Talk:The Greatest Showman

Featured reviews in Critical response

We shouldn’t be putting every review on the internet in the Reception section. Wikipedia is clear about this; cited reviews should be from promenant and reliable sources, meaning they have a Wikipedia article about them or are at least featured on Metacritic, meaning they’re one of the top 50 outlets. Otherwise film articles run the risk of falling out of line with being neutral, as its easy to include blogs and smaller sites to fit a narrative. (cc CerberaOdollam) TropicAces (talk) 14:19, 20 December 2017 (UTC)tropicAces

Feel free to trim it down. JDDJS (talk) 16:11, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

@TropicAces: These are on Rotten Tomatoes. If Rotten Tomatoes' reviews are not reliable then how is that you mention to this website's average rating & critical consensus??? CerberaOdollam (talk) 06:08, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Not every review on Rotten Tomatoes is reliable. Rotten Tomatoes includes lots of self-published bloggers. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:48, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

@NinjaRobotPirate: So we shouldn't take Rotten Tomatoes' rating as a criterion, right? CerberaOdollam (talk) 07:57, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Rotten Tomatoes itself is reliable, but not every review cataloged on Rotten Tomatoes is reliable. They have to be vetted individually. We have different standards than Rotten Tomatoes. We still use their rating and consensus, though, because many sources consider it to be a reliable aggregator. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 08:33, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't make sense. 'itself is reliable, but its reviews not'??? Rotten Tomatoes is made of these reviews. The rating & aggregate is based on these reviews. If Rotten Tomatoes rating is reliable then the reviews that made that rating is reliable too. CerberaOdollam (talk) 09:18, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

No, that's not how it works. We have our own standards for reliable sources, and not every review on Rotten Tomatoes will satisfy them. We use the aggregate scores from Rotten Tomatoes because the site itself is reliable, not because every review on it is reliable. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 09:28, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

the site itself is reliable but not every review on it is reliable: Sorry but this sentence is not sensible and coherent. Your words contradict each other. CerberaOdollam (talk) 09:45, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

CerberaOdollam NinjaRobotPirate you're being very passive aggressive here and it’s becoming clear that you just aren’t willing to accept the consensus here. Wikipedia is a group venture; at a point you’re going to have to realize that. I feel Ninja has been more than fair and clear with their explanation. TropicAces (talk) 11:07, 21 December 2017 (UTC)tropicAces

@TropicAces:"Aggressive"?? This is just a calm discussion. Please do not prejudge & label others. I'd never add a review here if it wasn't from a credible source. for example, CLTure is an official music, film and arts publication. Why would you say it is not valid? CerberaOdollam (talk) 11:17, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

@CerberaOdollam: well I said “passive aggressive” which is something very different, and CLTure doesn’t seem to have a Wikipedia page so (to me) it would seem they aren’t valid enough to be worth mentioning (as both Ninja and I have stated). TropicAces (talk) 11:34, 21 December 2017 (UTC)tropicAces

Just because it doesn’t have a Wikipedia page it means it's invalid & uncredible?? What is that mean? There are billions of contents in the world that still don't have a WP page. CerberaOdollam (talk) 11:40, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

It should be mentioned somewhere that the film is entirely fictional.

Yeah, his first wife was named Charity, and his museum burned down (twice), but aside from that, it's all bunk. The daughters never growing up is annoying as hell...Arglebargle79 (talk) 00:30, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Music section

Why is there tracklisting on this page even if there is a separate page for the soundtrack album of this movie? HARSH RATHOD (talk) 07:18, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Because it's a musical film and these are the musical numbers of the movie. It has nothing to do with the soundtrack album's article. CerberaOdollam (talk) 09:36, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Reception

It has received generally favourable reviews.Apkflash 1 (talk) 04:55, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

I agree. The page is wrong saying "mixed" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.56.89.219 (talk) 13:15, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Cast section is a joke

You’ve got every non-notable cast member conceivable listed here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2D80:6A83:C200:D0F:E514:C1E2:9812 (talk) 17:44, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Should we start a new section called "Historical accuracies"?

