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Why create a page about a Kongo divinity (The name of this article is Simbi) and put up a statue of an Igbo divinity?

Hello,

Why create a page about a Kongo deity and put up a statue of an Igbo deity? Kongo culture is not Igbo culture, nor Yoruba culture, nor Mbundu culture, nor Téké culture, etc.

Here's what User: MiddleOfAfrica says to justify the photo of the Igbo statue (https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mami_Wata_Figure_MIA.jpg#mw-jump-to-license , https://collections.artsmia.org/art/111879/mami-wata-figure-igbo) he/she put up: "It's also a Bantu word" Can he/she tell us which other people from the Bantu language group call Mami wata (mermaid) "Simbi"? Here's what else he/she (User: MiddleOfAfrica) says: "Mami Wata is not solely an Igbo deity" Each people has its own name (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mami_Wata The Igbo name for Mami wata (mermaid) can be found in the article Mami Wata), At no point am I going to go to an Igbo divinity article and put a photo of a Yoruba divinity on the pretext that the same divinity is found among the Igbo. The photo of the statue is already present on the Mami Wata article and has no place on the Simbi article.

And to finish, he/she (User: MiddleOfAfrica) says: "This page is not about Kongo culture! It's about Simbi, which are a part of more cultures than just the Kongo. Mami Wata IS also a Kongo spirit." What a contradiction! Simbi is part of Kongo culture! This article bears the Kongo name "Simbi"! Kongos don't call sirens "Mami Wata". Respect people's culture! Kongo culture is not Yoruba culture, nor Igbo culture, nor Ewe culture, nor Mbundu culture, nor Luba culture, nor Swahili culture, nor Téké culture, nor Punu culture, and so on. JustSomeone08 (talk) 06:55, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, let's break this all the way down. A simbi is not a deity. A simbi is a nature spirit. In Bantu tradition, bisimbi exist across hundreds of cultures, not just the Bakongo people. While they began as a part of Bantu spirituality in Central and Southern African, Bisimbi are revered by people of African descent throughout the diaspora as well. Thus, this page is about global simbi lore, which includes Mami Wata, who is also celebrated in Central Africa, including in the Democratic Republic of Congo. So no, it's not a contradiction to acknowledge both of those truths from a historical standpoint. You seem to be under the impression that the art has to be created by a Kongo person, but it doesn't because this page isn't about the Bakongo people; it's specifically about Bisimbi, which Mami Wata is. Regardless of the heritage of the African person who created the art, it is a representation of a Simbi, and that's what's relevant.
Source: https://fowler.ucla.edu/exhibitions/mami-wata-arts-for-water-spirits-in-africa-and-its-diasporas/
"A video of this event as well as sculptures and masks from the Ibibio and Igbo peoples of southeastern Nigeria illustrate Mami Wata’s role in their cultures, while numerous popular paintings from Democratic Republic of the Congo suggest how Mami Wata plays an important role in central African urban culture and spiritual practices." MiddleOfAfrica (talk) 13:34, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Bantu tradition DOES in fact exist." What is the name of this tradition? So according to your logic, European tradition also exists?
"Bantu-speaking people in Central, East, and Southern Africa share a lot of cultural similarities that are specific to them. We see this beyond language to spiritual beliefs, such as the existence of Nzambi across countless cultures (See Nyambe)" Since when does having similarities mean having the same culture?Since when is Luba culture Kongo culture? Since when is Téké culture Kongo culture? Since when is Ngombe culture Kongo culture?? Etc.
"Apart from the Bakongo people, Simbi is used by pretty much every ethnic group in the DRC from Ngombe to the Cilubá, some in the RoC, and even some in north-west Angola, such as the Ambundu and Ovimbundu." What are the names of the authors who confirm that the Ngombe, Luba and Ovimbundu call their spirit nature "Simbi"?
Since when have the Luba, Ngombe, Ovimbundu, Ambundu, Punu, Lumbu, Téké, Mbochi (...) whorshipped their spirit nature by calling it "Simbi"?
«The statue in the photo is of Mami Wata and Mami Wata is venerated as a Simbi water spirit, so as long as the art is a representation of a Simbi and is respectful of the peoples who venerate Bisimbi» The Igbo don't call their water spirit "Simbi". The Igbo artist who made this statue didn't call the Igbo water spirit "Simbi". Igbo don't venerated their water spirit by calling it Simbi. JustSomeone08 (talk) 17:23, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're correct that Luba culture is not Kongo culture. They STILL refer to water spirits as bisimbi in their culture today. Bisimbi exist in other cultures, who also refer to them as "bisimbi." That's literally the point I'm making. So while Bakongo culture has an extensive tradition of veneration for bisimbi and other nature spirits, this page can and does highlight the existence of bisimbi in other cultures outside of the historical context of the Kingdom of Kongo. Thus, the art for the page CAN also exhibit other representations of a simbi, even if they're not created by a Bakongo person.
And yes, descendants of Igbo people (and other ethnic groups) in the Americas DO in fact refer to Mami Wata as a simbi. She's also referred to as Simbi (the name). Though it shouldn't matter, the Bakongo people in DRC, RoC, and Angola also refer to Mami Wata as a simbi. It seems as though you just have a personal preference, but that doesn't constitute the removal of the image. The reference photo is Mami Wata, and Mami Wata is considered a simbi spirit. If you would like to credit a page that specifically focuses on spirits in Bakongo spirituality, you are free to do so and assign whatever image to the research that you've done. However, as this page researches simbi lore in full, Mami Wata is a part of that research, so it's not a fallacy or "lie," to quote you, to have her as the main article image.
