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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Thincat (talk | contribs) at 07:56, 11 June 2021 (→‎Christian Saunders: rw a bit). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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10 June 2021

Christian Saunders

Christian Saunders (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

The nomination argument was Gets some mentions, but not enough in-depth coverage to pass WP:GNG. Five editors participated in the discussion. Two !voted delete. Three !voted keep, two of whom said there was enough coverage to pass WP:GNG (this gentleman, incidentally, headed a major organ of the UN and has been described in one article cited on the page as one of the most senior British officials of the UN). The closer, however, went with "delete", with the comment The "keep" opinions are weaker because they do not address the sourcing problems. But they did. It is an opinion that sourcing is not sufficient; it is an opinion that it is. There was no reason to give less weight to the arguments of the keep !voters, who were in the majority, given they had addressed the concerns of the nominator (and did not agree with them). With all due respect to the closer, this appears to be a supervote. It should have been a no consensus at worst, a keep at best. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:50, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse I think that was a reasonable close. The Keep comments focused on him being notable by virtue of holding certain positions. Two of them mentioned the GNG but they didn't provide any supporting evidence or argument ("Clearly enough sourcing to meet WP:GNG" and "Easily gets enough coverage in reliable independent sources to pass WP:GNG"). The debate was relisted with a request for the Keep side to point to specific sources, nobody did. And the OP seems to be ignoring the nominator in concluding the Keep side were in the majority (the debate was tied). Nor is it exactly obvious that the GNG is met based on the sources in the article. While the article did cite plenty of sources, almost all of them were published by the United Nations and therefore aren't independent. The only ones which don't originate with some part of the UN are [1] (doesn't mention him) and [2]. I'm not surprised the participants didn't think those constituted significant coverage. Hut 8.5 12:23, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn Yet another Sandstein supervote. It's not the closer's job to frame the debate, decide what issues are or are not vital and then make a casting vote. The !voters were reasonably experienced and knowledgable editors and the purpose of the close is to establish whether the particpants arrived at a consensus or not. In this case, they did not and so the correct close is therefore no consensus or a relisting to get further input. Andrew🐉(talk) 14:02, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm clearly involved (and had I participated later in the discussion, probably would have made a more substantial argument to !delete, since I thought this was a pretty easy call) but considering the relist came with the note "are there any sources which show the GNG is met?", the delete !vote after that didn't think so, and the final keep !vote just made another "must be notable" argument, I don't think this was an unreasonable close - and I also think it's the correct result, based on the sources I've been able to identify. SportingFlyer T·C 19:21, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • As closer, I stand by my assessment and refer to my comments at User talk:Sandstein#Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christian Saunders. Sandstein 19:31, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse one side making vague waves that the person must be notable and the sources meet the GNG without any description of how they do, on the other you have claims that the sources aren't upto the requirements of the GNG as being passing mentions. Given the keep opinions stated there was "easily enough coverage" and "clearly enough" I would seem absolutely trivial to refute the delete arguments so I don't see that a fault of the close that they didn't (particularly in light of the relist comment). Delete opinions cannot prove the negative (sources absolutely don't exist), keep opinions on the other hand can demonstrate the positive by citing those sources and how they meet the requirements of GNG. --81.100.164.154 (talk) 21:39, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse The Keep !votes largely amounted to "he's a notable aid worker" which is not a qualification listed in the subject-specific notability guidelines. The Delete !votes were "does not pass GNG" which describes a WP policy or guideline. (Two Keep !votes referred to the GNG and suggested a multitude of sources existed, but didn't demonstrate such; the existence of sources must be demonstrated, not merely declared. Meanwhile, extant sources were rebutted by Delete !votes by pointing to WP:SIGCOV without challenge or surrebuttal by the Keep !voters.) Because "Consensus is ascertained by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy" (WP:CON), the close delete was an accurate application of our consensus-determining policy by weighting several quality arguments against several non-quality arguments. Chetsford (talk) 23:41, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to No Consensus or to Relist - The error by the closer was in stating that the Keep entries had not addressed sourcing, but one of the Keeps had referred to sourcing, and had been made before the Relisting admin requested more input on sourcing. The closer should either have said that there was no consensus, or relisted again. Relisting again would have been the best option, but we do not ask whether the closer chose the best option, only a reasonable one. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:25, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The close states "do not address the sourcing problems" not just sourcing. None of the comments address the issue of depth raised by the nominator, none of them address that other than assertion about quantity - no mention of suitable depth. --81.100.164.154 (talk) 06:50, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn to NC or relist per Robert McClenon. It's one thing to evaluate which !votes are policy based and which are not--that's a closer's job. It's something else entirely to judge the strength of opposite policy-based arguments. This would have been a perfectly fine relist or a textbook no consensus, but I agree--there should not have been enough difference accorded the !votes to swing this one to either a keep or a delete. Jclemens (talk) 05:43, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse as within discretion but I would have preferred no consensus. Worthwhile discussion now at User talk:Sandstein/Archives/2021/June#Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christian Saunders. Nomination: inadequate sources; keep adequate sources; delete inadequate sources with reason given for one source (the rest?); keep adequate sources; delete inadequate sources; keep topic important. I am unhappy when people !voting keep are expected to point to or demonstrate the sufficiency of sources when those !voting delete are not expected to itemise why none of the sources are adequate. I would let both sides take their individual subjective opinions and so would have closed no consensus. However I think closers should be entitled to take a sterner line. I have not seen the article (and I don't think I need to). Thincat (talk) 07:55, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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