Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 31

Possibly a new general point?

This was previously proposed at Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 9#G9?. A new CSD criteria was suggested, for Legal threats. I'm not sure why this got off the ground, as such legal threats should be removed without the need for a minimum of 5 days in PROD. Just in the past few weeks, I've seen multiple cases of legal threat pages being made. What do others think? Xclamation point 21:20, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

• The proposal faded away last time because it didn't seem to occur often enough to justify the instruction creep of yet another CSD criterion. (See bullet three of the 'new criteria' standards at the top of this talk page.) A few over the course of weeks doesn't yet seem like enough to me. Can you give us actual numbers? How many per day are you seeing? Rossami (talk) 00:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

A page that is entirely legal threat would easily qualify as an attack page, G10. I have modified the wording of G10 to clearly include this. [1] ~ JohnnyMrNinja 02:23, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Yet the same can be said for G10 and G3. Rossami, maybe 0.333 per day? Xclamation point 03:00, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it can be plausibly said that any legal threat can be considered an attack page, though not every legal threat or attack page can be considered vandalism. Some instances are just non-NPOV. Though I do agree that there is some overlap between G3 and G10. Is there a reason that G10 shouldn't be used for legal threats? ~ JohnnyMrNinja 03:49, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Does the deletion of a documentation page for a deleted template fall under G6?

And if not, would it be a valid idea for a new template criterion? Template:S-fic/doc is what provokes this question. Waltham, The Duke of 01:03, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Might be worth mentioning directly there, but evidently it does (had a fair few of these deleted under G6 myself, so it's already in operation). Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 01:08, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

As I've stated before, I dislike this increasingly common habit of using G6 as a catch-all criterion for everything not covered by the other criteria, but I do agree that these should obviously be speedied. Heck, I'll be bold and add it as T4. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 01:25, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

My main question was to see if the criterion was used in a wider sense than what the phrasing indicated; I did not know if there was such a precedent. Personally, I agree with Ilmari Karonen that the interpretation of the criteria should be stricter, as there is less potential for abuse this way. I didn't expect the addition of a criterion to the list to be conducted so matter-of-factly, though, even if uncontroversial.

In any case, this is not over yet. There is infrastructure to be created; doesn't each criterion have its dedicated template? Waltham, The Duke of 03:36, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, right. {{db-t4}}. (I feel old... I still remember when we only had a handful of these and mostly got by with plain old {{deletebecause}}.) Also listed it in all the obvious places; please fix or let me know if I missed any. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 04:12, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I have in turn been bold and created {{db-doc}} as an alternative to {{db-t4}}. I believe it is the most intuitive name. I have also premièred the latter template at Template:S-fic/doc.

Now at {{db-templatedoc}} to avoid confusion with {{db doc}}. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 01:31, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

It's funny how many things are as they are for historical reasons. I remember some time ago looking around to find out why these templates are named "db"; "delete because" is a reasonable enough explanation, but surely one would expect these templates to be named "csd", "sd", or "speedy". (In other words, if they were created now, I expect they would be named in this vein.) Waltham, The Duke of 06:07, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that instead of creating a new criterion (WP:CREEP applies), we should rephrase G8 to cover these, as well as template subpages and other places where one page is entirely dependent on an XfD-deleted page. How about the wording "Pages dependent on a non-existent page. This includes talk pages with no corresponding subject page, documentation or subpages for nonexistent templates, 'infrastructure' for deleted or nonexistent projects and processes, and image pages for files on Wikimedia Commons. Such pages should not be deleted if they contain useful information, such as talkpage archives or image pages with enwiki-specific content." This could also incorporate R1 if desired. (also)Happy‑melon 06:35, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

G8 should simply be adjusted to include talk pages and WP:SUBPAGES of deleted pages. I think that any deleted page can likely have its' subpages deleted, not just templates, and not just documentation. The proposed T4 seems overly-specific. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 07:13, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

And by that I meant I didn't actually read what User:Happy-melon just said, but I agree entirely. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 07:20, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I would say the amount of policy creep is pretty much the same whether the words "documentation subpages of deleted templates" (or equivalent) are added as a separate criterion or appended to G8. Indeed, that was pretty much what I was going to do in the first place, but then I thought: "Heck, this is a specific case that applies only to templates, so it should go under Tsomething. And besides, G8 is long enough as it is already."

