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July 26

Re. Lyrics and song meanings

Are lyrics a good enough source in themselves for referencing purported song meanings? I ask because the song for which I'd like to provide a reference ("I'm on the Lamb but I Ain't No Sheep" from Blue Öyster Cult's self-titled debut album) is pretty unambiguous in its meaning. The article states that the song is "about a fugitive pursued by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police"; the lyrics can be found here, and it's pretty clear what they mean. Would this be a suitable link to use as a reference?

Also, does anyone know where I can find references for other assertions being made in that subsection? I'd like to improve the article's quality, but I don't know where I could look. Kurtis ^(talk) 10:19, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No, lyrics themselves are not a source to interpret the meanings of lyrics. The lyrics are a primary source. They can only be used to cite the actual content of the lyrics themselves (i.e quotes). Reliable sources which themselves discuss the meaning of the lyrics would be a secondary source and are required in order for a Wikipedia article to itself discuss the meaning. --Jayron 32 15:39, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that's the party line. But WP:NORULES and WP:BOLD also apply. I say OP can feel free to improve the article however they wish, understanding that said improvements will likely last longer if they are supported by secondary RS. This is related to the perennial debates on deletionism vs. inclusionism: I personally would rather have primary cites for songs than no description of what they are about. In this case, I don't think OP is making any interpretations that are beyond the scope of understanding ordinary phrases in English. Here is a secondary source [1] discussing BOC lyrics, but honestly it's not that reliable, and I'm not terribly certain that there is a highly reliable interpretation of the lyrics of this song. We have articles on on the lamb, and Canadian Mounted Police, and IMO it's not that terrible if one of our editors uses their brain to describe 45 year old rock song. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:39, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, the phrase is on the lam. Bored sheep herders whose wives don't meet their needs may be "on the lamb", but fugitives from the law are "on the lam". --Jayron 32 17:52, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"On the lam(b) but ain't no sheep" would be a play on words. What it specifically refers to, if it's not made plain in the lyrics, would require a secondary source. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:10, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I think it is a bit of wordplay, but that's not really necessary to get in to for a basic description of the what the song is about. "On the lamb" is a common (mis)spelling of "on the lam", it is the spelling used in the title of the song, and it is also popular enough that we have a redirect. I personally don't think it is at all a stretch to say the song is about a person who is a fugitive from the RCMP, and in this specific case, I'd invoke Wikipedia:You_don't_need_to_cite_that_the_sky_is_blue. Jayron is of course correct in his statement of best practices and official policy, but I also wanted to share an alternative perspective. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:31, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know the song. Does it say anything specificially about a fugitive or the Mounties? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:33, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The lyrics start by mentioning the Mounties, but it's not at all clear that it's about some specific fugitive, nor even that it's literally about the Mounties. I especially like where they mark one section "incomprehensible". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:54, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That was my thinking as well - lyrics seem to me as a primary source. The only problem is that I can't really find any decent second-party sources to add as references for the article, which is frustrating. Kurtis ^(talk) 01:06, 27 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I had a brief look too, and that blog post was about the best I could find. If you really want to do it right, you can probably find some stuff in real-paper books (possibly using google books). For example the Encyclopedia of Heavy metal tells me that Sandy Pearlman or Richard Meltzer might have written about these songs/lyrics in some detail, so you could try that route. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:05, 27 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

July 27

Number of baseball games played by Chris Sale

I know almost nothing about baseball, so be gentle. The one thing I do know is that the season is 162 games long. With this in mind, is it normal for Chris Sale to have played (started?) in only 114 games since his debut in 2010? To my untutored eye, it seems a low number for someone who appears to be so highly rated. Many thanks. Dalliance (talk) 12:33, 27 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

First and foremost, it's important to note that games played for pitchers (such as Sale) do not align with other positions. A pitcher can be reasonably expected to play, while healthy, in about 1/4 of their team's games, give or take. This number is frequently higher for relief pitchers and lower for starting pitchers, owing to the higher number of innings per appearance typically pitched by the starter.

So, Sale was first called up to the majors in 2010, but that was a late-season call-up. Let's toss it out rather than trying to pro-rate. He appeared in 58 games as a reliever in 2011. That was the fewest appearances of the Sox' five primary relievers that year, but all were within 10 appearances of each other. So, I think that qualifies as being normal usage. From 2012 on, he's been a starter (note, on the first ref, that "G" for games played tracks very closely with "GS" for games started), and has started about 30 games a year. That matches up well against the more-or-less five-pitcher rotation that the Sox (and most MLB teams) have used over that span -- their most-heavily started pitcher has started no more than 33 games in a season during the relevant period. That also counts as normal usage.

