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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Craft37by (talk | contribs) at 03:41, 5 August 2018 (→‎List of ungrounded removings (constantly replenishing)). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Concerned with edits made by other user

Hi. I am concerned with the edits made by this user. There were many run-ins with this user in the past by me and other editors due to the addition of fringe theories by him and his unwillingness to discuss the matter, which resulted in a block for edit warring. Since then this user pops up once in a while by trying to add the same or almost the same (mainly rephrased) content with the addition of new fringe theories. I am not sure what to do next, because I do not have time for any altercations with him, but I know that he would just continue to go the same path. Any advice would be appreciated since dealing with him is tiring. – Sabbatino (talk) 15:58, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a link for the person you are discussing. The User:Craft37by has only made about 20 edits since becoming active again on 2 June 2018 so you should be able to mention some edits that concern you. Their WP:ARBEE alert has expired so I'm issuing a new one. EdJohnston (talk) 16:28, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Those claims would be that Belarus it the "real Lithuania", Belarusians are "real Lithuanians", Lithuania is "Samogitia", Lithuanians are "Samogitians", Belarusian language is the "real Lithuanian language" among others. These POV views are approved by a very small number of scholars, which is know as Litvinism. I have reverted all such additions, but I believe there will be a new edit war (given the past altercations). In addition, the grammar is very poor and some of the translated statements are different from the original due to user's poor English understanding. – Sabbatino (talk) 16:53, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I absolutly opened to discuss the matter and complained edits SPECIFICALLY. I sub-cline edits with references. I understand that it might be sensitive for some nationalists but I believe that Wikipedia is about sharing all aspects of subject. (talk) Craft37by (talk) 16:59, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Craft37by: Wikipedia is about what the majority scholars say/write about the subject and not what the minority thinks about it. This is not about nationalism at all, but about historical accuracy. Very few scholars acknowledge the statements that you are trying to add or keep re-adding. On top of that this is not the place to try and force some fringe theories on everyone. Misinterpretations is another concern. This is not the map of Samogitia as you are trying to claim. The Diocese of Samogitia is completely different from Samogitia just like the New York metropolitan area is completely different from New York City or New York. In addition, adding maps that do not improve the page is bad practice. – Sabbatino (talk) 18:52, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Just want to point out that that content in the Vilna Governorate page was restored by the user in question and I again reverted it. – Sabbatino (talk) 18:52, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
About page Samogitia - this page struggled without any colorful info and I added those maps from another Wiki pages, f.e. Samogitian uprisings. But I see that you deleting only mine edits. I suppose it's not about accuracy but about vandalism and chasing me personally.

