Talk:Polyvagal theory

2008 comment

Interesting, no mention as yet of the originator of the theory, Stephen W. Porges, or links to the source papers. I'm adding this. gaia9 (talk) 20:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, in the current description, there is no mention of porges's revolutionary assertion of the 3rd branch of the Autonomic Nervous System, the Social Engagement System. There is no clear explanation why it is labeled "Polyvagal", and there is no link to the Autonomic Nervous System page (and vice-a-versa]. I am thankful to see it even have an entry in WP. Gheemaker (talk) 04:33, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

• I'm going to split the Reference section so that it has an External Link section + adding an interview of Stephen Porges Ph.D. + attempting to add etymology. This needs some work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gheemaker (talk • contribs) 05:15, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Proposal for rewrite

Proposing rewrite for Functional organization of the ANS according to Polyvagal Theory. I feel that the current article is vague about how the classical and Polyvagal model of the NS looks like. I feel we should mention the proposal of a 3rd ANS division/branch called the Social Nervous System or Social Engagement system based on the following references:

• Porges, S. W. (1993, October/November). The infant’s sixth sense: Awareness and regulation of bodily processes. Zero to Three 14(2),12–16.
• Porges, S. W. (1995). Orienting in a defensive world: Mammalian modifications of our evolutionary heritage. A Polyvagal Theory. Psychophysiology, 32, 301–318.
• Porges, S. W. (1997). Emotion: An evolutionary by-product of the neural regulation of the autonomic nervous system. In C. S. Carter, B. Kirk-patrick, & I. I. Lederhendler (Eds.), The integrative neurobiology of affiliation.Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, 807, 62–77.
• Porges, S. W. (1998). Love: An emergent property of the mammalian autonomic nervous system. Psychoneuroendocrinology, 23, 837–861.
• Especially Porges, S. W. (2001). The Polyvagal Theory: Phylogenetic substrates of a social nervous system. International Journal of Psychophysiology, 42, 123–146.

That we make a comparison between both models depicting the differences.
For example, here is a way I propose to augment the 2nd paragraph: Functional organization of the autonomic nervous system is thought to be phylogenetically hierarchical, with response strategies to threat dictated by the newest neural structures first (aka Social Engagement System), then falling back on older structures (Sympathetic and Parasympathetic accordingly) when a given response strategy fails. Therefore, polyvagal theory predicts that the NA branch will inhibit acceleratory sympathetic nervous system (SNS) input to the heart when attention and social engagement are adaptive, and withdraw this inhibitory influence when fighting or fleeing are adaptive.[1]
Then at some point throw in mention of Parasympathetic toward the end. Any comments? Gheemaker (talk) 07:09, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

- Just wanted to give positive feedback on a very well written criticism section, congratulations! The PV-theory has during recent years been very popular as a psychoeducation tool in clinical psychotherapy settings (especially when there's a focus on traumatization). And though I think many explanations can be used in therapy as helpful metaphors, there is an abundance of scientifically more sound psychophysiological models of the emergence and existence of trauma symptoms that can serve the same purpose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.248.80.139 (talk) 22:38, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

criticism?!

I am Paul Grossman and would like to know who has been writing the very accurate and well put together criticism section of this Wikipedia contribution (I have had nothing to do with the writing). Please contact me per ResearchGate or per email pgrossman0icloud.com

even stephen porges himself when presenting his theory on youtube mentions that it is rather "controversial" and that some people consider it "bad science". in the wiki-article about the "Freezing behavior" it is not even mentioned... so please explain the arguments of the critics! .

to my mind the linkage of the ventral vagus system (how is its existence and action shown?) to later stages of the development of living beings seems not plausible, 2003:C8:CF03:2300:384E:D128:87A8:F3BA (talk) 05:09, 28 September 2021 (UTC)because even the most primitive cartilaginous fish or a (more sophisticated) reptile needs a mechanism to get ready for recreational activities (in situations without danger, like feeding, resting, mating...). so there must already be this basic function of the vagus system, not just the "dorsal freezing" stuff...

further it would seem to me much more logical that an extreme sympathetic reaction causes freeze than a vagal reaction. after all it does not seem to be a complete relaxation, but rather a total cramp, which seems to be sympathicotone in nature...

so the article should explain how the existence and the actions of the two supposed vagal systems are demonstrated?! thanx! --HilmarHansWerner (talk) 11:54, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Porges has explained the Polyvagal Nerve Function Better Than Any Other

