article is about as neutral as it is going to get, and perma-tagging this article is pointless. The point of tags is " alert other editors that work is needed, and auto-categorize pages so that patrolling editors can aid their talent to the problem." See Wikipedia:Dispute templates. If you feel the tag is needed, please point out the specific parts that are POV so they can be fixed. --Phirazo 22:42, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I have not been actively involved in recent discussion or editing of this article, but on quick observation it still states in the third paragraph of the LEAD, "ideas of homeopathy are scientifically implausible", this is not NPOV. —Whig (talk) 22:49, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Why is that not NPOV? WP:Fringe states that it is appropriate to report levels of acceptance and there are scientific reviews to source that statement. If we can say the earth is spherical, then we should be able to also say that homeopathy is scientifically implausible. I'm sure I can find a whole bunch of people who think the earth is flat. It is not sufficient to say you do not like the POV of a sentence as WP:NPOV clearly states we do not need to give equal validity to fringe theories. Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience also found that "Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience." So please explain, with reference to wikipedia policy why anything in the article is not NPOV. JamesStewart7 (talk) 23:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

You may attribute the statement to a reliable source, but otherwise you are stating your POV. —Whig (talk) 23:28, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

"The ideas of homeopathy are scientifically implausible" is sourced to The Lancet, a highly influential and peer-reviewed medical journal. Sources don't get much more reliable than that. --Phirazo 00:33, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

That's fine. So say, "According to the respected Lancet, ..." —Whig (talk) 00:34, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

respected is POV. just say according to the journal Lancet — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smith Jones (talk • contribs) 00:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Fine. "According to the Lancet, which is ranked #3, by impact factor, among general medical journals." Reference here: [3]. Of course this conveys the same meaning but as this comment deals purely in factual information it should be considered NPOV. JamesStewart7 (talk) 06:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's fine. —Whig (talk) 00:41, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

At the end of the day, we should call a spade a spade. Homeopathy is scientifically implausible. That is a fact. I don't see the need for an in text attribution, just a footnote is fine. --Phirazo 01:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, as do reliable sources. —Whig (talk) 01:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly which ones? JamesStewart7 (talk) 06:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

There are plenty of good sources, and perhaps we should get them involved. For example, consider this clip from a letter to The Times signed by 12 top UK scientists, including the UK's first professor of Complimentary and Alternative Medicine (Edzard Ernst) [4]: First, there is now overt promotion of homeopathy in parts of the NHS (including the NHS Direct website). It is an implausible treatment for which over a dozen systematic reviews have failed to produce convincing evidence of effectiveness. Despite this, a recently-published patient guide, promoting use of homeopathy without making the lack of proven efficacy clear to patients, is being made available through government funding. Further suggestions about benefits of homeopathy in the treatment of asthma have been made in the ‘Smallwood Report’ and in another publication by the Department of Health designed to give primary care groups “a basic source of reference on complementary and alternative therapies.” A Cochrane review of all relevant studies, however, failed to confirm any benefits for asthma treatment. Antelan ^talk 05:34, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here, Antelan. I grant you have other reliable sources that you can attribute. This one is fine. We cannot state a source's opinion as a fact, however unless we attribute it. —Whig (talk) 05:38, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

If we can establish a scientific consensus that homeopathy is scientifically implausible we should be able to just label it as such without attribution. We do this in every other article. Take the article on the earth for example. It states "The Earth's shape is very close to an oblate spheroid". It doesn't state "According to these scientists, the earth's shape is very close to an oblate spheroid." It just says "is". The current scientific consensus has always been taken as fact in wikipedia. It is only necessary to make these attributions if there is no scientific consensus. So do you have a reliable, scientific source which states that the ideas of homeopathy are scientifically plausible, one that hasn't been thoroughly discredited (eg nature controversy, water memory)? JamesStewart7 (talk) 06:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Right, I agree that attribution is important. I'm not trying to prove anything; I'm offering this as a source that may better demonstrate the mainstream view of homeopathy; this may be even less assailable than the current source, and ultimately more appealing and intelligible for non-scientist readers. Antelan ^talk 05:41, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. If you think that it would be better to use a different source and attribute a more clear statement then that would be good too. —Whig (talk) 06:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

protection

this aprotection is a ownderful opportunity. if we could exntend it for 2-3 months and focu sall of our energy onthe talk page to resolve our disuptes. i support Whigs' positon here. pretsenting view s critical of homeoapthy is fine iwth me., but they must be relegatedto the talk page or sourced from a RELIABLE, WIKIPEDIA-CTERIFIED SOURCE or else they are opinion statemnets. and not worthy of wiipieda. it has nothing to wo do with WP:Fringe (homeoapthy, a scientific pracice with billions of supporters worldwide, is hardly a fringe supject]. Smith Jones (talk) 23:32, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

If you're not going to learn how science works, can you please learn how to speak and type English? Your comments are bordering on incomprehensible. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 01:10, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Peer-reviewed sources are considered reliable by Wikipedia's content guidelines (WP:RS). Plenty of peer-reviewed sources show the efficacy of homeopathic remedies is the same as a placebo. Homeopathy is a fringe theory, widely discredited in mainstream medicine. That is indisputable. --Phirazo 01:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

just because mainstream science disputes homeopathy doesnt mean that it is unpopualr or unnoteworthy, and it is not up to wikipedia to debate facts but to recor the statements and opiions of experts BOTH for- and against- homeopathy, that is the main point of the NPOV policy. Smith Jones (talk) 02:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is debating the popularity or notability of homeopathy. Many, however, are stating that homeopathy has been widely discredity. If you have a RS that establish's homeopathy's effectiveness please present it here. Note, however, no one is going to accept anything that is not published in a peer reviewed journal (unreliable) and no one will accept a primary source without a good reason (see WP:SYN and WP:PSTS). JamesStewart7 (talk) 06:24, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Widely discredited? How so? Anthon01 (talk) 06:55, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

In the case of the Beneviste experiments and water memory I would say it became widely discredited when this [5] was published. JamesStewart7 (talk) 08:13, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I am aware of the Benviste issue. It doesn't discredit homeopathy, it only discredits Benviste's research. Anthon01 (talk) 11:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean how scientists see it is akin to how they see Cold fusion? Peter morrell 10:55, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

While cold fusion is considerably dubious, I'd say water memory is much more open and shut than cold fusion. I don't think you're going to find "More than 490 reports in peer-reviewed journals have suggested unexplained phenomenon..." about water memory. It's also more simple to find where the experiments have been screwed up in the case of water memory (you'll notice the majority of the reports about water memory are not blinded for example). JamesStewart7 (talk) 12:10, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed this conversation and will venture an answer. Credibility or lack thereof is legitimately determined by those who attempt to established "credibility", IOW the scientific community using the scientific method. The rest of the world can choose to believe them or not. I won't even go into the myriad illegitimate ways used to attempt to establish credibility, such has false claims, marketing, etc.. After so much research over the years, it is now pretty much indisputable that the scientific community has become nearly universally (of course there are exceptions) skeptical of homeopathy, and this skepticism is so widespread that very few scientists even attempt any research on it anymore, considering it a moot question and any further research a waste of time. For them it is now a settled question, barring any new and drastic increases in knowledge that overturn much of our existing knowledge of physics, physiology, biology, and of course logic. If that were to happen, there would be a flurry of renewed interest among scientists to resume long-since dropped research on the subject. In that case, this article would also change since there would be V & RS reporting on these new revelations. We follow the sources here. -- Fyslee / talk 07:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I know we follow the sources. Do you have a citation that says it is a settled question? When did it become settled? Anthon01 (talk) 07:23, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

You might find such a statement when one hears scientists and skeptics talking casually, like I do above, but anyone who understands science knows that nothing is totally settled, as implied in what I wrote about "barring any new.....knowledge..." Science is always open to new evidence and follows the evidence. People are slower, but true scientists will eventually bow to the evidence if it is convincing. Those who are not so inclined are either not very good scientists, or don't understand the need for following evidence, choosing instead to believe anecdotes and arguments like "acupuncture has been used for thousands of years and millions (billions is only in modern times...;-) of Chinese can't be wrong," or "They laughed at Einstein. They laughed at the Wright Brothers. (But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." -- Carl Sagan), etc.. One can choose to use time productively, or choose to invest in what is nearly certainly a false hope. Notice I write "nearly certainly".... Nothing is absolutely certain, but if one were to pick a subject about which one were to claim "it is a settled matter that it is nonsense," homeopathy is about as certain as one can get about anything we know of in human knowledge. It is so close to absolutely certain that skeptics have staged mass suicide attempts using homeopathic preparations, and the expected result ensued - no change at all. One can be certain of one thing, homeopathy won't let you down. The result is always the same. -- Fyslee / talk 07:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Homeopathy claims to be non-toxic. So how would someone take a fatal dose? No one has ever taken a fatal dose of cannabis either, but it does have effects. —Whig (talk) 07:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

A fatal dose of pov is more likely. :)

It takes science, not scepticism or casual talk by scientists, to falsify a theory. Guido den Broeder (talk) 13:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Cannabis has very objectively measurable physiological effects (besides the psychological effects) that are undeniably far beyond a mere placebo effect, and no one disputes that. Of course a "contact high" can certainly add to that effect, since getting high also includes some interesting psychologically and sociologically programmed effects that aren't connected with actual THC chemical componenets...;-) Generally anything that has objectivly verifiable effects will also have side effects, so anything claiming to have no side effects won't have any real objective effects either.

As to falsifiability, it is pretty obvious that the significant claims of homeopathy are easily falsifiable. What muddies the waters is that homeopaths are constantly moving the goalposts in attempts to avoid their method getting shot down, but it's been done enough times using high quality experiments to remove all doubt in those who are educated and understand science. When the goal posts (claims) of any method get moved enough, it ends up becoming a mere metaphysical phenomenon that has nothing to do with science. But that doesn't happen with homeopathy because it continues to be accompanied by falsifiable scientific claims that are easily accessible and measurable using scientific methods, and thus qualifies as a pseudoscience. If no falsifiable claims were made, it wouldn't be vulnerable to being considered a pseudoscience. -- Fyslee / talk 15:13, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I wish I understood why you are so certain of what you are saying. Perhaps you can provide some citations to support "it is pretty obvious that the significant claims of homeopathy are easily falsifiable," and "but it's been done enough times using high quality experiments to remove all doubt in those who are educated and understand science." Anthon01 (talk) 16:18, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

That is because we are coming from very different places and POV. I have previously been an alt med practitioner and believed in many ideas common to the alt med paradigm. I lived and practiced it, along with my family, read lots about it, and believed it. It cost my mother (and later my mother-in-law) their lives. I then took a science based education (Physicians Assistant) and also served as a research assistant to MDs doing cardiovascular research. I learned about the scientific method, logical fallacies, research protocols, the necessity of blinding, the frailty of anecdotes and personal experience as a proof of anything (but still an impetus to perform research), etc.. Later I also became a Physical Therapist. After many years of a rocky journey, I became a skeptic and now can see things from both sides, understanding why people can believe both POV. I have since read much of the scientific research, or at least the available abstracts, on homeopathy, and seen them explained and dissected. After all that I can make the kinds of statements I make. I don't expect you to just believe me. You will have to make your own journey, and I can respect that. Unfortunately I can't do it for you, and I can't repeat it for you enough to convince you. Other therapies would be easier to deal with, but homeopathy involves such radical breaks with the rules of logic that it is pretty hard to convince real believers that it is humbug. So it all depends on your degree of attachment to it whether any of us (or any amount of scientific research) would have a chance of shaking your belief. I really don't know how deeply you believe in it, but that doesn't really matter here. I can still respect you. We are just trying to edit an article that must be written according to certain rules and conventions. Our personal beliefs have to be put aside to some degree while editing, and we need to follow the sources. -- Fyslee / talk 06:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate what you've been through, and am sorry to hear about you lost. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

Alt-med, like anything can be misapplied, but that doesn't make it useless. Our situations are a bit different. I started alt-med after having already receive a science degree. I've been reading research papers for 20 plus years, and not just the abstracts. Since we are sharing, please consider a quick anecdote that has influenced my POV.

