User talk:BrownHairedGirl

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01:55 Friday 2 August 2024 Please click here to leave a new message for me (BrownHairedGirl) Note: if you leave a new message for me on this page, I will reply on this page unless you ask me to reply somewhere else. If you are replying to an existing message, please remember to: sign your comments, by placing ~~~~ at the end of the comments (see WP:SIG) indent your comment by placing a colon before the start of the first line (add an extra colon if you are relying to a reply)	click here to leave a new message for BrownHairedGirl BrownHairedGirl's archives + Cumulative index
Wikipedia Admin I have been an administrator since May 2006. Administrators have access to a few technical features which help with maintenance. I regard admin powers as a privilege to be used sparingly and judiciously, but if you require the assistance of an admin, please feel free to leave a message on my talk page. If you want admin help, please do try to explain clearly what you want done, and why, and please do remember to include any relevant links or diffs. I'll try to either help you myself or direct you to a more experienced person if appropriate.

Sorry

Hello BHG. Chatting with you today reminded me how much of a good editor you are. I wanted to offer a flower of apology for my rather intemperate response to your comments last week. You caught me at an unfortunate time and I reacted badly to what was clearly an attempt to help. I regret that and hope it will not effect our working relationship in the future. Rockpocket 05:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much, that's sweet of you. :) (And not just because I love flowers!)

I think I owe you an apology too, for stomping in rather heavily in the argument over how to coax Sarah; I intended to try to calm a difficult situation, but since that wasn't the effect, I evidently got my approach all wrong. Delighted to see that we have moved on, even if our sockpuppeteer friend hasn't! --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:48, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Its been bugging me all week, so I'm glad we're cool. Thanks also for the support here and elsewhere today and yesterday. I have gone rounds with Giano in the past myself, but these days I'm not too concerned over his verbal jabs. Like any good boxer, I think, he talks a good game. But away from the ring, when there is not a crowd to play to, Giano is a gentle soul and a perfect gentleman. Instead of getting irked by his comments, its my goal to out Giano as the big teddy bear that he really is!

Besides, the whole point of this little circus was to engineer a situation where someone would invoke his probation, giving Giano the opportunity to set his sights on the real objects of his ire [1] When, and it is absolutely inevitable, he eventually gets his wish and the Arbs do get involved again, I would very much rather I wasn't party to the underlying dispute. Rockpocket 17:47, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Rock, you are probably right that Giano has a better side; but having encountered him only in troubles-related issues, I have yet to see that side, and take care to avoid him otherwise. The whole everyone-who-doesn't-see-things-my-way-is-stupid-inept-and-self-serving act is exceptionally tedious and sadly predictable. I probably shouldn't have bothered commenting on it all, because doing so only brings more grief, since he has enough friends keen to give him licence to snipe. C'est la vie!

As you say, his final showdown with arbcom is probably going to be an event to avoid, and I'll put him out of mind again. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:42, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

"Troll"?

Troll, is it? Giano doesn't get to discuss the Troubles now? Mind your mouth and your tone, girlfriend. Please. Bishonen | talk 08:54, 11 March 2008 (UTC).

It's lovely to hear from you again Bishonen, though it's a pity that you only ever pop up on my talk page to defend Giano's trolling.

If Giano's interventions could occasionally acknowledge a few a salient points, they might be better received: e.g. the substantive problem here is a long-term disruptive editor who has been banned for using sockpuppets after umpteen last chances, and Giano does not support enforcement of the ban, preferring to attack the admins dealing with the case.

If you are concerned about "mouth and tone", could you please pay some attention to Giano's description of an arbcom ruling as a device to protect their "errors stupidity", or this instance of himdenouncing admins as "stupid" for enforcing policy against a banned sockpupeteer? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:28, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't pop up on any pages much lately. But I'm making an exception, because for you to post a provocative sneer at a user on civility parole seems so... so... well, I'll keep my vocabulary to myself. The best I can hope is that you weren't aware of doing that. (Even though a glance at Giano's page is enough for full information). Bishonen | talk 14:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC).

P.S. Ah. I now see that you were perfectly aware of it. [2][3]. You insult a user on civility parole... oh boy, I'm still blinking in amazement here. I'm sorry, but I must change my mind and be more explicit: that, BHG, was a dirty thing to do. Bishonen | talk 14:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC).

No, I became aware of Giano's civility patrol after I made my comment about his trolling, and I stand by it. Giano has a long history of sniping at anyone who takes enforcement action against Vk. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Bishonen, a troll is a troll is a troll. Reading through the linked thread, I have to agree with BHG. _(1 == 2)^Until 14:27, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

You're simply wrong. It's not acceptable for anyone, be they admin or otherwise, to be using such epithets towards established users in good standing. It needs to be a violation of NPA, for it's handling. All it does is inflame situations to allow petty voices to get in a free jab at others. Lawrence § t/e 15:30, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Good standing? Are we talking about the same person? I am sorry, but "being established" does not mean that intentionally soliciting a negative reaction is no longer trolling. You can be an established editor and still do such thing. I really don't think BHG was in violation of NPA because the comment was relevant to the projects goals and accurate. Don't think of a troll as a green monster as that is not what it means, it means someone fishing by dangling bait behind them. _(1 == 2)^Until 15:50, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

BHG, I think it's best that we all step back. We're all to the point where continued contact with this interminable conflict makes us ill, either psychosomatically, or physically. If AE wants to deal with them, I think it's best if we step back, say "Good Luck, you'll need it..." turn around, walk away, and DON'T look back. SirFozzie (talk) 15:58, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Excellent advice, I will take it. _(1 == 2)^Until 16:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Fozzie, you are probably right. (and thanks too to Until(1 == 2) for the timely support). --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:07, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Another Cornish MP needs a Box

Please can you help, yet again, with a complex box for John Hearle Tremayne MP for Cornwall for 20 years. Vernon White ^{. . . Talk} 09:58, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you think that you could have a go at this one, perhaps by using the box from Edward William Wynne Pendarves as a template? I'd be happy to look over it afterwards. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

May I copy one of your Userboxes?

