User talk:Boynamedsue

Trouble at Black Legend

Cateyed, on the second day of his editing here, decided to create The Black Legend, covering Spain, and to reduce the long-established Black Legend page to a rump. Before he got started Black Legend was nearly 34k raw bytes, he then expanded it up to nearly 62K, before removing the Spanish stuff and reducing it to under 10K. I haven't had time to to work through his changes, though it is clear his English will always need a basic check for grammar and spelling, and his additions seem to be reference-free. I didn't think this was acceptable without discussion, so for now I reverted back to a version before his big cut. This page gets over 300 views a day, and has always been somewhat of a target for problems. I haven't formed a view as to whether a generalized "black legend" page is needed, but if it is, I don't think Black Legend and The Black Legend are sufficiently distinct titles. Perhaps this should be resolved by a WP:RM discussion, but I'm asking for preliminary views at the BL talk page first, ideally from those who have looked through Cateyed's many additions, at BL and at the other article. You're one of the top editors, so I'm informing you. Johnbod (talk) 01:56, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

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Sourcing

You are making presumptions about the sources at my disposal and relying solely on one. Suffice to say I can back that up. WCM_email 14:55, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

@User:Wee Curry Monster Well instead of being cryptic, why don't you add it somewhere people can see. You know, in good faith, like? In wikipedia we can only go on what users actually link or cite not arcane knowledge they allude to. I'm not being funny here, I genuinely believe Dickson is not notable because of what is in the article and the sources I've seen. It's not an article of faith. Boynamedsue (talk) 15:01, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I drafted this some time ago, you may or may not find it helpful.

Contemporary accounts

Captain Onslow's report and orders are in the British Archive at Kew Gardens. Rear-Admiral Baker’s orders to Onslow, and several different versions of Onslow’s report on his visit to Port Louis, are in PRO Adm 1/2276, and in PRO FO 6 500, pp. 96 (orders), and 116-124 (Onslow’s report as sent to British chargé d’affaires Philip Gore in Buenos Aires; Onslow's orders were clear.

“ “you are not to disturb them in their agricultural or other inoffensive employments.” ”

Onslow's report documents his efforts to persuade them to stay, many wanted to leave as the Falklands were a harsh place to live and the Gaucho's had not been paid since Vernet's departue in 1831.

“ I had great trouble to pursuade 12 of the Gauchos to remain on the Settlement, otherwise cattle could not have been caught, and the advantages of refreshments to the shipping must have ceased. ”

“ I regretted to observe a bad spirit existed amongst the Gauchos, they appeared dissatisfied with their wages… The whole of the inhabitants requested me to move the government in their favour for grants of land. ”

Pinedo (An Argentine source)From Pinedo’s testimony at his trial later in 1833, AGN Sala VII, Legajo 60, p. 22: “… los habitantes que quisiesen voluntariamente quedan, que serian respetados ellos y sus propriedades como anteriormente…”) corroborates this:

“ … those inhabitants who freely wished it should remain and both they and their property would be respected as before… ”

I ask you to note that the two eye witness accounts corroborate.

The Complete Works of Charles Darwin online includes the diaries of both Charles Darwin and Captain Fitzroy. HMS Beagle visited the settlement in March 1833 and again the following year. In March 1833, Fitzroy documents his meeting with Matthew Brisbane, Vernet's deputy, who had returned to take charge of Vernet's business interests. Fitzroy also documents his efforts to persuade the settlers to continue in the islands. Both Darwin and Fitzroy document their meetings with the settlers supposedly expelled 3 months earlier.

Brisbane brought one Thomas Helsby who also kept a diary and documented the residents of Port Louis. Residents of Port Louis This pretty much co-incides with Pinedo's account in January 1833. All without exception members of Vernet's settlement.

There is also Thomas Helsby's accounts of the Gaucho murders, when disgruntled Gaucho's ran amok and murdered Vernet's representatives.

Neutral

Lowell S. Gustafson (7 April 1988). The Sovereignty Dispute Over the Falkland (Malvinas) Islands. Oxford University Press. p. 26. ISBN 978-0-19-504184-2. Retrieved 18 September 2012.