• Male patient comes in after 10 years of medical intervention trying to get pregnant. Chief complaint is back pain. I do the history, standard exam, review all the standard medical testing (7 years of it). I then muscle test and find weak hamstrings bilaterally. One side cramps up. As calcium deficiency is a common cause of hamstring cramping, a review of his diet shows plenty of calcium, so ingestion is not the issue. I ask him about stomach problems -- indigestion common. He says the hamstring muscle cramps up easily. I find chewing zinc strengthens his hamstring and eliminates the cramping. I give him zinc, his back pain improves, and the kicker is his wife gets pregnant six weeks later. It took me two years to find out the science that explained why the zinc was right.
  

Anyway, back to WP policy. When I stated above "I wish I understood why you are so certain of what you are saying," I was looking for RS to support your POV. Anthon01 (talk) 10:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

?? You've lost me as well. The definition of pseudoscience implies that it is NOT falsifiable. And what goalpoasts? Guido den Broeder (talk) 16:22, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The definition of pseudoscience does not imply a lack of falsifiability, though many pseudosciences make claims that certainly fall into this realm. Definitions actually focus on the lack of "scientific foundation" and the fallacious appearance of a sufficient scientific foundation. Moving the goalposts (which I notice needs an article or redirect) is a logical fallacy in which an argumentor refuses to accept evidence given in refutation of a claim, instead asserting that evidence against a newer (more "difficult") claim is needed to falsify the prior underlying stance. Here's a basic explanation. For specific links on research that has covered the scientific consensus on homeopathy, the "Medical and scientific analysis" section of this article has footnotes to relevant articles. — Scientizzle 19:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Very well put on several points. As regards homeopaths "moving the goalposts," a common one is the claim that homeopathy is not amenable to double blinding, since treatments are individualized, which is nonsense. It's just an excuse since avid and highly regarded homeopaths have made and participated in scientific experiments using standard homeopathic remedies that are sold and used by thousands of homeopaths all the time. No objections were made by homeopaths to the proposed research protocol before the research was performed. If it had turned out in their favor they would have accepted the results without appealing to individualization as a reason for why such an experiment is not valid for homeopathy. Once the results turn out against them, they then "move the goalposts" and refuse to accept the negative results. By repeatedly doing this, they end up making claims that are outside the pale of science, and are in the realm of metaphysics (religion). Metaphysical subjects are not falsifiable unless they also make falsifiable (measurable) claims. Therefore some forms of alternative medicine (like homeopathy) are both pseudoscientific and metaphysical. -- Fyslee / talk 06:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Cite? Please cite. Anthon01 (talk) 11:04, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Science evolves. Homeopaths believe their therapy works. But generally speaking, they aren't research scientists. So they may agree to a study's design and then after the results return unfavorably, look closer to find why the study doesn't conform to their homeopathy experience. One study isn't enough. Sometimes, the goalpost needs to be moved. Homeopathy should be amendable to double blind studies, but the research design need to reflect how homeopathy is practiced. Anthon01 (talk) 14:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Psychologists have a term for that too, confirmation bias. It is not very scientific to unquestionably accept results that agree with your hypothesis and apply greater scrutiny to those which reject it. Skepticism should be present all round. That's not to say that established scientists aren't guilty of confirmation bias at some point (even psychologists in confrimation bais research - knowing about it doesn't necessarily prevent it) but that's why science is set up the way it is. You declare the hypothesis and reserach method before conducting the experiment. The hypothesis should be precise enough so that there is a clear point at which the hypothesis will be rejected. This is designed to prevent problems such as confirmation bias, "moving the goalpoasts" etc. So what you describe is not "science evolving", it is an aberration of the scientific method.

So what do you want Fyslee to cite exactly? This page, Scientific method should support most of the claims about science. I would be interested in seeing the citation that demonstrates that homeopaths explicitly agreed to any research proposal beforehand but there must be some level of implicit agreement as they did agree to do the studies after all. JamesStewart7 (talk) 07:08, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree with you characterization of "moving the goalpoasts," but if you can provide a citation that explains that, I would reconsider. Confirmation bias or not the issue is simple trying to find the right research design that can adequately duplicate homeopathy as it is practiced. If homeopaths are arguing against designs that clearly reflect the way they practice then I would agree with the assertion that they are "moving the goalpost." The citation I was asking Fyslee for was to support his statements that '"it is pretty obvious that the significant claims of homeopathy are easily falsifiable," and "but it's been done enough times using high quality experiments to remove all doubt in those who are educated and understand science." Anthon01 (talk) 19:32, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

What's wrong with "considered scientifically implausible"...

...instead of "is implausible"?

In regards to this statement, I don't think we should be arguing about whether scientific data rejects or supports homeopathy's claims. We should be arguing about the proper style for the introductory paragraphs of an article about a disputed subject, contained in a medium (WP) that aspires to neutrality. Both scientists and vitalists have things to say about homeopathy, and this is homeopathy's article. Allow the reader to use their own intelligence. They will read that science roundly rejects homeopathy. And then they'll make their own decision about what they believe. For some particular readers, the logic behind vitalism may trump a resounding scientific rejection; for others, science will clearly win out. It's not up to WP to tell the reader what they should believe. Even many of those who already agree that homeopathy is scientifically implausible will be turned off to see that Wikipedia is declaring it to be the case, instead of noting how broadly among serious researchers it is considered to be the case.

I challenge anyone to find any respected encyclopedic treatment published that would use this language (especially in its opening introduction): "is scientifically implausible", rather than reporting that science / scientists (and whoever else) find it scientifically implausible. And there's a reason: serious, curious, interested people would eventually stop reading reading such a work; it taints its credibility. Even the introduction to the article cited in our article for this statement -- which is written by a scientist, with other scientists in mind! -- says "seems" implausible. Jeesh.

What's next, WP places a watermark "PSEUDOSCIENCE!" over any article considered a pseudoscience (out of concern for the idiots who read, instead of edit, Wikipedia?).

Overreaction can actually have an opposite effect, of leading people to take the (discredited) theory more seriously! (if the serious academics at WP are up in arms enough about something to get all holier-than-thou about it, then maybe there's actually something I should take more seriously). Come on, folks, science is not immune to dogmatism, especially in these days of culture-wars; and this seems to be an illustration of ideological bullying. Find the guy who has the flaw (non-support by scientific evidence; only limited support even among alternative med folks) and project all one's venom (about people who take alternative medicine at all seriously) on him.

It's a no-brainer: Wikipedia here is proclaiming that homeopathy is scientifically implausible, insulting proponents by its insistence (prideful) on language that, in normal publishing contexts, would be strictly that of an opinion-piece, not of a neutral reference -- not even a published science encyclopedia would use this language (let alone a mainstream encyclopedia). It is exactly the language of religious tract, and, in the minds of the mindless WP readers whose intelligence must be questioned because they are daring to wonder about alternative medicines in the first place readers of Wikipedia, Wikipedia's usefulness and bias-less-ness will be considered to suffer, not to be enriched. Dogmatic language is not user-friendly -- not for those looking to think for themselves. Neutral presentation takes work; everyone has biases that must be weeded out. Friarslantern (talk) 04:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

No wall of text or divination of new WP:GOBBLEDYGOOK policies will change the fact that homeopathy is, as a matter of objective fact, implausible, disproven, false, a lie, and practiced exclusively by con artists. This total lack of focus on what is ACTUALLY TRUE in favor of obedience to a subjective, contradictory, and not-all-that-great set of rules on a website is the fundamental flaw in Wikipedia. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 04:35, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

You've have been blocked for incivility before. Please stop your personal attacks. Consider this a warning. Anthon01 (talk) 11:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Having tested it for myself, I would disagree. —Whig (talk) 04:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

You should publish your results; the Nobel prize awaits! I'll be a coauthor if you need help --88.172.132.94 (talk) 07:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

As one of only several million people who has successfully used homeopathic medicine, I should be awarded a Nobel prize? —Whig (talk) 08:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

That hardly counts as a valid test.Geni 15:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

You're wrong, and you should go away from this article. See how easy that is? Randy Blackamoor (talk) 04:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Randy, you may be trolling as usual, but this still deserves a reply, for those who read your words. Homeopathy is not, as an objective fact, disproven. In fact, there are millions of users around the world who will testify according to personal experience, that homeopathy is effective as a remedy. It is incontrovertible that the science behind homeopathy is unproven, but that does not mean that proof will not eventually come. Lack of proof is not proof of lack. It is uncontrovertible that most scientists consider homeopathy to be a placebo effect, ineffective and unproven, but that is not what this comment is about - it is about WP:NPOV being maintained in the face of intractible POV editors of the "science alone" school. Practitioners of homeopathy are, for the most part, like their medical colleagues, honest, upstanding and honourable people. docboat (talk) 05:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I was going to say that the honesty and sincerity of homeopathic practitioners had nothing to do with whether homeopathy works, but I realized I was wrong. Raymond Arritt (talk) 06:02, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh yes - bed-side manner is a hugely effective tool for increasing (or decreasing) the efficacy of a placebo effect. docboat (talk) 11:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

"This is homeopathy's article" -- well, actually it isn't. Raymond Arritt (talk) 04:47, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Well actually it is, Raymond. If you want an anti-homeopathy article, you should write it. Oh - you have! </g> —Preceding unsigned comment added by Docboat (talk • contribs) 05:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

This is an article about the subject of homeopathy, not just about homeopathy. Most everything about the subject, its claims, it effects, its side effects, its controversies, its friends, its critics, etc.., should be included as long as they are notable, written encylcopedically, and well-sourced. -- Fyslee / talk 06:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Can all of you spend a moment looking up the definition of "implausible" before throwing a fit over it? That word you keep using, I don't think it means what you think it does. Adam Cuerden ^talk 06:50, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Is empiricism unscientific? —Whig (talk) 08:16, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Wha? Shot info (talk) 08:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

If you look at the sum of scientific knowledge and you look at homeopathy, it is just plain hard to make them fit together. They don't necessarily contradict each other in a strictly logical sense, but they don't have much if any common ground. This is what I call "implausible", and try as I might, I can't think of any more accurate or more neutral word to describe this, even though plausibility always has a large subjective element that I would rather avoid. I think homeopaths should be able to accept this description. "It works, but it's unlike anything else we know. Ain't that strange/wonderful/revolutionary?" On the other hand, if "is implausible" is perceived as derogatory (It's hard to keep count, but there seem to be a number of editors of this opinion.), then I am in favor of "seems" or "is considered", since the difference in meaning is insignificant.

Another way out of the dispute might be to simply cut to the chase. Although there are a lot of things that can be criticized about homeopathy, the only one that solidly qualifies as implausible is the notion that substances that are identical at the molecular level can have significantly different biological effects. Maybe we can find a formulation that jumps over the term "implausible" and talks immediately about all solidly verified known effects being mediated by molecules. --Art Carlson (talk) 10:29, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

What does "substances that are identical at the molecular level can have significantly different biological effects" mean? Anthon01 (talk) 11:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

One of the weaknesses of my argument is that it is a bit hard to define precisely once you start looking for exceptions and borderline cases. "Identical atoms" won't cut it because table salt has rather different effects than a mix of sodium metal and chlorine gas. Even identical molecules in the sense of the covalent bonds between atoms isn't enough because of protein folding effects like mad cow disease. In the solid state, you can also go up in scale and build things from identical molecules. The medical consequences of swallowing a BB and swallowing a needle are vastly different, even if they have the same chemical composition. Likewise a cloud scatters light orders of magnitude more effectively than supersaturated moist air of the same composition. It would be a bit easier if we could limit ourselves to liquid water, but we want to say something about alcohol and sugar at the same time. If you look at all these examples, not a one really calls the implausibility of homeopathy into question, but they make it hard to find a precisely accurate formulation. Maybe it's not that important, since whatever we say, we will immediately explain it anyway. --Art Carlson (talk) 12:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