JohnnyMrNinja's "tl;dr" remark above is, in fact, rather illustrative. Here's a quick test for anyone reading this: without looking up, can you recall exactly what Happy-melon's proposed "expanded G8" says? For that matter, can you recall exactly what the current criterion G8 says? Now how about T4 — easier, isn't it?

(Going slightly off on a tangent, it's kind of interesting that we've gone backwards on this in some ways: the earliest revision of CSD had a separate list spelling out in detail what counts as a "technical deletion". These days we lump it all under a vaguely worded criterion G6, with the result that nobody's quite sure exactly what it covers. Perhaps an alternative solution would be to start splitting the broader criteria into bulleted lists of "subcriteria". Indeed, we sort of do a similar thing already with the {{db-*}} templates: {{db-g6}} and {{db-a7}} both have at least five more specific subtemplates.) —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 18:14, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Broadening G8 to apply to sub-pages sounds like a good idea. Another use is for subpages of portals which have been deleted. (Often, such subpages are merely intended for transclusion to the page deleted.) - jc37 18:34, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that WP:CREEP warns against proliferating overly specific individual guidelines, trying to cover every possible specific situation. The correct response is to make guidelines as broad as reasonably possible so they can cover more specific cases - this is what I'm trying to suggest with G8. My wording above is just an example; if you can think of a more concise wording, please do suggest it. (also)Happy‑melon 07:16, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Is there support for this over T4? I fully support this, including redirects to non-existent pages. The only part I question is "image pages for files on Wikimedia Commons". If this is meant to mean "image pages for files deleted from Wikimedia Commons", I would support it, as that is how WP categories are given to Commons images, esp. featured images. This upgrade to G8 will expand its narrow focus, as well remove the need for R1 and the proposed T4. The wording can possibly be made simpler, but my "tl;dr" was more based on the amount of sleep I'd had than the quality of the proposal. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 06:23, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I really mean images which have been moved to commons but where the original image description page remains, usually a duplicate of the commons page. Situations such as you suggest, where the page contains valuable en-wiki-specific content, should be excluded, as I've tried to say in my wording suggestion. (also)Happy‑melon 07:16, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Images aren't moved to commons, they are copied. This creates an exact duplicate, but leaves the original image intact on Wikipedia, which is covered under I8 (specifically {{ncd}}). I am happy with all parts of this proposal except for any image page for which an image exists, be it on WP or Commons. This wouldn't fit with the "non-existent" part of the reasoning. An image page for which no image exists (on WP or Commons), should fit under the "Pages dependent on a non-existent page or file" umbrella. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 05:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

How's this for G8 -

"Pages dependent on a non-existent page. This includes talk pages with no corresponding subject page, subpages with no parent page (such as documentation for a deleted template), image pages on Wikipedia for files that have been deleted from Wikimedia Commons, or redirects to nonexistent targets (including redirect loops that do not end with a valid target). This excludes any talk or subpage which is useful to the project, and in particular: deletion discussions that are not logged elsewhere, user talk pages, image pages or talk pages for images that exist on Wikimedia Commons, and talk subpages (such as archives) whose corresponding "top-level" page exists."

I was also thinking about adding something like "Generally, talk pages of deleted pages in Wikipedia namespace with potentially useful discussion should be moved to an archive of a related active WikiProject, for potential future reference.", but that is just a thought. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 02:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmn, we now have the usual problem of the wording growing undesirably long, but without there being any obvious place to cut from. How about:

"Pages dependent on a non-existent page, such as talk pages with no corresponding subject page or subpages with no parent page. Also image pages without a corresponding image, and redirects to nonexistent targets. This excludes any page which is useful to the project (such as talk archives), and in particular: deletion discussions that are not logged elsewhere, user talk pages, and image pages or talk pages for images that exist on Wikimedia Commons." ?? (also)Happy‑melon 10:48, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Done, G8 updated and R1 merged into it. I can't touch the templates as someone edit-protected them.... Hopefully they are moved to semi soon, or an admin will reword the templates and redirect where appropriate. I really don't feel like throwing a bunch of {{editprotected}}s around right now. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 06:56, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