Greetings--I was going to say "fellow editor" but that term does not seem gender-neutral. Is there a better adjective?. I came across your Userpage today and would like to make a copy of your Rotary Dial Userbox for my Userpage, with your permission. Being a relatively new editor, I am not sure if this is acceptable Wiki-behavior, so I thought it better to ask first. Please respond to my talk page. Thank you. Thomprod (talk) 17:25, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your message, and don't worry too much about the language -- so long as you aren't calling me "he", or (as one editor amusingly did last week), a "dick", it's fine :)

Anyway, the userbox is actually one I "borrowed" from someone else, and the code is {{User:UBX/Rotary Dial}}, I you want to ask permission, the person to ask would be UBX (talk · contribs), but in general it seems to be norm that once someone has made a userbox template, it's fine to use it. In any case, everything here has to be available for re-use, as a condition of it being published here, so I didn't see any grounds for anyone to object.

Anyway, good luck with you editing, and don't let the persistent rumblings of collective insanity distract you from the good work which happens here despite it all :) --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I actually enjoy a little "collective insanity" now and then. Happy editing. Thomprod (talk) 20:14, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome. :) --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I am older than you are and I remember cranking a handle to be put through to the operator and it was she who dialled the number. I also remember going to bed with a candle and an oil filled lamp. - Kittybrewster ☎ 09:19, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not quite old enough for the candle-to-go-to-bed-with (though I do treasure the enamelled metal candleholder which my father used), but while we didn't have a windy-handle phone at home, my grandmother in a rural area not only had one of those, but also a "party line". This was basically a shared phone line, so you could listen in on your neighbour's calls and vice-versa ... and of course, the operator listened in too. It was a very good to idea to remain on to be as nice as possible to the operator :) --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:25, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Para and ELs

He's done it for some while now - I came across him about 9 months ago on M62 motorway (then a GA) over a dispute over microformats and geolocation - IIRC, that's the reason Pigsonthewing got rebanned. Will ^(talk) 18:22, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes. I have no prob with him arguing that a particular link is a bad idea; what I object to is his repeated claims to be acting in accordance with a guideline, rather than simply in accordance with the way he would like a guideline to be rewritten. Very tedious :( --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:33, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Now that you bring it up Will, BrownHairedGirl's behaviour does indeed remind me of Pigsonthewing. On Template talk:Coord he managed to stall a proposal on tidying article markup for three whole months with his single gripe, probably because of his vocal outbursts and lack of participation from others. In this case the gripe is more obviously irrelevant, but the outbursts are maybe even louder. Looking at BrownHairedGirl's latest contributions and responses to them, looks like she's heading down the same path. Cheers! --Para (talk) 19:20, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Para, you have spent over a month telling lie upon lie upon lie, claimning that there were no objection when there were, then saying that there were "no valid objections" because they didn't support your own synthesis of policies; you have have had long detailed responses on a series of issues, then posted another long splurge at a new section and because others didn't wrote another few thousand words reiterating the points you ignored, you tried claiming that there has been no objection, and so on. You repeatedly inverted everything said by anyone who disagrees with you, and it's little wonder that few editors have had the energy or patience to engage with your bullying. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:34, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Shipping companies of Ireland

"Seamens Memorial"

Thanks for restoring Category:Shipping companies of Ireland I'm not sure if its the perfect solution. There were many such companies, the flags of the seven largest war-time companies are paraded by the sea-scouts every third Sunday of November. There were lots of smaller companies. Then there were companies such as Dublin Gas and Guinness with their own ships. Thanks again ClemMcGann (talk) 02:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

When it comes to Irish categories, there's rarely a perfect solution, what with all the difft states that have existed in overlapping spaces :( (We should probably be thankful that we don't have to deal with the tangles which exist over somewhere like GDanzig).

I fondly remember the Guinness ships, with their black-and-cream colour schemes and their names often borrowed from the women in the Guinness family. Sadly, they are no more, but here's an great article waiting to be written on them if anyone has the energy and the sources — and especially if they have the photos.

However, at the moment we don't appear to have any such articles. If they are written, we can of course create any necessary categories, but underpopulated categories get deleted, so there's no point in creating one now, when there seems to be only article for an 1801-1922 category. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Is it worth creating stubs? ClemMcGann (talk) 20:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

The writer Edward Burke (Shipwrecks of Ireland etc) tells me that he is currently writing a book on Guinness. It will have a chapter on the barges ClemMcGann (talk) 20:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but!

... the "but" being the stub needs to demonstrate the notability of the subject, and there should be some reasonable prospect that it could be expanded beyond a stub. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:15, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I need a bit of advise

Hi, Mom! I need some more maternal advise! I can foresee a revert war about to take place on this article. Thx2005 has reverted an addition I made to the article twice now. I originally added a campus police subsection which falls within WP:N andWP:WikiProject Law Enforcement. There is also wiki "case law" which backs my stance on including the subsection which is located here. I very civilly explained to him that I reverted his good faith deletion and stated the reasons why. He then reverted it back with a rather uncivil edit summary. You can see the diff here. Any help would be appreciated! Mahalo!--Sallicio^{$\color {Red}\oplus$} 02:59, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Archive index?

