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The reason of removing that section was silly. It all started with the question: "The succeeded panel in the info box, seems generally wrong in claiming Byzantium was succeeded by the Ottomans, were there any other successors to Byzantine?". And after a long discussion, it ended up with a statement: "Yes, it would probably be better without; it adds little except confusion, and it will not be readily improved in a way that does not generate yet more confusion." But they had no doubt to add as many successors as possible into Ottoman Empire infobox, or let that section exists to this day. ZanzibarSailor (talk) 02:36, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Ottomans are not showing as successors on the actual article. We want to reduce where we can what is in the info box as people constantly change it. On this same logic, we should reduce what is on Western Roman Empire.
Specifically, successors are fraught with issues: on what basis? Language, religion, geography? The Rum Millet is about as close as it gets to a successor for the people of the empire but that just opens up another can of worms. The politicisation of successor states makes this just a headache we don't need. Biz (talk) 22:49, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Listing successor states is useful for people researching the history of a region and what comes next in the chronology. We should try to list all geographic successors, and if the Byzantines reconquer a region and then are reconquered again by a different polity (eg First and Second Bulgarian Empire) then both successors should be listed. If you want to keep the list concise then you should only list the most influential and historically important (more than 1 though). It should only list independent polities (so not the Rum Millet as they are included within the Ottoman Empire).
This isn't of a region, it's of a multiregional polity that evolved over millennia. The outline you are suggesting is far too broad and unwieldy for an infobox. The purpose of an infobox is to summarize the easily summarizable, important information contained within the article body, and what an infobox is actually capable of accurately presenting well has been the subject of much reevaluation over the past few years. Much of the issue is we are trying to cram highly complex, arguably synthetic topics (e.g. "predecessor" and "successor" states) into a visual presentation. I would argue aspects like these just far too complicated for this presentation to be either accurate or specific enough. Remsense留23:09, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
If people are going to persist with this fantasy name for a big chunk of the Roman Empire, then a more educational informative title would seem better, such as 'Byzantine Empire (Roman Empire)'. It might stop a lot of people who have yet to gain the knowledge, who would maybe unintentionally ignore the article because the word Roman is not there, from not ignoring the article.
Middle More Rider (talk) 02:19, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Let me count the ways:
The use of a parenthetical disambiguator is usually to be avoided when possible, and I can't think of a worse case than here.
You say the article would be less bad, and then you say it is 'unintentionally ignored'. Which is the problem, exactly?
Believe it or not, the article name has been discussed before, check the top of this page.
We need to follow the sources. What the professionals use first as our opinions go last.
Kaldellis is the one challenging the convention of the last century (ie, when "Byzantine" replaced empire of the Greeks) and he tends to oscillate between "east Roman" and Ῥωμανία" ("Romanía" or Romanland) which is what they called themselves from the 4th century. There is no scholarly consensus that this is the best solution, despite an acknowledgement that the term Byzantine is problematic by the profession. Biz (talk) 03:12, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A recent edit, appropriately reverted, has me question two things
(1) Do we need to have the infobox title repeat the article name and lead sentence in English? If we can just remove the English, and keep the Latin and Greek, it's one less thing people will constantly want to change.
(The author's suggestion of Ρωμαίων επικράτεια aka "Roman Domain" I don't think we need to consider because we are not trying to pick a new name in Greek today just use the name that the state used during its existence.) Biz (talk) 23:01, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the infobox should give the English name. That's bog standard across all articles with infoboxen. I'd sooner see the Latin and Greek removed. Lounghis' article seems to indicate that basileia is marginally more common than the others, but also that there was no single term; in which case it might be better to have a footnote that lists the various Greek terms rather than giving one Greek term preeminance in the infobox. Generally speaking, the infobox is a bad place for anything complicated or nuanced. Furius (talk) 10:53, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. So in terms of footnote text, my proposal:
"The ways the "Byzantine Empire" was referred to among its inhabitants at the time included Res publica Romana and Ῥωμαίων Πολιτεία which means the Roman commonwealth; Imperium Romanorum and Βασιλεία Ῥωμαίων interpreted as empire of the Romans. 'Ρωμανία from the mid-sixth century which transliterated is Romania. From the 8th century, we see references in narrative sources to it being called Ῥωμαίων εξουσί which means 'the Roman power' or 'the Roman domination." Biz (talk) 01:59, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great. Yeah I was just using the source there but agreed dominion translates better. I'll make this edit and if anyone else prefers different they can edit it directly. Biz (talk) 06:50, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd put on the record that I don't like explanative footnotes on infoboxes. These articles have too many layers of notes already. If something needs an explanative note to be understood properly, then it shouldn't be in the infobox in the first place. Fut.Perf.☼10:17, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I like that principle. So with that logic, we should remove the title "Byzantine Empire" altogether and move all official names into Nomenclature? Biz (talk) 11:37, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's actually nothing wrong with the term (well, other than the congnitive dissonance to understand why we use it). What's really wrong is how scholarship has constructed a view that frames the facts to create a certain narrative, sometimes false, which has and continues to be used for power. The conventional name may change one day; however, understanding how the scholarship has been constructed to distort a narrative is the harder thing to understand and the necessary precondition before there can be any name changes. I implore you to spend more time thinking about this and not the surface level issue of the name. At least, this is what good historians with a degree should be doing. Biz (talk) 18:36, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You've typed so many words, yet you initiated your paragraph with the following sentence:
I've done a thorough review of "society" this last month.