What about C3? A template-category that's template has been deleted would seem to fall under this umbrella, no? ~ JohnnyMrNinja 09:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with merging R1 into G8. R1 is a criteria everyone is pretty familiar with and a lot of deletion summaries have used it. Whilst I agree that it is generally better to have fewer broad CSDs, I don't see the point of removing them for the sake of it. It also leaves the numbering particularly silly if we have R2 & R3 but not R1. WJBscribe (talk) 10:13, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree, R1 should not be merged. Where the other pages under G8 are dependent on other types of pages (subpages dependent on pages, talk pages on articles, etc), a Redirect is an article dependent on another article. In many cases, I'll change the target of an R1 rather than delete it, because the R1 designation specifically says that "this article had a valid redirect target, and now does not", which indicates that there might be another such target out there somewhere. A talk page can only have one article page, and once that's deleted, there isn't another article page that might fit. The R1 criteria is useful in itself as a cleanup criteria, and should remain separate. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 18:49, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I would first like to point out the above text "The criterion should be nonredundant: if the deletion can be accomplished using a reasonable interpretation of an existing rule, just use that." I do not feel that it can be argued that an R1 would not qualify as a page dependent on another. Does the fact that it is an article somehow change that it is a page? Also, all DBs Should be checked to see if they can provide a valid function. Many talk pages are moved to talk archives, for ease of searching. many subpages are moved to historical pages of WikiProjects and the like. And many redirects can be altered to provide valid an plausible targets. R1 will still redirect to this CSD, and the template can even be preserved as a specific instance of G8, but I do not feel that a separate CSD for an instance of G8 in a redirect would qualify as "nonredundant". ~ JohnnyMrNinja 19:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm of mixed feelings about merging in R1, although I don't agree with WJBscribe's comments. We have already merged A4 and A6 into G-series criteria, so we'd leave a similar note at R1 and not cause any confusion for readers of deletion logs. We're not just removing criteria 'for the sake of it' - as Johnny says, R1 is currently a subset of G8, and CSD criteria should be nonredundant. On the other hand, R1 deletions are common enough that it might be valuable to retain a distinction for filtering purposes. I'm honestly not sure, and honestly don't particularly care. It's one fewer criterion to remember, though, and KISS principle applies here as everywhere else... (also)Happy‑melon 13:01, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

What about the templates?

The table of deletion templates has not yet been updated, so I thought we could discuss the new arrangement a bit. Since G8 now assumes a wider role, shouldn't its dependent templates reflect that? Look at G6, for example: it has {{db-g6}} and another six templates as shorthands for specific tasks. Shouldn't G8 have a few as well? I'm not saying they should follow a pattern (or we'd have to add seven templates), but {{db-talk}} certainly fails to be representative. The new {{db-templatedoc}} could redirect to {{db-g8}}, for one, as could {{db-redirnone}} (if R1 stays merged with G8), and a few others could be created, like {{db-subpage}} and {{db-imagepage}}. Waltham, The Duke of 13:55, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree that several easy-to-remember redirects would be useful, though I do feel that {{db-t4}} and {{db-templatedoc}} should be deleted as unnecessary and possibly confusing. T4 only had I think one deletion before it was marked as proposed. I'd rather delete those templates and save T4 for the next candidate. I've been trying to think of a clever and easy redirect name that would cover the whole thing, but the best I can come up with is {{db-dependent}} or perhaps {{db-depend}}. I haven't been able to start editing the other ones, as they are still fully-protected (see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive169#CSD Template Protections and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#CSD templates still fully-protected?). ~ JohnnyMrNinja 20:14, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

{{db-t4}} should certainly be deleted, but that doesn't mean we couldn't change {{db-templatedoc}} to redirect to {{db-g8}}, or even be a proper template in the vein of the specialised ones used for G6, does it? Waltham, The Duke of 20:24, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