Hi, BHG: I'd been wondering about starting to archive my User Talk page, so am looking at what other people do. If I click on your link to "Cumulative index" I get ... ummmm ... an empty page at User_talk:BrownHairedGirl/Archive/Index. Is something going wrong? PamD (talk) 16:45, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

External link revert

Hi BrownHairedGirl. Just wanted to check that you actually meant to make this revert. It doesn't look like it's associated with the discussion on the talk page that you reference in the edit summary. -- SiobhanHansa 16:31, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

You're right, I got that wrong. Now fixed, and thanks muchly for the pointer. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

Beta mess

Hi BHG, you've been vocal on the BC/BCB issue, can you think of any new way forward to resolve this? Seems like we've devolved long ago into endless shouting and thread-forking, I can't keep track of where it's all happening anymore. Can you think of any ways to segment these issues, get some groups working on them, and get them at least partly resolved? An ArbCom case is going to take a whole lot of our time and likely end up with a finding of "editors should be civil". Any ideas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Franamax (talk • contribs) 08:32, 15 March 2008

Philately template problem

Do me a big favour and have a look the the philately template that is used for the project's assessments. There seems to be a problems because the unassessed articles are not removed in the new statistics and those articles seem all to be rated as list-class. I posted to Walkerma's talk page earlier as he was involved in the initial setup but you did some work on the Ireland WikiProject template and seem very experienced with that kind of thing, so maybe you can see the problem:
The stats produced here seem quite at odds with the assessments I made within the last few weeks. When I view the unassessed articles there are 518, yet the stats say 411 and I know that I assessed several of the lists of birds on stamps as you can see from the log entry for February 14, yet these same articles still appear on the unassessed listing today. I checked this within minutes of the bot updating the statistics page, so I don't understand what is happening. Any advise would be appreciated. And after I assess some more list-class articles, the number of unassessed stays the same, leaving the just assessed articles still listed as unassessed. This only seems to affect list-class articles as it works fine for others, so there is something amiss with the way the list-class articles are not being recorded as assessed when they are.

TIA ww2censor (talk) 16:34, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I was tempted to just be mischieviously dismissive and say that you had been censored, but that wouldn't help much :)

Anyway, I have checked out the template and it looks OK: I haven't triple-checked all the code, but wshen I test the template, it categorises correctly, and so far as I can see that's all matters.

My next check was in the categories themselves, but they seem to be properly parented ... so I started scanning Category:Unassessed Philately articles.

The problem appaers to be something to do with how the template handles list-clas article: see for example Talk:List of birds on stamps of Belgian Congo, which is in Category:List-Class Philately articles, Category:Low-importance Philately articles and Category:Unassessed Philately articles.

I'm trying to figure why this is happening, and will post again when I have either figured it out or given up. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, I fixed the template and ran the bot, but that hasn't caught everything: the stats are better, but still don't match :( The bot reports 431 unassessed article, but the category includes about 460. I'll check the template again. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:22, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Did another tweak and purged the template, and it looks about right now. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:54, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I am really thankful. I think you have fixed all the issues. I found that some redirects were also tagged even though the article was assessed. It is curious that Outriggr's script shows the assessment of the article and not of the redirect page even when that is the page you are looking at, so I have removed the template from any redirect pages I found. Thanks again. ww2censor (talk) 01:50, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm very glad that fixed it! It took me more attempts than I had hoped.

The redirects issue is an interesting point, because I have encountered it so many times with {{WikiProject Ireland}} tagging. Bots are a sore point at the moment, but it would be great to have a bot which untagged article that had been redirected. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Walkerma made some interesting comments about list-class that you may want to read here. The tagged redirect issue is indeed curious. Again thanks. ww2censor (talk) 03:30, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Barry Garvey

Please note that Barry Garvey is not a member of the gay pride organisation or its affiliates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PatrickFlaharty (talk • contribs) 19:16, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Nóirín Ní Riain

Dear Brownhairedgirl, All information is based on written public material. The references and sources are there. As far as I know there is no other or more objective material to refer to. Please reconsider your remark. Thanks for your time. Hans Sentis (talk) 08:06, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Hans

It would have helped a lot if you had included a link to the article, just by putting brackets around Nóirín Ní Riain and even more so if you had included a link to my comments. I had to burrow around a bit before Special:WhatLinksHere/Nóirín_Ní_Riain pointed me towards this brief exchange two months ago, now in my archive, after I had tagged the article as {{unreferenced}}. I looked at the article again, and it's clearly very much improved — well done!

I have removed the unreferenced tag, but although I haven't added any tags, there are still a few other small things that need attention:

• per WP:MOSBIO#Subsequent_uses_of_names, "After the initial mention of any name, the person may be referred to by surname only". However, the article current refers to her as "Nóirín"
• "Biography" is a poor section title, sine the whole article is a biography; it would be better to call that section "Career". (There is a guideline om this somewhere, but I can't recall which one)
• A few references are just inline links using [http://something.somrewhere]; those should be converted to proper footnotes <ref>{{cite web}}<ref>
• The article does seem a little overwhelmed by rather gushing praise for her ... but my searches didn't find any commentators prepared to break out of the hagiographic consenus

If you want to expand the article a bit, I found an interesting piece in the Irish Independent as well as this feature interview in the same publication.

The article could really do with a photo, so I have added Image:Replace this image female.svg to request one.

Hope this helps! --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Again thanks for your remarks. Hans Sentis (talk) 13:13, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Betacommand 2

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Betacommand 2/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Betacommand 2/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Daniel (talk) 15:37, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

What a pity it has come to this, but since everything else has failed, I'm glad that arbcom has taken on the case. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:40, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Scouting in Northern Ireland