The vagus nerve with all it's complexities needs a clear explanation and Stephen Porges has provided it. The only reason why this theory could possibly be considered "controversial" is that the explanation of why trauma affects people the way it does conflicts with the still unproved-after-a-century hypothesis that all mental illness has genetic causes. Animals, especially mammals, have been found to have altered stress responses as a result of trauma. As an example, if I remember correctly, it was Pavlov's dogs, locked in their cages and unable to swim to escape the flooding of a close-by river who survived but demonstrated ongoing evidence of trauma. The evidence is there--look it up. Note: I helped edit G. Bateson's Double Bind Theory over 15 years ago signed Margaret9Mary 205.167.120.201 (talk) 20:35, 17 April 2019 (UTC)Margaret9Mary but can't remember my password. Or I could sign myself, survivortiredofscientistsindenial.

It seems to me, from a very cursory understanding, that the problem with Porges ideas is that he's making very specific cladistic statements that say that mammals are very distinct and more advanced/nuanced in our vagus expression than "reptiles" (note that reptile isn't even a clade!). This seems very implausible, and adding extra unfounded cruft on top of his theories sounds like pseudo-science where one tries to make your own theory sound more legitimate by associating it (falsely or speculatively) with an established field. Dropping this cladistic hypothesis seems like it would make Porges more credible... --Boxed (talk) 20:02, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Brain-Body Center

A search of the internet and of Google Books indicates that the Brain-Body Center at UIC barely exists and has no notability. At a glance, it appears that only Porges and his wife were involved in it. There is no reason any Wikipedia page should mention it. Daask (talk) 20:21, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Simply observing

Flagged as dubious:

While other brain areas known to be involved in fear responses (e. g. the amygdala and periaqueductal gray) are mentioned by Porges, he does not integrate them into the description of his own hypothesized systems. Simply observing an anatomical link between two areas of the body is not sufficient for explaining complex social and emotional behaviours as Porges broadly attempts to do.

My own take is that if Porges has successfully identified the principal pathway mediating between the underlying neurology and the observed physiology and sociology, he has done enough to quality as a legitimate first cut. Neurology is so messy in general that it's hard to exceed this standard.

Recently it as discovered that women with severe spinal injuries can achieve orgasm by stimulating the vagus nerve alone, despite it not being obvious to the women themselves that this pathway continues to function in this capacity (they had to be instructed in order to discover this).

It's such a common crock in academia to effectively take the position that your enemy's success doesn't count for much because it didn't arrive whole cloth, trailing clouds of meticulous and irrefutable glory. Hardly anything in such a difficult field unfolds in first instance to this ludicrous standard.

I'm new to this topic, but the main claim of this theoretical insight seems to be that the vagus nerve is the principal locus of a functional dichotomy with gross manifestations in the clinical setting. The criticisms would then be that:

• it's not the principal locus in any meaningful sense (too much else is always involved)
• there is no such functional neurological dichotomy
• there is something superficially akin to a neurological dichotomy, but it's actually an oligochotomy
• the clinical manifestations—if any—are too woolly to be of any real use, observationally
• there is no such downstream psychological dichotomy
• there is something superficially akin to a psychological dichotomy, but it's actually an oligochotomy
• suggested causal correlation between the neurological dichotomy and the psychological dichotomy are vastly overstated

Etc.

The legitimate standard of a contribution here is not that all of these claims are true, but that any principal claim is true. If all that finally remains is that there as a functional dichotomy of this general tenor (even though the mechanisms are not as postulate) or that there is a psychological dichotomy of this general tenor (even through the mooted neurophysical causality is all wet) then this bundle of conjecture contains a substantive contribution.

The other valid critique would be that Porges has merely flung a mud-ball of hunches at the wall, hoping to take credit for whatever sticks, while leaving others to do the hard work of making specific claims that finally prove out. Then the complaint would be that this conjectural bundle doesn't rise to the standard of a research program worthy of investigatory primacy over any other hunch-set within the discipline.

I'm suggesting by way of these remarks that the criticism section needs to be written more broadly, with fewer of these overused and abused academic rabbit punches as quoted above. — MaxEnt 16:08, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

brief, lay-friendly short definition of Polyvagal Theory needed on Wikipedia page

PVT is being discussed internationally at many levels, in many disciplines, and an understandable definition on Wikipedia is needed for lay persons. The current short 'definition' actually offers no definition at all but rather gives an opinionated negative view which is anything but objective, saying it's a 'collection of claims' that are 'not endorsed', and uses the message template above the definition to place it in the category of 'fringe theories'. In reality, PVT is cited in over 8,800 scientific papers (on Google Scholar) and is integrated into the work of the leading experts in the field of psychotherapy (Bessel van der Kolk, Peter Levine, Dan Siegel, etc.). A simplified and updated introductory definition is long overdue.