{{db-templatedoc}} could be kept, but I think {{db-subpage}} would serve the same purpose but would be easier to remember. Of course, redirects are cheap, but Category:Speedy deletion templates is already a little over-populated. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 20:38, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I see what has been done with {{db-subpage}} and I agree that {{db-templatedoc}} is no longer needed; I should support its deletion. I also see {{db-imagepage}} has been created as a redirect; since it exists, I don't think it would harm to make it into a proper template like {{db-subpage}}—{{db-g8}} has too much text. I have updated Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion/Deletion templates to remove T4 and {{db-templatedoc}} entirely and add {{db-subpage}} and {{db-imagepage}} to G8. (I haven't changed R1 yet, seeing there is still disagreement.) Are there any other new templates or changes I should be aware of? Waltham, The Duke of 11:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll have to look into this some more, but I'm sorry, I don't think this was done in an ideal way. I'd like to get Happy-melon's opinion too.

As I understand it, you wanted to create a new {{db-talk}} that is related to {{db-g8}} the way {{db-move}}, for example, is related to {{db-g6}}.

I would have preferred keeping the page history of db-g8 at db-g8; I see no rationale for moving it to db-talk. (Let's not suddenly move it back without thinking about it a bit, though.)

Note that db-move transcludes db-g6. I think db-talk should probably similarly transclude db-g8. It makes sense to me for db-talk to be subsidiary to db-g8 rather than being another separate template transcluding db-meta.☺ Coppertwig (talk) 12:18, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmn... I agree that this was not an ideal solution. We now have a proliferation of independent templates, none of which are categorised, none of which have documentation, and all of which are very similar but slightly different, a recipe for confusion. I agree, first of all, that the history of Template:Db-g8, now at Template:Db-talk, should be returned to that page. The criterion text has been modified, so the template history should reflect that modification. Looking at the current history it is easy to conclude that the current G8 criterion was created out of nowhere, which is simply not the case. A history merge might be appropriate, but sidelining the old history certainly isn't.

I also have to take issue with the proliferation of separate wordings - we now have {{db-talk}} and {{db-subpage}} as entirely separate templates. Why is it not acceptable for these to be hard redirects? At the very least, these templates should form a hierarchy on {{db-g8}} in the same way that the G6 and A7 subtemplates are based on {{db-g6}} and {{db-a7}} respectively, as Coppertwig suggests. Having them as separate templates is just plain messy. (also)Happy‑melon 12:51, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and Template:Db-t4 should definitely be deleted to free up the number for a future criterion; it never got enough airtime to warrant retention. (also)Happy‑melon 13:01, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I had no idea about the move, nor about any transclusion features; I thought the "child" templates were completely independent, and that {{db-talk}} was simply created in that location. The present arrangement with regards to {{db-talk}} and {{db-g8}} does look strange and suboptimal.

(new part) Yes, I agree with moving the template back. Now, about the redirects, I think that for criteria like G8 that describe several different cases it might be better to have more specific versions of the wordy {{db-g8}} template available. Since there can be such hierarchy as has been described, of course, that would be much better than the relative chaos of separate templates. And they shouldn't be too many, either; there are three at the moment (one a redirect), and at most one may be added if the merger of G8 with R1 goes forward. Waltham, The Duke of 13:04, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, the page move was silly. This is why I left a message for Coppertwig hereasking for help. I realized the db-g8 page move was not a great idea right after I asked an admin to do it. I swear I thought it was a really good idea right before that. A history merge would be ideal. Apologies. As far as {{db-t4}}, when the speedy I put on was denied, [2] I decided to move it to {{db-subpage}}, to preserve the history and get it out of the way of a new T4. I would take no issue with it being deleted, and {{db-t4}}, which is now a redirect, can certainly be deleted. I was not thinking to create a dependant template at {{db-imagepage}} simply because I do not think it will come up all that often. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 17:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Charlotte Ronson

I wrote an article about Charlotte Ronson. No, she's not the most well known person in the world, but anyone involved in the fashion world at all, many that live in New York, and people who know of the family in general know who she is. She's a designer and showed at Bryant Park, pretty impressive and pretty well known obviously. Yet, for some reason unknown to me, my page was deleted. I used sources, etc. etc. and as far as I know, didn't do anything wrong, yet the post is now gone.