In "Central Africans and Cultural Transformations in the American Diaspora" by Linda M. Heywood and "African-Atlantic Cultures and the South Carolina Lowcountry" by Ras Michael Brown, both talk about how colonization and slavery played a crucial role in the transfer of simbi (cymbee) beliefs to other ethnic groups and cultures in and outside of Africa, including the different Luba groups. That includes the honoring of Mami Wata as a simbi in Central Africa. The latter book also identifies how bisimbi became essential spirits in the spiritual practices and beliefs of both Native American and Black American communities in South Carolina. So Bakongo, Igbo, Cherokee, Mbundu, Mandinka, Fulani, and other peoples also venerated simbi water spirits and referred to them as "simbi." MiddleOfAfrica (talk) 18:14, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"They STILL refer to water spirits as bisimbi in their culture today. Bisimbi exist in other cultures, who also refer to them as "bisimbi." That's literally the point I'm making." What are the names of the authors who confirm that these non-Kongo peoples (Luba, Téké, Punu, Tetela, Ngombe…) in Africa venerate their water spirit by calling it "Simbi"?
"transfer of simbi (cymbee) beliefs to other ethnic groups and cultures in and outside of Africa" How does the transfer automatically mean an appellation transfer? Since when do the Luba, Téké, Punu, Ovimbundu, Ambundu(...)call their water spirit "Simbi"?
"Though it shouldn't matter, the Bakongo people in DRC, RoC, and Angola also refer to Mami Wata as a simbi" Not all Kongos call the water spirit, mermaid "Simbi" and Mami Wata is not a Kongo term.
"It seems as though you just have a personal preference, but that doesn't constitute the removal of the image." It's not a personal preference but consistency and respect for cultures! So if I follow your logic, the Kongos must now base their veneration of the Simbi on the Igbo people's representation of the water spirit just because "Simbi" was brought to the Americas?
"Mami Wata is a part of that research, so it's not a fallacy or "lie," to quote you, to have her as the main article image." There's already an article about Mami Wata. The moment you made it seem as if this image came from West Central Africa, you were lying to the readers. Isn't it an appropriation (the representation)? This image is on the Mami Wata article with the name of the country (Nigeria) plus the name of the people (Igbo) to which this image belongs.
"In "Central Africans and Cultural Transformations in the American Diaspora" by Linda M. Heywood and "African-Atlantic Cultures and the South Carolina Lowcountry" by Ras Michael Brown, both talk about how colonization and slavery played a crucial role in the transfer of simbi (cymbee) beliefs to other ethnic groups and cultures in and outside of Africa, including the different Luba groups. That includes the honoring of Mami Wata as a simbi in Central Africa." Which people brought the Simbi to the Americas? I repeat, apart from the Kongos, which Central African people in Central Africa call their water spirit "Simbi"? Because Luba people(…)don't call their water spirit "Simbi". JustSomeone08 (talk) 19:53, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, can you make sure that you hit "Reply" specifically for the comment that you're replying to so that the thread is in order and easier to follow? MiddleOfAfrica (talk) 18:16, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For some reason, I wasn't given the option to reply to your recent comment, so I'll reply under this one.
Bantu tradition DOES in fact exist. Bantu-speaking people in Central, East, and Southern Africa share a lot of cultural similarities that are specific to them. We see this beyond language to spiritual beliefs, such as the existence of Nzambi across countless cultures (See Nyambe). Apart from the Bakongo people, Simbi is used by pretty much every ethnic group in the DRC from Ngombe to the Cilubá, some in the RoC, and even some in north-west Angola, such as the Ambundu and Ovimbundu. Also, those in the DRC who revere Mami Wata, including the Bakongo, identify her as a Simbi. Literally. They even have art of her present at Simbi festivals and give offerings to her. Some, Zambian, Congolese and Angolan people also identify some Dona Fish, or mermaids, as Simbi.
This article is about Simbi, period. Mata Wata is seen as a Simbi, and if you go to the Mami Wata page, it says that she is also called Mamba Muntu because that is one of the Central African names for her, along with Madame Poisson and La Sirène. The statue in the photo is of Mami Wata and Mami Wata is venerated as a Simbi water spirit, so as long as the art is a representation of a Simbi and is respectful of the peoples who venerate Bisimbi, it should not matter the ethnic group in which the artist belongs.
And as for your Kianda comparison, Kianda isn't a Simbi. She's not a water spirit. Kianda is an actual water deity. She is not just venerated. She's worshipped. That's the difference. In Angola and Southwestern DRC, where belief in Kianda exists the most, simbi are also venerated in addition, but she is not considered to be one of them. That is why an image of Mami Wata wouldn't be appropriate for Kianda. They are not the same. MiddleOfAfrica (talk) 15:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"This article is about Simbi, period. Mata Wata is seen as a Simbi," Which Nigerian people call their nature spirit "Simbi"?

