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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Allan Nonymous (talk | contribs) at 17:09, 8 July 2024 (→‎"Right-wing" or "Right-wing to far-right" or "Far-right?": Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Accuracy of "Christian-democratic" ideology

I'm doubting whether christian-democracy is a correct tag for this alliance. There's a citation right now courtesy of @FellowMellow, but the only person calling it christian-democratic is a member of Orban's party. That party self-describes as christian-democratic, but that does not seem to be accurate (consensus on the Fidesz page is to call it national conservative and right-wing populist). The self-description does not seem a good reflection of reality there. FellowMellow (and other Wikipedians), what do you think? Cayafas (talk) 07:47, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The alliance was created to focus on one aspect of promoting Christian values. I don’t think @Cayafas is correct, when he is suggesting that the ideology should be based on what the other parties have. They all have different values. Might I mention that in the article, it was said "patriotic, conservative, and Christian democratic." It makes me wonder why @Cayafas is not disputing national conservatism, but is disputing Christian democracy. I wouldn’t really call it a self description. It looks like that’s what the party is seeking to advocate for. - FellowMellow (talk) 14:00, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@FellowMellow: You are actually incorrect. Ideologies are based in third-party sources, not self-references. If that were the case, a number of parties would be self-described, instead of their actual ideology. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 13:07, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually no I’m not incorrect. You are incorrect. The source says same with conservatism, but so far you haven’t reverted that. - FellowMellow (talk) 13:16, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@FellowMellow: "patriotic, conservative, and Christian democratic" is a self-description from a Fidesz politician. It isn't stated elsewhere in the article, and certainly not by the journalist of the article. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 13:24, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the would-be member parties are Christian-conservative, but I surely would not mention "Christian democracy". See below. --Checco (talk) 17:04, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It’s better than using right-wing populism that has no source for it. - FellowMellow (talk) 14:46, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Link is provided in message below. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 14:55, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A description of Prime Minister Orbán is not a valid source to define the ideology of the alliance. - FellowMellow (talk) 15:00, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ideology: a broader look

I would have "right-wing populism" alone in the infobox. However, we could also have one among "conservatism", "national conservatism" or "nationalism". --Checco (talk) 17:04, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Right-wing populism is unsourced. Unless you can provide a source, right-wing populism should stay out of the infobox. Sources say right-wing, but populism is missing. I think the ideology should include sovereigntism, as one of the big reasons to the formation of the alliance deals with advocacy for stronger powers for the European countries to make own decisions without EU involvement. - FellowMellow (talk) 17:10, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Sovereigntism" is not an ideology, it is a neologism used by some parties in order not to use terms like "nationalism". Surely, "right-wing populism" is a broad-church description that perfectly suits this outfit. Finally, "anti-immigration", "anti-Green Deal" and "Euroscepticism" are policies, not ideologies. --Checco (talk) 17:15, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are mistaken. "Anti-immigration" and "Euroscepticism" are widely used in political party infoboxes. Please check examples such as Party for Freedom, Europe of Nations and Freedom, Identity and Democracy (and also check ideology section of ID, where it includes "sovereigntist." There are more articles that also use this like the German BSW (Euroscepticism) or the Dutch BBB (Soft Euroscepticism). "From Wikipedia, Sovereigntism, sovereignism or souverainism, meaning the ideology of sovereignty) is the notion of having control over one's conditions of existence, whether at the level of the self, social group, region, nation or globe." Also from Wikipedia, "In Europe, sovereigntist political movements divide (on the one hand) between those that seek to leave the European Union completely (or oppose joining it) and (on the other), those who aim for a "Europe of the nations", a less integrated Europe respecting the individual characteristics and sovereignty of constituent states." Therefore, it is an ideology and is legitimate. - FellowMellow (talk) 17:22, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those are mistakes, indeed. There is a movement aimed at reducing the number of ideologies or supposed ideologies in party infoboxes. --Checco (talk) 17:23, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well to you it may seem to be a mistake, however these ideologies have been there for a very long time. Since they are still there and have been for quite a while, your argument about such movement is not of any legitimacy. Right-wing populism does not make any sense, at least not without a source. There is no third-party source that I have seen or been shown that mentions the word "populism." That is why that ideology should not be in the infobox, at least not until there is confirmation. As for your other proposed ideologies, I would only indicate my support (as I have said from the beginning) about the use of national conservatism. That I have always been in favor of using for this article and it seems you agree with me on that. - FellowMellow (talk) 17:31, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia users try not to make party pages less informative challenge: impossible.