Somebody please explain this to me. 65.32.130.128 (talk) 23:52, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

You're going to have to provide us more information before anyone can investigate this. No page has ever existed at the title Charlotte Ronson. Your contribution history shows some work done at Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Submissions/Charlotte Ronson but again, nothing has ever been deleted. (An established editor did review your work and declined to move it from that draft space into the main article space but he/she already left you a detailed explaination of the reasons for the decline.) Rossami (talk) 00:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I must also point out that anonymous editors through IP addresses can't create articles on Wikipedia. The author for this article is Theydiskox. Is that you? (That can be rhetorical.) ←Signed:→Mr. E. Sánchez ^{Get to know me!} / _{Talk to me!}←at≈:→ 11:48, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Images and media

As a photographer who uses watermarks to protect his work in the internet age I am finding that some of the MODs at Wiki are citing a "no watermark" policy. I do not see this listed here. I am given section 3 as the main reason for image deletion (Improper license. Images licensed as "for non-commercial use only", "non-derivative use" or "used with permission" that were uploaded on or after May 19, 2005, except where they have been shown to comply with the limited standards for the use of non-free content. This includes images licensed under a "Non-commercial Creative Commons License". Such images uploaded before May 19, 2005 may also be speedily deleted if they are not used in any articles.) however when I quote the section back, because it clearly says ...except where they have been shown to comply with the limited standards for the use of non-free content. This includes images licensed under a "Non-commercial Creative Commons License" the reason for the deletion suddenly changes from CSD I3 to the watermark. I am sorry but I have read and re-read and I see nothing about a watermark being a valid reason for deletion here. It has been suggested that if an image has a watermark than is most likely not the persons image who uploaded it and in my case that if I wanted to "prove" I am the photographer I have to give a clean copy to Wiki. There are two basic "wrongs" with that - one asking for someone to give away their work to "prove" something is just stupidity. The other is, again, I do not see this "reason" listed here. In doing a search I find something that I 100% agree with, however it seems some Wiki mods are 100% opposed to. Copy attack has the following: In some scenarios, a digital watermark is added to a piece of media such as an image, movie, or audio clip, to prove its authenticity. If a piece of media were presented and found to lack a watermark, it would be considered suspect.

So thusly my suggestion is to rewrite the licensing rules (I was told by one mod there was only one license used here so if this is now true you must delete all other ones from all pages) and the CSD rules as it relates to images. Also either purchase non-public domain images from the photographer for use here or allow professional photographers to choose a license that suits their work rather than have a mod force only one choice upon them - "give it to us or don't". That elitist attitude does not make me want to help out Wiki Soundvisions1 (talk) 05:47, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it's not about watermarks. Your image has been deleted three times because is was never uploaded with a licence acceptable for Wikipedia. Wikipedia aims to be free content, reusable by anyone, including for modifications and commercial use. CC-BY-NC-ND is not acceptable for this. So thank you for your offer, but we don't take it. Conscious (talk) 06:56, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Just a question, is there any deletion criteria for an image with a watermark? Or do we allow those? Matty - (Talk) 09:11, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

There's no speedy deletion criterion but Wikipedia:IUP#User-created_images forbids it.

To the original poster, there are many acceptable licenses for Wikipedia: see WP:ICT/FL for a list. Stifle (talk) 09:48, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Is anyone reading Wikis own guidelines? I have tried make it easy and even guide people to the spot that is given as reason for deletion yet also shows what is allowed. Once again:

CSD I3 : Improper license. Images licensed as "for non-commercial use only", "non-derivative use" or "used with permission" that were uploaded on or after May 19, 2005, except where they have been shown to comply with the limited standards for the use of non-free content. This includes images licensed under a "Non-commercial Creative Commons License". Such images uploaded before May 19, 2005 may also be speedily deleted if they are not used in any articles..

To respond to Conscious. You said: Your image has been deleted three times because is was never uploaded with a license. Wrong. It was uploaded with a license. You than state: CC-BY-NC-ND is not acceptable for this. Wrong. Please take a moment a read the Wiki guidelines that we are discussing here: CSD I3 and please note the wording of what I am specifically asking/discussing: except where they have been shown to comply with the limited standards for the use of non-free content. This includes images licensed under a "Non-commercial Creative Commons License".