I'd like to suggest the following:

"Polyvagal Theory, first presented by Dr. Stephen Porges in 1994, proposes a hierarchy of the autonomic nervous system based on evolutionary development. The theory is multi-disciplinary, connecting aspects of neuroscience, psychology and phylogenetics. In lay terms, Polyvagal Theory describes how the brain’s unconscious sense of safety/danger impacts our emotions and behaviors. It describes three behavioral responses - 1) relaxation/social engagement, 2) fight/flight, 3) shut down/immobilization - which can be unconsciously activated as we detect safety/threat in our immediate environment. The theory argues that the state of one's nervous system should be a primary consideration in mental health and medical treatment. Polyvagal Theory is cited in over 8,000 peer-reviewed scientific papers and is integrated into numerous treatments in the field of trauma; however, it is not widely known in the broader community of traditional allopathic medicine."

I also suggest removing the current template message re “fringe theories" that sits above the introduction. How can we call a theory which is cited in 8,800 scholarly papers 'fringe'?Ian Oelsner (talk) 18:50, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Ian Oelsner (talk) 19:43, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Ian Oelsner, Explaining the premise more clearly would be good (provided any changes are based on reliable, independent sources which are currently missing from your proposal), but we must be careful not to create the impression that this is a widely accepted theory, because it clearly is not. MrOllie (talk) 01:29, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

The Polyvagal Theory is cited in more than 10000 scholarly papers so how is it a 'fringe' theory? some of the scholars [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11] -samsepi00l (talk) 15:49, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

A collection of links that don't meet our WP:MEDRS doesn't prove much, especially when one of the researchgate links you posted actually contradicts the theory. MrOllie (talk) 13:49, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Didn't notice before I typed this that the person I was replying to had already been blocked as a sockpuppet. Ah, well. MrOllie (talk) 13:50, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

PVT may have shortcomings, but at the very least it starts a dialogue and some organization of a complex topic. I don't think it is a fringe theory, as indicated by it's broad support in the Interpersonal Neurobiology and attachment communities. It provides a sufficient framework for many people to improve their ability to help people in need. A section on how it can be helpful would be useful, together with a list of books describing PVT's clinical applications. A section titled "Comparison to other theories" with a description of the Neurovisceral Integration Model would be useful.ConflictScience (talk) 18:22, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Polyvagal theory proven

The polyvagal theory is not a collection theory and it is not an unproven theory and introduction of the theory is completely misleading, it is a proven theory and has over 11,000 citations on Google Scholar.[12] All of these citations, with only a few exceptions, are positive citations that do not dispute the validity of the theory. Polyvagal Theory is widely accepted so saying its collection of unproven theories makes no sense. Theboring Ape (talk) 12:33, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

It is a fringe theory that is not widely accepted medical science, and this article cannot pretend that it is more mainstream than it is. Number of mentions means precisely nothing - many of those mentions are disputing the theory. Acupuncture gets more than 600,000 hits in Google scholar, and medical consensus there is that it doesn't work. MrOllie (talk) 13:45, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Criticism of the criticism

The article begins with the unproven phrase: "Polyvagal theory ... is a collection of unproven evolutionary, neuroscientific and psychological constructs"....

It is further claimed: "there's literally a whole sourced section in this article dedicated to the "inconsistencies and lack of evidence". If you then read the whole sourced section, you will find the source (10) as evidence for the claim: "From a methodological perspective, many claims do not meet the criteria of a scientific theory because they are formulated in a manner too vague for empirical testing. For example, the precise functioning of the two proposed distinct "vagal systems" or of the "social engagement system" is not explained,[10]

However, source 10 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3108032/ says " In this way, the theory provides a plausible explanation for the reported covariation between atypical autonomic regulation (eg, reduced vagal and increased sympathetic influences on the heart) and psychiatric and behavioral disorders that involve difficulties in regulating appropriate social, emotional, and communication behaviors." and further something completely different: SUMMARY The polyvagal theory proposes that the evolution of the mammalian autonomic nervous system provides the neurophysiological substrates for adaptive behavioral strategies. It further proposes that physiological state limits the range of behavior and psychological experience. The theory links the evolution of the autonomic nervous system to affective experience, emotional expression, facial gestures, vocal communication, and contingent social behavior. In this way, the theory provides a plausible explanation for the reported covariation between atypical autonomic regulation (eg, reduced vagal and increased sympathetic influences on the heart) and psychiatric and behavioral disorders that involve difficulties in regulating appropriate social, emotional, and communication behaviors.