Euroscepticism or Pro-Europeanism is a completely valid ideology and for European parties first and foremost is useful. "anti-immigration" and "anti-Green Deal" are policies, while Euroscepticism and pro-Europeanism is an ideology. Zlad! (talk) 18:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn’t make sense why other political party articles have this and remain untouched, but for some reason (on here), some users are bothered by this, while ignoring the fact that other articles have this. Makes no sense to me. - FellowMellow (talk) 18:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They are trying to establish a consensus that pro-Europeanism / Euroscepticism should be removed from ALL articles. The discussion is taking place on the talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pro-Europeanism Zlad! (talk) 20:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This does seem excessive. Regardless, I think we can agree that national conservatism and sovereigntism (which may be a bit of a neologism, but RS most often use it over nationalism) are both valid and helpful to include. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 16:36, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps a little, but still regarded an ideology - FellowMellow (talk) 18:50, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly disagree with the term "sovereigntism" as it is not politically neutral within the context of European politics. Parties like the EGP, Volt, and ALDE also emphasize sovereignty, but with a different interpretation. Consider Macron's Sorbonne speech for example. Sovereigntism is at best non-descriptive and at worst disingenuous. Transparentrose (talk) 05:31, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe "National Sovereigntism" Would give the kind of specificity you are looking for? JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 15:39, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would add Euroscepticism to Right-Wing Populism as well. Zlad! (talk) 22:06, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yet, you admitted that it was an ideology.
Also right wing populism should not be added without proper sourcing. - FellowMellow (talk) 00:38, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We have sources for nationalism and far-right populism, for now. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 09:18, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Orban’s group, Patriots for Europe, wants to pursue a far-right populist agenda, which includes plans to curtail the European Union’s influence in national politics, revert power to member states and limit immigration into the bloc." is mentioned in the Bloomberg article, so we could also conclude that it is also Eurosceptic and anti-immigration. Vacant0 (talk • contribs) 09:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I support using the descriptions Eurosceptic and anti-immigration in the article body, as supported by current sources, but I have a strong oppose position to either being in the Infobox – both are policy positions, not political ideologies. Also, (right-wing) populism and nationalism inherently imply both those policy positions to a large extent, and those are actual ideologies. (And no, I don’t care if other articles list “Euroscepticism” in Infoboxes. It is a poor practice that should be avoided.)— Autospark (talk) 09:53, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Autospark: Completely agree with you. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 10:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nationalism makes sense, right-wing populism does not. The source I read about populism is not there. Nationalism should belong in the infobox, but right-wing populism should not. - FellowMellow (talk) 14:34, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@FellowMellow: This states "National populist", which is another phrase for "right-wing populism, as you can see here. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 14:50, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"There is a "conservative, patriotic, right-wing, Christian Democratic way as well," that Fidesz represents, he said." was made by Peter Szijjarto, a Fidesz Foreign Minister. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 14:52, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you serious? So you are suggesting placing an example of a description of Prime Minister Orbán as an official ideology of the alliance? How wrong can that be. It says "Speaking at a press conference in Vienna flanked by "Patriots For Europe" signs, the national populist and strident Brussels "critic" added that "This will happen within days, and after that the sky is the limit." That is a description of PM Orban, not the alliance. That is an invalid argument and the source does not describe the alliance as "national populist." You are incorrect again. - FellowMellow (talk) 14:55, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly agree with adding "nationalism" and "right wing populism" to the ideology with these sources. There are bound to be more, too. Cayafas (talk) 10:14, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would argue for "sovereigntism" over "nationalism," since reliable sources much more frequently use this term. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 16:38, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with @JustAPoliticsNerd about the use of sovereigntism. - FellowMellow (talk) 18:52, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There should only be "right-wing populism", as the ideology is referenced by another name in the article, which is mentioned on the Wikipedia page. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 10:33, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely wrong and I 100% disagree @ValenciaThunderbolt. You can’t make decisions based on hypocritical choices. You have repeatedly engaged in reverts of ideologies that were unsourced, yet want to add an ideology without a source. - FellowMellow (talk) 13:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're adding self-refs. What I did was re-add a reference from the article that states "national populist", which is another name for "right-wing populism". The ideologies you were adding were stated by a member of the Hungarian government, who is a Fidesz member. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 13:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You’re in the wrong. It’s not a self-ref. @Checco proposed conservatism, which also a seff-ref. You have provided no sources whatsoever. National populist does not equate with right-wing populism. Also the ideology I added was not from Fidesz. It was a description of the alliance. Read the source again. - FellowMellow (talk) 14:32, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See above message for reply. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 14:50, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, a description of PM Orbán is not an official ideology of the alliance. - FellowMellow (talk) 15:02, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I support including Right-wing populism, National conservatism (or alternatively, Nationalism and Conservatism separately), Anti-immigration, and Euroscepticism. It's 4 (or 5) easy-to-understand labels that just about cover what each of its members stands for. – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 15:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@GlowstoneUnknown: Wouldn't it make sense to not have "anti-immigration", as it is a component of "national conservatism"? ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 15:25, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, in retrospect, I'll suggest to only include it in the case that Nationalism and Conservatism are separate. – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 15:27, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think all the parties are "national conservatives", so I think it's fitting :) ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 15:30, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think national conservatism is better than nationalism. So I think that it works! - FellowMellow (talk) 15:33, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@GlowstoneUnknown @ValenciaThunderbolt if you really want to place right-wing populism in the infobox (even though I object because there is no proper source), however I would agree to its addition, if my proposed ideology of (anti-federalism; meaning anti-EU federalism) makes it into the infobox as well (as they are strongly against more federalism) and it makes sense. Otherwise, I remain opposed. I offer as a fair compromise. - FellowMellow (talk) 15:42, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am willing to agree to that if it helps consensus establishment. It also makes sense to show it as an opposing force to Volt Europa. – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 15:44, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly @GlowstoneUnknown, as an opposing force to Volt Europa. It make no sense why it’s illegitimate to place it there. I don’t know why @ValenciaThunderbolt and @Autospark are in opposition to this, when European federalism is used freely. - FellowMellow (talk) 18:54, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I don't care one iota if other articles have bad writing/bad academic practice in their construction. "Anti-federalism" is a policy position, and is absolutely not a political ideology.-- Autospark (talk) 17:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@GlowstoneUnknown I disagree with one thing. As I said before, right-wing populism has no source for it. A description of a Prime Minister is not an ideology of the alliance. I think the ideologies should be (national conservatism (as nationalism is rooted in that ideology, no need to have nationalism and national conservatism separately), a faction of Euroscepticism (as Fidesz-KDNP is soft exit), and anti-federalism. - FellowMellow (talk) 15:37, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't be against anti-federalism as an ideology either, I just think it's reasonable to include RWP as one of the ideologies considering every one of the parties (excl. KDNP) include it in their respective infoboxes. – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 15:41, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I oppose this because it didn’t have proper sourcing and @ValenciaThunderbolt relied on a description of Orbán as legitimate to include RWP in the infobox as an ideology of the alliance. That I couldn’t support. However, I think a fair compromise would be supporting RWP (in exchange) for supporting the inclusion of anti-federalism (as well). - FellowMellow (talk) 15:44, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Euroscepticism to put it simply is just not wanting more Europe and wanting less. Favoring exiting is called Hard-Euroscepticism. There doesn't seem to be a hard eurosceptic party in here, so Euroscepticism alone should cut it. Zlad! (talk) 17:14, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Zlad! I am proposing something completely different. I proposed placing it under (faction), meaning most are in favor like PVV, FPÖ, and CHEGA for example. Fidesz-KDNP are not hard Eurosceptic. That’s why it should be done that way (like what ID group has with Identitarianism). - FellowMellow (talk) 18:57, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think any of the listed parties are for leaving the EU. PVV was, but is not anymore. Correct me about others if I'm wrong.
That's why I'm against factions as all parties seem like they are Eurosceptic, not soft or hard, just Eurosceptic. Zlad! (talk) 18:59, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just placed euroscepticism. I didn’t add soft or hard. Just regular. PVV is, but they aren’t pursuing it because they want to continue in the coalition. CHEGA and FPÖ especially are. - FellowMellow (talk) 19:03, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would say that given that the desire to remain in the EU is widespread, the "soft-" description might be more accurate. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 21:08, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, soft Euroscepticism is a different thing. These parties are way more just pure Eurosceptics. Zlad! (talk) 21:25, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There should be no soft and hard addition. I’m saying add it as a faction, which makes sense. - FellowMellow (talk) 22:31, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
why does it make sense for it to be a faction? all parties are eurosceptic. some more than others, but all are. no party maybe outside of VVD falls in either soft or hard camps or non-eurosceptic camp. Zlad! (talk) 22:36, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that the ideologies should be Christian Democracy, Eurosceptism, Conservatism, Right-Wing Populism and Anti-Imigration 109.243.69.71 (talk) 13:05, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would support the addition of Christian democracy if you find a third party source @109.243.69.71 FellowMellow (talk) 13:13, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe ChrDem has a place here, there are only first-party sources for it, and only one of the parties seems in favour of it. – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 14:09, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree with this - Christian democracy generally has a connotation that is different from most of these parties, and the dearth of reliable sources calling them christian-democratic reflects this. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 18:25, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It seems like there's consensus for "Euroscepticism", "National conservatism", and "Right-wing populism" so I'll add those but keep the discussion open – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 14:49, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good choice. Zlad! (talk) 16:04, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Almost all sources I have read simply describe the alliance as "far-right" or "right-wing." Of course, those are not ideologies per se. I think part of the difficulty here is that this alliance is actually composed of parties that previously claimed to espouse conflicting ideologies (e.g., ANO was in ALDE, PVV used to be quite secularist, etc.). Due to this internal ideological diversity that has, so to speak, yet to settle, only "sovereigntism" (or "nationalism" if we find the former term problematic) and "anti-immigration" are, in my view, appropriate labels for this group at this point in time. If there is no consensus even on those terms, then perhaps the "ideology" label in the infobox should just be left blank for now. KFan3 (talk) 15:05, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@KFan3: I concur. However, I'd rather it be nationalism, as anti-immigration isn't an ideology. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 15:07, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Very fair @KFan3. Personally, nationalism makes sense, but I feel the group should also have an inclusion of "anti-federalism" in its infobox, as the alliance advocates for increased independent powers. I also agree with you on using "anti-immigration" as an appropriate label, as many articles use it still. I have yet to see it be taken down. So far that has not happened. - FellowMellow (talk) 15:13, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Probably best to use the same ideologies as the ID Group. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 15:20, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Euroscepticism (as a faction); as not all parties are fully eurosceptic and nationalism from ID group’s ideology should be used in the Patriots infobox, but the use of right-wing populism should not be used, until there is a proper third-party source (saying) and does not rely on a self-ref or a description of a political leader. I do believe that anti-federalism (meaning anti-EU federalism) should be used instead (meaning contrasting to what Volt Europa has), where one of their ideologies is European federalism (meaning more EU involvement), whereas Patriots are against this. - FellowMellow (talk) 15:27, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All parties are Eurosceptic. All parties are not fully aka Hard Eurosceptic, but all are at least Eurosceptic. Zlad! (talk) 22:49, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@FellowMellow, GlowstoneUnknown, Autospark, and Checco: Why don't we add the most common ideologies for the member parties pages, and leave it at that? No no to this, or yes to that, just have the parametre with the most common ideologies in the member parties ideology parametres in their infoboxes. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 15:46, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's largely where I got my initial suggestions from, by comparing the ideologies of all the member parties. I'd support this. – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 15:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh wait, I forgot about Sovereigntism, that seems like an important one to include as well, given I believe it's pretty heavily mentioned in their manifesto. – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 15:53, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sovereigntism I think it’s a very good ideology to also incorporate into the infobox. If we use that in the infobox, then we don’t need anti-federalism as it is rooted within the ideology. - FellowMellow (talk) 15:57, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Self-refs are frowned upon. It would be best to include an ideology section, with that in it. However, it shouldn't be included in the infobox, as that is for third party ref ideologies. If we were to allow for self-refs, most party pages here would be different. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 15:58, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If a third party were to say that it is, I have no problem with it. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 15:59, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ValenciaThunderbolt anti-federalism is not a self-ref. Sources have said that the parties consisting in this alliance want powers for their countries and less EU involved and it is deeply rooted in their manifestos. This is no where near a self-ref.
@GlowstoneUnknown I once again encourage using anti-federalism. - FellowMellow (talk) 19:00, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@FellowMellow: You're mistaken. I was referring to sovereigntism, as GlowstoneUnknown said it was heavily mentioned in their manifesto. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 19:07, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’m not. It’s not a self-ref and meaning sovereigntism. Frankly, I believe that sovereigntism should be used in the infobox because it makes sense since that is heavily rooted in its ideology. I oppose the inclusion of RWP, but as a fair compromise to have a fair agreement, I would like to see sovereigntism be added to the infobox (in exchange) for RWP’s inclusion. - FellowMellow (talk) 19:14, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@FellowMellow: So you're telling me what I mean? I think you'll find referencing a manifesto IS self-ref. If not, what to do you constitute self-ref being then? ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 19:18, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I personally used another example other than looking at the manifesto. What I was stating that I agree with @GlowstoneUnknown‘s point. However sources have repeatedly said that Orban’s alliance and the parties within it, are all opposed to big EU involvement. The contrast to this would be what Volt Europa advocates for (meaning federalism - more EU involvement).
A self-ref constitutes what the leaders say about their alliance. However manifesto is a bit different. When you actually look at the document it’s legitimate, but third-party source is even more legitimate. However, when you said that a description of Orbán equates to the official ideology of the alliance, it makes no sense. - FellowMellow (talk) 19:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I support the inclusion of all ideologies, except for right wing populism as there is no proper sourcing. A description of Prime Minister Orban is not valid. I do support comparison, but right wing populism doesn’t make too much sense. If you support the inclusion of anti-federalism into the infobox, then I would drop my opposition to RWP. I think that is a very fair compromise. - FellowMellow (talk) 15:52, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All of the (current) parties in this grouping are described as espousing right-wing populism; however, the issue is is that I have not seen sources that describe it as such. (Could someone provide a source that describes the EfP as such -- not a member party -- as right-wing populist?) However, regardless of whether there's consensus about right-wing populism, there seems to be a consensus about "nationalism" and "anti-EU federalism." KFan3 (talk) 16:00, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@KFan3 exactly right. There are no sources that I have seen and been shown. That’s why it shouldn’t be used, as of now. - FellowMellow (talk) 17:20, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And I reaffirm my support of for nationalism or national conservatism and anti-EU federalism. - FellowMellow (talk) 17:21, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose to "anti-federalism". That is not an ideology, it is a policy position, and does not belong in the Infobox's Ideology field.-- Autospark (talk) 17:10, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but the common ideologies that you are advocating for includes right wing populism, which I oppose. I am not against the other ideologies. However, I repeat that if you want to include right wing populism into the infobox, then I would also like to see anti-federalism also be included. - FellowMellow (talk) 17:17, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right-wing populism is in the member party infoboxes of 7/8 parties, NC/nationalism appears in 7/8, so we may aswell use these to in the infobox. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 17:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