This includes verifying all the original sources, adding new sources (Kaldellis 2023 as a baseline but more where I could like Rotman's new book on slavery that I read and which I discovered from a a review of his earlier book that was used as a reference), expanding on content consequently and re-arranging content where I could. While I feel like I've made an appropriate effort on WP:V (I should point out it was clear to me people who added some of these sources never actually read them which concerns me about the rest of the article), I would like more eyes to ensure I've met other important principles like WP:NPOV. WP:SS is an issue that bugs me, and will happen as certain main articles are improved (Languages of the Roman Empire is one potentially) or created (side note: education needs expansion and has a lot that could be covered). I've made all the references sfnm to enable more references to be added later. This work still feels incomplete and I will continue to work on it as I read more sources this year, but it's now at a point where I'd value more eyes if you've not kept up with the edits I've made.
Because that is what people refer to it as. For example, Anthony Kaldellis strongly objects to "Byzantine" as a word, but still felt it necessary to subtitle his book "A History of Byzantium". Book sales are presumably higher when people know what you're talking about. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:27, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What Airship wrote is the why we are forced to right now. It's the convention. Kaldellis is confident it's not defensible (ie, new generation of academic staff not beholding to past thinking) and it's only a matter of time when the convention will change. His book is a giant leap in moving the conversation, but as a Wikipedia community, we have to respect that we follow the convention set by the academics (at minimum).
There is a deeper reason at play though which is why do historians wish to treat a period of the Roman state as a different entity, which in turn justifies giving it a different name. I've seen editors focused on Roman history here even call it a different civilization.
Fortunately, there has been a lot of great scholarship that is correcting this. For example, I was just reading recently about how education was done (Oxford Handbook of Byzantine Studies, 2012) and that it was the exact same from the Hellenistic and Ancient Roman times and right through to the end of the Byzantine empire. This consistency is not the type of thing that justifies calling it a different civilization. Yet there is nothing on Wikipedia that references this credible scholarship and to help address this misconception. Times these misconceptions by a thousand and this is what editors here can do in the interim to help support a convention change if this is what you care about.
Because it doesn't matter. Because substance wins over trivia. Because it's a useful handle. Because WP respects academic consensus more than online forums. Because some people get an absurd bee in their bonnet that just isn't worth the bytes. Because WP has editors and policies that have, to everyone's surprise, stood the test of time and work. DeCausa (talk) 22:39, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Because it doesn't matter. Because substance wins over trivia. Because it's a useful handle."
"Because WP respects academic consensus more than online forums."
Conflicting statements.
"Because some people get an absurd bee in their bonnet that just isn't worth the bytes."
