Talk:Cannonball (LIRR train)

LIRR Cannonball isn't the only Cannonball

Here's a reminder of other trains named "Cannonball" or "Cannon Ball." ---------User:DanTD (talk) 21:23, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Mileage

See Talk:Port Washington Branch#Milage and Talk:Long Island Rail Road#Mileage. The mileage numbers used in this article are (through no fault of its own) wrong in two ways:

• The distance given for Jamaica (9.3 miles) is the distance from Jamaica to Long Island City via the Main Line, not to Penn. That distance is actually 11.3 miles.
• The distances for the Montauk Branch stations are all computed to Long Island City via the Montauk Branch, so they're all off by a little under two miles.

The actual distance from Penn to Montauk, looking at a 1945 Official Guide (unsuitable for this article, we need something modern), is around 117.4 miles. Mackensen (talk) 10:23, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Cannonball (LIRR train)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: ComplexRational (talk · contribs) 22:16, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Pi.1415926535 (talk · contribs) 05:18, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

@Pi.1415926535: Thanks for taking up this review. I'll start looking through your comments later today. ^Complex/_Rational 13:29, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

@ComplexRational: Great work on this complex subject. All my comments are addressed, so happy to pass now. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 22:37, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Infobox

• Per MOS:SMALLFONT, smaller text sizes should not be used in infoboxes
• No period needed in the caption
• Add alt text for all images
• The LIRR is generally considered a commuter rail service - is there any source that labels this an intercity service?

  I doubt that, so I removed the mention of intercity rail, even if many of the train's customers aren't typical commuters. ^Complex/_Rational 00:29, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

• "Operating" is not needed - that parameter is for suspended/former/modified services
• "Coach" does not need to be capitalized in the class (which should have the bullet removed) or the equipment type
• Add "locomotive" after DM30AC for clarification
• The RDT is missing Amagansett
• "Northeast United States" can be removed, as it's redundant to "Long Island"
• Amtrak owns a section of the route (New York Penn to Harold interlocking)

  The infobox now says that Amtrak owns that segment of track and LIRR owns the rest. ^Complex/_Rational 00:29, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Lede

• Hatnote not needed per MOS:NAMB
• The lede should have brief mentions of current equipment and route length in the first paragraph

  Added both to the first paragraph. ^Complex/_Rational 00:29, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

• I would consider expanding the lede to three paragraphs, with two of them history, given the length of the article. This would allow for major events to be mentioned.

  Still working on this. ^Complex/_Rational 00:29, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

  Okay, just let me know when you're done so I can review. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 22:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

  @Pi.1415926535: I've expanded the lead; you can review it whenever you're ready. ^Complex/_Rational 02:46, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

  Looks good. As an FYI, citations aren't generally required in the lede per WP:LEDECITE (except for certain items like quotes). I don't generally have them in articles I write, but there's nothing wrong with having them.

Cannon Ball and Sunrise Special

• The license for these two images requires them to have been published - not merely taken - before 1929. While the 1899 image may be allowed as PD-old-assumed, the 1923 image will need proof of the original publication.

  I'm not quite sure how to verify that – I had assumed that since digital photo storage did not exist at the time, and this wasn't from a lost and later rediscovered collection, its print in 1923 would count for establishing PD status. In any case, I removed the image from the article. ^Complex/_Rational 00:29, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

  @ComplexRational: Publication has a surprisingly strict legal definition - see Commons:Publication for the gory details. In general, we can't assume that an old photo was published in the legal sense unless it's known to have been used in a book, magazine, postcard, etc. Often, photos or negatives sat in archives or private collections for decades before being published. In this case, while the photo is known to have been taken in 1923, there's no guarantee that it was actually published until much later when it appeared on that website and in the 2004 book. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 06:11, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

• Unless a source specifically identifies the 1870s express as the ancestor of the Cannonball, we can only say that express service was offered by the 1870s.

  I rewrote parts of this paragraph. I'm not aware of sources that explicitly make this connection, but I discovered that "cannon ball" was once a more generic term for limited-stop trains, so added that and several other occurrences to the article. Please let me know if there are any outstanding concerns with the new additions. ^Complex/_Rational 00:29, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

• Similarly, the source confirms that it was known as "Cannon-ball" by 1893, but doesn't say when that nickname originated.

  It was both a general term and applied in this case by Austin Corbin – added and cited both. ^Complex/_Rational 00:29, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

• Link Montauk Branch somewhere in the sentence about the extension to Montauk
• I don't love the trainsarefun source; it may be a self-published source. I would replace it with other sources where possible.

  All three of them? ^Complex/_Rational 00:29, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

  @ComplexRational: Right now I see two sources attributed to that website. "LONG ISLAND RAIL ROAD Alphabetical Station Listing and History" appears to be self-published and should be avoided when possible. The first use is already with several newspaper citations; the other two are with the station opening dates that really aren't relevant to this article.

  The other is "Named Trains of the Long Island Rail Road", which isn't actually from that site at all. It's published by the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society, and I have no concerns about it.

  I removed all except that last one. ^Complex/_Rational 17:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

  More of the review to come tomorrow. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 06:19, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

  Sounds good. I had already started replacing them, but now all but the "Named Trains" reference are present and I also removed the station opening dates from the list. ^Complex/_Rational 14:10, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

• This first paragraph is very long; I would recommend splitting it.

  Having added a few more details, I split it into three shorter paragraphs. ^Complex/_Rational 00:29, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

• Is the date of the first Cannon Ball Express trip known?