“ Sarandi sailed on 5 January, with all the soldiers and convicts of the penal colony and those remaining Argentine settlers who wished to leave. The other settlers of various nationalities, remained at Port Louis. ”

I place a great deal of emphasis on Gustafson as an American academic who has studied extensively in Argentina. The book received a lot of praise for its neutral approach to the subject matter.

“ Nevertheless, this incident is not the forcible ejection of Argentine settlers that has become myth in Argentina ”

Empahsis added

Julius Goebel (1927). The struggle for the Falkland Islands: a study in legal and diplomatic history. Yale university press. p. 456. Retrieved 18 September 2012.

“ On April 24, 1833 he addressed Lord Palmerston, inquiring whether orders had been actually given by the British government to expel the Buenos Aires garrison... ”

Emphasis added

Mary Cawkell (1983). The Falkland story, 1592–1982. A. Nelson. p. 30. ISBN 978-0-904614-08-4. Retrieved 18 September 2012.

“ Argentina likes to stress that Argentine settlers were ousted and replaced. This is incorrect. Those settlers who wished to leave were allowed to go. The rest continued at the now renamed Port Louis. ”

“ According to Argentina, the Falklands fell under the control of "the Spanish authori ties responsible to the Government and Captaincy-General of Buenos Aires" in 1967, with Argentina succeeding to the claim upon gaining its independence from Spain. A short-lived and "only partial" British occupation "was abandoned" in 1774. Then "on 3 January 1833 the British ... ousted by violence the Argentine authorities ... an action which was followed by the unlawful occupation of the Malvinas by the United Kingdom... ." Since then, "the Argentine Government has upheld a continuous claim to its rights ... throughout the entire time that has elapsed. . . ."43 Accordingly, "[w] hen it is considered that Argentina was deprived of the islands by an illegitimate act of force, it becomes clear that the governing principle here is that of the territorial integrity of a country, which is enunciated in paragraph 6 of resolution 1514 (XV)."44 Needless to say, the British view of the historical background of the dispute is differ ent: "British sovereignty, which was first established in 1765" was "peaceably reasserted" in January 1833. It is a demonstrable fact that since 1833, that is to say for nearly a century-and-a-half, . .. the United Kingdom has maintained an open, continuous, effective and peaceful possession of the Fallkland Islands. There have been, of course, numerous diplomatic exchanges between my Government and that of Argentina during this period ”

Gunter (1979)

“ Much is made in successive presentations of the Argentine case of the next episode in the history of the islands: the supposed fact that Great Britain 'brutally' and 'forcefully' expelled the Argentine garrison in 1833. The record is not nearly so dramatic. After the commander of the Lexington had declared, in December 1831, the Falklands 'free of all government', they remained without any visible authority. However, in September 1832, the Buenos Aires Government appointed, in place of Vernet, an interim commandant, Juan Mestivier. The British representative immediately lodged a protest, but Mes- tivier sailed on the Sarandi at the end of the year to take charge of a penal settlement at San Carlos, his Government's reserve on East Falkland. There was a mutiny, led by a sergeant of the garrison, and Mestivier was murdered. At this juncture, on January 11, 1833, H.M. sloop Clio arrived at Puerto de la Soledad when Pinedo, the com- mander of the Sarandi and 25 soldiers were attempting to re-establish order. The so called 'brutal' eviction is laconically recorded in Captain Onslow's log: Tuesday 1 Jany. 1833. P.M. Mod. with rain 12.20 shortened sails and came to Port Louis (Soledad), Berkeley Sound ... found here a Buenos Ayrean flag flying on shore. 2.30 out boats. 3 furled sails. 5.30 Moored ship . . . Wednesday Jany. 2. Moored at Port Louis A.M. Mod. cloudy ... loosed sails and landed a party of marines and seamen and hoisted the Union Jack and hauled down the Buenos Ayrean flag and sent it on board the schooner to the Commandante. Sailmaker repairing the Main top Gallant sails.... In the interval between these two entries, Onslow had 'civilly' (his report) told Pinedo that he had come 'to exercise the right of sovereignty' on the islands and asked him to haul down his flag on shore. Pinedo protested, but said that if the Buenos Aires flag were allowed to fly until January 5, he would leave with his soldiers and anyone else who wished to go. When Onslow proved adamant, Pinedo agreed to embark his soldiers, but he left his flag flying on shore. This was why Onslow sent it to him by one of the Clio's officers. Pinedo sailed on January 4 and was later punished by the Buenos Aires Government for failing to offer any resistanc ”