Greetings. I have just noticed your interest in the articles on Scouting in Northern Ireland, and in particular your suggestion that some of the topics of these articles are not notable. It has been a long established view of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting that articles on the organisation level one below national should be allowed. This gives the project a powerful weapon to effectively delete by merging any new article on lower levels such a Scout Troops, Scout Districts, Scout Camp Sites, Scout Events etc. This is a weapon that we use frequently and it certainly prevents the growth of Scout cruft. This works fine in places like Australia and the USA where the articles are on States, but the level below national in the UK is the Scout County or Scout Area, and these are fairly small. In Scotland they are in the process of replacing many Scout Areas with a much smaller number of Scout Regions. It will be interesting to see whether Northern Ireland, England and Wales will follow. It would certainly help us on wikipedia. Currently there are few UK Scout editors, so I doubt your tags will be noticed by editors from Northern Ireland right now. I try to keep an eye on things from a distance at the other side of the world. I'm not sure what to do about these articles. I am working on a plan to remove all the crufty lists of Scout Groups. This will involve copying the articles to the ScoutWiki, which also uses the GFDL and then deleting the lists, but it will take time. Any ideas? --Bduke (talk) 21:45, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Good idea to transwiki them, but how about merging all those county list to a wider Scouting in Northern Ireland article? The redirect pages would still contain the history of the articles, so you could always retrieve the text at a later date. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:01, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I did think of that, but in spite of what I suggest above about lack of interest, I suspect I would not find a consensus to do this. Also it really needs someone who knows about the complex situation in Northern Ireland and in particular the role of Scouting Ireland as well as the Scout Association. NI can be trouble. See Northern Scout Province for their contribution in the North. It would have to be titled The Scout Association in Northern Ireland. Indeed there is a suggestion that the County articles should be renamed The Scout Association Area of Belfast or whatever, but the final naming is not yet agreed. I'll try to transwiki them soon, by moving them to the top of the list. I started with England but I'm still at "B"! --Bduke (talk) 22:28, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Scór

Hi I notice you placed a {{primarysources}} on Scór, I'm confused as to where this policy came from and whats it's purpose not only on this articles but others .Can't articles have reference from their governing bodies any more. Surely their is cases like the ref on Scór which can only come from one place ? Gnevin (talk) 21:50, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

It's a by-product of Wikipedia:Notability. Primary sources can be used to verify facts, but notability is established by substantial coverage in non-primary sources. If nobody except an organisation itself regards it as being of significance, it's not something which Wikipedia (as a tertiary source) should be covering: WP covers things which others have found notable. I'm sure that Scór does have substantial coverage somewhere, but the article so far gives no indication that Scór is of significance to anyone except GAA members. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:57, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Awe so its about Wikipedia:Notability i though it was about WP:V, cheers confusion lifted Gnevin (talk) 22:12, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I guess there's a bit of WP:V issue as well, because sometimes people or organisations can paint a rather too rosy picture of themselves … but I think the main issue is notability. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:14, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Irish Maritime

• hint* *hint* ;) I just saw your message on Clem's talk page. Care to join up? - Alison ^❤ 00:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I can see that I have been volunteered :) So 'tis done. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

CSB projects

Hi BrownHairedGirl, do you remember that conversation with User:Blackworm at WikiProject Gender studies?[4]. Well it might be interesting to look over at this. And perhaps this if you get a chance--Cailil ^talk 12:06, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointer. More rhetoric, no evidence :( --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I suppose you've read this post[5]--Cailil ^talk 11:35, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. This barrage of rhetoric has gone on long enough, and I have given him a warning. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:12, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I have raised this at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Blackworm_disrupting_discussion_pages. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:56, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Could you have a look

This article seems to be a copy of 2008 in video gaming should this new one be deleted and if so under what criteria thanks. BigDunc (talk) 12:59, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Dunc, I think you are right. It doesn't meet any of the suggest Criteria for speedy deletion, but it looks to me like a content fork. I suggest first raising the matter at Talk:2008 in video gaming (North America) and asking Randomengine (talk · contribs) to agree to redirect the page, and if you don't get agreement then take it to WP:AFD.

Hope this helps. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:09, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Will do that thanks. BigDunc (talk) 13:15, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

His reply suggests that AfD is the only option or does he have any validity in the points raised?BigDunc (talk) 14:17, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that depends on how trivial one regards the recording of every minor detail of the video games industry. I'm not aware of any other other industry covered in such extraordinary detail, and if you compare it with automobiles (a truly huge global industry), you'll find that there is nowhere near near as much detail there. We don't have splurges of separate articles on every minor variant, and you'll generally find that even a very high-selling car like the Ford Fiesta just has one article on all its variants over 30 years; yet total sales of that model amount to about $100billion over the last 30 years. Compare that with video games, which spawn masses of spin-off articles on individual characters, and one can see a clear case of systemic bias. The question, though, is whether all this detail on the video games is really encyclopedic, and at what point it starts to descend into trivia. Randomengine clearly thinks that the 1998 North America list is encyclopedic, but I think it's trivial: it's one thing to list every instance of a specific class of product, but once you start listing it by year and by specific market, where do you stop? List of washing machines launched in 2008 (Europe)? List of washer-driers launched in 2007 (France)?

More importantly, the video games industry is pretty much globalised. North America is one of the big markets, and it would be perverse for a publisher to delay launch there for long, so the N, American list is always going to be largely similar to the global list; all it really does it to note which day the launch took place. And where does this stop? Do we have 2008 in video gaming articles for every market? Australia, Russia, China, Japan, Italy, Iraq, Polynesia, Rwanda, Liechtenstein ... a line has to be drawn somewhere.

So there's a case on both sides, but it looks to me like one worth taking to AFD. However, if you take it there, do remember that a legion of angry video gamers will probably be along soon to denounce you :)--BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice I'll look out for them ;) But since I started RC patrolling regular especially the new pages I am definetly not an inclusionist regarding articles and as you say the games ones are a prime example of spawning multiple variations on the same game. BigDunc (talk) 15:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Republic of Ireland postal addresses

Would you have look at the edits made by the admitted WP:COI (see my talk page) editor to Republic of Ireland postal addresses? I have not reverted his edit for a 3rd time today but have given him a 3RR warning here with other reasons why his edits are improper to this topic as edited. TIA cheers ww2censor (talk) 23:48, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Now blocked (see User talk:83.70.211.45#Blocked). Very persistent edit-warring in pursuit of a blatant COI. However, I have read the Irish Times story Cork tech firm introduces numeric postcode system and it may merit some sort of brief mention. The story is weak, because it contains no independent analysis of the gpsireland system and reads very much like a reprint of a press release — the only person quoted is "Gary Delaney, the director of GPS Ireland", which sounds liked our edit-warring friend — but a one-sentence mention might be in order. --01:31, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Interesting that Gary is, most likely, the same person; he left his email address on my talk page as [email protected]. I don't have access to the IT article, besides which the Irish Times has subscription only access, so we can't really use that, can we. According to the only page I can access it is very specifically not an official postcode system but really a gps system. I think they are misusing the term postcode which I know to be a system used by the postal authority of a country, in this case An Post, and their system has not yet been approved or published. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 01:45, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh, the reference is very useable. Subscription-only sites are fine for reference (otherwise we couldn't use books!), but are banned for external links.