There needs tó be more explanation for the debated start date for the Byzantine Empire. Some may say 330, some may say 395, some may say 286. It’s a very complicated scenario. Blackmamba31248 (talk) 01:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It really doesn't need to be, because it's a total retrospective fiction. There was never such a thing as the "Byzantine Empire", and where we precisely draw the line is totally arbitrary and changes almost nothing. The founding of Constantinople is as good a choice as any, and it's what Kaldellis uses in the omnibus narrative history he published last year. Remsense诉02:21, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't want to condescend, but I hope it's helpful that I keep trying to give you the same advice framed in different ways: these periodizations, factoids, and statistics are not the most important things about history. You're free to work on what you like, but if you want to improve the encyclopedia, I would look at contributing to prose, not infoboxes. This is a featured article, there's probably an especially good reason things are the way they are. Remsense诉02:23, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’m sure you know What the dates are refering Too, but the Roman Empire was stil a unified polity when Cosstantinople was founded. It split apart in 395. But no, that edit has only been there recently, as befor this, í was on the page a couple days ago and it said 330/395. Blackmamba31248 (talk) 02:08, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it's complex, but that's also my point—it's complicated to the degree that I don't think the infobox needs to be burdened with that information: luckily one generally agreed upon date is fine, because again it's something we're imposing backwards mostly so that we have somewhere to start. The Roman empire from the 3rd century on was never really ruled from one center for long, it was simply too big for that—it's a miracle it took until Theodosius for it to bifurcate for good Remsense诉02:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The term “Byzantine” should no longer be used by Wikipedia
The term "Byzantine" is basically a derogatory term for the Eastern Roman Empire and shouldn't be used. Whether it's on an article description, or just for general usage in a page. While even though they were Romans it would be better to use Eastern Roman to show they were Romans but also ethnicity, and culturally different. ByzantineHistory435 (talk) 21:40, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We go by what the sources think is the WP:COMMONNAME. In this case, we can point to how the world’s foremost proponent against “Byzantium” put that word in the title of his recent magnum opus. Or when newly-created accounts start titling themselves "EasternRomanHistory435". ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:04, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that although the byzantine empire is a totally inaccurate name, it is the common name so it has to be used but when I try to add other names mainly the roman empire or Romanía It gets reverted? Daemonofthered (talk) 12:29, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not everything one knows about something has to be in the infobox, which is meant to display key facts at a glance for a general audience per INFOBOXPURPOSE. Less is more. With that in mind, the consensus hammered out by contributors on this talk page has been not to add more names. They're in the body in any case. Remsense诉12:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I understand why Roman Empire can’t be used, but Romanía (with the í, instead of the regular i in Romania the country) is becoming a more popular term for the byzantine empire in online historical communities such as reddit. Daemonofthered (talk) 17:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That matters precisely zero. We write articles based on what appears in reliable sources, not Reddit. The current emphasis reflects that in English-language RS. Also, those names are mentioned, but just, yknow, in the actual article. People obsess with the lead sentences and infobox as if there isn't tens of thousands of actually interesting words. Remsense诉17:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Kalldellis (2023) is probably one of my favorite narrative histories. However, it's one book among many (though the most recent omnibus history). He's still known by his peers as being a little insistent about it. Maybe it'll be a more common name for the general public in 10 or 30 years, but these things don't turn on a dime. Remsense诉17:37, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As part of the FAR of this article, its become apparent there is lot of missing content so the article does not have the comprehensiveness it needs to have. As a case in point, I've just created a new section "army" and am planning to create "navy" next. Clothing and Geography are articles that exist and that the Roman Empire article covers, but is also is missing. I wanted to ask what else is missing from this article so we can add it to the list Biz (talk) 20:38, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why is the entirety of the army section referenced to two sources? That is nowhere near FA standards (see criterion 1c), and will have to be rewritten again. Let's focus on making sure our additions are of suitable quality, rather than worrying about what isn't there. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:16, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I thought Haldon and Kaldellis covered the issues enough to enable neutral coverage for all perspectives. Criterion 1c is qualitative not quantitative. Treadgold's 1990s work and Cambridge's 2019 narrative history I could review. But as I'm so far off, to meet the standard, what should I also be including? Biz (talk) 22:36, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Literally anything high-quality—but make sure that what you're writing is verified by the text. Take the following sentence: "Foreign mercenaries also increasingly became employed, including the better-known Tagma unit, the Varangian Guard, that guarded the emperor." Does the cited source, Haldon p. 556, say that the Varangians guarded the emperor? Does it say that they were a "Tagma [sic] unit"? Does it even say that they were called "the Varangian Guard"? I understand this level of prose and sourcing quality may be difficult to achieve, but they are the FA standards. Best, ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:20, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Re sourcing: got it. My approach has always been creative expression to avoid CLOP, and sources for key facts, with multiple sources if controversial. But the reason I'm drawn to this project is epistemology, and I'm seeing very much the importance of what you are saying. So will see what I can do. (Also, Tagma is singular; yes most sources called it a guard; I'll find a new source that explicitly explains these facts.)
Re the Navy.: I'll see what I can do. I think it will be a paragraph and since it has it's own main article, it's justified. But will first focus on the army rewrite and see if I can reduce the word out which is the main reason I separated it. Biz (talk) 16:35, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which edition of Treadgold are you using? As far as I can see, none were published in 2002. Please take care when "correcting" the bibliography's sources, because ones that are use will break (you may wish to install User:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors if you haven't already). While we're here, could you also take care to make sure page numbers are formatted—p. for a single page, pp. for multiple? Thanks, ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:24, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies. Using Kindle. I'll use 1997. Will correct with PP. And wondering, can we just use sfnm and avoid sfn? sfnm works for singular references, allows for consistency, reduce learning curve for newer editors, makes it easy to add more source in future. Biz (talk) 20:34, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The thing with sfnm is that it's a massive pain with multiple-author sources. I wonder, is anyone willing to do the grunt work and convert the collected-edition sources into {{harvc}}s? Bit of a faff, but it'll significantly improve the reference layout. Otherwise I'll do that after I've finished the History section. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:06, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On a similar note, I don't like the "12th-century renaissance" section at all. It's part of the arts section, which I am gradually rewriting, but the whole section seems overblown and awkwardly placed: "art, music architecture, literature, (?) 12-century Renaissance". It looks like it should be incorporated in the economy section (where the effect is more covered), and mentioned in the visual arts section where appropriate.
