Talk:Sexism

anthropological linguistics

I removed the commentary under anthropological linguistics. It referred to theories of natural language systems by referencing the 'West' and then turned to a comparison of China's economic restructuring in the present. I am not a linguist or a historian and so the author may want to return and clarify or restate 'their' original work.

The view of the radical feminists is, in my opinion, absurd. We should remember here that sexism can go both ways. WojPob personally regards feminists as sexist to certain degree.

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Is there any difference between the terms "sexism" and "sexual discrimination"? I'm aiming to set the latter to redirect to the former, but I'm not sure if they are exactly the same thing. --Stephen Gilbert

I added the redirect. I also changed the intro - the previous definition wasn't reflected in most dictionaries, and was somewhat at odds with the way I've used and seen the term used. See definitions. Martin

NPOV ISSUES

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The language section states some opinions as facts:

"Language plays a part in sexism" There is no agreement as to whether or not any commonly availible langues cause sexism or are caused by sexism.

See Against the theory of sexist language

"it is disputed whether certain language causes sexism or sexism causes certain language"

This is ambiguously worded. It's not clear whether the author is saying the dispute is over whether one is true or the other is true, or over whether or not either are true at all.

Blackcats 20:10 UTC, 8 Feb 2005

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okxj7

a view of differences between men and women AS GROUPS

There's a view expoused by evolutionary biologist Helena Cronin [1] that men and women, as groups, are substantially different. This means that when we look at traits of the groups, such as representation in a particular occupation, we should expect to see differences. However, this does not mean that a particular person has to have masculine or feminine traits. I have the impression that this is what was meant by the third definition of sexism in the article, but it isn't really clear. Should we reword the third definition or add a fourth definition? AdamRetchless 00:04, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Cultural perception

Typical Asian and Middle Eastern cultures believe sexism (as viewed by Westerners) is an acceptable practice, although this is in the process of changing. Asians are Westernising and their societies increasingly treat women with more respect, giving the women the same liberty to as they give men, and discarding practices that may have been deemed inappropriate by the West. I'm thinking, that because such cultures may be "perceived" as sexism, perhaps it deserves a standing section in the article. If we add the section, the article will be more complete.

Negative discrimination?

Sexism is negative discrimination against people based on their assumed or presumed sexual identity.

What is the point of the qualifier "negative"? Dictionary.com simply says "Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women." anthony (see warning) 01:19, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The neologism "positive discrimination" has come to apply whenever there is a distinct preference of women over men, or of blacks over whites, or homosexuals over heterosexuals. In a way, it means "when a minority discriminates against majorities", although women can't reasonably be described as a minority. As a term it is closely related to "political correctness" and "affirmative action", in that it describes a preferred treatment of a group of people to compensate for real or imagined wrongs in the past. It does express itself in things like women's quotas (despite the fact that there are way more female elementary school teachers than male ones), or female-only libraries (is that like white-only schools?) or other such things. It's an oxymoron, really. In a land where everyone it to be considered equal, you simply cannot demand better treatment based on your sex, race or sexuality. --TheOtherStephan 16:07, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Sexism and Homosexuality

In my opinion it is a violation of the NPOV principle to only quote D.A. Miller on why male homosexuality is less accepted than lesbianism.

Miller bends over backwards to prove that even where men are obviously treated worse, it is still misogyny. In my opinion the explanation is way simpler than what Miller concocts. Recall the widespread and obviously sexist notion of "fairer sex" and "uglier sex". Based on that notion, when a woman is intimate with another woman, it is perceived as the creation of an exclusive sphere of pureness uncontaminated by the "ugliness" of males. OTOH, two men getting intimate are seen as rejects who were deemed unworthy of access to that elevated sphere. Of course some men's fantasies driven by emotional masochism do play a role in the creation and perpetuation of this thought pattern, but I would argue that feminist man-hating propaganda is the main suspect. Note there was none of the latter in ancient Greece, a society 120% patriarchal and unambiguously male-supremacist but with no problems accepting male homosexuality.

But the section of the article is not about explanations of homophobia - it is about the relationship between homophobia and sexism. So quoting only Miller's theory does not imply that that is the only theory which seeks to explain homophobia, and so doesn't violate NPOV -- VoluntarySlave

Yes, the section is about relationship between sexism and homophobia, but it is also about explanations of homophobia, precisely because Miller and other quoted gender theorists explain homophobia with sexism. But there is a problem with their explanation. It is biased. They attribute homophobia solely to men's anti-female sexism, while I demonstrate that it can also be attributed to the society's anti-male sexism. Gender theorists seem to imply, and certainly they assume, that only men can be sexist. This is in itself a sexist position. Therefore it does violate NPOV to only quote gender theorists on the issue. -- Szczepan Hołyszewski

Miller bends over backwards- arf! arf! quercus robur

moving "Relation of sexism with homophobia" to Sexualism

I feel that this section should be moved to sexualism. (1) Sexism is about discrimination based on sex and gender while Sexualism is about discrimination based on sexual-orientation. (2) Sexualism could further addresses the subtle differences in homophobia of male-male, homophobia of female-female, and biphobia. 3Laws 20:11, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