To respond to Stifle: That was my point, that currently Wiki allows for various type of licenses yet I was told by a mod that there was only one license. Thusly, if that is true, my suggestion of rewriting all Wiki pages that say there are other forms of licenses. CSD I3, the section of this discussion, clearly talks about more than one license.

Matty re-asked what I also did and was answered by Stifle that "There's no speedy deletion criterion" for an image to be removed because of a watermark. Thank you for acknowledging that there is currently no policy on the CSD I3 page. I feel that Mods can not, nor should they, cite this page as reason for deletion because of a watermark when there is no mention of that being a criteria for speedy deletion. As for the other part of the response - acceptable for Wikipedia was never an issue because it has never been cited by anyone, at anytime, other than right now. This discussion is about CSD I3 and how it is being cited in order to delete images that do not meet any of the criteria listed for speedy deletion. I will take time to read acceptable for Wikipedia and comment on that particle discussion page if need be.

Soundvisions1 (talk) 13:49, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

The issue you're having is that you're misunderstanding I3. Noncommercial licenses are not acceptable for images hosted on the English Wikipedia servers. This is because all content (including images) en.wiki is licensed under the GFDL, which does not stipulate that reuse must be noncommercial. Unless I'm mistaken, however (which I may be), the Wikimedia Commons should accept CC-BY-NC licenses. Cheers. lifebaka++ 14:42, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

You are mistaken I'm afraid, Commons doesn't accept images for non-commercial use only either. See here for example. Iain99^{Balderdash and piffle} 14:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. lifebaka++ 15:23, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

As for the OP, you're misreading WP:CSD#I3. "This includes images licensed under a "Non-commercial Creative Commons License" means that CC-NC licences are included in what can be speedily deleted, not what cannot. Possibly by itself the sentence is a little ambiguous, but it should be clear from the context of the criterion as a whole (which allows speedy deletion of material licensed "for non-commercial use only", which obviously applies to CC-NC), and from the quote linked immediately afterwards, clarifying that NC and ND licenses are not acceptable. Iain99^{Balderdash and piffle} 14:56, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

First to address the "you're not reading correctly" type comments. I have re-re-re-read the section I am talking about. It does not say only one one thing (speedy deletion of material licensed "for non-commercial use only"), it says several. It first lays out what the criteria are for SD. What comes next seems to be what most people are missing. There is very important word that puts what follows it into a clear context - that word is except. Unless the definition of that word has changed it means that the 1.rules are 2.EXCEPT 3.exceptions to the rule. It is very clear and there is not a way to misread it as written. And I, again, am only pointing out here that if there is, in reality, with no exceptions, only one license and that it does not have any "exceptions" than this section needs to be re-written. lifebaka asked about Wikimedia and I have already explored that option however, as Iain99 mentioned, they have a clearly defined set of rules with no grey areas or exceptions. To summarize - If it isn't free for all we won't accept it. Wiki is not that black and white on the issue and that is really why I created this topic. (And I want to mention I did read the acceptable for Wikipedia page and will be adding a discussion there because, again, grey areas exist. I will not get into those here only to say that as far as watermarking goes it appears to be another "Exception" rule, although an unwritten one. In my case the fact I want to protect my work is reason for deletion the "exception" is in the other watermarked images the watermarking is allowed because there are no copyrights on the image, or the photographer released it into public domain. However, as stated above, the CSD page makes zero mentions of watermarking being a reason for speedy deletion, if it is it should be added here and it should be clear as to either all watermarked images go or what the "exceptions" are.)

Just a little edit here - Iain99 posted a link to a "quote" however it is not a quote from this section. It seems to be a comment on a page about an image on Wikimedia, which has a separate (and IMO, more clearly defined set of rules).

Soundvisions1 (talk) 16:29, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Right, right, I'm sorry. I'm not terribly up on my image CSD. Still, the deleted version don't appear to have had fair use rationales, which means that they did qualify for I3. I have no idea if a claim for fair use could be made, as that is not an area I'm very involved in, but I suggest having the fair use rationale ready to go before uploading again if you plan to. Cheers. lifebaka++ 16:44, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

There are two considerations here:

• Previously unpublished, user-created images cannot be used under a fair use rationale, per WP:NFCC#4. Thus they must be released under an acceptable free license, such as CC-BY-SA or GFDL.
• User-created images cannot have watermarks, per Wikipedia:IUP#User-created_images.