  June 9, 1899, as far as I can tell. Added. ^Complex/_Rational 00:29, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

  • Excellent, though the date is mistyped in the citation

    Fixed now. ^Complex/_Rational 17:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

• Source 15 (Stadler) is self-published and thus not generally considered reliable. I would recommend trying to obtain a copy of the source he gives for the 1927 change.

  I replaced both this and the other Stadler citation with newspaper references. The source Stadler cites is a magazine which I'm not sure is digitized. ^Complex/_Rational 00:29, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

• "Pullman" should always be capitalized.

LIRR decline and regrowth (1930–1965)

• The first sentence here is confusing. Did the LIRR stop running cross-island service between the forks, or did they stop running services from NYC that served both forks with different sections?

  All I could find was that the Cannonball was permanently rerouted via the Montauk Branch with a single consist. I'm not sure whether cross-island service existed at any point (it certainly doesn't exist now), though it's not pertinent in any case, so I cut that part out. ^Complex/_Rational 17:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

• Source needed for the addition of the Bellport and Center Moriches stops

  Added a source for Center Moriches. For Bellport, I can't find a source for when it was added as a stop, but the 1952 Patchogue Advance article clearly indicates its removal as a stop. Thoughts? ^Complex/_Rational 17:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

  I wasn't able to find a source for the addition either. I think it's fine just not mentioning the station for now. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 22:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

• Move At this time... two sentences up to be with the other 1934 changes
• Please clip all Newspapers.com articles so that they can be more easily accessed

  Done. ^Complex/_Rational 17:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

• If I'm understanding correctly, the Cannon Ball stopped using the Manorville Branch with the 1934 changes? If that's the case, it should explicitly say so in the text, and the information about the later abandonment of the branch can be omitted.

  That is correct. It's now in the first sentence and I removed the part about the Manorville Branch being abandoned. ^Complex/_Rational 17:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

• Clarify that the 1950 reincarnation was with diesels, and give an exact date if available
• new rolling stock would be --> new rolling stock was
• Since the train was already using diesels by 1950, the 1955 end of steam elsewhere on the system doesn't need to be mentioned.

MTA takeover (1965–2013)

• Railroad Director of Special Services: give the date for this
• Four seasonal Friday trains, including the Cannonball: missing comma after Cannonball. I recommend splitting this long sentence in two.

  Split where the semicolon was. ^Complex/_Rational 17:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

• diesel coaches --> diesel-hauled coaches
• Source needed for the locomotive replacement footnote

Dual-mode service (2013–present)

• Was the stop at Jamaica eliminated in both directions, or only eastbound?

  Eastbound only; fixed. ^Complex/_Rational 17:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

• Add "between those points" after "94 minutes"
• would run --> ran
• increased by more than 100% --> more than doubled

Operation

• Cite needed for Amagansett platform length
• I'd recommend something like Dual-mode trains such as the Cannonball only use the 750 volt DC third rail to go through the East River Tunnels, rather than the full length of the electrified lines.

  Reworded. ^Complex/_Rational 01:38, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

• Thanks to this express segment... Split this sentence in two
• Looks like the LIRR fare table was updated two days ago

  I updated the date in the article, though the last major fare change was August 20, 2023. ^Complex/_Rational 01:38, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Stations

• "Town/City" --> "Municipality"
• No need to list the on-demand zones separately from regular service

References etc

• Several references have redlinked newspapers; those links can be removed.
• Source 85 is from a blog and should be replaced or removed

  Replaced with an archived timetable – I needed a reference to show that Hamptons Reserve service still existed in 2019. ^Complex/_Rational 01:38, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

• Source 86, as mentioned above, is from the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society, not trainsarefun.

Overall

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check.

   a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 talk 19:29, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

The Cannonball

• ... that the Cannonball (pictured) is the only Long Island Rail Road train still known by its historic name?

• Source: [1] The only named train operated by the L.I.R.R., the Cannonball first traveled these tracks in the 1890s as an express train between Long Island City and Southampton.

• ALT1: ... that the Cannonball (pictured), a commuter train on the Long Island Rail Road, once operated exclusively with parlor cars? Source: [2] This summer it will have all-parlor car trains on the long runs to the twin tips of Long Island.; [3] ...from May to October, the railroad runs the Cannonball Express, which McNamara called the only all-parlor-car train in the country.
• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Project Ketch
• Comment: I would prefer the hook to run on a Friday, since the train runs on summer Fridays.

Improved to Good Article status by ComplexRational (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 8 past nominations.

^Complex/_Rational 14:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: for ALT1 as I think folks will want to click on parlor car and it meets the criteria. For ALT0, the name bit didn't really make me want to read more into it. I'm also not convinced that the source for ALT0 fully backs up the claim, as it says it's the only one known by a name, not necessarily that it is still known by the same name. Seems a bit synthy. Grk1011 (talk) 13:46, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

@Grk1011: Thanks for the review. There are a couple of other sources throughout the article indicating other named trains no longer run, plus the 2024 timetable and press release that mention the name, but I'm cool sticking with ALT1. ^Complex/_Rational 14:38, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Cannonball Adderley

A reference of the name for this train coming from the jazz sax player is only from a single newpaper article sentence from Pennsylvania. And, the first topic on this talk page enumerates many trains around the USA with the name Cannonball in them. And, the history part of the article enumerates several trains on this very line with Cannonball in the name, most predating the birth of Cannonball Adderley. Thus it was not named after the famous jazz sax player. Dr.gregory.retzlaff (talk) 01:51, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Maybe his name mentioned. FairfieldAve (talk) 03:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)