I think that their system is an interesting idea, a sort of simplified grid reference which could serve all sorts of purposes. I think that its status at the moment could be best regarded as a novel approach to the problem which might be used to make a formal proposal to the govt/An Post, who so far as I know have yet to clarify how they would design a postcode system. It could actually be quite good for an article such as this to discuss difft methodologies for postcode-creation, but that would need some more reliable source than a lazy journalist using a single source. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:57, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

TVM ww2censor (talk) 02:16, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

FYI, our 3RR anon-IP editor has registered as Garydubh today and posted on the same pages again, though differently, and been reverted. I have moved his posts from my talk page to his and responded to his latest comments. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 23:56, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Golly gosh, you are a tough admin; I better not get on your wrong side, but then I don't know all the admin rules. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 00:25, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm usually a puddy tat, but this guy a) evaded a block (which in itself justifies resetting the block); b) resumed edit-warring; and c) continued trying to promote his own products. If he really wants to improve articles, he may well have the knowledge to be a very valuable contributor on these matters, but so far he is just trying to use wikipedia to promote his own products, and that will earn him rapidly-escalating blocks if he persists. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:05, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

WwCensor and BrownHairedGirl..... I did not revert an edit - I retyped it - check and make sure you are applying the rules correctly. I did not evade a block I registered for the first time as recommended. BrownhairedGirl - yesterday you suggested to Wwcensor that the system I designed was worthy of discussion and that the Irish Times article could be referred to but he persists on demanding that any system discussed must be approved by the Government. I should not have to say this again but the reference to the Irish Independent article is a reference to something that is not Government approved and could never be as it is an inaccurate report and not technically useable. Will someone insist on some consistency here..... Brownhairedgirl - you were asked for a ruling and you gave it but have been ignored.

I am not going to go away on this - either get rid of reference to the article in the Independent or use reference to the Irish Times article - my suggestion would be to get someone else to rewrite the article completely - someone who knows something about it and does not believe that we live under martial law where anything referred to must be approved by the Government............. Finally my propsal is not a commercial product - it is not for sale - it is a proposal as are all other proposals referred to in the article.

I feel significantly agrieved here - I am aware I have broken editing rules and believe me I have better things to be doing with my time. I am new to wiki and for a long time believed that I was not entering my occasional content correctly as it kept disapperaing - until yesterday when I noticed for the first time that it had consistently been romoved for reasons which are completely inconsistent and a ruling given is now been ignored. You can imagine why anyone would get angry about this and would be adamant that this has to be redressed!!!

Is there anyone really in charge in Wiki or is it a case of whoever gets there first wins!!!!

I can find nothing about either of you - you are both pratically operating incognito - let me say that at least I am upfront about who I am and where I can be contacted directly - Gary Delaney - 021 4832990 - [email protected]

Can we please agree at least that as a compromise that this and any other article referring to the issue of Irish Post Codes be removed until someone independent rewrites them completely.

Look forward to hearing from you on this by this evening.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.211.45 (talk) 07:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

????Garydubh (talk) 00:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

First, please stop evading blocks. Your IP was blocked, so you created an account and resumed editing under that; then you are evading the block on your account by not logging in so that you could comment here.

As to anonymity, wikipedia policy is that editors have aright to anonymity if they seek it. If you dislike that policy, wait until you are unblocked and seek consensus for changing it. (Beware: it's a well-established policy)

As to retyping rather than reverting, what matters is that you added content substantially similar to that which had been removed, which is edit-warring.

If you want to propose an article for deletion, you should use the WP:AFD process. However, I doubt you will find many editors agreeing to delete a well-referenced article simply because a number of editors have reverted your attempts to use wikipedia to promote your own business. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:16, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Wrong- You state above "then you are evading the block on your account by not logging in so that you could comment here" - check the times my last post was at 00:37 on 21 March after my block ended. I had hoped that you who seem to be reasonable would redress this issue. Again you say that this article is well referenced. It references an Irish Independent article - you agreed that the Irish Times article could be included and now you continue to block me for insisting that it is. The article is no more that incoherent bits stuck together with no meaningfull discussion on definitions, needs, proposals (except 1 which is incorrectly reported) and likely users. You have taken responsibilty for this article through your moderation - the article is now redundant and with no value - one sided, protected and the guy censoring it who calls himself a "censor" now just removes discussion about it on his talk page...... I am not going away - use your repsonsibility in this area wisely - the world is watching. Garydubh (talk) 07:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Gary, I have just deleted a long [essay by you] about your GPS/postcode system, because it is irrelevant here.

This is wikipedia: please follow wikipedia's rules:

• WP:COI: Wikipedia is not a place to promote your business or your pet project or your point-of-view
• WP:NOR: Wikipedia does not publish original research
• WP:V: everything in wikipedia must be verifiable from reliable sources.
• WP:NPA: no personal attacks. That means not saying "[people who obviously know nothing about this"
• Don't lie. You claimed above that you had not evaded the block. Wrong: you posted at ) 07:23 from an IP address while you were blocked.

Now, I'll be brief, and blunt.

You started on wikipedia by edit-warring to insert links to your own business in wikipedia articles: you were blocked for the edit-warring, and will be blocked again if you repeat it.

I have not edited the Republic of Ireland postal addresses article other than to correct a citation[6], and I have no particular interest in the substance of this dispute. What I am interested in, as an admin, is ensuring that wikipedia's policies are followed.