Metford (1968)

“ The situation in early 1833, after Britain had established control of the Falkland

Islands through Captain Onslow and the Clio, was that the one settlement, at Port Louis on East Falkland, upon Clio's departure, was left without a garrison and under the control of civilian residents, including William Dickson and Matthew Brisbane. These two men and three others were murdered by gauchos and Indians formerly employed on the Islands during the earlier period of United Provinces' (later Argentina) rule (Darwin, 1834; Cawkell et al., 1960; Metford, 1968; Boumphrey, 1969). All but one of the other settlers present that day took refuge on islands in Berkeley Sound where they were contacted by the Royal Navy who, in January 1834, in the presence of Lieutenant Henry Smith and HMS Challenger, arrived and restored order by catching and expelling the murderers.

”

Royle (1985)

“ Britain therefore despatched HMS Clio (Cmdr. J.J. Onslow) and HMS Tyne (Capt. Charles Hope) from the Rio de Janeiro headquarters of the Royal Navy South American squadron on 29

November 1832. The vessels arrived at the Falklands on 20 December, entered Port Louis harbour on 5 January 1833, and expelled the Argentinean military garrison and "Governor" Don Juan Esteban Mestivier.

”

Dickinson (1994)

“ On April 24, 1833 he addressed Lord Palmerston, inquiring whether orders had been actually given by the British government to expel the Buenos Aires garrison ”

Goebel (1927)

“ Argentina likes to stress that Argentine settlers were ousted and replaced. This is incorrect. Those settlers who wished to leave were allowed to go. The rest continued at the now renamed Port Louis. ”

Cawkell (1983)

“ Before Pinedo sailed from the Malvinas he appointed Political and Military Commander of the Islands, a Frenchman name Juan Simon who had been Vernet's trusted foreman in charge of his gauchos ”

Destefani (1982)

David Tatham (2008). The Dictionary of Falklands Biography (Including South Georgia): From Discovery Up to 1981. D. Tatham. ISBN 978-0-9558985-0-1. Retrieved 18 September 2012.

Source for the British Government position

[1] The Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

Source for the Argentine Government position

[2] Argentina’s Position on Different Aspects of the Question of the Malvinas Islands

“ This is because the specificity of the Question of the Malvinas Islands lies in the fact that the United Kingdom occupied the islands by force in 1833, expelled the people that had settled there and did not allow their return, thus violating the territorial integrity of Argentina. Therefore, the possibility of applying the principle of self-determination is ruled out, as its exercise by the inhabitants of the islands would cause the “disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity” of Argentina. ”

Note specifically the claim made is that the settlers were ejected. Note also Gustafson above specifically rebuts this claim as many academic sources do.

Not to mention the schizophrenic nature of what Argentina claims.

[3]

“ Once order had been restored in Puerto Soledad, a British Royal Navy corvette, with the support of another warship in the vicinity, threatened to use greater force and demanded the surrender and handover of the settlement. After the expulsion of the Argentine authorities, the commander of the British ship left one of the settlers of Puerto Soledad in charge of the flag and sailed back to his base. ”

“ Before Pinedo sailed from the Malvinas he appointed Political and Military Commander of the Islands, a Frenchman name Juan Simon who had been Vernet's trusted foreman in charge of his gauchos ”

On the one hand its claiming the settlers were expelled, in the same document it refers to the settlers left in the islands.