“Anti-federalism” is a policy position, not a political ideology.— Autospark (talk) 17:34, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly! ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 17:38, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At this stage, it seems that we only have a consensus about including "nationalism" in the infobox, so I will go ahead and add that at this stage. (Again, if sources begin using other descriptors, this should be changed.) Regarding "anti-federalism" and "right-wing populism," I think it'd be helpful to distinguish the question of (1) why the former should be excluded (considering there are many European political parties on Wikipedia described as having a "Euroskeptic," "Pro-European," or "Federalist" ideology) and from (2) whether the latter is appropriate given that some parties involved (such as KDNP) are not populist (again, it'd be different if we had a source identifying the alliance as populist, but no one has produced one). I don't think we should engage in horse-trading here; we should just follow the descriptors news sources have been using. KFan3 (talk) 18:24, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@KFan3 is absolutely correct. Until descriptors produce a source, there should not be an inclusion of any other ideology, especially RWP, which @ValenciaThunderbolt promotes (based on a source, that describes Orban) backed by @Autospark. Volt Europa has European federalism as one of its ideologies. Anti-EU federalism is very legitimate. If you have issue with that word, then it should be sovereigntism instead. - FellowMellow (talk) 18:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No it’s not. European federalism is listed an ideology in place like Volt Europa. You are wrong along with @ValenciaThunderbolt. - FellowMellow (talk) 18:45, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@KFan3 @GlowstoneUnknown @Zlad! @ValenciaThunderbolt @Autospark
Here is a source of validness of using "Sovereigntism." [1] FellowMellow (talk) 22:49, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
cool add it. Zlad! (talk) 22:52, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can’t lol. There has to be consensus. Your support for it would definitely be a +, if you do. - FellowMellow (talk) 22:53, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's already consensus to add it on the proviso that it's not a 1st-party source I believe. – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 23:51, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We shouldn't list the component member parties' ideologies – the new group is a separate entity, and this article (and by extension its Infobox) is about that, not its member parties. After all, just because a zebra is black and white, doesn't make it grey...-- Autospark (talk) 17:09, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've added (and sourced) "nationalism" as one of PfE's ideologies in the infobox, since there's both consensus here and (more importantly) sources that are identifying them as such (like the one I've cited). I'd ask that we now do not revert this to just "under discussion." (Unless I'm missing something: are there sources that are disputing that they're nationalist?) We can then add other ideologies later once more sources begin discussing PfE's political orientation as a whole. KFan3 (talk) 22:46, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@KFan3 here is a source for sovereigntism. [2] FellowMellow (talk) 22:51, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also support adding sovereigntist to the info-box. we should also look for more sources that support the claim. Zyxrq (talk) 22:56, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you @Zyxrq! :) FellowMellow (talk) 22:59, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I personally think both National Conservatism / Nationalism / Right-Wing Populism are fine. I'm fine with either three plus Sovereigntism and Euroscepticism. Zlad! (talk) 22:53, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@FellowMellow and @Zlad!, the issue with "sovereigntism" (at this point in time) is that, in the cited article, that term is being used exclusively as a self-description (the term only appears in direct quotes from Orbán; the writer is not using it as his own description of the group). If news sources themselves start using the term "sovereigntism," that would be the time to go back and change that. The same goes for the other terms like "conservatism," "right-wing populism," etc. I haven't found any sources that describe the alliance in those terms. Have you?KFan3 (talk) 23:02, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Look, we haven't had much many descriptions of the alliance because there is little to describe.
However, I think the approach we should take is look at what are the ideologies of the parties that make up the grouping and find the overlapping ones. Out of National Conservatism / Nationalism / Right-Wing Populism whichever one is the most overlapping we should add and then Euroscepticism. It might be too early for Sovereigntism. Zlad! (talk) 23:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. Orbán’s alliance and the parties have made it clear they want as less federalism as possible. The parties have persistently rebelled against EU decision and oppose further involvement. It should be there and it is not early. Right-wing populism should not be included due to poor sourcing. - FellowMellow (talk) 01:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
| ideology = Sovereigntism[1][2][3]
Here's the source code that would be needed to add 3 non-self-describing reliable sources which call this group sovereigntist. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 23:12, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@KFan3 @ValenciaThunderbolt @GlowstoneUnknown here is proof. 3 sources provided by @JustAPoliticsNerd with Sovereigntism being described by a third-party. Here is another source saying it’s sovereigntism and not as self-ref [3]. Here is another source [4]. This one says "With the formation of Patriots for Europe, Orban is bidding to become the dominant hard-right force in the EU Parliament.