About Vilna Governorate page - how can you mention majority when just added the original historical documents and maps? Add something else if it's exist! Just added the original quote from 1835 book of M. Ross (of Durham.) which is in open source in Google Books: https://books.google.com/books?id=fqxDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA41 I only can understand you deletion as prejudice. You dislike that in 19 century historic wrote phrases like 'The province of Wilna contains the north part of Lithuania' ? Please found some info where they wrote something different. I believe that Wikipedia is about sharing ORIGINAL documents and primary sources - not about deleting everything that not fits into a certain dogma. I forced to start the complain on you, Sabbatino. Craft37by (talk) 19:06, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Craft37by, if modern scholars agree with you, this is something you should be able to prove by citations. Your own personal opinion as to which of the 19th-century publications are relevant should not control the article content. EdJohnston (talk) 19:10, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
EdJohnson, I don't agree that it's about sharing my personal opinon. Only added original maps and quotes from proven authors of contemporaries, including from existing articles on wikipedia to which there were no questions.. If we want to talk about modern time - proven specialist of Eastern Europe history Norman Davies released the book about Grand Duchy of Lithuania few years ago and this book totally dedicated to the history of Belarus. Please check the examples in open access, I mean this one https://www.amazon.com/Litva-Lithuania-Selection-Vanished-Kingdoms-ebook/dp/B00BCUJ1XE Craft37by (talk) 19:52, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You still fail to understand what is written to you. A user needs to be competent in order to edit English Wikipedia, which is not the case with your edits. Most of the text in English added by yourself is hard to understand or is incomprehensible. Personal synthesis is another concern. You cannot just mix 3 sources and create some theory, which is not supported by neither of them. I can understand that you are trying to add something in good faith, but most of the time it is just a personal opinion or an opinion from some relatively unknown publisher who satisfies only a small amount of people. The content of the page is based on what most scholars say about the subject and now what very few people think. – Sabbatino (talk) 05:43, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Аgain I am convincing of your bias and lies. Previously you expressed a claim to the content - now you are expressing a claim to the grammar of content. However, in deleted content there are also the original fragments and maps - the PRIMARY SOURCES of CONTEMPORARIES and NATIVE SPEAKERS (examples above). Removing it absolutely unjust and harmful. You are just desperately looking for reasons for censorship - but all your arguments are illogical. You do not seek to fix the content if even somewhere mistake made but delete whole fragments of article entirely. According to your edits, I realized that you are deleting everything that contradicts Soviet historiography. Seems you are just a liar in service of Moscow propaganda. Wikipedia should be protected from harmful activities which you do! Craft37by (talk) 18:15, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Craft37by: First of all, I am not Russian and I do not approve with their or Soviet historiographical views. Secondly, you should refrain from making personal attacks, which you are making by calling me a vandal and troll among others. I already wrote that an editor needs to be competent in order to edit in English Wikipedia (or any other Wikipedia), which is not the case in your situation. – Sabbatino (talk) 10:19, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@EdJohnston: It appears that this user started editing, while logged out (restored content in Belarus page). And it appears that instead of trying to discuss and understand what is written to him, he turned to personal attacks, accusations and just wants to make a point in any way possible, which implies that he is in the wrong place. – Sabbatino (talk) 10:19, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just want to inform you that this user again started adding unsourced, WP:POV and WP:OR content, which looks more like his own opinion and is also blog-like, to pages regarding Lithuania and Belarus. For example, this addition, where he again tries to claim that Lithuanian language is not Lithuanian language. – Sabbatino (talk) 13:32, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Sabbatino: Craft37by has made no more edits with their account since 19 July. There have been no IP edits at Belarus since 11 July. Let me know if you see any continuing problem. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 13:35, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I will inform you if this continues. On a side note, it appears that the user in question has moved to other language Wikipedias and started adding exactly the same content, but most of his edits were instantly reverted. – Sabbatino (talk) 12:00, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just want to inform you that the user in question is back and keeps adding the same content again. The Belarus page was protected due to that user's actions and only administrators can edit it at this point. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:43, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]


New article

Hi EdJohnston. This article was created today, by the same editor who created it before (it was deleted for notability issues [1]. Should this article be nominated for deletion again? The said editor edits only about Phoca, might be same kind of COI? Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:02, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your note. I deleted as G4 and salted Phoca Cart since it's the second recreation. EdJohnston (talk) 18:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Blocked editor back editing as an IP

Hi EdJohnston. It would seem that User:Zaner25 (the "RelayBall" editor), whom you recently blocked, is evading the block by editing under the IP address 96.61.0.66 - see contribs. Regards. DH85868993 (talk) 02:50, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Two pages are now semiprotected per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Zaner25. This may be sufficient. Let me know if the problem continues. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 13:27, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Will do. Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 20:58, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
He's back: [2] DH85868993 (talk) 11:17, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Souliotes