It is quite clear that so far no other editor supports your proposed changes to the article. If you believe that they are wrong, you can discuss the issue at Talk:Republic of Ireland postal addresses, and try to achieve consensus. You will find that other editors want to make sure that everything is properly sourced to reliable sources, because wikipedia's standard for inclusion is verifiability, not truth (see WP:V). You will probably find that other editors are unwilling to accept as a reliable source a newspaper article which reprints your press release without seeking external comment, but that's a decision which the editors working on that article will make. If you don't like what they conclude, you can seek wider input by opening an RFC.

However, the main thing that you need to bear in mind is that you have a conflict of interest here. You are out to promote you business, but Wikipedia is not an advertising medium, it is a free encyclopedia. Plaese stop treating it as free advertsing.

If you want to promote your postcode system, start a campaign: write to TS and ministers and newspapers, buy advertising, organise demonstrations, mount publicity stunts, whatever -- that's all quite legitimate and none of my business. However, trying to use wikipoedia as part of your campaign is my business, and you have been repeatedly asked to stop. That includes spamming the same lengthy post to several editors( [7], [8], [9], [10], [11] and [12]). Don't do that: post once, and then post a link for other editors.

Now, please: less drama. If you want to discuss this, please do so at Talk:Republic of Ireland postal addresses. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:50, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Well said. This has already gone on too long and wasted enough of our time, though I must admit I was sucked in for a final time and have responded on his talk page again, but that's it for me. It's rollbacks or undos henceforth. BTW, as a matter of interest, have a look at this GeoDirectory website. Have a great Easter. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 22:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

More time-wasting from User:Garydubh deleted. If you want to discuss an article, discuss it on the article's talk page, not mine. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

More time-wasting from User:Garydubh removed. As above, discuss an article on the article's talk page, not on my talk page. As above, that's Talk:Republic of Ireland postal addresses. Geddit? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:15, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

So, about these postcodes then? ;) One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 14:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Aaaaaaaaarrrrgggghhh!!!!! ;) --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:25, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh, for god's sake. Yet more verbiage from from User:Garydubh removed.

Which part of the following do you not understand: discuss an article on the article's talk page, not on my talk page. As above, that's Talk:Republic of Ireland postal addresses. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:35, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry is your discussion page not for discussion - particularly for matters you raise on your discussion page - ok lets call this your "statement" page!!!Garydubh (talk) 14:38, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Final warning, Gary. Next time I'll ask for action to be taken against you for harrassment. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Jut let me know BrownHairedGirl, this user has gone well beyond the realm of legitimate complaint an is now bordering on harassment. Gary, let it drop. _(1 == 2)^Until 16:09, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, 1!=2. I have left a warning on his talk page, but his subsequent comments suggests that he still doesn't understand how "discuss this at Talk:Republic of Ireland postal addresses", let alone anything else about how wikipedia works.

I'll see what happens! --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:15, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

My apologies for ever getting you involved with this guy, but thanks. ww2censor (talk) 16:18, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

No need to apologise -- situations such as this need many hands, and I'm glad to be able to help! Anyway, I think we are near endgame now: he has been repeatedly warned, and has run out of chances. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, but thanks anyway. You are a star! ww2censor (talk) 16:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

One for your tagging spree

1973 Mountjoy Prison helicopter escape. I'd add it myself, only I'm sure project members will take umbrage at my importance and class ratings, although the latter might not be in dispute. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 10:22, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

"Up in the air and over the city ..."

Rated as B-class/mid-importance. I remember the incident very well. We were stopped by a Garda checkpoint when crossing the bridge at Carrick-On-Shannon, and when we asked what the problem was we were told "some of the lads are after getting out of the 'Joy". He was grinning. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

PS I meant to say, it's another fine article — well done! Just as well for wikipedia that your membership of the escape committee was revoked ;) --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:10, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, and roadblocks seem about as useful as closing the gates! I'm just miffed that in all the sources there are for it, not a single one actually says it was the first ever successful (or possibly even at all) helicopter escape, despite that being the case. And that's my penultimate article, as I've just got one other I'm finishing off. I can't be bothered with all the never-ending arguments any more.... One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 12:13, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, the roadblocks were good theatre and gave the Gardai something to do :) In those days, that bridge would be blocked several times a year.

You're right about the silliness of the never-ending arguments, but I just filter it out as background noise. Like the never-ending rain where I live, or the weeds in the garden that grow as a result, it's just part of the package, and I try not to concentrate enough on the good stuff not to let it get to me.

BTW, I thought that the idea for the escape had come from a film, though I dunno which one. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:27, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, there's a film mentioned in one of the sources - "One particular volunteer on the outside had been busy at that drawing board. He was watching television one Sunday afternoon when he saw a movie featuring a daring helicopter prison escape. Why not? he thought". I'm just not convinced it's that important to put in the article, and couldn't find a particularly encylopedic way of phrasing it either. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 12:31, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

It'd be easily done if we had the name of the film, but without the name I agree that the wording is likely to be clumsy. However, if the stylistic problems can be overcome, it does seem to me to be appropriate to include something on the inspiration for a novel escape method. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually it wasn't the first helicopter escape I've just discovered. Apparently this was the first one, as I discovered it after seeing the brief mention in the headline of the NYT article on the escape. If I think of a convenient way of adding the film detail in I will, but it's not looking easy. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 12:55, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Even without the film ref, the precedent deserves a mention. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:14, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Rollback question

Can you explain, in simple terms, the difference between getting rollback rights and the rollback ability of the Twinkle script? It seems to me that there is no greater benefit in getting rollback rights than continuing to use Twinkle's rollback features. Am I confused or have I missed something obvious? Cheers. TVM ww2censor (talk) 04:08, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

The Twinkle rollback is javascript-based, and requires user input, which is good if you want to leave a msg in the edit summary, but a nuisance if you just want to rapidly revert without comment. Horses for courses, really: I find the built-in-rollback much better for mass reversion, and the Twinkle rollback better if I want to comment on the reasons, particular if I also want to leave a msg for the person whose edits are being rolled back. So I like having both :)