• Boynamedsue, I really need you to stop referring to the Anderson case and that Clarin article. As an admin, I consider this a serious violation of WP:BLP, and below I will leave a templated note indicating just how serious this is on Wikipedia. If you need an article like that, with all of its implications (not to mention a picture of an ID, with all kinds of information), to prove a point about citizenship or whatever, then that point is not worth making. Please use more proper sources, from more reliable publications, without having to go into individual examples of living people. The BLP applies everywhere, including article talk pages and user talk pages, so please don't bring this up anywhere on Wikipedia anymore. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 16:35, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Drmies. I will follow your advice regarding this case, given what has been posted on your talk page. I don't think I was doing anything that violated WP:BLP, and I would stress that no reference to any individual was ever entered in the article. It is also worth noting that EL Clarin is considered to be a reliable source on the Spanish wikipedia, and there is no reason not to think it should be here either. Boynamedsue (talk) 17:01, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. It may well be that Clarin is accepted elsewhere, and it may well be that it is acceptable here. I was just struck by the picture of that ID--that seems to me to be a pretty blatant disregard for international standards of journalism. Be that as it may, the material is not appropriate here, at least that how it seems to me. It is possible that other administrators disagree with me, of course, and that is a matter that could be discussed, but speaking also as an editor, I would not accept such...legalistic? statements on naturalization etc. be based on such an article. I understand the matter is complicated, which I think is all the more reason to source it differently. Anyway, thanks--I appreciate your cooperation. Drmies (talk) 17:06, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Falkland Island citizenship

I don't think any future discussion will be productive.

Your position is that because the Malvinas are considered part of Argentina under its law and also their law recognizes jus soli, that people born in the Falklands are Argentinian by birth. Jus soli requires birth withing territory not just claimed by the state but under its control.

Also you continually confuse someone who is born a citizen with someone acquires a right to claim citizenship at birth. These are two entirely different things and we cannot use a source that claims one thing to support another.

If Argentina provides birthright citizenship to people born in the Malvinas or gives them an unconditional right to claim citizenship, then there should be legislation or an executive order showing this so that passport officers would know whether to issue passports. Failing that, there should be a conclusion legal opinion. In comparison, I can provide you with the legislation that proves people born in the Falklands are British citizens: The British Nationality (Falkland Islands) Act 1983. And I can also provide a history of their citizenship status as well as legislation that provides a right for people born in the Falklands who have not acquired citizenship to apply for it.

TFD (talk) 21:26, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

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Mkucr talk page comment

I moved your latest comment to be under the comment of mine you appear to be responding to, to avoid confusion. Hope you don't mind. AmateurEditor (talk) 09:30, 14 February 2021 (UTC) No problem at all, I agree it's a better place, thanks. Boynamedsue (talk) 10:05, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Exasperated

Hi. Do you mind if I share with you a maddening example of a certain user’s modus operandi?

This is what I’m talking about (and this, and this, and this, and this). Contrary to consensus here.

The latest rationale is totally bogus, by the way. The fact that politicians from city A in country B emigrated to country X does not qualify city A for categorization under country X. By that standard, a Category:Politicians from Nairobi should be placed under Category:British politicians, because of Peter Hain.

Anyway, the pattern is always the same: said user (1) does something objectionable, other user (2) reverts, user 1 reverts again, writes walls of text about even the most minor matters, until user 2 eventually gives up and finds something better to do, like stare at a ceiling. I recently had to run a weeklong poll just so I could add four words; look at the sheer amount of text expended! It’s been going on for years, too. I wish something could be done... — Biruitorul ^Talk 04:05, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Biruitorul. I think it constitutes disruptive editing, as the main goal is to wear down the other party and enforce an individual's POV without any reference to wikipedia's policies. When he tries it on pages watched by large numbers of people, it gets reverted after very quick RfC's. But when it's Eastern European stuff, he often forces his POV in through sheer bloody-mindedness. Not sure what to do about it tbh. Boynamedsue (talk) 06:40, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

The other really dodgy thing he does when he has found a nice little unwatched page, is to threaten to delete large quantities of sourced content if he doesn't get his own edit through. So he will argue there is no consensus for 500 words if his 15 words don't appear, or for a paragraph if one word is different from his preference. Effectively he holds large tracts of text hostage as a negotiating tactic. Like I say, something should be done, but who is going to bell the cat? Boynamedsue (talk) 07:21, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

The behaviour seen here is Wikipedia:Edit warring, something for which there is a Wikipedia policy. The first step is to start a discussion with the user. User:Biruitorul did this on WT:CATP § Prior affiliations. Several users have answered there that it is nonsense to add a Hungarian politicians category to categories about cities in Romania or elsewhere outside Hungary. I posted an additional note on this user's talk page and on the talk pages of the affected categories pointing to the discussion. If this user still does not join the discussion (which they have not done yet, pointing to edit summaries instead), continues to restore their edits (regardless of whether they break the three-revert rule or not), they may be reported to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring and potentially blocked from editing by an administrator. I see BTW that this user seems to have a long history of being notified of edit warring by other users, which can potentially feed a case for consideretion of disruptive behaviour by administrators. Place Clichy (talk) 08:42, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