"if "is implausible" is perceived as derogatory (It's hard to keep count, but there seem to be a number of editors of this opinion.), then I am in favor of "seems" or "is considered", since the difference in meaning is insignificant" I'm not of this opinion. Should we change statements like "The earth is spherical" because the Flat Earth Society finds them derogatory? Wikipedia is not censored. It really doesn't matter how offensive people find it, if it can be established as factual. We should not bend to pressure or persistance. We should bend only to reason. Otherwise we may end up with an unfair and unsatisfactory solution as a result of a compromise towards an extreme position. I will be quite happy to accept the word "seems" or "is" or any other "replacement" if anyone can convince me that this is a fair and reasonable solution. with respect to an objective standard. Objective standards should be easy to establish in this case. We have an ArbCom ruling on pseudoscience, we have WP:FRINGE, and we have the precedent set by the other articles. I believe all three of these objective standards suggest that "is implausible" is the most reasonable wording. Scientific consensus statements have been posted and several meta-analyses are included in the article. This should satisfy the the requirements for the Arbcom pseudoscience ruling that states that theories with a following which are widely regarded as pseudoscience may be characterized as such. WP:FRINGE states that "Ideas that have been rejected, are widely considered to be absurd or pseudoscientific, only of historical interest, or primarily the realm of science fiction, should be documented as such, using reliable sources." Homeopathy was acknolwedged to be implausible in the Lancet review. Other wikipedia articles such as the article on Earth state articles of fact with the term "is" as opposed to seem to "The Earth's shape is very close to an oblate spheroid". So there seem to be three objective standards that suggest "is", is the appropriate term if it can be established that there is a scientific consensus that homeopathy is implausible. I believe there are sufficient references to establish such a consensus. Friarslantern argues that "is" should not be used on style grounds. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't consistency throughout the encyoclopedia important to the reputability and professionality of wikipedia and don't the other articles use the term "is"? Also if anyone believes that there is a more fair objective standard than the aforementioned wikipedia guildlines or the ArbCom ruling, please state it. JamesStewart7 (talk) 13:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that not hurting feelings should take a back seat to objective standards. Let's look at your proposed standards:

• ArbCom ruling on pseudoscience, "Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience.": I'm not sure that homeopathy is entirely in the same category as astrology, but even if homeopathy is properly classified as pseudoscience, that doesn't automatically mean it "is implausible". Fine-tuned Universe and Polywater are both classified as pseudophysics, although they are not physically implausible in the sense that homeopathy is.
• WP:FRINGE#Reporting on the levels of acceptance: The authors of the Lancet article claim that homeopathy "seems implausible". We also have the 12 professors saying homeopathy "is an implausible treatment" in a letter to the timesonline.co.uk. The Lancet and the Times themselves do not claim anything, either as fact or as editorial opinion. Nor does either group of authors claim directly that homeopathy is "widely considered" to be implausible. I'm not sure if these sources are strong enough to justify a statement of implausibility as a fact, as opposed to an attributed opinion.
• the precedent set by the other articles: The analogy to the flat earth is rather far-fetched. The evidence against homeopathy and the rejection of it in the scientific community are miles away from the evidence against and rejection of a flat Earth.

I find your arguments for insisting on "is implausible" to be not entirely compelling. --Art Carlson (talk) 14:29, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair points. I was under the impression that the Lancet article used "is" earlier. I rechecked it and it does say "seems". On revew, "seems implausisble" does correspond with the reference but it does seem a little redundant. Of course, the authors of the Lancet review probably didn't pay as much attention to the insertion of one word as everyone is here. Dictionary.com defines implausble as "not having the appearance of truth or credibility" and defines seems as "To give the impression of being; appear". So seems "implausible" would mean "appears to not have the appearance of truth or credibility". So I guess I now also agree with you on the point that the difference is insignificant. However, I have to question what is the reason for making this change. If "seems implausible" means the same thing as "implausible" but with greater redundancy then why should we change it? I think many readers are inclined to interpret phrases with identical meanings differently (see pragmatics). For example "many, many" is often taken to be a greater number than just "many". Similarly "seems implausbile" may be taken as more uncertain than "implausible". I believe this is the reason for the push towards "seems implausible"; to make the statement seem more uncertain than it is and I think everyone needs to take pragmatics into account. After all is "seems implausible" is not perceived as any different to "implausible" why would anyone want it changed? JamesStewart7 (talk) 03:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the most directly applicable indication of policy is the demarcation in the ArbCom ruling between Astrology ("may be categorized as pseudoscience") and Psychoanalysis ("generally should not be so characterized"). I think homeopathy has more in common with psychoanalysis than with astrology, but that can be discussed here. It is interesting to note that psychoanalysis is called pseudoscience by a prominent critic (Karl Popper) and the article cites a statement (Cioffi, 1998) that "an increasing number of scientists regard psychoanalysis as a pseudoscience". The citations we have found calling homeopathy pseudoscience are neither from very notable scientists nor do they make a generalized statement about how widespread that belief is. If we take the ArbCom ruling as our touchstone, it is hard to see why homeopathy should be classified as pseudoscience while psychoanalysis is not. --Art Carlson (talk) 12:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

It is too bad that ArbCom were not more clear with their criteria for calling something pseudoscience. Anyway this is what we have,

"Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized."

"Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience"

Anyway I guess the key differences are "substantial following" vs "following" and "some critics" vs "generally considered by the scientific community". Seeing as 31% of American's believe in astrology, according to the article, I don't think we can read too much into the "substantial following" vs "following difference" so it is left to a matter of assessing the level of scientific consensus about whether homeopathy is pseudoscience. Problematically, the term "pseudoscience" is a rare term to see in a peer reviewed journal for style reasons so we may have to turn to other sources. Although, it may be worth noting that none of the reviews of homeopathy concluded evidence of a specific effect.

This is probably the most comprehensive source for astrology as pseudoscience listed in the article [6] and astrology did attract attention from Hawking [7] and Dawkins [8]. Of course Dawkins doesn't speak very highly of homeopathy either, [9]. Anyway a lot of the articles cited here, [10], seem to be general critiques of the topic, that do not necessarily use the term pseudoscience. So it appears that widespread scientific doubt, along with some allegations of pseudoscience are the required criteria. Who thinks we can establish this? Maybe the approach Nature took such as with this article [11] and their disclaimer "Editorial reservation: Readers of this article may share the incredulity of the many referees. . . There is no physical basis for such an activity. . . Nature has therefore arranged for independent investigators to observe repetitions of the experiments." can give some weight to the notion that scientists commonly consider homeopathy pseudoscience, given the prominence of the journal. JamesStewart7 (talk) 12:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The phrase "Readers of this article may share the incredulity" is about as limp as a dishrag for establishing that homeopathy is "generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community". On the related front of implausibility, the form "no physical basis" gives us another option for that troublesome statement. --Art Carlson (talk) 13:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

There are very important reasons for greater NPOV precision in the choice of words in a controversial article like this:

(1) The current wording makes it appear as an absolute statement of fact, and makes it appear as if the article, and by extension Wikipedia, is making critical POV statements against homeopathy. By clarifying who is making the statement, that changes it from a biased POV sentence to a NPOV sentence that is merely reporting on current mainstream scietific opinion.

(2) The use of "current" rather than "modern" makes it more of a statement of what the knowledge is, rather than subtlely implying that homeopathy belongs in the realm of "outdated" (not-modern) knowledge.

I think "current" sounds too much like it's just the fashion of the month, but I understand that you think "modern" carries more than just a temporal connotation (although it might be justified in this case to indirectly call homeopathy outdated). What do you think of "contemporary pharmaceutical knowledge"? --Art Carlson (talk) 12:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The sentence:

The ideas of homeopathy are scientifically implausible and directly opposed to modern pharmaceutical knowledge.

would be better phrased:

Mainstream science considers the ideas of homeopathy to be scientifically implausible and directly opposed to current pharmaceutical knowledge.

As Docboat stated so well: "Homeopathy is not, as an objective fact, disproven. In fact, there are millions of users around the world who will testify according to personal experience, that homeopathy is effective as a remedy. It is incontrovertible that the science behind homeopathy is unproven, but that does not mean that proof will not eventually come. Lack of proof is not proof of lack." Arion 3x3 (talk) 13:34, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

It would seem you are describing the placebo effect while invoking public opinion to substantiate a certain position. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 14:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec) That idea sounds good until you actually think about it. It's "unproven" that Jupiter lacks a tasty caramel center, or that in the Hindu Kush there's a colony who escaped from the moon. And the proof of either will never come. Raymond Arritt (talk) 14:42, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Ridiculous comments like that will not move us forward to improving this article to NPOV standards. I was pointing out that controversial statements (in any article) should be clear as to the source of those statements. Otherwise, it may appear as if this article, and by extension Wikipedia, is making critical POV statements against homeopathy. Arion 3x3 (talk) 14:47, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Homeopathy gets its say in the first two paragraphs. The third paragraph is the scientific view, and it gets to state exactly what that view is, and should be free of WP:Weasel words such as you suggest. WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience is very clear on this. Adam Cuerden ^talk 15:16, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Sourcing statements that make controversial claims does not fall under WP:Weasel words. I would point out that your link to WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience has the following statement:

Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized.

Calling homeopathy a pseudoscience repeatedly does not make that label any more true. However in the words quoted above, it could be termed a theory which has "a substantial following". Arion 3x3 (talk) 15:35, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

By your logic of "substantial following", creationism is science. Adam Cuerden ^talk 15:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

"on such pages,(homeopathy for ex.) though a view may be spelled out in great detail, it must make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint" this the only rational approach.It is according to the rules as well. --Moon22 (talk) 17:06, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

(1) The logic of "substantial following" is not mine, but that of the link Adam Cuerden provided.

(2) There is no shortage of "reference to the majority viewpoint" in this homeopathy article - that is not the issue being discussed.

I offered a concrete suggestion to make the wording in the article more precise. In response, I got comments about a "tasty caramel center" on Jupiter and creationism! Arion 3x3 (talk) 18:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

"Mainstream science considers the ideas of homeopathy to be scientifically implausible" sounds OK to me. I think it is accurate.--Moon22 (talk) 19:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Isn't that kind of redundant? Adam Cuerden ^talk 19:14, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

"Mainstream science considers homeopathy to be scientifically implausible" sounds better than what is currently there. In fact, Adam, some people consider it to be plausible, hence the modifier, "mainstream." Anthon01 (talk) 21:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The term "mainstream science" bothers me somewhat. It implies there is such a thing as non-mainstream science that may consider homeopathy to be plausible. So can someone please explain to me what this non-mainstream (fringe?) science is and how it is considered science? JamesStewart7 (talk) 03:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Point taken. Plausibility is not a term owned by science. We need to find an acceptable qualifier. Anthon01 (talk) 13:50, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Adam here. The scientific view is that homeopathy is implausible, to to state this in a watered down way is clearly trying to put a spin on the impartial scientific view. Lots of things are implausible but true, so please don't get so worked up about this statement of fact. I also find the oxymoron "homeopathic science" hilarious. That editor needs a humour barnstar! --88.172.132.94 (talk) 21:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

What do y'all think of avoiding the word "implausible" and saying something like "seems to contradict scientific knowledge" or "appears to be inconsistent with known laws of nature"? --Art Carlson (talk) 12:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

You can avoid some words/issues here by saying 'Most scientists regard homeopathy as implausible.' That way you don't need mainstream or fringe. Fact is if some scientists do accept it, they are sure not mainstream. In truth, there are just scientists NOT 'science' as such which is more an abstract concept. my ten penn'orth FWIW Peter morrell —Preceding comment was added at 14:35, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that's a good sentence. The use of homeopathy is growing even among physicians despite the lack of scientific evidence in it's favor. I think physicians count as scientist. Anthon01 (talk) 14:57, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect for physicians, and despite the fact that they have much more scientific training than most people, they don't count as scientists in my book. --Art Carlson (talk) 15:35, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

In which case, why bother with SPOV re this article? what you are saying is that medicine is not a science. I agree. It is not even 50% science. However, it is closely allied to science, esp. chemistry, and actually I think physicians are pretty well steeped in science these days. Can you explain your quibble Art? thanks Peter morrell 15:50, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't mean to be quibbling. I wanted to distinguish between the science of medicine and the practice of medicine. The ones who are qualified to judge the scientific plausibility of homeopathy are the scientists, not the practitioners. I'm not sure if Anthon01 intended his statement to somehow be in support of the "most scientists" wording. It sounds like he is casting toward a "most scientists don't but many physicians do" wording, which would be of questionable truth and relevance both. --Art Carlson (talk) 18:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Warning to rational people on this page