Hope this helps! --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:16, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

For some reason, I have the impression you are in Ireland, so you must be up early today, or never went to bed. OTOH maybe, like me, you are Irish but in a US time zone. Anyways, thanks for the explanation. I am usually a one-shot pony, so I think Twinkle works fine for me for now, but I am sure I can always get rollback right without a problem. Thanks ww2censor (talk) 04:25, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

a proposal to merge WP:PROF into WP:BIO

There is an ongoing discussion of a proposal to merge WP:PROF into WP:BIO at Wikipedia talk: Notability (academics). Since you have commented in AfD discussions for articles about academics, you may want to participate in the discussion of this merge proposal. Regards, Nsk92 (talk) 12:13, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Triggerman (band)

Hey, how's it going? I'm just drawing your attention to the proposed deletion of the page. I have since satisfied the notability guidelines and will continue to do so. Thanks, Ryannus (talk) 13:32, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but I still see no evidence of substantial coverage in reliable sources, which is the main criterion for notability (see WP:N), nor do I see any sign of it meeting the tests set out in Wikipedia:Notability (music)#Criteria_for_musicians_and_ensembles. See my reply on the AFD page. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I have refuted your argument on the Afd. Ryannus (talk) 14:29, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

NO you haven't. Please provide evidence of which of the tests is met. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:30, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I apologise for seeming a bit arrogant. I just read back a few of my posts and realised they may have sounded bad. Ryannus (talk) 15:01, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

That's OK, I understand you feel miffed that the article may be deleted, so I discounted any growliness of tone. Thanks for the apology anyway, but it wasn't needed :)

The main thing, though, is that you do need evidence of that substantial coverage in reliable sources. It would help too if you formatted the references using the {{cite web}} or {{cite news}} templates — that makes it much easier for the reader to understand the nature of the reference than if they just see an external link. Good luck! --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

Your ANI post on Blackworm

I've contributed my meager opinion. Not sure it's helpful but I'll try to keep tabs on the discussion. Given the longterm nature of his disruption despite several low-level attempts to alter his behaviour, I suspect it may take more than those kinds of measures. Cheers, Pigman☿ 16:09, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your msg and for your ANI comments. I disagree with Blackworm, but that's not what concerns me: the problem is that his interventions are not focused on improving the articles, but rather on denunciations of other contributors and/or airing his views on the subject. I suspect that an RFC/U will be required to deal with it. :( --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi BrownHairedGirl I've just posted something to the ANI thread - basically I've said that if Blackworm is worried about the Projects he should RFC them rather than make off-topic posts to article talk space. AFAIK, and as far as the WP:PROJECT pages say, RFC is the right process to discuss a project but if I'm wrong please correct me. It is possible that Blackworm's argument goes toward an MFD for WP:CSB rather than an RFC. I don't want to be accused of sending him to the wrong places / through the wrong processes--Cailil ^talk 23:38, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Excellent suggestion: RFC or MFD if he wants, but no more soapboxing. I have posted at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Blackworm_disrupting_discussion_pages to endorse your suggestion. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:48, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree with deletion

I agree with this deletion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Paul_F._Whelan --Sebastian Palacios (talk) 08:17, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

John Ogilvy

Please would you have a look at this parliamentarian. - Kittybrewster ☎ 20:10, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I presume you mean Sir John Ogilvy, 9th Baronet? Looks genuine (according to Rayment's list, but the article isn't even near stub-class. Needs categories, refs etc. --20:38, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Viscount Molesworth

Looks like articles Viscount Molesworth, Irish title and Viscount Molesworth of Swords needing merging. Can you help, please? Lots of Succession Boxes Vernon White ^{. . . Talk} 23:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I have merged them, and added {{s-reg|ie}} to the boxes on the 1 & 3rd Viscounts. Hope that helps. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

PROD on Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

I have removed the {{prod}} tag from Pádraig Mac Lochlainn, which you proposed for deletion, because its deletion has previously been contested or viewed as controversial. Proposed deletion is not for controversial deletions. For this reason, it is best not to propose deletion of articles that have previously been de-{{prod}}ed, even by the article creator, or which have previously been listed on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. If you still think the article should be deleted, please don't add the {{prod}} template back to the article, but feel free to list it at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. Thanks! Redfarmer (talk) 10:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

You're the second person to readd the PROD so I took the liberty of nominating it at WP:AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pádraig Mac Lochlainn. Cheers! Redfarmer (talk) 10:59, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

When I tagged it, I wasn't aware of the previous PROD — if I had been, I would have AFDed it. Thanks for doing the AFD nom and for being kind enough to notify me. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:47, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Mick Quinn

Just to let you know, I only "created" the article in a cleanup job, by moving some text that somebody else had inappropriately inserted into the article on a different Mick Quinn. I couldn't even begin to assess whether he's notable or not; I know absolutely nothing about him whatsoever. Bearcat (talk) 14:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, I'm sure you acted in good faith, but per WP:V I think it's best to just remove any such unreferenced material on a non-notable rather than create a new article. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

PROD on Mick Cassidy (artist)

I have removed the {{prod}} tag from Mick Cassidy (artist), which you proposed for deletion, because its deletion has previously been contested or viewed as controversial. Proposed deletion is not for controversial deletions. For this reason, it is best not to propose deletion of articles that have previously been de-{{prod}}ed, even by the article creator, or which have previously been listed on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. If you still think the article should be deleted, please don't add the {{prod}} template back to the article, but feel free to list it at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion. Thanks! Redfarmer (talk) 15:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

You're too fast for me! :P Redfarmer (talk) 16:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

That's 'cos I use Twinkle, which is brilliant and makes many of these tasks very much much much easier :) --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:15, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Ongoing discussion about bias and WP:CSB