@Biruitorul:,

Biruitorul, what you described above is exactly my experience at Talk:Germans and Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups. If someone wants to take it to ANI, I'd certainly add my non-administrator's comment there. --Rsk6400 (talk) 19:18, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

I think there is definitely a case to be made here, or at least there should be, considering the sheer number of user hours being burned up. I'm a terrible wikilawyer, so I'm probably not the right person. Boynamedsue (talk) 08:16, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

BTW Rsk6400, I notice the use of the "if you don't do what I say, I'll delete your text" tactic on that talkpage too. Boynamedsue (talk) 14:12, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate the notification, Boynamedsue. While it looks as though there’s nothing further for me to say right there, this episode will be useful for future actions. — Biruitorul ^Talk 13:17, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Also, check out the Mafia-style tone here. Sounds almost like a threat, makes me want to ask “or else what?” — Biruitorul ^Talk 13:33, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

To be fair to him, the tone thing is more to do with his slightly incomplete control over different registers of English, there's no intent there. I am more worried about what happened to Azure94, hopefully, given Ymblanter's generally fair response, there will be less possibility of this kind of situation arising in the future. It is worth looking at those discussion pages, for your scrapbook. Boynamedsue (talk) 19:20, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

It really is true that some people are fundamentally incapable of changing their ways, even in the face of disaster. Sad. — Biruitorul ^Talk 16:54, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for starting that ANI discussion. I was a bit late in joining, but it'll feel like a heavy weight being lifted if some remedy will be found. He is / was really eating up time and energy. Maybe I should take WP a bit less seriously, but there were nights when I didn't sleep well. --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:03, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

I have to say, I am exactly the same. I lost sleep on several occasions due to the sheer frustration of having to either debate endlessly with KIENGIR on the talkpage of a locked article, or give up and leave a racist POV in the article of an ethnic group who were sent into gas chambers within living memory. I'd second your thanks to Biruitorul. Also, thank you for your contribution, it really rang a bell, the refusal to justify a position was the most frustrating thing... Boynamedsue (talk) 18:12, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks to you and to Biruitorul for your untiring work. Although banning someone is not something to make you feel good, I think it is better for WP. Boynamedsue, your advice to KIENGIR on their talk page yesterday was an example of fair play which I will try to learn from. And having the presence of mind to spot Securitate and understand its meaning in the middle of such a wall of text ! --Rsk6400 (talk) 19:58, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate both of your kind remarks. I’m glad this episode is over, ready to move on. This was not a step I initiated lightly or in haste. I actually had not been to ANI since 2016, when I reported the same user. (Much aggravation would have been saved had there been consensus back then for a restriction, but better late than never.) However, things really were spinning out of control, and it simply was the right time to act.

I think the 20-0 pro-ban vote, mostly by users who don’t know one another, speaks for itself. The oft-mentioned boomerang failed to fly back. Anyway, we can now breathe easier, undo some damage, and no longer fear even our most minor edits being dismantled. Best of luck going forward. — Biruitorul ^Talk 20:22, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it was surprisingly easy, if a little sad to see him lose his head so completely. I think his problem was the sheer number of users who had been stung on the Nazi Germany page. He has been doing this kind of thing successfully for years in backwaters, picking on inexperienced users. If we hadn't been watching it is likely his bullying of Azure94 would have driven them offsite through frustration, god knows how many times something similar has happened over the years. I feel bad to take something from someone in this way, but he is incapable of interacting in any other way. If he had even had the sense to lie about being contrite, he could probably have stayed on the site, but he is unable to admit the possibility he might be wrong. It is the only way, it was never going to stop. Anyway, it's over, and we can relax, take care and thanks again to both of you. Boynamedsue (talk) 20:47, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Hungarian Romani Dispute