"and if you go to the Mami Wata page, it says that she is also called Mamba Muntu because that is one of the Central African names for her, along with Madame Poisson and La Sirène." This shows that these peoples have their own names, and that the name Mami Wata is not used by all Africans or all Afrodescendants! I'd already said that.

"The statue in the photo is of Mami Wata and Mami Wata is venerated as a Simbi water spirit, so as long as the art is a representation of a Simbi and is respectful of the peoples who venerate Bisimbi, it should not matter the ethnic group in which the artist belongs." Since when do the Igbo of Africa venerate their nature spirit by calling it Simbi? Since when is Yoruba culture Igbo culture? Since when is Kongo culture Igbo culture? Since when is African-American culture Igbo culture? Since when is Ewe culture Igbo culture? Since when is Fulani culture Igbo culture? Since when is Luba culture Igbo culture? Since when is Mbundu culture Igbo culture? Since when is Afro-Brazilian culture Igbo culture? And so on. So now you're telling me Kongo, Luba, Ewe, Fon, Yoruba, Ambundu, Ovimbundu(...)can venerate their spirit nature with the representation of the Igbo people's nature spirit? Isn't it an appropriation?

"She's not a water spirit. Kianda is an actual water deity. She is not just venerated. She's worshipped. That's the difference. In Angola and Southwestern DRC, where belief in Kianda exists the most, simbi are also venerated in addition, but she is not considered to be one of them. That is why an image of Mami Wata wouldn't be appropriate for Kianda. They are not the same" In the article we can read "O Desejo de Kianda (lit. The Wish of Kianda, published in English as The Return of the Water Spirit)", "Kongo equivalent: Simbi/Sawabantu equivalent: Jengu". So Maria Theresa Abelha Alves, Alice Werner and others who call Kianda a water spirit are wrong? JustSomeone08 (talk) 20:32, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"This shows that these peoples have their own names, and that the name Mami Wata is not used by all Africans or all Afrodescendants! I'd already said that." No, it shows that Mami Wata is a central water spirit in numerous cultures in and outside of Africa, who all use the name Mami Wata in conjunction with other names.
The second paragraph is an irrelevant tangent, and I'm not going back-and-forth over opinion. I'm only focused on the facts of the actual topic.
"In the article we can read "O Desejo de Kianda (lit. The Wish of Kianda, published in English as The Return of the Water Spirit)", "Kongo equivalent: Simbi/Sawabantu equivalent: Jengu". So Maria Theresa Abelha Alves, Alice Werner and others who call Kianda a water spirit are wrong?" Yes, depending on their definition of "water spirit," their use could be an inaccurate description for her. I haven't read their research, so I can't speak on it. Also note, I'm the one who added the Jengu equivalent to the page, and Sawabantu peoples along the coast also refer to them by the term "simbi."
Nevertheless, your responses don't address the actual topic of this conversation, which is that Mami Wata is considered a simbi. Thus, as long as the main image is of a simbi, it is appropriate for this page. MiddleOfAfrica (talk) 15:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

«In Bantu tradition, bisimbi exist across hundreds of cultures, not just the Bakongo people. While they began as a part of Bantu spirituality in Central and Southern African, Bisimbi are revered by people of African descent throughout the diaspora as well.» Bantu tradition doesn't exist! Just as the European tradition doesn't exist! Bantu is a linguistic group! give me the names of the other peoples in the Bantu language group who also call their spirit nature "Simbi/Kisimbi (pl: Bisimbi)"!

«Bisimbi are revered by people of African descent throughout the diaspora as well. Thus, this page is about global simbi lore, which includes Mami Wata, who is also celebrated in Central Africa, including in the Democratic Republic of Congo.» Apart from the Kongos, which people brought the name Simbi to the Americas? Apart from the Kongos, who call their nature spirit "Simbi"? Which Central African people call their water spirit, mermaids "Mami Wata"?

«So no, it's not a contradiction to acknowledge both of those truths from a historical standpoint. You seem to be under the impression that the art has to be created by a Kongo person, but it doesn't because this page isn't about the Bakongo people;» This article is about a Kongo cultural element, this article bears the Kongo name "Simbi" and yes it's contradictory to put a statue of a divinity of another people on the pretext that the same divinity is found among the Igbo! The photo of the statue is already featured in the Mami Wata article, which makes sense https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mami_Wata! So on the pretext that this divinity is also found among the Igbo, the photo should also be added to this article https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kianda?

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