The polyvagal theory provides several insights into the adaptive nature of the physiological state. First, the theory emphasizes that physiological states support different classes of behavior. For example, a physiological state characterized by a vagal withdrawal would support the mobilization behaviors of fight and flight. In contrast, a physiological state characterized by increased vagal influence on the heart (via myelinated vagal pathways originating in the nucleus ambiguus) would support spontaneous social engagement behaviors. Second, the theory emphasizes the formation of an integrated social engagement system through functional and structural links between neural control of the striated muscles of the face and the smooth muscles of the viscera. Third, the polyvagal theory proposes a mechanism—neuroception—to trigger or to inhibit defense strategies. Schutz67 (talk) 15:51, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Porges himself has responded to these critique, perhaps this also needs to be referenced? https://www.polyvagalinstitute.org/background 163.116.203.18 (talk) 06:02, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Polyvagal Theory

Should the language in the first two sentences of the Lead section of Polyvagal Theory stating that it is “unproven” and “not endorsed by current Social Neuroscience” be kept? Ian Oelsner (talk) 16:42, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Note: The first two sentences of the lead say:

Polyvagal theory (poly- "many" + vagal "wandering") is a collection of unproven, evolutionary, neuroscientific, and psychological constructs pertaining to the role of the vagus nerve in emotion regulation, social connection and fear response, introduced in 1994 by Stephen Porges.

It is popular among some clinical practitioners and patients, but is not endorsed by current social neuroscience.

Delete: By way of background, I am a research staff member affiliated with the Polyvagal Institute [13], which facilitates research and training based on Polyvagal Theory (PVT). The word “unproven” in sentence one is redundant with “theory” while also being misleading in a deprecating way. “Theories” by definition are “unproven.” (See Webster’s at [14]) One academic, extensively quoted in the (very poorly done) Criticism section, strongly disputes the theory, but he seems to be in the minority based on citation metrics. According to Web of Science (one of the two acceptable science academia citation metrics databases, according to WP: Academic), (PVT) has been referenced in 448 published peer-reviewed articles and cited 9553 times, accelerating every year. [15]. One seminal 2007 article, (Stephen W. Porges, “The polyvagal perspective,” Biological Psychology, Volume 74, Issue 2, 2007, pages 116-143) [16] has been cited 1808 times in other peer-reviewed articles, as of 8/17/2022 (just this week, there were 10 citations). [17]

Even two of the book editors cited in the citation overkill meant to bolster the second sentence’s statement that PVT is “not endorsed” by social neuroscience are actually proponents of at least some aspects of PVT. In 2015, Jean Decety, the editor of cited The Oxford Handbook of Social Neuroscience (2011), cited in the second sentence as opposing PVT, co-authored a paper with Eric Porges (an advocate of PVT) and that paper concludes that its core findings about vagal regulation are consistent with a prediction of PVT. (Porges, Eric C., Karen E. Smith, Jean Decety, “Individual Differences in vagal regulation are related to testosterone responses observed in violence.” Frontiers in Psychology, 24 (February), 2015, 7). [18]. And in 2008, John Cacioppo, the editor of the Introduction to Social Neuroscience from Princeton University Press, also cited in the second sentence as opposing PVT, presents as factual a key tenet of PVT, citing a Stephen Porges’ paper. (Gary G. Berntson, Greg J. Norman, Louise C. Hawkley, and John T. Cacioppo “Cardiac autonomic balance versus cardiac regulatory capacity,” Psychophysiology, 45 (2008), 643–652) [19] In any case, “social neuroscience” is a field of research. It does not give out endorsements. The citation overkill of the second sentence - six textbooks or compendiums of “social neuroscience” - do not have page numbers in the citations. So far as I can tell from Google Books, they do not even discuss PVT. There’s no WP:RS that actually says PVT is “not endorsed” by social science or suggests that it is in any way outside the mainstream. Ian Oelsner (talk) 16:42, 22 August 2022 (UTC)