You said that if you had known how it would play out, you would have requested a Third Opinion. In my experience, that wouldn't have helped. Disruptive editors almost always ignore a Third Opinion. [[noping|KIENGIR}} was a disruptive editor, which is why they were banned. They would have somehow had the Hungarian Romani dispute taken either to WP:ANI or to the edit-warring noticeboard. If they had gone to WP:ANI, they might have been told to go to DRN. They would have eventually gotten blocked or banned. That is just the way things work. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:35, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

There we go, I can't help feeling that this is a systemic weakness in the way we deal with this kind of behaviour, but I suppose things are designed with the assumption of good faith and rationality. I guess my pushing it so far wasn't entirely rational either. Anyway, thanks again for your work on this. --Boynamedsue (talk) 06:59, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't know if you noticed, but the RFC was closed, saying that there was nearly unanimous consensus for Option A, noting that the only real objection had been from a user who was subsequently banned. So continue editing. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:54, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

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Wartime Transylvanian Roma

Hi there. Well, most of your sources will be in (gasp) Hungarian. This is a general overview of the Roma in wartime Hungary, though it does make some mention of the annexed territories. This, under 1941, gives some statistics. This, under Doboz, speaks of a massacre of Roma in Nagyszalonta/Salonta. This is a whole book on the Porajmos in Hungary, again with mention of Nagyszalonta; more here.

You’ll probably have to fire up the Google translator; I don’t really read Hungarian myself. Even if the information is somewhat sketchy, I hope it’s a useful starting point. — Biruitorul ^Talk 18:48, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

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Peer review for Dinogad's Smock

Hi there, are you still interested in the peer review for Dinogad's Smock? I can leave some feedback if you wish. Zetana (talk) 19:17, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

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Jewish Chronicle Ratings

I've just been reading the [survey you started on the Jewish Chronicle] regarding its reliability and suitability for referencing on Wikipedia. The outcome and summary seem very unsatisfactory for a variety of reasons.

1) the bar the IPSO Regulator places on publications is extremely low and the threshold for investigations very high. See also Will the Independent Press Standards Organisation Ever Uphold Any Standards?

2) the people who run and support the IPSO seem to have strong connections to the political Right

3) the cases keep piling up against the Chronicle with the IPSO finding against the Chronicle for breaching its code at least 28 times and sued successfully 4 times. IPSO faces calls to launch first standards investigation into Jewish Chronicle Jewish Chronicle’s Libel Payouts were a Small Price to Pay for Smearing Corbyn and the Left

We really need to know how this compares with other publications. I performed a few comparisons on the IPSO site eg Daily Telegraph, and it is very poor for factual accuracy in relation to its circulation, possibly a statistical outlier. The nearest equivalent which deals in religious-political affairs is 5Pillars which is regulated by the more rigorous IMPRESS. This was investigated once and the complaint was dismissed.

4) the Jewish Chronicle seems to enjoy considerable support from editors, which support it with positive ratings, but without much evidence to support them.

Those giving a top mark came up with 'reasons' such as

it's a major newspaper and the complaints are not so significant

why these "should this source be banned forever for being baddy-bad-bad and saying nasty things about people I like

Longstanding organization...amount of complaints & contents not particularly significant

it's as reliable as any other newspaper on these topics

it is regulated and complies with regulator's decisions, 5 upheld complaints leading to corrections doesn't amount to an awful lot

Isn't there a Wikipedia rule which recommends that evidence free or factually invalid views are not to be given significant weight in these Wikipedia discussions/surveys?

5) even if we take these 'favourable' views at face value, the average rating on the 1 to 4 scale used in this survey (for Left & Muslim issues) comes to 2.05. which places it at Option 2: 'Unclear, or additional considerations apply' Yet the summary says 'it's somewhere between a weak consensus that it's generally reliable and no consensus' which I don't think reflects the ratings given.

Do you think it worthwhile having this assessment re-reviewed by an experienced editor which can give some weight to the opinions which bear some relations to reality and the Chronicle's successive failures to meet the standards of the 'light touch' IPSO regulator?

The Chronicle is still rated in the Wikipedia 'green' reliable category in [Sources], although it suggests in-text attribution is used for its coverage of certain topics'. Surely, at the absolute minimum, a distinct category needs to be shown for political views, although given it's very poor record this is hardly satisfactory.