Discussion unrelated to article has been archived. Tim Vickers (talk) 00:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Some of the flat-earthers on this page are impersonating administrators and going around putting warnings for "civility" on the page of anyone who point out the fact that homeopathy is a lie. As usual, be prepared for a long and stupid fight with people who believe in magic if you want to make this page better. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 19:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC) These kinds of comments have no place on an article talk space. Please consider WP:TALK (specifically WP:TALK#Behavior_that_is_unacceptable) and then also consider removing this section. Thanks. -- Levine2112 discuss 19:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC) Shocking, another member of "project: alternative medicine" with a history of pro-magic edits is mysteriously offended by my pro-fact comments on this page. What a coincidence! Randy Blackamoor (talk) 19:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC) I am not offended by your pro-fact comments, though please consider WP:V: The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. I am kindly asking you to refrain from making ad hominem attacks against your fellow editors. I am not pro-magic (though David Blaine is pretty cool) nor do my edits reflect that. I am pro-civility. Please try to respect WP:CIVIL but feel free to vehemently disagree with my position on information for an article, just please do so in a civil manner. That's all. -- Levine2112 discuss 19:44, 11 January 2008 (UTC) I am an administrator, and certainly not an advocate of alternative medicine, but I can assure you Randy that if you continue to make these aggressive and unproductive posts, you will be blocked from editing. Please comment on the text, not other editors. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:50, 11 January 2008 (UTC) Look at it from the point of view of self-interest: you don't want to have the facts on your side and then have the pseudoscience types prevail because you get blocked for incivility. It's a pain that incivility is penalized while disinformation is entirely permissible. But we can't do anything about that. Raymond Arritt (talk) 20:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC) Sure we can: we can get our information from accurate sources written by experts, not from random websites written by whatever agenda-mongering anime fans happen on by, like this one. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 20:22, 11 January 2008 (UTC) The point is that we can all present both (or more) sides of this topic if we resolve to use reliable sources and work together with civility. Wikipedia is not a scientific resource. It is an information resource. It is not a collection of facts. It is a collection of verifiable information. This means that there is room to present all notable POVs which are documented by a WP:RS, no matter how grotesque or absurd or offensive you and anyone else deems them to be. I know it can be frustrating, but please consider WP:NPOV. It will help. -- Levine2112 discuss 20:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC) Randy, I do not think homeopathy has any scientific basis, but I totally disagree with your approach to editing this article. Your hostility has been apparent from the beginning and it is completely counter productive to your apparent goals. Or is it possible you are only here to offend people rather than actually trying to improve the article? Certainly you are on your way to being blocked again if you do become more collegial. David D. (Talk) 20:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC) [wikiepdias NPOV] and is a n important saspect of the comunity and in your zeal to atack homeopathic science you may have accidentaly oberlooked it. i ask tha yyou go back and read the plices mentioned abovetha dotm make sure that you udnertand the purpose of this website sand why you cant just go aroudn assuming abd faith babout everoyne and tring to destroy andy article covering a subject thay ou like. if you ened any more help you can always reread the wikipedia terms and policies. Smith Jones (talk) 20:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC) hbaba dbvba dbboo hruasff dhreufff asmihqa dfheawp humma mumma? Randy Blackamoor (talk) 21:47, 11 January 2008 (UTC) I think that was not very helpful and seems like it may violate WP:NPA. —Whig (talk) 23:24, 11 January 2008 (UTC) While the point could have been made more tactfully it certainly quite a chore to decipher Smith Jones's messages. Note that on his user page Smith Jones states he's a member of the League of Copyeditors, so one presumes he's capable of doing better but can't be bothered. Raymond Arritt (talk) 23:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC) just because si work for hte league of copyeditors doesn t maen that i am some sort of grammer nazi in a informatl conversation i dont want to take the time to tpye extraslow, espeically simnce my keyboard is prone to sticking and it takes a lto fo keystrokes to actually get out my text. randy blackamoors comment was comeptlely uncalled for and absolutely uncessary, and directly a personal attack. there areother ways to express disatisfaction with another editor and none of them invovled the kind of personal attacks and spam that user; blackamoor is currently suspected of inmy Wikiquette report. perhaps it would be beter for all of us if we stoped focusing on ym typing and pay atention to improveing this article, which has deteriorated to the point that its' been protected from editing because the admisn no longer trust us to avoid edit waring over it.s perhaps it would be better if we worked on making it better by limiting the amount of extremis anti-scientific tracrts being pooped out on the article. that is my recommendation and i am stickign to it, regardless of what User: Blackmoor thinks of my spelling. Smith Jones (talk) 23:59, 11 January 2008 (UTC) Did you just accuse me of being a spammer? That's a dreadful violation of the No Personal Attacks and Assume Good Faith policies. I'll be reporting this to the appropriate pages. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 00:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC) NO I DIDNOT ACCUSE YOU OF BEING A SPAMMER PLEASE POINT OUT WHERE ICALLED YOU A SPAMMER. Smith Jones (talk) 00:02, 12 January 2008 (UTC) "none of them invovled the kind of personal attacks and spam that user; blackamoor is currently suspected of" I have not put any "spam" on this or any other page. No one has "suspected" or accused me of doing so, because it has not happened. These violations of WP:AGF and WP:NPA should be dealt with appropriately.

Acute rhinosinusitis

Here is a recent study published in a peer-reviewed journal. German Society of Oto-Rhino-Laryngology, Head and Neck Surgery.

[Homeopathy in acute rhinosinusitis: a double-blind, placebo controlled study shows the efficiency and tolerability of a homeopathic combination remedy HNO. 2007 Apr;55(4):271-7.

BACKGROUND: The efficacy and tolerability of a homeopathic combination remedy for the treatment of acute rhinosinusitis was investigated. PATIENTS AND METHODS: A total of 144 patients with acute rhinosinusitis were treated in a randomized, double-blind study either with a homeopathic remedy (n=72) or placebo (n=72). At the control examinations after 7, 14 and 21 days, five sinusitis-typical symptoms were measured with scores from 0 (absent) to 4 (very strong). The change of sum score of the sinusitis-typical symptoms (max. 20 points) during the treatment served as the primary efficacy criterion. RESULTS: In the homeopathic treatment group, the average sum score dropped from initially 12.1+/-1.6 to 5.9+/-2.0 points after 7 days. In the placebo group it decreased from 11.7+/-1.6 to 11.0+/-2.9 points (p<0.0001). The homeopathic treatment resulted in freedom from complaints in 90.3% of the patients and improvement in a further 8.3%, whereas in the placebo group, the complaints remained unchanged or became worse in 88.9% of the patients. Only one adverse event occurred in one patient from the placebo group. CONCLUSION: The homeopathic product allows an effective and tolerable treatment of acute rhinosinusitis.

Perhaps someone is familiar with this journal. I think it is German. Anthon01 (talk) 00:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I cannot read or speak German, so even if I had run across this journal before, I probably wouldn't remember...but I'd really like to read a translation, if only 'cause I'm amazed the the placebo control group had no improvement, considering that acute rhinosinusitis (sinus infection) is one of those illnesses from which almost everyone recovers completely, without any treatment, within a couple of weeks, and most will show steady improvement after the first couple of days[12]...that sets off a few alarm bells for me, personally, though that would clearly be limited OR. I also can't figure out (Babelfish is very limiting) the in-trial exclusion criteria that led to only 7 of 72 control patients completing the trial (opposed to 61 of 72 verum-treated). Very odd. — Scientizzle 01:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

7 of 72 completed the trial? Where did you get that info? Did you find a full text copy? Anthon01 (talk) 04:11, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. My institution allows access to this journal. I can email the .pdf to anyone (probably tomorrow at the earliest) if you like. — Scientizzle 04:20, 12 January 2008 (UTC

Thanks for the offer. Look like my institution does the same. I'll have to verify tomorrow. I will let you know if I need a copy. Anthon01 (talk) 05:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

unles someoene can vind a reason to think that tiehs joruanl is bogus then ais think this this serves as absolute proof of the exitensece of and powe of homeoapthy. Smith Jones (talk) 03:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Smith Jones, you can't be serious. One study cannot serve as "absolute proof" of anything. Neither would one study absolutely disprove anything. Only through careful weighing of the entire scientific literature on a subject can the development of a scientific consensus occur. In one of the primary Cochrane reviews of homeopathy, the authors analyzed almost 600 different studies and threw out all but about one dozen because there were obvious methodological flaws (if I remember the numbers correctly). This study, ultimately weighted by the soundness of its methodology and the ability to reproduce these results, will become a part of that literature. From it, future work can be designed, methodologies tightened, and hypotheses tested that will better determine if this is a true effect. — Scientizzle 04:17, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

i apoologoze for my shit phrasing of the last post. wot i maeant was whether or not this source wwas absolutely valid ad can be be used as a real source on wikipedia as one of the evidences put foerht by homeopathic physicians to support their sciencific prinviples. Smith Jones (talk) 04:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

We need the full report. Not all double-blind RCTs are actually double blind RCTs. Unless we know things like drop out rates, randomization procedures, success of blinding etc etc we cannot know how reliable the results are. JamesStewart7 (talk) 03:50, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I got the full text, and have the language skills to read it, but I'm not sure my medical knowledge is good enough to properly evaluate it. (It's not relevant to the Wikipedia article anyway, since it's a primary source.) The first thing I notice is that one author is from Weil der Stadt, a German town of 20,000, and the other is from Kiev, where the study was carried out. The study started with 72 in each group. 54 dropped out of the placebo group after 7 days due to "anhaltende Beschwerden" (persistent symptoms), another 9 after 14 days. Only one patient dropped out of the verum group. The data of these patients was included in the final analysis with the "Lastobservation-carried-forward-Methode" (LOCF). The study is desccribed as multi-center, double blind, placebo controlled, and GCP conform, but I didn't see any indication about how the patients were assigned to the groups or how the blinding was carried out. I agree it is at least very suspicious that the sum of the sinusitis typical symptoms in the placebo group sank only from 11.7 to 10.6 over 21 days. The values in the verum group sank from 12.1 to 0.3 in the same period, more consistent with what I would expect from doing nothing. --Art Carlson (talk) 12:00, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Art. That does help clarify the situation for me. I'll take this study with a huge grain of salt (undiluted, please) until there's some indication of proper blinding or demonstrable repetition... — Scientizzle 18:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Regarding "It's not relevant to the Wikipedia article anyway, since it's a primary source," can you please explain the policy to me? Anthon01 (talk) 16:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The policy says "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources." (my emphasis) I said it already here, and JamesStewart7 did a good good of explaining it in the second paragraph of this edit. --Art Carlson (talk) 18:27, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

This reminds me of the standard joke about homeopathy, here told in an article:

• "Many people swear by homeopathy. It is a popular dinner party topic of the Hampstead set, of which I am a member. My friends - otherwise educated, cultured people - say it can help them recover from a cold in just seven days. Yes, I reply, and left alone it would take a whole week." - Source: Homeopathy is worse than witchcraft - and the NHS must stop paying for it

-- Fyslee / talk 05:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Funny, I think? We are still getting to know each other, so please pardon the following question. I take it you don't mean this as a refutation of the study, is that correct? Anthon01 (talk) 05:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Definitely only a joke and an example of common skeptical thinking about homeopathy. Nothing to do with any refutation of the study. The study results are so radically different from other studies, and are so unusual, that it would need to be reproduced (positively) under very strict conditions for most scientists and skeptics to believe it. It falls under the "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" class of studies. While in principle replication of studies is nearly always a good idea before banking on them, studies with such unusual results need very strictly controlled replication to be certain no confounding variables are involved. Only then would it be responsible for anyone - believer or skeptic - to consider it a trustworthy result. -- Fyslee / talk 06:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

My opinion is these kinds of jokes don't really add to the conversation here. —Whig (talk) 06:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

it hink that per wikiepedia's policy of Assume Good Faith we should asume that the German experiment is not fruadulent. Smith Jones (talk) 15:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Assume good faith applies to editors, not to sources. We need to evaluate if the source is reliable. In any case - they had 63 people in the control group drop out, and included them in the study using last observation carried forward. As I read that, that means that they took the last observation of them, and presumed they would have been the same at the end of the study.