Any user who is not willing to release their original work under a free license without watermarks will not be able to contribute that original work to Wikipedia. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:51, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

My take. Almost all watermarks do not have reliable sources discussing the watermark. The watermark by itself may be enough to prevent a user-created images from being used under a fair use rationale, per WP:NFCC#8. Where no reliable source material discusses the watermark, the watermarked image cannot be shown to comply with the limited standards for the use of non-free content per WP:NFCC#8. Without meeting WP:NFCC#8, the image has no reasonable basis for being used in an article. In such cases, the watermarked image may be removed from an article and CSD I3 and CSD I5 may apply. The watermarked image may be viewed as a derivative work and both the underlying image and derivative work/watermarked image would need to meet WP:NFCC. There is the additional issue of copyright holder approval to make the derivative work, which seems to be a separate copyright issue outside of WP:NFCC#8 that would need to be resolved before allowing the image to be displayed in Wikipedia. Expressly prohibiting watermarks except where the image is intended to demonstrate watermarking avoids these and other issues. -- Suntag ☼ 17:50, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I can't follow what you're saying. User-created images can never be used as nonfree media, watermarked or not, because of WP:NFCC#4. But I don't see what WP:NFCC#8 (signficance) has to do with it. I think it's a red herring. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:11, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Watermarked images cannot meet WP:NFCC#8 without reliable sources expressly discussing how the watermark or image with watermark would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic. In otherwords the watermark itself cannot be ignored in applying WP:NFCC#8. Also, images with watermarks fail Wikipedia:Image use policy unless, of course, the image itself is intended to demonstrate watermarking. -- Suntag ☼ 18:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all so far for the input, I appreciate it. I want to try and keep this topic on two facts as it relates to the main article, CSD, and they are:

• CSD I3 and its exceptions as written, including the links to valid CCL.
• The lack of a CSD policy being in place for images that have watermarks of any kind.

It is fine to cite where the information can be found, and why is exists, but how do "the powers that be" clean it up so Mods (and other who make Image CSD requests) can more easily locate it rather than the CSD being cited because...well, just "because".

As for the other issues that Suntag, CBM and other mention you might want to take that part of the discussion over to Image use, grey areas, confusion and Photographer rights.Soundvisions1 (talk) 21:07, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I've rewritten I3 to express the intention of Jimbo and the current practice that CC-NC images are deleteable and not acceptable. Stifle (talk) 10:57, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Talk pages

Should new criteria be drawn up for speedy deletion of talk pages? Simply south (talk) 10:26, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

What is not presently covered? All the "G" criteria (G is for "General") cover talk pages. fish&karate 10:46, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

What do you have in mind? Stifle (talk) 10:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Blanked talk pages, talk pages covering redirects and disambiguation pages with no discussion, talk pages as redirects Simply south (talk) 11:18, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure why any of those pages need to be deleted, except talk pages as redirects perhaps, those could be misleading. I'm particularly thinking that talk pages of redirects and disambiguation pages with no discussion do not need to be deleted—they're not doing any harm by existing. Darkspots (talk) 11:31, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm with Darkspots here. Is there a specific advantage to deleting them? --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 11:44, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. When a page and its talk page is moved (by a non-admin) the talk page automatically redirects to the target talk page, IIRC. There are also cases when a redirecting talk page with a topic page that isn't a redirect makes sense to keep the discussion centralized, e.g. Template talk:Fact/doc or User talk:ClueBot.
Talk pages of redirects aren't worthy of deletion. We have a WikiProject Redirect that tags pages like Talk:METALLICA, many talk pages of redirects have an {{oldafdfull}} notice or some other discussion preceding a merge that should be kept. Blanked talk pages can just as well be kept, or often be tagged with a wikiproject banner anyway. --Amalthea^Talk 20:01, 30 September 2008 (UTC)