Skylax30 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Hi EdJohnston, I am pinging @NeilN: although they are on holiday until July 29. After the latest block expired, Skylax 30 created a new article with content that he did not manage to add to Souliotes. This makes the creation of it to practically be a continuation of Skylax30's warring on Souliotes. This is dishonest because community consensus is to not present some 19th century books as reliable sources about the Souliotes, and everyone except of Skylax30 has respected the agreement. During his block, the Souliotes topic was very stable, without disagreements or warring. Now that Skylax30's block expired, once again community consensus is disrespected. I do not plan to try to improve Souliotes anymore, because that topic is once again victim of stubborn disruption by only one editor. Two editors have already expressed their concern with the new article [3], [4]. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:52, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Skylax30 has created List of 18th - early 19th century sources on Souli and Souliotes. If you think it's a content fork of Souliotes you could make that observation. Perhaps the right thing is to nominate the new article for deletion. From a reading of User:Skylax30's comments at Talk:Souliotes#Request for comment on displaying 19th century sources he really wants to put the content *somewhere*. (Can we add limited material (few lines) from early 19th century sources? The text will not be commented or interpreted. Alternatively, if those sources are not accepted here, in which Wiki can they be included? It might take more experienced editors to remind him that sources are added to support statements that are to be included in articles. (User:NeilN closed the RfC as invalidly formed). If Skylax30 can come up with an assertion that he thinks is established by these sources, we could have an RfC on whether to include that assertion in the Souliotes article. Of course, the underlying problem is that the ethnic origin of the Souliotes is murky. If we are to come up with an appropriate compromise statement on their origins, it should be based on what current scholarly sources say, not the old ones from the 19th century. EdJohnston (talk) 21:12, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I was not expecting that I have to apologize for creating articles for WP. I thought this is my duty as wikipedian. Also, I am not aware of any category of knowledge (including bibliography) that is blacklisted from WP. Seriously now, I am not the only person around that likes to read the oldest sources available on any subject. This is the purpose of this article. If you find that that the list of sources contains any statement that should not be there, please commend in the talk page. The article is not done, and is open to all for corrections. Finally, I don't take as a personal attack the characterizations "dishonest" and "stuborn" above by Ktrimi. He probably thinks that he is the owner or guardian of the articles related to Souli. --Skylax30 (talk) 07:41, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The problem of Skylax30 practically is that they are giving too much importance to some 19th century accounts. The consensus is to use for the Souliotes only recent publications (20th and 21th century reliable sources). The Souliotes were a small and unimportant tribe, and they did nothing special. Nowadays they are used by Albanian and Greek nationalists for propaganda purposes, for asserting kind of "superiority" over each other. Hence, the history of Souliotes shows that many editors were blocked in the past due to disruptive editing on that article. The Souliotes article is a mess, and is far from having encyclopedic standards. On List of 18th - early 19th century sources on Souli and Souliotes, yes, I think I will open a deletion discussion in the few coming hours. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:58, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying that you spend your time on articles on an "unimportant tribe" ? --Skylax30 (talk) 07:41, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have some doubts about the notability of "19th century accounts on Souliotes", a topic of very little relevance to the modern world. I seriously doubt this page will be visited by anyone who isn't following Greek/Albanian controversies, of which this is not a very major one, i.e. the only reason it's relevant nowadays is there are some Albanians (the predictable types) who like to point out that some Greek national heroes (Markos Botzaris) might have some Albanian roots, and of course some Greeks (not all by any means, the predictable types, really) find this horrifying. Of course, this also raises questions about WP:POVFORK, which are very unfortunately not helped by the history between certain users involved...--Calthinus (talk) 14:36, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hi EdJohnston. After Skylax30 agreed on the stable version of the article, another editor emerged on the discussion, and is insisting to add content without consensus, based on their interpretation of some policies. What should we do now to avoid further conflicts on that article. I would say openening a RfC for a stable solution for the article is needed. If a RfC is opened, will someone neutral/uninvolved/admin close it? Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:32, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I did not agree on the "stable version" of the article Souliotes, as it has many problems (synth, unveriable claims etc). Simply, I was blocked while I was trying to improve it.--Skylax30 (talk) 08:00, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you believe that the discussion at Talk:Souliotes has reached a conclusion, why not state what you think it is? See the language of WP:DUE: Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. Has anyone listed the modern scholarly sources which give an opinion on this matter? EdJohnston (talk) 12:54, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The stable version informs on the lede that the Souliotes were bilingual, had Albanian origin and Greek identity. There is a "Historiography" sub-section that presents the views of several modern academics on the Souliotes. The majority of the sources there say that the Souliotes were an Albanian tribe and some others mixed one with mostly Greek identity. The matter is very difficult to be solved because academics are divided. Perhaps the most viable solution is to present the Souliotes as a tribe with mixed identity, and both "Greeks" and "Albanians" infoboxed be placed on the article or just keep the current consensus version and only "Greeks" infobox. I am open to suggestions via a RfC. All in all I think that the article should focus more on the culture and wars of the Souliotes than to their origin and ethnic identity. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:03, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You say The matter is very difficult to be solved because academics are divided.. Why you do not allow me to have this different view added to the article as well? Due to your reverts of my edits, the article now maintains only one academic view on the issue. I recommend you self-revert your actions otherwise I will have no option but bring this to NPOV noticeboard and add NPOV tag to the article. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 (talk ✉️ | contribs 📝) 13:11, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
EdJohnston, I do no understand why you felt the need to send me that notification on ARMBAC sactions but not to Ktrimi as well. To warn me for trying to restore NPOV content on the article, but leave out the editor who wants to maintain one-sided POV, gives me a real sour impression that you are picking sides on the dispute. I am dismayed. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 (talk ✉️ | contribs 📝) 13:20, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