That right there would explain any and all difference between the results for a self-limiting condition. Adam Cuerden ^talk 16:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

but its posible that the the homeoapthic technique was more effecitve than the placebo (and, presumably ,re efeective than the allopathic drug regimen). in any cas, i think that hte source is valid as evidence that a homopathic physician might put forth as evidence that he might put foth of his claims. it doesnt PROVE that heomopathic science is real, but its a notable study relating to that matter and should be discussed in the article, mentoning its results and the criticismf of scientific invalidity mentioend on this talk page. Smith Jones (talk) 17:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

It's certainly possible that the homeopathic remedy worked better than placebo, but it's truly difficult to tell from this study: German is not something I can translate on my own, though I found plenty of curiosities within the terrible automated translation I did of the methods section. I'm serious, after such a cursory examination of the results, when I say that I would be skeptical of true worth of the study, no matter the treatment investigated. Pfizer would probably be laughed out of the FDA offices if they offered as clinical proof a trial in which 90% of the placebo group mysteriously disappeared!

This brings up an important point of which you, Smith Jones, may not be aware. Just because a study is published, even in journals of merit, doesn't mean that the results are worth anything. The story of Jacques Benveniste is highly relevant here as an example of ways in which research needed to be repeated in order to reveal the subtle biases that shaped the results towards an erroneous conclusion. On the other end of the spectrum are out-and-out frauds, like Hwang Woo-Suk. Following the fallible peer review step, the publication step is really only a midpoint, not an endpoint, in the progress of a scientific discipline. As I stated above, this study will likely inform future studies through which we can more confidently answer whether this particular remedy, at this particular dilution, given at this particular dose, aiming to treat this particular ailment, in these type of people, is in fact an effective treatment. — Scientizzle 18:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Smith Jones, what people are commenting on here is the fact that the placebo group did so poorly. It is totally out of line with how people usually recover. As a result of this, people call into question the study's conclusions, not because they don't believe that homeopathy works, but because the failure of the placebo group to get any better is indicative of extremely poor study design/misreporting outcomes/fraud/etc. Antelan ^talk 17:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

thats not a fair assumption because te placebo group may have been on poor health of perhaps acute rhinisitis, which sounds like a fiarly serious medical condition, may have effected these people moore severely than it usually did.the reactions of people on a PLACEBO should not automatically invaidate homeopathy. Smith Jones (talk) 17:54, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

It's essential that such an experiment uses two comparable groups. If the placebo group was in poorer health than the others, then it's obvious that it wasn't a properly controlled experiment. Raymond Arritt (talk) 18:52, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

One of the authors has a website in German here, and here is the abstract of another paper published by him. The abstract reads "This paper describes the use of these individual homeopathic remedies in some detail and gives hints to help parents treat their children themselves with the alternative homeopathic remedies available. Complications are very rare." He also says that "the antibiotic treatment usually prescribed for children with middle ear infections is not evidence based." What does that mean? I think this gay is full of SHIT. I wonder if it would be appropriate to ask him about his work. 200.120.226.133 (talk) 20:46, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't really know what to do with the info, but I find it interesting that he claims on his web site that his homeopathy is "classic", but he also recommends a particular sequence of Belladonna D30 followed by Mercurius solubilis D12 for scarlet fever (strep throat?), i.e. he claims to be able to choose an effective remedy on the basis of a clinical diagnosis without even seeing the patient. Peter Morrell claims such practice is rare, but I am not convinced of that. BTW, there is no point in contacting him because he is not a notable authority and personal correspondence is not verifiable. --Art Carlson (talk) 21:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Scarlet fever is a step beyond strep throat, occuring if the infection doesn't clear up and spreads betond the pharynx. It's more dangerous than just a throat infection, and can progress into rheumatic fever, which is even worse and more deadly. <soapbox rant>If you're an adult and you've got arthritis or a headache or the common cold or bunions or other non-life-threatening disease, by all means, take whatever remedies you think will benefit you. However, if you've got a kid with a progressing bacterial infection, please get him or her to a doctor and get cultures for antibiotic and anti-inflammatory treatment.</soapbox rant> — Scientizzle 02:27, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't sure how to translate "Scharlach". German Wikipedia links it to Scarlet fever, which is also how dict.leo.org translates it. But my impression from living in both both countries is that Scharlach is a common and relatively minor thing in Germany, like strep throat is in the USA. --Art Carlson (talk) 09:02, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

eperahps different metholdoiges exis tfor the same homeoapthic treatmet. i remember one homeopathic physicians who used a cerirna forumla to cure a disease which was not documented until he had completedhis proving. Smith Jones (talk) 21:53, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Is there a verson of this paper translated into English by a medical /scientific translator available? I can get high level comment by Head and Neck people at professorial and research levels if needed. My first thoughts are that the implications are limited - I would be keen to know who did the initial diagnosies, age groups, subjects prior experience or beliefs in homeo and a few other things. The study is also limited due to only looking at placebo and homeo, a better study would have included conventional treatments both recomended (evidence based) and marginal(less evidence) as well as a no treatment group and included any evidence of the self limiting nature of any or all of the symptoms.Tim O'Leary (talk) 04:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed that the placebo group dropped from 72 to 63 people before the study was over. In my book this means there was no study to report, hoever until I can read the original paper it's all a bit waffly.Tim O'Leary (talk) 04:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The placebo group dropped from 72 to 7 at the end of the study. — Scientizzle 01:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

We could say the study was incomplete. This study doesn't convince me but it makes me curious, in that the control group symptoms worsened to the point where most of them could not complete the study. All participants were screened with imaging. The objective of the study was to review the sinusitis symptoms in control and experimental groups, after 7 days. Participant selection was made by symptoms and imaging of the sinuses. I can put a translated 'text-only' copy of the study on wikipedia if that is acceptable, temporarily on my talk page if that's ok? A study that isolates homeopathy alone are helpful, in that they help to define where homeopathy might work in greater degrees that placebo. The three group studies you are defining are more expensive and answer a different question. I agree with all your points except the "no study to report" one. Failure is also helpful in that it helps to define future study parameters. THeir prior beliefs don't matter if patients are adequately blinded. --Anthon01 (talk) 22:32, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

People routinely drop out of studies. What I would want to know is (1) do the dropouts have similar characteristics to those who didn't drop out, and (2) was the dropout rate substantially different between placebo and nonplacebo? Antelan ^talk 22:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

You mean pre-study characteristics? Only one dropped out in the experimental group. Anthon01 (talk) 22:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'm talking about the characteristics at the beginning of the trial (obviously not at the end, which is when you hope for a difference). 9 people dropping out of the placebo group vs 1 person dropping out of the experimental group in such a small sample size is noteworthy. Did they explain why they thought this happened? Antelan ^talk 01:43, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The placebo group lost 65 of 72 by the end of the study, 9 were lost from the verum group. — Scientizzle 01:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Hah... ahah. Oh my. I've got better stuff sitting around my bedroom floor. Why are we even talking about this? Antelan ^talk 02:03, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

To answer your question, because their symptoms were not abating. Anthon01 (talk) 03:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Tha fact that 64 out of 72 from the placebo group dropped out and only 9 of the treatment group dropped out would make the average seeker of wisdom (and certainly Ockam) wonder if perhaps the blind wasn't tight and that either the treaters or the treatees or the placebo-ites (or all three)had some knowledge of what was what in the study water bottles.Tim O'Leary (talk) 13:43, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Or the verum worked. Anthon01 (talk) 13:51, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

You haven't caught on yet. The hypothesis that the verum simply worked is indeed internally consistent with the results of the study. The problem is that we also know from sources external to the study that a cold usually goes away in a week or so. Since that wasn't the case with the placebo group, something was screwy. We don't know what, but we know that something went wrong and therefore we can draw no conclusion, either positive or negative, from the study. Put more simply, it's not that it looks like the verum made the patients better, it looks like the placebo made them sicker. --Art Carlson (talk) 14:32, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I got that when I first read the article. Bacterial rhinosinusitis doesn't resolve on its own, and requires antibiotics. 5 days of no improvement or worsening symptoms lends itself to Bacterial rhinosinusitis. Unfortunately, I am reading from a poorly translated copy and can't tell if the screening included WBC counts. Both interpretations are viable. Anthon01 (talk) 16:32, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

From the article, "no improvements were noted in 1.4% of patients in homeopathy group, as opposed to 70.8% of patients in the placebo group." So 29.2% of placebo showed improvement. "In the placebo group, 54 patients dropped out of the study due to persistent complaints after 7 days, another 9 after 14 days." I emailed the author and he says that the large number of dropouts occur because everyone wants an antibiotic. Anthon01 (talk) 18:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I have caught on from the start that the conclusion was reasonably internally consistent. I come from a background where such a large dropout rate would lead to questioning study design and methodology rather than drawing conclusions about efficacy. I think that is also what you are saying. Anyway I didn't come here for an argument. If I'd wanted an argument I would have gone to Talk:High_fidelity or Talk:ScientologyTim O'Leary (talk) 22:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Provings

Does someone have reliable sources on homeopathic provings that are suitable for inclusion? —Whig (talk) 06:35, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Provings? Please clarify. Antelan ^talk 17:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe this helps clarify, and I can find provings for many homeopathic preparations but not all of them are necessarily reliable sources suitable for inclusion. Homeopathic schools and practitioners prove remedies by giving them to healthy people under conditions that attempt to exclude other factors and then collect reports and compare them to one another and prior provings reported of the same remedies. —Whig (talk) 19:11, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

"Homeopathic drug provings" are experiments in toxicology that are usually single-blind or double-blind trials (some provings are not blinded, though many homeopaths do not trust such trials). According to Dantas, 58% of the proving trials conducted between 1945 and 1995 were blinded (Dantas, F., Fisher, P., Walach, H., Wieland, F., Rastogi, D.P., Teixeira, H., Koster, D., Jansen, J.P., Eizayaga, J., Alvarez, M.E.P., Marim, M., Belon, P. and Weckx, L.L.M. 2007. A systematic review of the quality of homeopathic pathogenetic trials published from 1945 to 1995. Homeopathy, 96: 4-16.). These provings are supposed to be conducted on healthy people, and Whig is correct: historically and at present, many schools of homeopathy engage in provings using students as subjects. Provings are a way that students learn about a medicine (and the various symptoms that it is known to cause). Provings are conducted using various potencies, some of which are low potencies and some of which are the 30th potency. Homeopathic texts, called materia medica (Latin for "materials of medicine"), are compendiums of drug provings, and this information about what a substance causes in provings on healthy people is used by homeopaths in books AND software to treat people who are experiencing a similar SYNDROME of symptoms. What is interesting about homeopathic materia medica, even those written in the 19th century, is how much the information in them squares well with modern understanding of a substance's toxicology (information on lead, arsenic, and aluminum are good examples). The big difference is that homeopathic texts provide considerably more detailed information about what a substance causes. The other difference is that there is no discussion on the dose-response issue because homeopaths are more interested in knowing what a substance causes than the dose in which it causes it.

It should be noted that the above article by Dantas and team show that homeopaths provide self-critical assessments of their own field. Although skeptics of homeopathy think that advocates of homeopathy don't look self-critically at our own field, I disagree. One important point about homeopathic drug provings is that they are usually not conducted to "prove" that homeopathy works to skeptics, they are conducted to expand our knowledge about what a medicine causes (and thus, what it can cure when given in homeopathic doses). Because many provings are conducted by people who are not formally trained researchers, the quality of these studies is not always good. However, once again, when you compare homeopathic texts with modern toxicology texts, you find a tremendous amount of overlap.