As well as campaigning for conservative family values, the group would push back against European support for Ukraine against Russia's invasion and immigration." - FellowMellow (talk) 01:28, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe Sovereigntism, National conservatism, and Right-wing populism ought to be added now that we have the necessary sources for the first one and the other two are present in 7/9 of the parties' individual infoboxes. – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 01:33, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree with the addition of those three. - FellowMellow (talk) 01:35, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All of these are sufficiently descriptive, nuanced, unbiased, and well-sourced. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 01:41, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My opinion is quite simple: only recognised ideologies should be mentioned in the infobox. In this respect, "nationalism", "national conservatism" and "right-wing populism" are all acceptable features of the ideology parameter. Of course, I would have only a couple of them. I understand that "Euroscepticism" is quite telling for the group, but still it is not an ideology, but a policy. What I strongly oppose is "sovereigntism", that is surely not an ideology and at best a neologism for "nationalism". Moreover, it could also be quite confusing as there would be another EP group named "The Sovereignists". --Checco (talk) 19:01, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Whether you believe Euroscepticism is an ideology or not, it is a norm for wikipedia articles to feature it. Therefore, I think if ECR is soft-Eurosceptic and ID is Eurosceptic, this party should have it written in the infobox as well not to confuse the readers. Zlad! (talk) 19:52, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Malingre, Virginie (5 July 2024). "Dutch, In the European Parliament, a possible joint group with Marine Le Pen and Viktor Orban". Le Monde. Retrieved 6 July 2024.
  2. ^ "Hungarian, Fidesz Joins New Sovereigntist EP Group, Who else Will Follow". Hungary Today. 7 July 2024. Retrieved 6 July 2024.
  3. ^ Abascal, Santiago (5 July 2024). "The abandonment of the ECR by Vox, its entry into the group of 'Patriots for Europe' and its reasons". Counting Stars. Retrieved 6 July 2024.

Membership Map

This page should have a Map with its members. Can somebody make a map like that.Muaza Husni (talk) 14:25, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I added a map, at this point as a photo (generated with Datawrapper). Didn't have time to figure out if I could also embedd the iframe to make further updates easier. Attilaalbert (talk) 16:46, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Party color

Hi I was trying to add this color #4B0082 to the code of the page. It can be seen on the other translated pages, but I'm having trouble with adding the code. Zyxrq (talk) 23:43, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I added it to the MEP(s) Composition bar if that's what you were trying to do? – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 23:55, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes thank you. Zyxrq (talk) 00:25, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@GlowstoneUnknown specifically I was trying to add the same color as the German article. this color code I used is a bit off. Zyxrq (talk) 00:29, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@GlowstoneUnknown I think this is the correct color code #301c5c Zyxrq (talk) 00:35, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should ANO's "Former Political Group" Be Non-Inscrit or Renew?

Not a huge deal here, but it seems like there is a little disagreement over this. While yes, ANO had certainly been non-inscrit for about a week before joining Patriots for Europe, given the tight time frame, it seems reasonable to say that their time as non-inscrits was a rather negligable affair, in between them being in Renew and them being in PfE, and RS seem to frequently refer to them as former Renew members.

So should they be marked as former non-inscrits or former Renew? JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 03:49, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd personally preference Renew/ALDE, but I'm not fussed – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 04:47, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly it won’t make sense putting Renew because ANO left Renew for a completely different reason. Regardless if Patriots were founded or not, ANO said it would leave either way. For Vox or FPÖ it is different. They left specifically to join the alliance. I think we should have it as Non-Inscrits. - FellowMellow (talk) 13:10, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Babiš withdrew from Renew/ALDE to formally merge with Orbán into a single European group, before that, Babiš already had an informal alliance with Orbán. In April this year, this was foreseen by Michal Šimečka, leader of the Slovak opposition and also a member of Renew/ALDE.[1]
See references here: [2][3]. MZH2020 (talk) 14:57, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is inaccurate. One way or another, Babiš indicated that he would not be in ALDE or Renew. ANO said its departure from ALDE and Renew in the European Parliament, as its chairman Andrej Babiš, the former Czech prime minister, "declared his party would not be able to fulfil its program in its current European political family."
Another important point is another source close to ANO said it has yet to be decided in which political group ANO MEPs will land. Babiš said the ECR “is certainly not a solution for us. Representatives of other Czech political parties have a big say in the groups and the ECR is certainly not our choice.
(We will see, "maybe" a "new group will be created"".)
This is very legitimate to say that the reasoning for leaving ALDE and Renew was not because of Patriots. They joined when it was realistic, meaning when they negotiated. The source from Euractiv clearly states that they were deliberating still and hoped Patriots would be formed, while also seeing what other groups had to offer. This is different from FPÖ or PVV. They are still within ID and didn’t leave, but they say they are now leaving because of Patriots, a bit different from ANO. Vox is an even better example. They didn’t leave ECR until Patriots. They didn’t join NI. They had no intention of leaving ECR, until an invitation from Patriots.
I acknowledged Renew and ALDE in a note, which makes sense in the article.