Lastly, we can contrast against other top-tier pitchers. Going through the list of Cy Young Award winners provides a good benchmark; I selected Clayton Kershaw because he's a multiple winner during Sale's career. From 2012-2016, Kershaw has appeared in 142 games. Sale has appeared in 136 during that span. So his usage checks out there against one of the consensus best pitchers in the game, too. — Lomn 14:22, 27 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just to elaborate a bit, baseball players are basically grouped into two categories: position players and pitchers. For a position player to play (almost) every game in the season is reasonably common (see, for example, Cal Ripken Jr., who played in a record 2,632 consecutive games). Pitchers cannot play every inning the way a position player could; the physical strain makes that impossible. Starting pitchers (i.e. the ones who start the games and rack up the most innings) typically start one fifth of their team's games at most and only pitch for seven or eight innings each game. Relief pitchers (like Sale) can pitch in more games than a starting pitcher could, but at the "cost" of not pitching so many innings per game. But even the relief pitchers could not play every game - the physical strain on their arms would result in injury. Matt Deres (talk) 16:28, 27 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The situation has evolved as a function of the schedule. In the early days of the National League in the 1870s, a team had just one regular pitcher, but they only played about twice a week, so it worked out about the same as it does today, with two or three days' rest. (They also had to deliver underhanded.) By the 1880s, the schedule had expanded to the point where they needed two regular pitchers. Squads were limited to 12, and substitution was limited. The pitcher with the "off" day would often play right field. And pitchers were allowed to throw overhand. By the 1890s, the schedule and the squad size had expanded to modern levels. Pitchers no longer played in other positions, as a general rule. But they also pitched full games when possible. That's how Cy Young ended up with more than 500 wins and more than 300 losses. Babe Ruth began as a pitcher, and his games-played reflected the phenomenon the OP asked about. But once his extraordinary batting came to the fore, they started playing him more often. He eventually said "enough" to the pitching and became a full-time outfielder, playing pretty much every day. After that, he only pitched a few times (and won them all, by the way). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:50, 27 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Superb answers. Thank you all very much indeed. Dalliance (talk) 21:49, 27 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

July 28

Credits of "The Player" (1992)

Hello, can anybody tell why the credits of The Player contain the entry "Nick Nolte: Cher" – as if Nick Nolte played Cher, although both make cameo appearances and, of course, this would generally make no sense at all. Could it just be a simple mistake?--Hubon (talk) 00:46, 28 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure what you are talking about. This section The Player (film)#Cast quite clearly lists them separately and as playing "themselves" which fits their cameo roles. I checked the edit history for any recent vandalism that might have caused this and there is none. MarnetteD|Talk 01:13, 28 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think he means the credits in the film itself, not the Wikipedia article. --Viennese Waltz 07:48, 28 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the explanation Viennese Waltz. I haven't seen the film in at least a decade and don't remember how the final credits are presented. If it lists all the cameos in a block it might appear in the manner that the OP mentions but that is just WP:SPECULATION on my part. MarnetteD|Talk 14:04, 28 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe the OP could upload a screen capture or point us to a youtube? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:32, 28 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot for your answers! Sorry, but I could not respond earlier... Indeed, I mean the credits within the movie itself! I've also been looking for a (legal) full online version, but I couldn't find one.--Hubon (talk) 20:35, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect just clumsy credits design. Punctuation is not normally used in film credits. The colon is being used here just as a separator.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 06:30, 1 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is very possible that the production company was trying to reduce the number of lines in the end credits to get below a certain line count. I am purposely avoiding a long-winded description of how end credits companies charge based on line count in the end credits, but I am willing to go into it if necessary. The end result will be nothing more than: 1) Many production companies outsource end credits. 2) The end credits companies have pricing models, which tend to be based on a line count. 3) If you exceed the line count for a certain price level, the cost goes up - so it is in your best interest to keep the line count below your cutoff. 209.149.113.4 (talk) 13:37, 1 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

July 29

Time Magazine cover referenced

Which Time Magazine cover is this webcomic[2] talking about? Crudiv1 (talk) 18:56, 29 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't read it as being about a specific cover. I read it as a joke that nobody actually buys Time Magazine. They just look at the cover. I assume you are assuming that the next joke (about Rocket League) is a continuation of the first joke. It is a series of short unrelated jokes. 209.149.113.4 (talk) 19:46, 29 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

July 30

Pretty Woman

Did sales and radio-plays of Oh, Pretty Woman change around the time of Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music, Inc. from what they'd been before the parody was released? Did they grow, shrink, or stay the same? 184.57.99.184 (talk) 00:05, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Looking for a song...

Hello. I am looking for a probably pretty famous and older song (maybe 70's or 80's) of which the lyrics contain phrases similar to Everybody wants this weather. Sunshine all day long. (Google was not much use to me so far.) I know, this "information" is very vague, but maybe someone yet knows what I mean. Regards--Hubon (talk) 00:28, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't suppose it's Blue Skies? Tevildo (talk) 21:53, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the suggestion, but unfortunately that's not what I was looking for.--Hubon (talk) 23:02, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

70s-80s. That makes it tough because "pop" music wasn't popular. Was it rock? Was it progressive rock? Was it glam rock? Was it disco? Was it punk? Was it California-pop rock? Was it early hard rock? Was it early metal? Was it country? Was it southern rock? You would have trouble picking a more turbulent time in popular music. It would help a great deal to have a starting point. 209.149.113.4 (talk) 12:36, 1 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming you've completely messed up the lyrics... It appears to be a song about southern California. There are many songs that claim southern California is sunny all the time (hence the phrase: It never rains in southern California). One such example is "I Love L.A." which has the lyrics: "Everybody's very happy/'Cause the sun is shining all the time/Looks like another perfect day". 209.149.113.4 (talk) 13:41, 1 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

July 31

Rachel Dawes played by Maggie Gyllenhaal. Not Katie Holmes

In the Batman film The Dark Knight, why was the character Rachel Dawes played by Maggie Gyllenhaal, rather than Katie Holmes? 81.145.108.28 (talk) 14:18, 31 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Because Gyllenhaal was hired for the part instead. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:47, 31 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Rachel Dawes article, Holmes "chose not to reprise the role". That's sourced to an article at slashfilm.com which says that "Holmes dropped out of the project earlier in the year", and mentions gossip that it was due to Tom Cruise's objections. Rojomoke (talk) 17:53, 31 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

August 1

The Waltons - Robert Wightman as John-Boy

In the 8th and 9th seasons and 1 movie sequel of The Waltons, why was John "John-Boy" Walton Jr. played by Robert Wightman, instead of Richard Thomas? 81.145.108.28 (talk) 15:06, 1 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]