For people who want to see online some detailed information about some modern drug provings, see: Dana Ullman ^Talk 16:18, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

There have been some double-blind and otherwise high-quality provings, such as this one, cited in the article:

Brien S, Lewith G, Bryant T (2003). "Ultramolecular homeopathy has no observable clinical effects. A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled proving trial of Belladonna 30C". British journal of clinical pharmacology. 56 (5): 562–568. PMID 14651731.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

I think we used to have more discussion of scientific testing of homeopathic dogma on provings, but it got lost along the way. --Art Carlson (talk) 17:37, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

A couple of points re what Art said about using routine remedies, and what Dana said about provings -- they both boil down to the same point in fact. In provings Hahnemann saw from a very early stage that the basic imprint of a remedy establishes itself upon the human economy in the same way every time. So for example the redness, itching and heat of sulphur or the delirium, redness, high fever of Belladonna...these broad images were present in all provers every time. Now, if you were to then find a sickness that affects a whole batch of people in the same way, then yes you could legitimately use the same remedy for that almost on a routine basis as Art said. In fact, Hahnemann used Belladonna precisely in this way in 1801 for an epidemic of Scarlet fever he encountered, as all the cases presented the same image. And he wrote an essay about it. But in general terms and more usually the sickness image of a person is strictly an individual matter and so requires an individually matched well-chosen remedy. This is the standard view within homeopathy as practised by the vast majority of its practitioners. Peter morrell 19:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, that puts the criticism of RCT studies of (non-individualized) homeopathy into perspective. If you choose as the object of your study one of these diseases like scarlet fever, then you can follow the usual clinical procedure, without going to the trouble of individualization, and still get valid results, whether positive or negative. --Art Carlson (talk) 20:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

No, you didn't read what I posted very carefully. The epidemic is the exception to the rule. Most cases of sickness require individualisation period. Even in Scarlet fever several remedies are needed. Same with Cholera. You simply cannot cover every case with one remedy. So your contention is incorrect. You cannot test good homeopathy in the way you suggested. Peter morrell 20:41, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

So you think after all that Dr. Friese's claims are bogus? He says that "Scharlach" is easy to treat homeopathically, and he gives a general regimen, i.e. he recommends the same treatment for everyone and claims that it helps in "almost all cases" in 2-3 days. If that were the case, it would be trivial to design a traditional clinical trial to test it. If I understand you correctly now, you are saying that you don't believe he is correct. --Art Carlson (talk) 21:58, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I would say he is typical of certain homeopaths who want to try and take shortcuts. There are no shortcuts. You prescribe for the sick person in front of you, NOT for an alleged human construct called a 'disease label.' That is a fictional entity as opposed to an empirical entity. Hahnemann explictly spoke about this disticntion and this point about shortcuts to specifics vs. truly holistic prescribing also caused a massive split in American homeopathy in about the 1880s. Here is an article [13] concerning the use of a so-called specific remedy. The article also contains info about the Oscillococcinum remedy made from heart and liver of Barbary Duck thought by some to be a specific for Flu. See also Organon paras 101-104 [14] I would again emphasise that specific remedies are used with some caution and suspicion by homeopaths because above all they wish to individualise each case of sickness. Does this answer your question? perhaps not. I think Dr Freise is probably wrong and certainly not Hahnemannian in what he says. Peter morrell 18:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess we're back on individulization again. Well I know have evidence that inter-rater reliability is poor [15] and often within the realm of chance [16] which indicates that, which in layman's terms means that homeopaths don't often agree about most aspects of diagnosis. In other words it looks like no homeopathy is prescribing for the patient as they can't even agree on the nature of the patient. By the way, is anyone aware of a meta-analyses of these inter-rater reliability trials? I would have no problem with including any claims that homeopaths individualize their treatments as long as it was followed by the Linde individualization meta-analysis (the only meta-analysis in this area which I am aware of) and some inter-rater reliability trials (not necessarily these specific ones and preferrably a secondary source). JamesStewart7 (talk) 08:45, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Homeopathy as ritual

Has there been any research on the possibility that homeopathy may work simply by creating a highly effective placebo? I think it's accepted that a patient's mental state can affect their physical well-being. The ritual of preparation from exotic ingredients, shaking, etc. perhaps reinforces homeopathy as something that both the practitioner and patient can sincerely believe in, thus increasing the effectiveness of the placebo. The only way I can think of to test this would be to replace the homeopath's bottles with something entirely different without their being aware that they were even involved in an experiment and see if the effectiveness of the treatment changed. But that raises obvious ethical questions. Have there been any academic studies along these lines? Raymond Arritt (talk) 16:58, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that's exactly what homeopathy's effects have been ascribed to by orthodox medicine. That test would probably not pass an IRB (not because you'd be violating patients, who would derive the same benefits as before, but because you'd be violating homeopaths). Interesting thoughts, anyway. Antelan ^talk 17:12, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that would be very bad for the homeopaths because their careful observations would be skewed by their lack of knowledge of what to be looking for, however contrary it may seem to the preferred (i.e., double blind placebo controlled trials) methods of pharmaceutical drug studies. For example, someone would not be able to recognize what a Pulsatilla case looks like if they don't see how it affects people in vivo, and if you don't even know if the person has taken Pulsatilla, it would also become harder in the future to recognize Pulsatilla when treating other patients. There is substantial argument in the homeopathic literature that double blind placebo controlled trials are not the optimal way to study this subject. —Whig (talk) 23:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a lot of general placebo research, done by psychologists and others. One review that made a bit of a splash is here, [17]. This review is kind of damning of placebo effects in any area other than pain. However, others have stated that greater placebo effects would be expected outside of double-blind RCTs, as in double-blind RCTs ethics dictates telling a patient that they may be receiving a placebo, lowering expectations. There have been trials comparing a placebo group with a no treatment control in which patients were not told that there was a placebo group. There have also been trials where patients do not know they are receiving the placebo (they're already on a machine that gives injections) and there have been trials where they presented the placebo saying different things (changing expectations). There is a fair bit of this research but most of it is in the area of pain (since placebo effects are most reliably observed there) and most of them do not involve homeopathy (none that I am aware of). Interestingly, the aforementioned review found that placebo effects are virtually the same no matter what placebo is used.

As for what you mentioned, "The only way I can think of to test this would be to replace the homeopath's bottles with something entirely different without their being aware that they were even involved in an experiment and see if the effectiveness of the treatment changed." this has been done when they know they are involved in the experiment but as you said there is no ethical way to recruit someone into an experiment like this without telling them. Also you wouldn't actually be measuring the placebo effect anyway in this design. The only way you can really measure the placebo effect is to compare a no treatment control group to a placebo group. In your design you would really be testing the influence of differing expectations on the placebo effect, not the total of the placebo effect itself. Interesting, but not what we're after. Anyway unless anyone has placebo research on homeopathy itself, maybe we should bring the talk to the Placebo page. The current page is quite comprehensive but there may be a few things to add. JamesStewart7 (talk) 02:41, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting.....which reminds me of a story from my career:

I once had an acquaintance who was a laboratory technician. One day, while we were talking about alternative medicine, she volunteered this interesting experience regarding homeopathy:

She had formerly worked at a compounding pharmacy where they filled orders from various MDs. They also made various medicinal preparations. One of the MDs was also a homeopath. He had certain of his homeopathic "medicines" made there. She told me that she and her associates didn't believe in any of the homeopathic humbug. (They were more logical than the MD!) So they saved a lot of time and effort by filling the little bottles with pure water and labelling them as he had ordered, thus producing a fake “fake medicine”. They figured: “Why actually bother diluting and succussing? It’s fake anyway, so it won’t make any difference." And it didn’t.

He never knew the difference. Neither did his patients. No one complained. No one got hurt. (Clean water in small doses doesn’t usually have unpleasant side effects.) His patients got the same reactions that they usually got. Most of them got better, just as they usually did. No one paid any more or less, or got any more or less, than they usually did. After all, no known type of laboratory analysis in the world would have been able to tell the difference between the usual “medicine” and the “fake” medicine. The only difference was in the discrepancy between the fact and the expectation. (Which happens to be the key to why the placebo delusion works at all.)

What she and her associates did was unethical, illegal and fraudulent. They had received no exemption from informed consent either, as is required for certain types of scientific experiments (where there is an obvious lack of potential harm). What they did was not even officially a research project. But it was certainly one way (illegally) of testing the homeopathic hypothesis. Talk about effective blinding! (see Disclaimer below.)

Now what if, on the other hand, a homeopath and his patients were to sign releases? It would be an effective way to legally test homeopathy.

The ethics can get debated from many angles. What is the difference between a lie and an untruth? What constitutes fraud? What is the difference between ignorance, malpractice, mistakes and fraud? Who had the worst ethics: the homeopath or the lab tech? What is “logic”, the “scientific method”, “mode 2 thinking”, “immunity to cognitive dissonance”, etc. What about the satisfied patient, who replies to all the shocking revelations: "I won’t press charges against anyone. I think it worked for me, and that's all I'm interested in."

Disclaimer: Let me make it perfectly clear.......I am NOT advocating the actions of this particular lab tech as a legitimate way of testing homeopathy! It was unethical, illegal and fraudulent behavior. I am just relating the interesting experience of one of my acquaintances. -- Fyslee / talk 06:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that this is a story we cannot consider reliable for any purpose. Second hand (non-RS/non-V) reports of unethical people claiming they did things and had no negative consequences to them should not be regarded as worthy of further consideration. —Whig (talk) 07:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Whig, this is the talk page, not the article. No one is proposing to use this for the article. Just relax a bit. -- Fyslee / talk 07:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

That's true, and you're right that we can discuss sources here that might not be suitable for inclusion, indeed we might need to discuss them here first to determine that they are suitable. I don't know what is gained by these digressions into stories about people committing fraud and trying to claim this has relevance to homeopathy. —Whig (talk) 07:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Primary and Secondary Sources

So is there any point in presenting peer-review articles that are a 'primary source'? It looks like they are a violation of WP:NOR. You need a second source remote from the original research to comment on the primary in order for it to be acceptable for wikipedia. I missed that one. I thought that an original peer-reviewed ressearch article was acceptable, but it looks like I was wrong. So would a review, letter or commentary in a peer-review journal do? How about commentary in an orginal research article about another research article? Would that do as a secondary source? I'm not so keen on meta-analyses as they require a subjective step in determining which articles to add to the meta-analyses and they have been wrong in the past. Anthon01 (talk) 19:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I also think there have been some published criticisms of those meta-analyses which deserve to be considered as reliable sources for inclusion even if they were not published in the mainstream journals. —Whig (talk) 19:42, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

THere is some criticisms of meta-analyses in general since they require a subjective step and have found to be grossly wrong when compared with large RCTs. Anthon01 (talk) 19:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Can we create an index of proposed sources, and somehow show the controversy clearly here in the talk space, so that at least we will be able to go through that and figure out which sources are not only reliable and suitable for inclusion but also verifiable and of significance? Let's let the sources argue for us. —Whig (talk) 19:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

For starters, here is one controversy:

That 2005 Lancet study acknowledged that there were 22 "high quality" homeopathic studies and only 9 "high quality" allopathic (mainstream medicine) studies. ALL of these studies were high quality, and one fact is that the 2005 Lancet study study verified more than TWICE the number of homeopathic trials were of high quality. Shang never provided analysis of the comparison of THESE high quality trials.

Shang chose to only analyze only the high quality trials that had a large number of subjects. He claimed that the large number of subjects made these trials "unbiased." This assumption is arbitrary. The final 8 homeopathic trials did not include several high quality clinical studies that were published in reputable medical journals, including Pediatrics (the Jacob diarrhea study), the British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology study on using Oscillococcinum in the treatment of influenza, two British Medical Journal trials (1 on asthma and 1 on allergic rhinitis) and one Lancet study on hayfever (all conducted at the University of Glasgow by D. Reilly and team) . . . and many more. Anyone who says that the Shang analysis only included "high quality" trials is uninformed or simply wanted to perpetuate misinformation.

Also, the final 8 homeopathic trials and final 6 allopathic (mainstream medicine) trials were no longer "matched" in any way. Further and of special significance, 6 of the 8 homeopathic studies included the use of only ONE medicine without any degree of individualization that is common in homeopathic treatment (the use of only one medicine for one disease is an exception to the rule; for instance, there is evidence that Kali bichromicum is effective in the treatment of people with Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease - COPD). These large trial studies did not have "external validity" because these trials were not consistent with traditional homeopathic practice. For example, using homeopathic Thyroidinum for weight-loss was one of the final 8 trials even though this is not a common homeopathic practice. Arion 3x3 (talk) 22:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems as if the methodologies of homeopathic and molecular medicine are at odds with one another, but both are scientific disciplines, one which relies upon empirical replication and careful record keeping, the other on large scale sampling. What homeopaths would call a high quality study might be criticized as low quality by the pharmacists, while what the pharmacists would call a high quality study might be criticized as low quality by the homeopaths. We need to put this dispute in context and let the criticisms of each be considered. —Whig (talk) 23:42, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the inclusion of primary sources (original studies) is problematic. Strictly, speaking you don't need a secondary source but if you do not have one, you must describe the study only. However, as we have ample secondary sources and there are lots of studies we should, of course, favour the secondary sources. The meta-analyses are secondary sources. This argument is invalid "Would that do as a secondary source? I'm not so keen on meta-analyses as they require a subjective step in determining which articles to add to the meta-analyses and they have been wrong in the past" as you can't just lump all meta-analyses together. By the same logic we should ignore all science becuase people once thought the earth is flat (then again I'm sure people have proposed similar things). You could also say the same about every reference in the world (how do you know which references are good?) Wikipedia has reliability guildlines WP:RS, WP:V which state that the scholarship and peer review of the Lancet analysis establishes it as reliable.