ARMBAC alert is not a warning. I am aware of it as i have placed that template on the talk page of several esitors lately, so EdJohnston does not need to notify me. I would suggest to you and myself to not redirect the discussion from the content dispute. You think that the view that the Souliotes had Greek origin does not need consensus and the view that they had Albanian identity does need consensus? You said on the talk page of the article that "Albanian" infobox should not be added without consensus and your content does not need consensus. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:31, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ktrimi, you are asking that on the lead, only the one view is present, the view which you support. The other view is completely absent from the same section even though among the world's academics, there are different views on this matter. How is that NPOV? Currently, the article article welcomes the readers with a very particular academic POV, that the Souliotes might have been Albanians, before the readers are sent further down the article just to find out that they might also been Greeks. To maintain a select POV on the Lead, even though you have yourself acknowledged to EdJonhston the difficult background regarding these people's ethnicity, to me stinks as a attempt to keep a certain POV on the lead, which is the most important section in an article and through which the first impressions are given to the readers. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 (talk ✉️ | contribs 📝) 14:04, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. I said on the talk page that there is a consensus to keep on the lede only "Greeks" infobox, and that the Souliotes had Albanian origin and Greek identity, as previous discussions determined that this is the mainstream view of scholars. If you need to add alternative views to the lede, you must add all of them, not only what to do like the most. I told you you can freely add your content, provided that you add "Albanians" infobox as well. To sum up, either the lede should mention the most accepted view or it should mention all of them. Try to not modify your comments after you post them , as EdJohnston is receiving many talk page notifications. Sorry Ed :) Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:11, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If reverting continues at Souliotes it may be necessary to put the article under full protection. The editors who have reverted more than once in the past week include User:Ktrimi991 and User:SilentResident. EdJohnston (talk) 15:22, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think that there will be more reverting on the article. I surely will not revert anymore. I just want the article to be in line with consensus, and everyone feel that their contribution is properly respected. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:26, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ed -- it will be better for all involved if you put the article under full protection for a bit (maybe a week) anyways. Nothing productive is happening there. The current discord between SR and Ktrimi has little to do with the Souliotes page -- it need not be a casualty. Some people can take offense at words, and talking about sensitive matters in English (a second language for all involved) can have bad side effects. I am not familiar with wiki policy on article locks but my common sense says this is an article of little importance to most readers (hence, no collateral damage), while locking it can help contain their current dispute. --Calthinus (talk) 15:39, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Too much fuss about an "unimportant tribe", isn't it Ed? Now the protectors of certain POV want to delete the article with the 19th century sources on Souliotes. Good material for a case study.--Skylax30 (talk) 08:00, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi EdJohsnton. Calthinus seems to be right. It seems the disputes on Souliotes yesterday and today is unrelated to Souliotes. After an editor was warned by me on 3RR, they added content to the lede of Souliotes, countering with the consensus they reached three years ago with other editors. They claim that the scholarship disputes the Souliotes' origin amd ethnicity, and still they insist that only "Greeks" infobox should be on the article. Since their ethnicity is disputed, why should only "Greeks" infobox should be on the article? This EdJohnston is a breach of rules, much stronger that the case of Skylax30. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:56, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The origin of the Souliotes remains disputed (there is not only the purely Albanian view) as new reference provided by third parties. I won't object an Albanians infobox as soon as Ktrimi provides evidence that they identified/or are classified as Albanians in contemporary times (Ottoman era/19th century).13:05, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
You added content that their ethnicity is disputed among scholars. Hence, it is disputed that they self-identified as Greeks. "Identity" is part of "Ethnicity" in English. I was OK with first position that a Greek identity is undisputed, but your recent addition shows that their Greek identity is not a general view of scholars. Either both infoboxes stay on the article, or both of them need to be removed. Alternatively, just revert yourself. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:10, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm ok without any iboxes in lede, however a Greeks box can stay in the after independence section, since they became Greek nationals that time.Alexikoua (talk) 13:34, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, because many sources listed at the Historiography section say that the Souliotes were an Albanian tribe, without saying that after Independence they became ethnically Greeks. The article after your change shows that that the Souliotes gained a Greek ethnicity is just a theory. Infobox "Greeks" is about ethnic Greeks, not about Greek citizens no matter their ethnicity. Otherwise Turks, Albanians, Pakistanis, Arabs etc would be there. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:38, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Stop playing with "theories" about "Albanian tribes", and go to the discussion of the article to see what Souliotes said and signed about themselves. As for the Albanian "nation" of the 1800, you have to prove that existed.--Skylax30 (talk) 06:28, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Single-purpose account deleting content at Bernardo de Gálvez