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where did the ideas of the "fairer sex" and the "uglier sex" (not oppposing ideas, by the way) come from in the first place? As you mention ancient Greece, I'll also add that in that society the male form was considered the ideal, and that it is that fact, rather than the lack of "feminist man-hating propaganda" that contributed to the acceptance of male homosexuality. Male homosexuality was thought of as the ideal sexual act, because of the assumed superiority in mind, spirit, and form of the male. Heterosexual acts were seen as desirable only for procreation. When and why did the idea of the male form as the ideal change? Certainly well before the rise of feminist thought. It has its roots in Judeo-Christian ideology and the cementing of traditional gender roles, and male homosexuality represents within that context an emasculation, which is extremely undesirable. 65.95.25.34 07:41, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Lack of citations.

There are some provocative claims, like at least the one about sexual intercourse being for men's fun alone. --Thomi 11:28, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the whole article has a very OR feel about it. Can anybody improve it, or think of anybody who can? --Guinnog 22:55, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry

I apologize for the multiple rollbacks - I'm getting used to VandalProof and hit extra buttons inadvertently. -- Mike Straw 13:29, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Ambiguity in article name

Sexism also means another belief stating that being sexy means being superior, which is not mentioned in this article. --Deryck C. 05:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe that is covered in forcing a limited notion of feminity onto females. "Being sexy means being superior" is one such limited notion of feminity. It does worth mentioning somewhere in the body of the article. 3Laws 18:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Poor writing

Has anyone else noticed that certain portions of the article look to have been written by someone with a somewhat limited understanding of English verb conjugations? I have come across the word "has" used in place of "have" and other subsequent problems in conjugation directly related to those mistakes in the article. It really doesn't make much sense as other information on the page seems fine, and it is odd that someone could write so much else correctly, but just have a problem with those few very common verbs. I also can't see why anyone would vandalize an article by just slightly altering a few words. I did fix a few of these errors, but I would like to propose that someone look into correcting any more of these mistakes. Blinutne 03:59, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out my mistakes. I changed two more. 3Laws 09:46, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Please edit on new portions

Reverted edits by Kirbytime (talk) to last version by Lulujannings; Sexism and sexual intercourse has been edited to Sexism#Sexual_intercourse, Sexiam and pornography has been edited to Sexism#Pornography, Relation of sexism with homophobia has been edited to Homophobia#Sexist_beliefs; please don't mix portions of old article with new and directly edit on the new portions. 3Laws 09:39, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what you're talking about. When I saw the article, it ended right when it said this: "It has been argued that language plays a par". That's it, no references, no external links, nothing. I used the history of the article to recycle what was originally there. And when you reverted me here[2], you reverted it back to the "It has been argued that language plays a par" stage. And then you reverted yourself and reinserted what I recycled. I'm not entirely sure what you're telling me now. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 06:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

deleted paragraph

I deleted the following paragraph from the Pornography section of the article:

While women are affected and have sexism because of pornography, men also get sexism. Men in the porn industy are treated like objects. Now men, in general are treated like objects. Especially in the porn industry.

While i agree with what appears to be the gist of the statement (that men are also subject to sexism and objectification), the paragraph is poorly written to the point of being nonsensical. It also offers no sources. ~ lav-chan @ 02:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

POV and balance check: Added related forms of sexism

Content edited:

Sexism can refer to subtly different beliefs or attitudes:

• The belief that one sex is superior to or more valuable than the other;
• The belief that one gender is superior to or more valuable than the other;
• Female chauvinism or male chauvinism
• The attitude of misogyny (hatred of females) or misandry (hatred of males); as well as
• The attitude of imposing a limited and/or false notion of masculinity (gender) on males (sex) and a limited and/or false notion of femininity (gender) on females (sex).

I added the content so that ALL forms of sexism are accounted for here. In misandry please note Nathanson and Young make a host of well-explained assertions that "ideological" feminism is reverse sexist based on blatantly biased, gynocentric and misandric usages of the term 'gender'. Therefore I added 'gender' as a form of sexism here.

I added "'false' notion" because many authors have shown that extreme ideological 'constructs' of 'gender' (as being ALL nurture and no nature) are patently false despite their wide usage by 'oppression'-feminists otherwise. I would be glad to include references here but for some reason there is no references section on this article. For one of many independent authors' statements about these 'gender' falsehoods I refer other editors to Legalizing Misandry: From Public Shame to Systemic Discrimination against Men; Paul Nathanson and Katherine K. Young, McGill-Queen's University Press, Montreal, 2006; ISBN 0-7735-2862-8 (drop in editor) 128.111.95.147 02:13, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Examples of Sexism

What about some concrete examples of sexism. Much of the article seems a little abstract.