The other arguments can be summed up with this "these trials were not consistent with traditional homeopathic practice". This disucssion occurred not long ago, Talk:Homeopathy#RCT_trials_the_take_into_account_individualization, Talk:Homeopathy#Constructive_ideas_-_break and I am not prepared to re-enter it unless someone proposes some new ideas as cyclical arguments don't get us anywhere. JamesStewart7 (talk) 23:52, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the goal of this section is a good one. I'll try to locate all the relevant secondary sources available on PubMed tomorrow and list them here. This should include any meta-analyses and systematic literature reviews. I think the sources of each review are an important consideration, as, for example, a positive treatment of homeopathy from a journal like Homeopathy should be viewed with the same lens as one might view a negative review from something like Proceedings of the Academy of Big Pharma and the Medical Establishment. (I just made that up, and I find it amusing. Damn the man!) I know a lot are already within the article, but I think through a group effort we can find an effective way to use relevant sources and weight their impact on the text. Primary sources, like the one in the section above, I think are useful in sections that present the various treatments that have been scientifically explored, and noting methods for those explorations, but shouldn't (generally) be used for any definitive claim concerning the overall efficacy (positive or negative) of a specific treatment for a specific illness. It may be my bias, but I am really uncomfortable using publications in which the study is clearly not blinded or randomized. — Scientizzle 02:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

JamesStewart7: It seems to me that we are assuming that meta-analyses are secondary sources only, when they are primary sources of the conclusions and recommendations they are making. They are secondary sources in that they review articles and determine relative quality. Anthon01 (talk) 22:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Couldn't you say the exact same thing about virtually every secondary source? Every secondary source makes a conclusion based on the primary sources. That's the whole point of writing them. Wikipedia guidlines state that a source making analytic and synethic claims are still secondary sources "Secondary sources may draw on primary sources and other secondary sources to create a general overview; or to make analytic or synthetic claims." JamesStewart7 (talk) 07:04, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Primary source: direct information about the subject. Secondary source: discusses information originally presented elsewhere. The individual studies count as primary sources, reviews and analyses are secondary sources, and wholly appropriate to meet WP:SOURCES. — Scientizzle 07:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Seems to me the review part is secondary and the analytical or synthetic claims may be primary. The sources page states that "Primary and secondary are relative terms, and some sources may be classified as primary or secondary, depending on how it is used." Some meta-analyses use novel approaches to classifying articles for inclusion. That those novel approaches get a pass makes no sense to me. Those novel approaches are primary research and if those methods are used to reach a conclusion then the conclusion is OR and should be classified is a primary source. Anthon01 (talk) 14:25, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

What novel approaches? I'm assuming we are referring to some meta-analysis is the article and I know the Lancet review is most contentious (which I think has a lot more to do with its damning conclusion than its methodology). As far as I am aware though, the procedures used in the Lancet meta-analyses were quite standard and I'm going to preempt some replies by saying that almost all large meta-analyses exclude a number of studies on quality grounds. JamesStewart7 (talk) 05:47, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect Entry

Under the section titled "Contemporary Prevalence" the following entry is incorrect:

"Homeopathy is not officially recognized by Federal Food and Drug Act in Canada..."

For many years homeopathy has been recognized by the Federal Government of Canada. This can be verified as the homeopathic medicines licensed during that time identified with a Drug Identification Number, or DIN, on the label. More recently a new directorate was created and in 2004 homeopathic medicines came under the regulatory authority of the Natural Health Products Directorate (still regulated under the Food and Drug Act). Homeopathic Medicines licenced under the new directorate wil be labelled with a DIN-HM, where the HM indicates homeopathic medicine.

Kindly go to the Natural Health Products Directorate webpage of the Health Canada website to confirm this information:

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/prodnatur/index_e.html

Jennyd777 (talk) 02:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)jennyd777

From [18], "Section 3(2) of the Food and Drugs Act prohibits the sale of drugs, including natural health products, that are labelled, or that are advertised to the general public, for the treatment, prevention or cure of the diseases, disorders, or abnormal physical states listed on Schedule A." There is a health act that recognizes homeopathic remedies (not homeopathy itself, probably a minor distinction here). The act prohibits advertisement of homeopathic remedies as being advertised as treating, preventing, or curing diseases listed on Schedule A. Perhaps the article should be updated. Antelan ^talk 02:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

On second thought, maybe this actually isn't as relevant here as I had thought: No, the Natural Health Products Regulations are not aimed at regulating the practice of complementary and alternative health care practitioners or the practice of traditional Aboriginal medicine. Health care practitioners (for example, pharmacists, Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) practitioners, herbalists, naturopathic doctors, etc.) who compound products at the request of a patient are not included within the manufacturer definition. [19] Not sure of the context where this would come into play just yet. Antelan ^talk 02:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Reviews and meta-analyses...get your secondary sources, folks!

There are 398 papers that fall under the "Reviews" tab at PubMed on the query "Homeopathy" (out of 3545 total papers). Below are a selection of interesting papers (that my institution can access) from the last couple of years, with money-quotes from abstract conclusions. I stopped after a couple dozen, travelling back to ~2002; this list isn't close to exhaustive, but it may prove useful for discussion & article building. Any responses should probably be made in a new section, or a subsection of this one, just for navigational clarity.

• Coulter MK, Dean ME (2007). "Homeopathy for attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder or hyperkinetic disorder". Cochrane Database Syst Rev (4): CD005648. doi:10.1002/14651858.CD005648.pub2. PMID 17943868.

There is currently little evidence for the efficacy of homeopathy for the treatment of ADHD.

• Bell IR (2007). "Adjunctive care with nutritional, herbal, and homeopathic complementary and alternative medicine modalities in stroke treatment and rehabilitation". Top Stroke Rehabil. 14 (4): 30–9. doi:10.1310/tsr1404-30. PMID 17698456.

...some homeopathically prepared remedies show promise for reducing infarct size and associated impairments...Individualized homeopathy may even play a helpful adjunctive role in treatment of sepsis. However, a great deal of systematic research effort lies ahead before most of the options discussed would meet mainstream medical standards for introduction into routine treatment regimens.

• Witt CM, Bluth M, Albrecht H, Weisshuhn TE, Baumgartner S, Willich SN (2007). "The in vitro evidence for an effect of high homeopathic potencies--a systematic review of the literature". Complement Ther Med. 15 (2): 128–38. doi:10.1016/j.ctim.2007.01.011. PMID 17544864.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

...experiments with a high methodological standard could demonstrate an effect of high potencies. No positive result was stable enough to be reproduced by all investigators. A general adoption of succussed controls, randomization and blinding would strengthen the evidence of future experiments.

• Altunç U, Pittler MH, Ernst E (2007). "Homeopathy for childhood and adolescence ailments: systematic review of randomized clinical trials". Mayo Clin. Proc. 82 (1): 69–75. PMID 17285788.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

The evidence from rigorous clinical trials of any type of therapeutic or preventive intervention testing homeopathy for childhood and adolescence ailments is not convincing enough for recommendations in any condition.

• Dantas F, Fisher P, Walach H; et al. (2007). "A systematic review of the quality of homeopathic pathogenetic trials published from 1945 to 1995". Homeopathy. 96 (1): 4–16. doi:10.1016/j.homp.2006.11.005. PMID 17227742. {{cite journal}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

The [studies] were generally of low methodological quality...Homeopathic medicines, tested in HPTs, appear safe. The central question of whether homeopathic medicines in high dilutions can provoke effects in healthy volunteers has not yet been definitively answered, because of methodological weaknesses of the reports...

• Ernst E (2006). "Complementary or alternative therapies for osteoarthritis". Nat Clin Pract Rheumatol. 2 (2): 74–80. doi:10.1038/ncprheum0093. PMID 16932660.

The results suggest that, for several treatments, the risk-benefit profile is encouraging...For other therapies the evidence is weak or contradictory: homeopathy...

• Thachil AF, Mohan R, Bhugra D (2007). "The evidence base of complementary and alternative therapies in depression". J Affect Disord. 97 (1–3): 23–35. doi:10.1016/j.jad.2006.06.021. PMID 16926053.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Complex Homoeopathy...showed inconclusive results.

• Bornhöft G, Wolf U, von Ammon K; et al. (2006). "Effectiveness, safety and cost-effectiveness of homeopathy in general practice - summarized health technology assessment". Forsch Komplement Med (2006). 13 Suppl 2: 19–29. doi:10.1159/000093586. PMID 16883077. {{cite journal}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

effectiveness of homeopathy can be supported by clinical evidence and professional and adequate application be regarded as safe.

• Pilkington K, Kirkwood G, Rampes H, Fisher P, Richardson J (2006). "Homeopathy for anxiety and anxiety disorders: a systematic review of the research". Homeopathy. 95 (3): 151–62. doi:10.1016/j.homp.2006.05.005. PMID 16815519.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

On the basis of this review it is not possible to draw firm conclusions on the efficacy or effectiveness of homeopathy for anxiety.

• Passalacqua G, Bousquet PJ, Carlsen KH; et al. (2006). "ARIA update: I--Systematic review of complementary and alternative medicine for rhinitis and asthma". J. Allergy Clin. Immunol. 117 (5): 1054–62. doi:10.1016/j.jaci.2005.12.1308. PMID 16675332. {{cite journal}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Some positive results were described with homeopathy in good-quality trials in rhinitis, but a number of negative studies were also found. Therefore it is not possible to provide evidence-based recommendations for homeopathy in the treatment of allergic rhinitis, and further trials are needed.

• Milazzo S, Russell N, Ernst E (2006). "Efficacy of homeopathic therapy in cancer treatment". Eur. J. Cancer. 42 (3): 282–9. doi:10.1016/j.ejca.2005.09.025. PMID 16376071.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Our analysis of published literature on homeopathy found insufficient evidence to support clinical efficacy of homeopathic therapy in cancer care.

• Sarzi-Puttini P, Cimmino MA, Scarpa R; et al. (2005). "Osteoarthritis: an overview of the disease and its treatment strategies". Semin. Arthritis Rheum. 35 (1 Suppl 1): 1–10. doi:10.1016/j.semarthrit.2005.01.013. PMID 16084227. {{cite journal}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

There is [no] evidence for the pain-relieving efficacy of...homeopathy

• Pilkington K, Kirkwood G, Rampes H, Fisher P, Richardson J (2005). "Homeopathy for depression: a systematic review of the research evidence". Homeopathy. 94 (3): 153–63. PMID 16060201.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

the evidence for the effectiveness of homeopathy in depression is limited due to lack of clinical trials of high quality

• Pittler MH, Ernst E (2005). "Complementary therapies for reducing body weight: a systematic review". Int J Obes (Lond). 29 (9): 1030–8. doi:10.1038/sj.ijo.0803008. PMID 15925954.

The evidence related to...homeopathy...is not convincing enough to suggest effectiveness.

• Vickers AJ, Smith C (2006). "Homoeopathic Oscillococcinum for preventing and treating influenza and influenza-like syndromes". Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 3: CD001957. doi:10.1002/14651858.CD001957.pub3. PMID 16855981.

Current evidence does not support a preventative effect of Oscillococcinum-like homeopathic medicines in influenza and influenza-like syndromes.

• McCarney RW, Linde K, Lasserson TJ (2004). "Homeopathy for chronic asthma". Cochrane Database Syst Rev (1): CD000353. doi:10.1002/14651858.CD000353.pub2. PMID 14973954.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

There is not enough evidence to reliably assess the possible role of homeopathy in asthma.