Andromedean (talk) 19:09, 30 October 2021 (UTC) Andromedean (talk) 14:58, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi Andromedean. I think the problem here is that the voting will always have a significant political element, in the UK it seems to be accepted that false reporting is not a big problem when the victims are left-wing. In addition, any of the users attracted to this topic are very politically committed to defending the validity of right-wing or pro-Israel media and this is unlikely to change. It is quite clear that if this was a publication that consistently libelled and falsely reported on doctors (say), its use with regards to the medical profession would have already been prohibited.

I tend to agree that too much weight was placed on extremely flawed opinions by the closer, and the intervention of socks was also a factor. user:selfstudier is considering opening a new case, in view of the interventions of Cathcart and the new cases of libel, but I think they are waiting for IPSO's response to a letter from 9 left-wing victims of the JC's libels and false reporting. Unfortunately, unless we have exceptionally strong evidence, organised political voting will likely muddy the waters again. Boynamedsue (talk) 16:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I'd like a little more before going back to RSN although I agree that the close was let's say it politely, rather lenient.Selfstudier (talk) 17:54, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Re Cathcart, yes I think his latest is here. His count for JCs breaches has now gone up to 33 in 3 years. The JC is perhaps the worst example of a more general problem of bias towards RW and pro-Israeli publications. I think we need to back up any RSN with a call to a wider range of editors, and closely examine the rules for using evidence based ratings in any discussion and survey. I think professional secondary source fact checkers and assessors such as Media bias/Fact check, should be used as part of such assessments (although the JC is excluded from assessment from this specific assessor). As expected I have come under attack when suggesting this in the past, because it helps to moderate the excesses of Wikipedia self selection, which can be as meaningless as a Twitter poll. Perhaps a more general discussion on this subject is required? --Andromedean (talk) 11:08, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

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Requesting help on systematic vandalism on Hungarian Spectrum

My name is Stevan Harnad and I've been a non-anonymous occasional editor of WP since 2005, but I have never mastered the technical details of remedying systematic vandalism. I created the Hungarian Spectrum page in 2020, but it almost immediately began to be attacked by what I infer to be a coterie of patroling trolls who police WP pages related to Hungary and particularly pages that have any bearing on the current Hungarian government. They are many, and I am one (and a full-time university professor) so I unfortunately lack both the time and the knowledge and experience to try to undo the systematic damage they are doing. The latest instance is Hungarian Spectrum as of November 30 when its founder and daily author, Eva S. Balogh, died suddenly. The Hungarian troll patrol now seems to be systematically bent on minimizing her legacy, beginning with trying to remove any mention or reference to her death, on the pretext that "WP is not the place for obituaries." I would be grateful if you could either intervene, or draw it to the attention of those who could intervene. Many thanks, User:Harnad (talk) 09:46, 5 December 2021 (UTC) User:Harnad (talk) 09:48, 5 December 2021 (UTC) User:Harnad (talk) 09:49, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Mr Harnad uses the WP for disseminating his political views and promote himself, check the Talk Page of his own bio. BTW, he himself created his own WP Bio in French... His latest project is to eulogyze his close friend, Eva S. Balogh on the net. This is the WP,not a site dedicated for the memory of deceased persons.--176.77.136.98 (talk) 10:12, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

BTW, if you check the Page History. you could find that I was not the only one, who found that it is off encyclopedic content.--176.77.136.98 (talk) 10:18, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Almost everything 176.77.136.98 says above is false, and most of it is repeating false things that prior anonymous Hungarian vandals like 176.77.136.98 have posted whenever I edited a page about Hungary that had anything to do with the current governing party or the current prime minister. They (under various anonymous URI's) do this all the time, and not just to my postings. In fact false innuendo and attempts at character assassination are the hallmark of the work of this team, often under the pretext of exposing "POV pushing" (where POV-pushing is anything said that is critical of the Hungarian government and its leader, or favorable to anyone who is critical of the Hungarian government and its leader, in this instance Eva S. Balogh, the founder of Hungarian Spectrum, on the occasion of her sudden death, which these vandals would prefer to pass without notice. But I unfortunately do not have the time or the resources to try to counter them. User:Harnad (talk) 16:28, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