I think we should do it because I think the film has historical inaccuracies, even though there are historical accuracies in the film. First, if you did watch the film, then you can analyze thoroughly before writing the new section. Second, we should find any reliable sources to back up what we claimed in the new section. Third, I think we should mention P. T. Barnum's politics since the film didn't mention it. Finally, this video mentioned historical inaccuracies, if you don't analyze the film thoroughly. This video was made by Joseph Hall-Patton, who was distantly related to George S. Patton. I think that's it from me. You can start a new section without me, even though I will be here to start a new section. Emotioness Expression (talk) 05:34, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Sequel?

How come talks of a sequel aren't mentioned on here? - Cineplex (talk) 11:26PM - June 7, 2020

"Oriental Man"

This article refers to a minor character as "Oriental Man".

The term "oriental" as applied to people is offensive and pejorative in both British and American English. See Orient#Current usage. The film itself does not refer to the character as "Oriental"; the character is credited as "Ensemble Dancer #2". That is, it is the Wikipedia article that introduces the pejorative "Oriental"

The term was corrected to the nonpejorative "Asian" by an IP editor with the edit summary "Oriental is an offensive way to describe someone so i changed it".

HiLo48 reverted it with the summary "Asian is too vague. Oriental would have been tor word used at the time."

That's probably correct: but completely irrelevant. If the character was not referred to as "oriental man" in the film or its credits, Wikipedia should not be introducing the pejorative term.

Because I think the IP editor had it right, I reverted back; ("Undid good-faith revision 981718403 by HiLo48 (talk); it would have been used at the time, but Wikipedia does not have to use it; note he is credited as "Ensemble Dancer #2" not "Oriental Man"; no reason for enwiki to adopt an insensitive word when the film does not").

HiLo47 again reverted: "Reverted. Asian is unclear. It could mean a Jordanian. Please take this to the Talk page."

So, here we are. Should the a Wikipedia article introduce a pejorative term for a minority group that was not in use in the film itself? If HiLo48 truly believes a reader would think this is referring to a Jordanian, which seems unlikely to me, I'd be okay with something along the lines of "East Asian", but since they've already indicated what seems to be a pretty strong preference for the pejorative, I figure let's get the consensus and took their invitation for a talk page discussion. TJRC (talk) 02:13, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Shouldn’t the cast/characters names be listed as they are credited for the film? I see no mention of either “Asian man” or “Oriental man” anywhere, instead having it as “Ensemble Dancer #2”. KaitoNkmra23 talk 02:26, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

TJRC - I didn't want to turn this into a big fight, but you are misrepresenting sources, and attributing views to me on absolutely no basis at all. This is a fraught area, and I know many people have very rigid ideas on these terms. My rigid view is that Asian is a terrible descriptor. It is appallingly inaccurate. And sloppy. It means very different things in colloquial British English and American English, and the literal meaning is obviously different again. Do you know the history of the use of "Asian" in the way the IP editor used it? East Asian is not much better. Still very sloppy, and does not really describe what is meant when it is used. The link you provided DOES NOT say "The term "oriental" as applied to people is offensive and pejorative..." It is much more qualified and nuanced than that. And I DO NOT have a strong preference for the pejorative. That is confrontational language. I would not use that language myself to describe anyone in today's society, but I believe it fits in this story. If people here really think the word is pejorative IN THIS CONTEXT, I shall bow to consensus. HiLo48 (talk) 02:34, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

I have to ask the same thing as KaitoNkmra23. All of the cast members with references link to the same Tumblr blog, but not the exact post. As Tumblr is a blogging service I seriously doubt it can be considered a reliable source. Even IMDb credits the actors with "names" like "Ensemble Dancer #2". I believe we should think about removing these titles that seemed to be assigned to them arbitrarily and simply say something like Alex Wong as Ensemble Dancer #2. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 03:19, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

I will also remind editors that Wikipedia is not censored. If that is what Wong's character is actually referred to in the show, then that would be strong support for keeping "Oriental Man" in. Otherwise, reducing the character descriptions is the ideal course of action. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:06, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

I totally agree on the WP:NOTCENSORED. If the role were listed as "Oriental Man", then that's how it should be stated. My objection is introducing the term "oriental" to describe a person into the Wikipedia article. TJRC (talk) 05:17, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

WP:FILMCAST states that “All names should be referred to as credited, or by common name supported by a reliable source”. The source provided for Wong’s character, as Tenryuu had said before, is Tumblr, which is a website that wouldn’t classify as a reliable source. His character should be listed in the article as credited, unless a reliable source says otherwise. Keeping the cast/characters as credited is probably the best option at the moment. Same goes for every other character that may contain this misconception. KaitoNkmra23 talk 06:44, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Okay, so it seems like there are currently three trains of thought here and what I believe to be their rationales:

1. Keep as "Oriental Man". The source given refers to the character as Oriental Man and should be kept as such.
2. Change it to "(East) Asian Man". The use of "Oriental" is pejorative and should not be used if possible.
3. Remove "Oriental Man" and just credit the actor with what he is referred to in the film. The source provided is not reliable. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 16:42, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

That's not quite correct. There is no indication that the film or any source referred to him as "Oriental Man"; that's pretty much the point. The term "Oriental man" as used in this article is Wikipedia's own characterization, not from a source.

The Tumblr page, for what it was once worth, is no longer available to view, but that passage, including the Tumblr reference, was added here, and reads "Alex Wong as Oriental Man, a man dressed in an oriental outfit. He was credited as 'Ensemble Dancer #2.'".

The question is, if the film credits the role as 'Ensemble Dancer #2,' should Wikipedia instead report that as "Oriental Man"?

If the role were actually credited as "Oriental Man", there would be no question that "Oriental Man" should appear in the article, per WP:NOTCENSORED. The issue is whether Wikipedia should, on its own, introduce the characterization the role as "Oriental Man" when the film does not do so and no source (reliable or otherwise) relied upon by the article uses the term. TJRC (talk) 17:36, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

That's the point I'm making. Since I wasn't here for when the source was added, I'm assuming that was the rationale for using "Oriental Man": a source that isn't reliable per Wikipedia's standards. It is possible that the character is based off of a real person known as Oriental Man in Barnum's shows, but that remains to be seen. As there isn't a reliable source for any of those characters in the cast list, I personally believe they should be reformatted and use only the roles credited to them in the film. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 20:56, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

I guess what I want to make clear is that even the edit that added the phrase stated that the role was credited as "Ensemble Dancer #2"; and not as "Oriental Man". There appears to be no source, reliable or otherwise, that used "Oriental Man"; that's a Wikipedia invention. TJRC (talk) 01:03, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Editors who have taken part in this discussion (TJRC—KaitoNkmra23—HiLo48), given what we've discussed, I propose the following (not set in stone):

The cast list should only refer to actors and their roles' names, unless their description is pertinent to the plot of the film. Alternative names should not be used unless it has been mentioned within the film or in reputable sources.

I realise that this may also remove pre-existing trivia like Sam Humphrey as Charles Stratton, a dwarf performer who is also known by his stage name General Tom Thumb. In performing this role, Humphrey had to walk on his knees since he was taller than the actual Stratton. If evidence that alternative names are given is shown to exist, we can re-discuss list items on a case-by-case basis. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:31, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

No. I withdrew from this discussion to watch how it progressed, and haven't been impressed. My earlier comments stand. I actually have more concerns now. This man got his description for some reason, and nobody seems to be able to say why. We need to know. Someone said his name was Wong. Where did that come from? It's obvious political correctness and a desire to not offend anyone is influencing some here. That's not a good basis for writing an encyclopaedia. HiLo48 (talk) 21:45, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

My apologies for pinging you. I will respond to give my view if you are interested in checking back in.

• This man got his description for some reason, and nobody seems to be able to say why. Without digging into the article's history, it's most likely from the Tumblr source that was used. I'm suggesting that in the absence of a reliable source (or a time from the movie), that information (and the citation) should be removed.
• Someone said his name was Wong. Where did that come from? Alex Wong is the name of the actor who assumes the role in question. He appears in the external links given (e.g., IMDb full cast and AllMovie cast list).
• It's obvious political correctness and a desire to not offend anyone is influencing some here. While I won't deny that we are somewhat influenced by political correctness, TJRC said that using "Oriental" would be unnecessary [i]f the character was not referred to as "oriental man" in the film or its credits; they also said that they would amenable to the inclusion of "Oriental" [i]f the role were actually credited as "Oriental Man". —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 23:34, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Oh, the ping was fine. And what you've said there seems better informed and less emotionally driven than a lot of comments that have been made before. HiLo48 (talk) 00:19, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

@Tenryuu: I’m satisfied to proceed with that proposal. KaitoNkmra23 talk 03:02, 6 October 2020 (UTC)