• Smith CA (2003). "Homoeopathy for induction of labour". Cochrane Database Syst Rev (4): CD003399. doi:10.1002/14651858.CD003399. PMID 14583972.

There is insufficient evidence to recommend the use of homoeopathy as a method of induction.

• Smolle J (2003). "Homeopathy in dermatology". Dermatol Ther. 16 (2): 93–7. PMID 12919110.

To date, however, there is no convincing evidence for a therapeutic effect. There are only a few controlled trials, most of them with negative results. The few studies with positive results have not been reproduced.

• Ullman D (2003). "Controlled clinical trials evaluating the homeopathic treatment of people with human immunodeficiency virus or acquired immune deficiency syndrome". J Altern Complement Med. 9 (1): 133–41. doi:10.1089/107555303321223008. PMID 12676041.

homeopathic medicine may play a useful role as an adjunctive and/or alternative therapy.

• Jonas WB, Kaptchuk TJ, Linde K (2003). "A critical overview of homeopathy". Ann. Intern. Med. 138 (5): 393–9. PMID 12614092.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Three independent systematic reviews of placebo-controlled trials on homeopathy reported that its effects seem to be more than placebo, and one review found its effects consistent with placebo. There is also evidence from randomized, controlled trials that homeopathy may be effective for the treatment of influenza, allergies, postoperative ileus, and childhood diarrhea. Evidence suggests that homeopathy is ineffective for migraine, delayed-onset muscle soreness, and influenza prevention. There is a lack of conclusive evidence on the effectiveness of homeopathy for most conditions.

• Ernst E (2002). "A systematic review of systematic reviews of homeopathy". Br J Clin Pharmacol. 54 (6): 577–82. PMID 12492603.

It is concluded that the best clinical evidence for homeopathy available to date does not warrant positive recommendations for its use in clinical practice.

• Shang A, Huwiler-Müntener K, Nartey L; et al. (2005). "Are the clinical effects of homoeopathy placebo effects? Comparative study of placebo-controlled trials of homoeopathy and allopathy". Lancet. 366 (9487): 726–32. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(05)67177-2. PMID 16125589. {{cite journal}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Biases are present in placebo-controlled trials of both homoeopathy and conventional medicine. When account was taken for these biases in the analysis, there was weak evidence for a specific effect of homoeopathic remedies, but strong evidence for specific effects of conventional interventions. This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects.

---

Regarding the physical details in homeopathy research: Becker-Witt C, Weisshuhn TE, Lüdtke R, Willich SN (2003). "Quality assessment of physical research in homeopathy". J Altern Complement Med. 9 (1): 113–32. doi:10.1089/107555303321222991. PMID 12676040.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Johnson T, Boon H (2007). "Where does homeopathy fit in pharmacy practice?". Am J Pharm Educ. 71 (1): 7. PMID 17429507. is interesting in its hands-off analysis of the dispute within clinical medicine over the validity of homeopathy and its implications for pharmacists.

Maxion-Bergemann S, Wolf M, Bornhöft G, Matthiessen PF, Wolf U (2006). "Complementary and alternative medicine costs - a systematic literature review". Forsch Komplement Med (2006). 13 Suppl 2: 42–5. doi:10.1159/000093313. PMID 16883079.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) is interesting in its exploration of the costs of alternative medicines compared to standard care.

Caulfield T, DeBow S (2005). "A systematic review of how homeopathy is represented in conventional and CAM peer reviewed journals". BMC Complement Altern Med. 5: 12. doi:10.1186/1472-6882-5-12. PMID 15955254.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link) -- this review highlights alleged "publication bias" (though they also state within the text that the results could just as easily be explained by "submission bias"). It's a quick read, and worthy for putting some of the above studies in more context.

I'll leave the floor open (for now) for anyone to explore the use of these or other studies in the present article. — Scientizzle 22:48, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Homeopathy and COPD

This study has been mentioned before, and Dana Ullman has introduced a ref to it in the Potassium dichromate article, stating that it shows homeopathy to be effective above placebo in treating COPD. If this is true then it is relevant for here, however I'm very sceptical, so could a few of us please give this journal a good review. It is from the Chest Journal (impact, rating?) and can be found here. Sorry if this has been discussed before --88.172.132.94 (talk) 17:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Strange that the standard errors on the two groups actually overlap, particularly the errors of both length of stay and extubations. Since this is a very small difference in a very small clinical trial this isn't particularly convincing evidence of anything. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I am a little puzzled by your reaction. What errors are you talking about? Here is info on Chest.[20] Click on the 'Chest" link to get detailed info. It is one of the most reputable journals. The difference between the 2 groups is significant. Anthon01 (talk) 22:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

These are not standard errors, but standard deviations. The difference will become significant if the number of cases is high enough, even if the overlap is large, as long as the means do not converge. Guido den Broeder (talk) 22:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

When that happens, it may be noteworthy. Antelan ^talk 22:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it has happened, as the article shows. Guido den Broeder (talk) 22:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I mean when the number of cases becomes high enough (current study had 50 cases). Favorite line from the study: The effect may be best explained by cybernetics, which means that the information of the homeopathic drug acts consensually on the regulator. Antelan ^talk 22:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

And 50 cases proved to be high enough. Guido den Broeder (talk) 22:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

How can you say it was not due to the skewed distribution of healthier patients? Fifty is not exactly a large sample. David D. (Talk) 22:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that the assumption of a normal distribution was incorrect? It would not be decisive, I wager. Fifty is quite large for these purposes. Oftentimes, twenty is already enough. Guido den Broeder (talk) 22:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm saying with a small number of patients there might not be a normal distribution by chance. This is always the big flaw with medical trials, Pharma or homeopath alike. David D. (Talk) 22:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The normal distribution is assumed for the population, not the sample. The parameters of the distribution are estimated from the sample, which is always open to uncertainty, but that does not necessarily lead to an overestimation of significancy. There is a lot more to it than that, but with 50 patients it is all likely to be a very minor issue. The thing to watch out for is the occurrence of outliers, which should always be investigated (e.g., they can be misdiagnosed patients). Guido den Broeder (talk) 21:39, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

"Cybernetics" and "consensual" drugs? I think we can safely files this one under nonsense. Jefffire (talk) 22:33, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea why? Please explain. Anthon01 (talk) 22:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I think you do know. Now if you'll pardon me, I need to quantum rectify my tea with a flux capacitor. Jefffire (talk) 22:48, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

No I don't. Anthon01 (talk) 23:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Gobbledygook. David D. (Talk) 23:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Please look at the definitions of those words. The study should be judge on whether it is a RS first, then study design, and not the choice of words in the discussion. Anthon01 (talk) 00:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Only 50 in the sample has been discussed. David D. (Talk) 00:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Probability was 1 in 10,000. You comments above seem to be based on a 'belief' that homeopathy doesn't work. Is that right? Anthon01 (talk) 01:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd say the same for any trial with so few participants. It has nothing to do with homeopathy. David D. (Talk) 05:57, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

That probability is the liklihood of the set of data representing a "real" difference in in the mean and variation that derives from the treatment, and is dependent upon the assumptions that 1. there was no "real" difference between the groups prior to the treatment and 2. no "real" difference in the application of the treatment compared to the placebo. I challenged that first assumption (see my comments on the other talk page). — Scientizzle 01:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

What is your reason for challenging the first assumption? Anthon01 (talk) 19:51, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

As the study was performed in 2005 and has not achieved a place in standard practice, has had no published follow-up research, and has received no citations that I have found, I don't see how this is noteworthy. Antelan ^talk 01:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

There are two studies currently in the works. Anthon01 (talk) 19:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

When they report results, we'll chat. For now, see Scientizzle's point, below. Antelan ^talk 19:51, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

This has gone off the rails a bit, and really should end--it's not helping the development of this article...further discussion could be held at Talk:Potassium_dichromate#COPD, but three of us have already hashed out a lot. Shall we all just agree to disagree and wait for the future replications to better confirm or disconfirm these findings? — Scientizzle 01:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, discussion would be appropriate here if the article were used to provide scientific evidence for homeopathy. I can see a difference (an error in the control preparation which could plausibly make a difference in effectiveness). But perhapsTalk:Potassium_dichromate#COPD would be better. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 19:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Adding the National Center for Homeopathy

I would like an admin to add an external link to the National Center for Homeopathy, the primary organization representing Homeopathy in the United States. Their website is http://www.nationalcenterforhomeopathy.org I do not believe that this warrants discussion because the organization is essential to Homeopathy, and an external link is an obvious addition. Thanks. Strubin (talk) 04:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not essential to homeopathy - it's an American homeopathic organization. That said, why don't you just go ahead and add the link yourself? Antelan ^talk 06:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The article is currently fully protected...that's why. That said, I'm not convinced the link is necessary (which is why I haven't added it). Is the organization truly a standard-bearer for American homeopathy? Per WP:EL, does it "provide a unique resource" without serving as too promotional, and is there some overwhelming reason why this organization should be the only such one listed in the external links section? — Scientizzle 06:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Seeing as it has a store page and an advertising page it is at least a little promotional. Also a google search for "America homeopathy" brings up this, [21] as the first link. A search for "United States homeopathy" brings up this [22] as its first link, a site which lists several USA homeopathy organisations. I see no reason to place the National Center for Homeopathy above all of these other organisations. JamesStewart7 (talk) 08:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

An even better question would be, why, if this organization is as important as Strubin claims it to be, has it not been added to the article until now? I think thats a better question. But regardless, its not really a necessary link. Just my 1.84 cents (damn American dollar). Baegis (talk) 08:27, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

This is clearly not a non-controversial edit, so I've deleted the template without editing the page. Please do not re-add it unless you have an undeniable consensus to do so. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 19:48, 16 January 2008 (UTC) tobe preferctly honest, i dont see why the foremsot site for homeoatphy is banned from beng mentioned on the article for homeoatphy. woudl you ban the CDC's website on the CDC's own page!? it is very disturbing and sems somewhat suspicious baring any actual ruels prohibitinmg its inclusion. Smith Jones (talk) 19:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The rule prohibiting its inclusion is the following, from WP:PROT: "Pages protected due to content disputes should not be edited except to remove content which clearly violates content policies, such as obvious vandalism or copyright violations, to make changes unrelated to the dispute, or to make changes for which there is clear consensus on the discussion page." Sarcasticidealist (talk) 19:52, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I hate to be ugly about this, but this isn't a good link, nor is it uncontroversial. I get the feeling this is being proposed because strubin's wife is on the board of directors.[23] Cheers, Skinwalker (talk) 23:52, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

What a delightful oversight on strubin's part. Hmm... Baegis (talk) 03:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Obsolete medical theories

I don't see how a theory that is still being practiced can be called obsolete. Is there another term that could be possibly used?Tstrobaugh (talk) 18:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

How long has it been in that category? I agree it sounds a little weird since there are medical doctors who currently prescribe such prescriptions along with a booming industry selling the stuff. Whether it works or not is irrelevant to whether it is obsolete, isn't it? David D. (Talk) 20:21, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

From Wiktionary, first definition: "(of words, equipment, etc.) no longer in use; gone into disuse; disused or neglected (often by preference for something newer, which replaces the subject)." This is blatantly not the case with homeopathy in general. However, it gets a bit trickier when you consider it only on the basis of being a medical theory. Certainly, it's fallen out of favor among a majority of licensed doctors, but there is a notable subsect of them which uses it (and medical schools which teach it). Looking through the other articles in this category, they all seem to easily meet the standards of being obsolete, and I don't see any theories there which might be comparable to homeopathy. In the end, I think this category is best removed (once the article is unprotected, of course). --Infophile ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 20:47, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'm not aware of (American) medical schools that teach this. Medical schools teach about homeopathy as a matter of awareness. There are schools that teach homeopathy, but they are not licensed medical schools. That said, the theory of homeopathy is more in contradiction to mainstream medical science than it is obsolete. There's no category for the former, of course. Antelan ^talk 21:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It got added last July during a flurry of edits. Filll asked "I believe that this category is appropriate and accurate and will make the article easier to find. comments?"[24] So belatedly, I do have a comment, i don't think it is appropriate given it is still in use today. David D. (Talk) 21:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Guido den Broeder (talk) 21:28, 17 January 2008 (UTC)