Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography

WP:DEADNAME - Expand

"If a living transgender or non-binary person was not notable under a former name (a deadname), it should not be included in any page (including lists, redirects, disambiguation pages, category names, templates, etc.), even in quotations, even if reliable sourcing exists. Treat the pre-notability name as a privacy interest separate from (and often greater than) the person's current name. For example:"

Why does this only apply to transgender people? IMO, it should apply to any name that existed before someone's notability, not just transgender/non-binary people, for exactly the same reasons above (no legitimate reason greater than the privacy consideration). My tightness (talk) 02:02, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

WP:SAMESURNAME

WP:SAMESURNAME says "In an article that is not about either unrelated person with the same surname, continue to refer to them both by their full names." Should this be amended to "...continue to refer to them both by their full names, unless only one person is mentioned within the same section (or sub-section)."?

For example, this comes up in the 2024 Welsh Open snooker tournament page. There are two players with the same last name, Kyren Wilson and Gary Wilson. In the "Summary" section of the prose, Kyren is only mentioned once as he was eliminated early in the tournament. But as Gary went on to win the event, his name was used multiple times, especially in the "Semi-finals" and "Final" sections. The editors decided for those sub-sections to only use the full "Gary Wilson" name at first mention, then switch to "Wilson", which I think is better than continuing to use his full name. AmethystZhou (talk) 01:38, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. When we summarised the semi-final match between Gary Wilson and John Higgins, for instance, it seemed adequate to use "Gary Wilson" on the first use and "Wilson" thereafter, as it's clear which of the Wilsons played in that match. An issue also arises with seven-time world champion Ronnie O'Sullivan, as another snooker player is named Sean O'Sullivan. It would be incredible clunky to have to refer to Ronnie O'Sullivan by his full name on every single use, across countless articles, just because there exists another player with the same last name who has never been ranked higher than 73rd in the world. HurricaneHiggins (talk) 14:49, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Any general consensus on list of publications by the article subject?

I have a lot of rules of thumb that I've seen used, but is there any general consensus on what to include (maybe from RfCs or noticeboard discussions)? --Hipal (talk) 19:47, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

It depends a lot on the type of subject and the type of list. For book authors I would include all published books. For scientists who have published hundreds of journal papers, in a "selected publications" list within a biography, I would include a small enough number to make it obvious that it is really selected: maybe six for a typical case, more only if each addition beyond that can be justified by significant independent coverage of that publication. For journalists who have published hundreds of newspaper or magazine articles, I think it is rare to see a listing of any of them, and would require special justification. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:33, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks.

One of the most common rules of thumb I've seen used is to consider the publisher; looking for self-publication, vanity publishers, very small publishers, etc.

While I've seen mention of trimming a research publication list by impact factor, I don't recall seeing it done. --Hipal (talk) 21:00, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

"Impact factor" is an aggregate measure, supposedly correlated to the strength of a journal, calculated by averaging the number of citations per paper over some time window. Selecting papers by the impact factors of the journals they were publishing in is like a form of WP:INHERITED: very inaccurate for determining significance. Better to just look at the citation counts of the papers themselves. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:10, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. The significance of a research paper usually correlates with the IF of the journal it's published in, but not always. It's better to look at the number of citations of the paper, as well as what papers are citing it (are those high-impact papers too?). Although be aware that recent (only several years old) papers will naturally have fewer citations than older papers. AmethystZhou (talk) 02:00, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Organization and stylistic changes

After answering a question at the help desk, I was left pondering about this guideline and engaged in a quest of organization and stylistic changes to improve the page. It was to improve the form, visuals, style, navigation, organization. I did not intend any meaning changes and if there is any it was likely unintended. I hope the changes are of the liking of my fellow editors. If not, feel free to discuss or change. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 06:58, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Unimportant age details at time of death

When is it useful or encyclopedic to say something like "he died seven and a half weeks before his 93rd birthday" instead of "he died at age 92"? I might be convinced to allow something like "she died one day before her 100th birthday", but where do we draw the line? Chris the speller ^yack 18:22, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Chris the speller, I see no point in including that sort of content. The age at death should be sufficient. Eddie Blick (talk) 19:13, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

At a minimum, I would expect a reliable source to mention it, establishing some significance.—Bagumba (talk) 19:32, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to you both for the response. There are hundreds of these, including some like this: "exactly two weeks before his 95th birthday". What precision! But what good does it do for any reader? I will nibble away at this pile of excessive drivel. Chris the speller ^yack 20:41, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Chris the speller, a related point is that in many cases where such expressions appear the date of birth is unsourced. Therefore any expression of a span before or after a birthday would be unsourced, also (unless the span is stated in the obituary or has some other reliable source). Eddie Blick (talk) 00:43, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

While I agree that a line should be drawn, if the detail is reliably sourced, I don't see how it benefits the reader to provide a less precise range rather than a more precise one. The fact that such references commonly occur in reporting suggests that it is a detail likely to be of interest to readers, and I would generally be opposed to any sweeping campaign of removing these details, absent a lack of sourcing. BD2412 T 23:25, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

If the specific date of death is provided, can't the reader determine for themself how much of a "partial year" of age they had at the time of their death? I don't really see any need to include something extraneous like that, especially when it's already there for anyone who actually is interested. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 00:22, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I find such details to be excessive, with the damage being distraction and undue weight. Birthday anniversaries just aren't (usually) that important. It is appropriate in some nonencyclopedic writing that is trying to add some color to the story, but Wikipedia should stick to plain facts. I think some editors would even reject this as analysis of the sources (assuming the sources just give the birth and death dates). Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 03:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Since 99.7% of our dear departed did not die on their birthday, for uniformity we should either specify the proximity to their birthday or omit it. If everybody gets the birthday mention, who's going to pitch in and add it to the hundreds of thousands of articles that don't yet have it? Easier to remove it from the relatively few articles where the subject's niece or nephew added this unencyclopedic trivia. Chris the speller ^yack 04:16, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I am sure that newspapers have some rule for this. It is very common for news reports to indicate this proximity where it is close (within a few weeks). Taken to the opposite extreme, why do we say of someone, "he died at age 92" rather than "he died in his 90s"? BD2412 T 04:43, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

In my first post at the top of this discussion, I asked "where do we draw the line?" To me, "until his death three months before his 56th birthday" is only slightly less preposterous than "until his death ten months before his 56th birthday". Chris the speller ^yack 05:15, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

where do we draw the line": YMMV. Depending on where and when, some are satisfied if it's verifiable (or even via WP:CALC), others may get into whether it's WP:DUE. Ultimately, there's the WP:ONUS policy:

While information must be verifiable for inclusion in an article, not all verifiable information must be included. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article.

—Bagumba (talk) 05:34, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Consensus on adding disabilities (blind/deaf) in biographical article first sentence?

Disabilities are never mentioned in first sentences, just nationality and occupation. See Category:Deaf actors for examples. However this article (Kaylee Hottle) seems to be breaking established status quo. 🅶🅰🅼🅾🆆🅴🅱🅱🅴🅳 (talk) 12:47, 30 March 2024 (UTC)