[5] [6] - FellowMellow (talk) 15:29, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[2]: " 'We will see, perhaps a new group will be formed,' the leader of the ANO movement said on Friday. According to Aktuálně.cz, Babiš was supposed to speak about the new group with Orbán and Fico's liaisons at the inauguration of new Slovak President Peter Pellegrini in Bratislava at the end of last week (15 June 2024)." MZH2020 (talk) 16:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
its only for a few days the parliament did not even had their first meeting yet, i don't see why it should be inaccurate Braganza (talk) 17:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Formally speaking, the MEPs of ANO still sit in the Renew group and they will probably do so until the new parliament is constituted on 16 July 2024 and the new political groups are formed, please see the official website of the European Parliament. --Nablicus (talk) 15:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From the 2019-2024 period, yes. However, they have revoked their membership of Renew and ALDE on 21 June 2024. They aren’t sitting, as the previous parliament has been dissolved before the election and now parties are choosing their groups. It doesn’t make sense to place non-members as current members. - FellowMellow (talk) 15:43, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The columns are called Former European party and Former political group (even linking to the 2019-2024 period), i don't see a reason why we should not list ALDE Braganza (talk) 17:16, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well I’ll explain you the reason. First of all, I’m not completely omitting out ALDE and Renew. That is the reason why the note is there. Second, as I’ve already provided two sources, no matter if Patriots was formed or not, ANO said they won’t be in Renew (regardless). They left before the formation. It absolutely makes no sense to why it should be ALDE and Renew, when they departed before. The situation with Vox is different. That is why it remains like that. - FellowMellow (talk) 20:07, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Formally speaking, the European Parliament has not been dissolved. The period 2019-2024 ends at the moment when the new period 2024-2029 starts (article 5 of the European Parliament electoral act). So as long as the MEPs of ANO have not requested to the parliament to sit among the non-inscrits, they remain in the Renew group until the new parliament is constituted. --Nablicus (talk) 19:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If ANO left Renew and ALDE for the purpose of joining the Patriots, that would make sense. However, they left for a different reason. - FellowMellow (talk) 20:09, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously, does intention even matter? Also can we say it with certainty, nobody can tell how long it was planned Braganza (talk) 20:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
also @FellowMellow: doesn't the same apply to KDNP? Braganza (talk) 20:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Braganza Yes, very good point actually and one I did not think of that and this is because of the acceptance of TISZA into EPP, not because there was a new group. - FellowMellow (talk) 20:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why wouldn’t it matter? They left Renew not simply because of Patriots. Vox did it that way, so what they have now makes sense. I think there needs to be at least some recognition because it doesn’t make sense how Vox and ANO are labeled in the same way with different groups. - FellowMellow (talk) 20:21, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They left Renew not simply because of Patriots.
how can you tell that with certainty? There is only a 9 days difference, they were a founding member after all so there is a very high chance that they planned it before they left
doesn’t make sense how Vox and ANO are labeled in the same way with different groups
Seriously in what way, "Former political group" even links to the Ninth European Parliament (!), so before ANO left Braganza (talk) 20:24, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I told you with certainty based on what the sources says, and this is a third party source. Also you can keep quoting me. That’s fine. Vox and ANO are completely different situation.
Anyway, instead of my initial edit, I did something now on the article a bit differently, which makes more sense. - FellowMellow (talk) 21:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
agree with the current situation Braganza (talk) 08:57, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The claim that the MEPs of ANO and KDNP have belonged to or are belonging to the non-inscrits need a reliable source. Just because political leaders publicly say they will leave a group, does not mean that the MEPs automatically become non-inscrits. They need to go through a formal procedure in accordance with the proceedings of the parliament. According to the official website of the European Parliament, the MEPs are currently not non-inscrits, but still members of the Renew group and the EPP group, respectively. --Nablicus (talk) 09:11, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Šimečka, Michal (2024-04-10). "Šimečka: Babiš might prefer an alliance with the far right". Retrieved July 7, 2024. I wonder whether Andrej Babiš is not closer to the far right. For example, the possibility of an alliance with (Viktor) Orbán in some (new) group would be offered.
  2. ^ a b Šafaříková, Kateřina (2024-06-21). "Will Babiš merge with Orbán, Wilders and Le Pen? ANO may sit in a new group". Aktuálně.cz. Economia. Retrieved July 7, 2024. "We will see, perhaps a new group will be formed," the leader of the ANO movement said on Friday. According to Aktuálně.cz, Babiš was supposed to speak about the new group with Orbán and Fico's liaisons at the inauguration of new Slovak President Peter Pellegrini in Bratislava at the end of last week. The latest push to quit the Renew and participate in the new group was supposed to be the fact that earlier this week the ECR's key woman, Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni, again refused to allow Fidesz MEPs to join her group.
  3. ^ Babiš, Andrej (2024-06-18). "Babis: Telička is the mistake of my life, just the fact that I met him at all. He got us into the Group in the EP by mistake". Retrieved July 7, 2024. We do not belong to the ALDE party with our programme, but we are negotiating for strong positions there because we have the most MEPs from the former ALDE, we have seven. And within the Renew group we are second only to Macron, who has I think 12 seats or something. So we'll see, but we have to stick strictly to the programme, and if a new group is formed, we'll see how it all turns out.

"Right-wing" or "Right-wing to far-right" or "Far-right?"

There seems to be some edit warring between a faction that would rather the position be stated as far-right, and another that would have it be stated as "right-wing." I, personally, am quite partial towards the "right-wing to far-right" description, as there are reliable sources for both, and it is a bit of an eclectic coalition ranging from more Liberal types in ANO to more radical, AfD-associated types in the FPO, with plenty of parties standing somewhere in-between.