I'm thinking of cases were say woman scientists or authors are compared only with other women scientists/authors, not with scientists, or authors as a whole; where visitors to a lab will list all the men with PhDs as Dr Surname, and all the women with PhDs as Firstname Surname. Where men just don't give as much credit to something a women says compared to something a man says; the scientist at a talk by Ben Barres who turned to his neighbour and said ' that Ben Barres is so much better than his sister' when in fact the 'sister' was Ben before his transsexual operation. Perhaps something on the line of a 'spotters guide to sexism around you'. Of course something like this needs lots of reference which I don't have on me. ChristineD 01:42, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I suggest a glance at misandry and Nathanson and Youngs books on reverse-sexist forms of man-hate for many examples of one form of sexism. (drop in editor) 71.102.254.163 00:52, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Reverse-sexism is a misnomer. Being a sexist is not about offending women, its about offending any person just because of their sex. You can be a man and be sexist against men, becuase it is a discourse - way of thinking and speaking. ChristineD while I have seen such instances of that kind of sexism, any references to sexist beavious must be sourced and cited for WP:V materials. If you have some sources like this add them--Cailil 20:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Merge

Sexual discrimination already redirects here, so it seems sensible for sex discrimination to do likewise. Suggest merge. MisfitToys 23:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Merged as a Law section. Sex Discrimination was short anyway. If more paragraphs are added for each country and this article becomes to long in the future, then we can always split it. 3Laws 03:34, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Question

Could someone comment on the impact of the continued use of "mankind" to mean "humankind" and its impact on sexist views (and clarity: eg. "Mankind means mankind, unless it means mankind") - and the rationale for continuing its use over humankind. Also, the impact of a "father" view of god, rather than a "father and mother" view of god, not its history etc., but just in terms of how that might impact current sexist thinking. Just thought these might relate to the sexism entry and interested to see if anyone thought they were relevant enough items to include.Optim2007 11:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Redundant sentence

Sexism can refer to subtly different beliefs or attitudes:

• The belief that one sex is superior to or more valuable than the other;
• The belief that one gender is superior to or more valuable than the other;

It's the same exact sentence. Going to remove the first line, since gender is the proper term. 70.118.94.61 00:25, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I have to half-disagree with you here. Though there's a lot of contentious argument over the exact distinction, "sex" and "gender" are not equivalent terms. That's the half-disagreement. The half-agreement is that there was no need for the two to be entered as separate sentences on separate lines; "The belief that one sex or gender is superior to or more valuable than the other;" would do quite nicely. --7Kim 23:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC) Done. --7Kim 23:49, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Seeking consensus on acronym ...

It's all one to me whether we use LGBT, GLBT, LGBTIQ, GLBTIQ, or LGBTIQQGQSAAPKP, but I do believe we should strike a consensus on one and agree to stick with it throughout the article. Throughout Wikipedia and indeed throughout the larger community, LGBT seems to prevail, but there are other arguments to be made. --7Kim 23:40, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Discrimination WikiProject

Looking for people to join a proposed Discrimination WikiProject for discrimination articles: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Discrimination - Keith D. Tyler ¶ 21:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

More information about misandry than misogyny

Am I the only one who finds it odd that there is more information on the sexism page about misandry than misogyny? --70.173.47.6 07:48, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, some editors are so concerned that "feminists" or "anti-male editors" will try to ruin wikipedia that they go overboard in requiring "equal treatment"; we end up with what is clearly a disproportionate emphasis on misandry etc. IMO it is best to keep working on the article, acknowledging both theoretical symmetries and historical/political realities. --lquilter 15:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

That certainly isn't the case now. though I think there is a case for it. In Western culture misandry is very much the discrimination that dare not speak its name. Where I wonder are the Ministers for Men, the Men's Studies courses, the TV documentaries about misandry (which is rampant in the English speaking world), the healthcare programmes for men, Men's drop in centres etc etc.? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.20.18.155 (talk) 17:44, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, it is clear there is much more information on sexism against women than sexism against men in this article. This is clearly seen by the fact the "sexism against females" section is about three to four times the size of the "sexist against males" section. Some, like Lquilter and the anon user, apparently would like to see this imbalance greaten, reflecting their view that sexism against males is a tiny fraction of sexism. Whether they call themselves "feminists" or "anti-male editors" or not, the fact remains that sexism against men is a taboo subject many would like to suppress. Blackworm (talk) 21:32, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

approaching sexism

While recognizing the talk page isn't about the subject, it's impossible to look at the talk here and not see the questions begged by the subject as it's presented on Wikipedia. The substantive talk (not intending to demean those with grammatical or syntactical concerns, but to differentiate from them) here largely reflects efforts to "balance" the subject: to neutralize the linguistic influence, to identify men objectified by porn, to decide whether gay men or lesbians are the more oppressed, and so on. "Balancing" necessitates diminishing one side to strengthen another; it's akin to neutrality. And, while a value in language choices, neutrality is not a value in comprehending a subject. Take a look at the entry on "racism": it starts from a series of field-specific definitions. Here, under "sexism," we have someone's generic definition sketched in at the top, but we actually start from categories (men, women, trans), dividing the topic in such a way that we are led into debates about balance and neutrality. My vote is to scrap this page and replace it with working definitions, and let the definitions lead to the explanations, variations, and real-world weighting.Realleslie (talk) 23:48, 24 February 2008 (UTC)