"Éva S. Balogh as a leader of opposition, I, Harnad, as a university professor" etc. clearly indicate that u overestimate your importance, which is a clear violation of the notability principle of the WP. Then this "I am continuosly persecuted by Viktor Orbán" attitude and your canvassing on the HS.org to track me down are breaching the assuming good faith policy. You were close friends, you flood the internet, the WP with yourself, and with the stuff of your friends. You were the one who have just admitted that u use WP to criticize the Orbán-government. I am not the only one who rejected your posts. Are we all Orbán-fans? The whole WP is a big conspiracy for Orbán? --176.77.136.98 (talk) 17:15, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

(Fixed the spacing indents.) No reply to fact-less, mechanical, personal innuendo (except to note that it is very characteristic of the signature M.O. of smears-for-substance trolling, especially in Orban's Hungary). The WP default assumption of good faith (WP:AGF) is a valid one, initially, and for the first few iterations, but to persist in faith blindly after the contrary evidence and pattern become obvious and mechanical would be purblind, along the lines of credo quia absurdum User:Harnad (talk) 10:23, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

I'd just like to interject and bring attention to how our anonymous IP vandal tried to contact the infamous permabanned user KIENGIR, in order to canvas help for his cause --Azure94 (talk) 19:58, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

A glance at the edit history for Hungarian Spectrum will confirm that KIENGIR has already dipped into the Hungarian Spectrum entry in the past. (KIENGIR is now banned, thanks in part to the tireless and conscientious efforts (in other cases) of Azure94). User:Harnad (talk) 10:23, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

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My talk page

I don't often do this but I'm going to ask you to stop contacting me on my talk page. The last straw was templating me for edit warring when you have edit warred unconstructively to remove tags and are needlessly personalising a content discussion again. If you need to discuss content, do so on the article concerned.

Note, I won't be retaliating with a template warning tag but you can take this reply as an indication of my intention to report your behaviour appropriately if it continues. WCM_email 10:02, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

I have not engaged in any edit-warring whatsoever, indeed I have left the text you edit-warred into the article in place in order to avoid doing so. You have restored two misused tags against the guidelines displayed on the very page the tags lead to, this lowers the quality of the article. I have in fact been very careful not personalise the discussion. My advice would be to take a step back as I feel any report would lead to a WP:BOOMERANG situation, given I have done absolutely nothing wrong. As per your request I will not be contacting you on your discussion page. Boynamedsue (talk) 14:20, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

WP:WEASEL on the Mexico City Metro overpass collapse article

Hi there, just a note about the {{by whom}} maintenance tag you removed earlier today. That was one of several that I had put in to illustrate problems with the article that I was discussing on the GAN review page. It was just one of several illustrative examples I added at the time. The reason why I added the tag to the "Prior to the crash, the system had shown signs of deterioration, with general concerns being expressed about its maintenance" sentence is because it does not identify who is expressing concerns about its maintenance. That's the problem with writing in the passive voice; the reader is left to interpret the context of who the subject of the sentence is from the context of the sentences around it. Unfortunately, in this article, no context is given, and it's important to identify if it was independent structural engineering consultants, government regulatory officials, opposition politicians, local media, or surly teenaged bloggers who had been expressing the concerns about the maintenance of the system. The linked source may explain who is saying that, but the article doesn't, which is why I used that as an example of needed copyediting in the article because WHO is saying that is in many cases as important as what they are saying. Hope that explains things for you. RecycledPixels (talk) 19:52, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Manual of Style (MOS:PASSIVE), while allowing some exceptions, suggests that the passive voice "should still be avoided when it is not needed".

The {{by whom?}} tag militates against vagueness and against magical explanations. In-line citations do not always resolve such deficiencies - especially if they lack quotations. Does a referenced author hold the stated view? Or does said author simply record that some unnamed person in darkest Slovakia once held that view for a short period of time? Or even: does the referenced author clearly and specifically express the view of 99.7% of recognized experts in the relevant field? Perhaps we should introduce a {{passive voice crime inline}} tag to supplement {{by whom?}} .

The verb "to be" has its uses - especially when making dubious claims. Unfortunately, it can lead to ambiguity or to dogmatism. WP:MOS recommends "using straightforward, easily understood language". Encyclopedic language, in fact.

- 131.203.251.134 (talk) 03:46, 18 March 2022 (UTC)