I'm taking this out of AN/I; I don't see the purpose discussing this there. Here, you write: First you try pinning on others the claim that they believe "there must automatically be bias in favour of certain racial and gender groups based on the demographic makeup" ... and then when challenged you back down, ... I'm not backing down. Your niggling, semantic diversion is irrelevant, as the two statements are arguably equivalent. I've been questioning the very existence of this bias from the start, as you can plainly see from my post of 05:04, 18 March 2008 on WT:CSB: I'm not concerned yet with what steps we take to counter the bias, I'm concerned with the proof that this specific kind of bias exists. I ask you now to retract the statement that I am "backing down" from any position or shifting my position in any way in this instance. Further, even if I was shifting my position, I do not see how that would be evidence of trolling. On the contrary, I'm open minded about this, and very often in the context of discussion, points raised by one side will give rise to counter-points (i.e. solve the raised issue, but bring to light new issues). When the issues are all resolved, the whole discussion is resolved. That's what discussion means. Discussing that is not trolling. It's discussion. From the beginning you wanted to halt this discussion, involving several editors, by focusing on administrative threats directed at me. I'm sorry, but I do not see any merit in your demand for that discussion to end, administrative threats notwithstanding. I've already said I have nothing more to say on it until others answer the questions I posed on those two project pages. I am, however, forced to respond to misrepresentations of my position.

To be clear, no one has convinced me "systemic bias" exists, and no one has presented a basis for its existence other than an implied link from the demographic composition of the English Wikipedia, the facts of which the folks at WP:GS guess at based on an unreliable self-selected Internet survey of German Wikipedia editors. If you want to state that the evidence of the existence of systemic bias in Wikipedia is not OR, present the evidence and find a source for it -- so far, none has been presented and your claim that it is not OR is wholly unsupported.

Here, let me recap for you the sequence of events in this questioning of WP:CSB:

• I see a WikiProject page that claims a disproportionate number of Wikipedia editors of a particular sex and a particular race, among other factors, and tacitly implies that their points of view and contributions must be actively "countered."
• As the validating reasoning for this seemingly un-Wikipedian activity (i.e. can I choose a race/sex to counter too?), the group points to "systemic bias," which they seem to describe as "the bias that's just there, in the system." Some others in the group also refer to it as "systematic bias," carrying a notion of intentional, methodological planning; presumably on the part of editors with the specific attributes (primarily sex and race) that they list.
• As evidence of this systemic/systematic bias, I am referred to original research claiming that the demographics of Wikipedia are non-representative.
• Taking the WP:OR demographic claims as true for the moment, I point to the fact that even if true, no logical or causal link has been established between the demographics of editors in Wikipedia and the existence of article bias in favour of that group. Indeed, I claim that to infer such a link without reliable evidence is tantamount to a failure to assume good faith on a wide scale, and in this case also a specific targeting of editors of a specific sex and race.
• In response to this, I am given hand-picked examples of articles with differing levels of coverage, and told that these articles are "evidence" that systemic bias exists at Wikipedia. I regard this argument as nonsense. One cannot make such a generalization with the level of confidence needed to take direct action globally against it, without a decent analysis or some kind of global study, even an methodologically flawed one, such as a good-sized random sampling and bias assessment. Since this doesn't seem obvious to the members of this group, I am forced to simply invoke WP:NOR. The conclusion of bias isn't reliably sourced, or even reasonably inferred from any available, reliable evidence.

In my view, a good editor can see imbalance, or lack of neutrality, in an article or set of articles, and if they choose to fail to assume good faith, they can conclude that editor bias is a reason for it. That's non-ideal, but perhaps tolerable, so far -- people are people, and people have bad faith. But to go from there to assuming, without reliable evidence, that this bias is common everywhere in Wikipedia, and to organize a WikiProject devoted to countering it, seems like throwing both WP:NPOV and WP:AGF to the ground and trampling on them. When this is done on the basis of the sex and race of the editors, as is done in WP:CSB and WP:GS, it seems doubly troubling and odious. Perhaps it's done with the best of intentions. My goal isn't to gauge intentions, it's to gauge whether the projects are compatible with Wikipedia's values. So far, based on my reading of those values, and the reaction I've gotten from editors in those projects when I inquire as to their basic assumptions, it seems to me that the Projects are not compatible with those values. I am, however, open to be convinced otherwise. Are you open to be convinced otherwise? It is difficult to determine if you are, given the three times now you have given a flawed interpretation of my position or a response that does not address my questions, followed by a demand for me to stop responding.

I've made myself clear on this several times. If you're going to repeatedly demand that I silently tolerate what I currently view as a stain on Wikipedia, please at the very least take more care in avoiding misrepresenting my position, as that would aid me greatly in complying with that demand. Blackworm (talk) 18:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

If you believe that WP:CSB is fundamentally flawed, then you are welcome to open an RFC or an MFD. However, this endless petty sniping at the project is tendentious and disruptive.

You are still playing word games, arguing over petty semantics such as whether the German research on contributors is WP:OR, and ignoring some simple statistical checks which can be done on wikipedia.

I have wasted enough time trying to engage you in discussion, and at this point I find that the way you shift your position when challenged or resort to pedantic word games is a form of trolling, and I don't like wasting time with trolls. (Your post is a classic piece of trolling: accuse everyone else of evil things, shift your position around about, and then accuse people of misrepresenting you as you jump from one position to another; there is a long tradition of this stuff on usenet, and you would get on well there)

So, it's your choice. Are you going to continue trolling, or are you going to put your theories to the test by opening an open an RFC or an MFD?

Either way, don't reply here unless it is to post a link to an RFC or an MFD. Anything else will probably be deleted. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:20, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm disgusted with your repeated unfounded accusations of malice. How dare you? Do you really want me to start treating you with the same utter disrespect you have shown me?

I will continue to address this issue as I see fit, since you have absolutely no basis for demanding otherwise. Clearly it will not involve any more effort explaining my position to you, as you've shown your complete unwillingness to engage me in that discussion. Blackworm (talk) 19:35, 24 March 2008 (UTC)