Also, iconoclasm is a bit awkward as well. Mentioned in the history section, and has its own small section. A rewritten art section would also probably include it. Not sure if the dedicated section should be removed or something else. – Aza24 (talk)00:57, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is the time when Greco-Roman knowledge, including Justinians's code transferred to the West so there is a lot that could be written here. Not sure where to put it, but not economy -- but feel free to move somewhere and we will get to it. Perhaps rename it as renaissance and move it in legacy.
The dispute over iconoclasm is a huge topic that impacts art and religion but also relations with western Europe. I don't see an issue if you separately cover it in arts, it's covered in history, and the existing section in religion remains. Kaldellis (2023) went into over-drive to cover Church controversies, not sure if I can stomach reading that again but there's plenty to cover. Biz (talk) 06:18, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am half-considering the benefits of a radically different layout: one where the top-level headings are the history time-periods, and developments in military/arts/religion are made subsections. I think that might help the awkwardness/disjointedness of some sections, but it would mean a complete overhaul and might be a little odd. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:10, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You'd have to give a bit more detail on your layout ideas, but I am highly sympathetic the premise. The current structure is a mess; the Science and medicine sections mix philosophy and science probably more than is warranted (and there's only a single sentence on medicine). The Daily life section is also strange, with only two (rather brief) subsections. Religion might work better as a subsection. The Roman Empire article seems to have a much better structure. Aza24 (talk)01:00, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The value of this approach is that it will likely reduce the word count as sub-headings can be stricter (ie, with military, it talks about political and financial conditions that affected it which may double up in the history narration).
From an experience point of view, having sections on topics that are stand alone in explaining things in one narrative is probably more useful and and less disjointed to a reader. Search engines and AI ingesting this article may appreciate more the additional high level time dimension, especially if time is not segmemented in a section clearly.
From a priorities point of view, it's no longer word count. We can always assess this later when FAR is not risking the star removal as it is now and we are left with a reviewed article to see how it flows and/or doubles up. Easier to edit down and segment later, what's hard is the validation, research and rewrite/expansion now, let's solve the hard first. Biz (talk) 02:28, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You may have seen I've done some work recently on Governance, Military (a new section) and Diplomacy following the review on Society I did six months ago. As much as I enjoy this, I will not be able to continue at a similar pace for what has been asked. This is a call for help for additional reviewers as otherwise the article will lose its feature article status, which will be a shame as it's the longest running Feature Article on Wikipedia.
We need people to review the following sections:
Law
Flags and insignia
economy
Daily life
science and medicine
Religion
Legacy
The article could also do with new sections around demography, clothing and the Relationship with Western Christendom. There's main articles floating around on these topics.
Anyone that can help with issues previously raised would also be of great help;
I've started reviewing the scholarship for Law (though I have completed a big piece of research on Nomos empsychos); @AirshipJungleman29 is knee deep on rewriting/reviewing the rest of history; and @Aza24 is taking point on Arts.
Once all the above is done we are going to take a fresh look at the article and condense it further. At minimum we can reduce some sections, some of which have been expanded and completely rewritten, by moving that work into the main articles. Biz (talk) 20:21, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Biz, I've been following your exemplary work here closely. We could ask some others about some of these remaining sections, I can think of at least two people for the Religion and Science ones. A new user just nominated Poverty in ancient Rome to FAC, perhaps they could look at the economy section here. I'm thinking Iazyges or Borsaka could help out as well. Aza24 (talk)21:07, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello! Thank you for the invite. I have copied the original religion section to my sandbox and will be working there. Feel free to visit and kibbitz. I will bring the completed section here before publishing. I am organizing it chronologically rather than topically, but in doing so, that means covering from the first century to 1453. I will try to keep it as concise as possible. There will be plenty of citations (since I always do) using sfn to the highest quality sources (which will be, of course, verifiable). I will do my best. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:26, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Jenhawk777! Anthony Kaldellis spends an inordinate amount of text covering church controversies in his 2023 history The New Roman Empire. We're using Kaldellis as a baseline for the entire article review as it's the latest scholarship, which is not to say he is correct, but on this topic I know he has a lot to say and that is not covered in other narrative histories. Biz (talk) 20:46, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-3 vital article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