Hi, Ed. I'm having trouble with a single-purpose account removing content from the article, as well as replacing English WP wikilinks with links to articles on Spanish WP, as you can see from the article history. He refuses to leave an edit summary explaining these repeated removals, which as far as I can see are unnecessary anyway. Carlstak (talk) 17:33, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Any thoughts about this? Carlstak (talk) 19:25, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I notified User:Granitery of your complaint and invited them to respond. They may be well-intentioned but they do need to follow our local policies. EdJohnston (talk) 19:33, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Ed, I just saw your notice at Granitery's talk page. I've also left a comment on the article talk page. Carlstak (talk) 19:46, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Conclusion of ANI complaint

Hello. With all due respect I was amazed with your conclusion of the ANI complaint here. Both in the past and present complaints I had provided evidence of Stefka's disruptive editing against consensus. How can the complaint end without even a mild warning to the disruptive editor and instead a warning to me simply because I was calling a spade a spade with regards to MKO? --Expectant of Light (talk) 07:08, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Editing against consensus might be demonstrated by the result of formal dispute resolution, such as an WP:RFC. When there is no visible consensus, there is not much to go on. EdJohnston (talk) 12:19, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Concerned with edits made by user Sabbatino

Greetings, EdJohnston. I want to report systematic unreasonable deletion of the content I added. I forced to seek for administration protection and support to avoid edit wars in providing wide coverage of the history of the Eastern Europe region. I believe that with you help situation will be improved.

User Sabbatino creates a self-centered point of view around this principality according to him only a known pattern, removing any information that contradicts the occupational ideology of pan-Russism around Belarus state - without arguments or even trying to start any discussion in talk page. He deliberately belittles the role of the Belarusian ethnos and all that concerns the modern territory of Belarus, which was part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania for centuries.

His regular complains for "litvinism additions" which is very similar to the Kremlin experts vocabulary, for which I have a bright example.

In 2016 Director of the Russian Institute for Strategic Studies retired Lt. Gen. Reshetnikov said to belarusian Radio Liberty literally this: "... At independence, do not declare themselves as part of "litvinsky" history. (in belarusian: ня трэба аб’яўляць сябе часткаю «ліцьвінскай» гісторыі.) You do not want to be proud of Dostoevsky and Pushkin, and you want to be proud of Mickiewicz? It's just awful ...". Link is: https://www.svaboda.org/a/raszetnikau-havoryc/28192683.html .

Later this interview released the scandal at the level of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs: https://www.svaboda.org/a/28190866.html (Belarusian Foreign Ministry expressed protest to Russia in connection with the statement by the Director of the Russian Institute for Strategic Studies).

So I have some reasons to suspect user Sabbatino in cooperating with ideological department of russian special agencies.

Ed, please let me have this tread for possible feature updates because this situation continues to happen again.. Thank you. Craft37by (talk) 03:37, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

List of ungrounded removings (constantly replenishing)

Craft37by (talk) 03:37, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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