Regardless, there should be consensus; which of these options is correct? JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 13:49, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Far-right ONLY. Every single party in the group is unapologetically far-right. Let's not pretend otherwise. The vast majority of sources call them far-right—only a handful timidly label them as right-wing. And let's be clear: this group was concocted by an extreme-right political entity that's turned Hungary into an authoritarian playground. Democracy? Not a chance. Cheers. Michalis1994 (talk) 14:38, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe right-wing to far-right I have seen sources indicating both. - FellowMellow (talk) 14:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ANO: Listed as right-wing
Přísaha: Listed as centrist to center-right
Lega: Listed as right-wing to far-right
Latvia-first: Listed as right-wing
You are attempting to throw out a lot of consensus based on a wide variety of reliable sources. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 14:43, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Remarkable. Michalis1994 (talk) 14:57, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with @JustAPoliticsNerd actually. I think having it just far-right is not correct, as not all parties are that at + third parties call it right-wing, as well.
@KFan3 @GlowstoneUnknown please weigh in. - FellowMellow (talk) 15:04, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I could go either way, I'd personally lean towards
Far-right
with Right-wing factions
In line with EPP and ECR – GlowstoneUnknown (Talk) 15:08, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right-wing to far-right seems to be the most reasonable description, as both labels have been regularly used to refer to the group. As well, some parties within are usually considered far-right (such as RN), and others are usually considered right-wing (such as ANO). - MabelSyrup — Preceding undated comment added 15:01, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Arrentia (talk) 16:59, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are clearly biased. Just because you don't like them and they win doesn't mean you can compare them to Hitler. You have to be objective. They are right wing to far right at best. 31.4.141.44 (talk) 15:03, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ANO is not "far-right". It is a personal project of its chairman, that purposefully declares socially liberal, populist, socialist, right-wing, centrist and moderately sovereignist views as it suits Babiš and how it secures votes in elections. The party actually has no real ideology, only the interests of its chairman. --46.253.107.140 (talk) 15:05, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It can be said in nice words, as in the article ANO 2011, that it is technocratic, syncretic and a big tent or catchy party. --46.253.107.140 (talk) 15:08, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So it seems to be a 5-1 decision, other users please weigh in. - FellowMellow (talk) 15:06, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From looking at recent news sources,
  • A lot of outlets label the group far-right: Financial Times, Politico.eu, Euronews, Euractiv, Deutsche Welle
  • Some are less direct, saying that (some of) the constituent parties are far-right; Reuters describes most of the member parties as far-right (as well as the ECR group). Some are mixed or don't explicitly label the group at all: Al Jazeera (which says some parties are far right, that ANO is centrist, and puts no label to the group itself), BBC (which gives it no label in its brief mention in this article)
  • The only sources I've seen so far that describe the group as right-wing are The Guardian and The Brussels Times
I would note that almost all the news sources that have a specific Europe focus use the far-right label. Even from a wide range of sources there doesn't seem to be a huge amount of support for labelling them right-wing, and since this article is about the group itself, I don't think relying on descriptors of individual parties is hugely helpful (I'd also note to the IPs weighing in that consensus is not vote-based). Personally I would choose to just use the far-right label, given the number and weight of news sources that are also using it - there seems to be a fairly hefty consensus among news sources that the group is far-right. Having said that, I could also live with it being "right-wing to far-right" with a view to reopening discussion in the future if/when there is a more rounded view of the situation. Thanks, Gazamp (talk) 15:20, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Deutsche Welle has called the group right-wing, along with Politico and Euractive. Yet you are absolutely right to say that they label it as far right, simultaneously. Both labels are reasonable, both labels are in frequent use, and both should probably be included. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 15:34, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah yes, must have missed these! Definitely support using both labels then. Gazamp (talk) 16:09, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right wing should be ruled out immediately. Only real options are those including far right.
I think right-wing to far-right should be the choice. Dodolazza (talk) 15:52, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Far right only, it's the replacement for Identity and Democracy which was also considered far-right. Allan Nonymous (talk) 17:09, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Motorists

@MZH2020: they don't have a MEP thus they aren't member of it Braganza (talk) 16:22, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to the media [1][2] and per 'Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth,' the claim that Motorists have one MEP within Patriots for Europe is correct. But I changed it to the electoral alliance "Oath and Motorists," that's what the English-language media is saying.[3][4] MZH2020 (talk) 16:41, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
which of the two is the member in question? Braganza (talk) 16:44, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ "Motoristé míří do frakce Patriotů". Retrieved 2024-07-08.
  2. ^ "V Bruselu vznikla frakce Patrioti pro Evropu. Povede je Bardella, přidá se i motorista Turek". Retrieved 2024-07-08.
  3. ^ "Patriots for Europe becomes EU parliament's 3rd-largest group, picks Jordan Bardella as president". Retrieved 2024-07-08.
  4. ^ "Far-right Patriots group springs to third force in European Parliament". Retrieved 2024-07-08."My Favorite Things, Part II". Retrieved 2024-07-08.
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