Talk:Herrenvolk democracy

South Africa

Is the definition of this the rule of a majority over a minority? If so, the example of South Africa must be removed. If this concept is appropriate in apartheid South Africa, then the definition in the opening sentences must be changed. --Michael (talk) 07:23, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

how i understand is that: its a democracy but only for a specific ethnic group, doesnt have to be a minority Braganza (talk) 21:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Majority rule?

If I take the example of (modern-day) Namibia: In 1913, the territory German Southwest Africa had a population of roughly 200.000 pople; about13.000 of those were German. I would expect the situation in South Africa to be similar. If youmake up 1/20th of the population, and you want to rule, it certainly isnt the biggest ethnic group ruling. Wouldn't it be: Using a mix of Social Darwinism, and (possibly changing) alliances with local tribes, you can rule, without giving the local tribes too much influence?Eptalon (talk) 23:13, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Israel

Does Israel not fit into this? 2600:1700:A3F0:6FB0:2997:ECD3:9631:F116 (talk) 18:17, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

they have voting rights (at least most of them) Braganza (talk) 08:32, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

That sounds like a Herrenvolk democracy. Just like the Confederacy, most (whites) had voting rights. 2603:8000:2A00:9F10:34F5:9143:3A5A:F6C0 (talk) 01:49, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

No. The 20% arabic minority in Israel has full voting and citizen rights. They have got heir own parties, representatives in high ranking state positions and so on.

For more on this, check out this article: Arab citizens of Israel#Politics Hannsg.logitech (talk) 10:18, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

yes, the Arabs/Palestinians with Israeli citizenship have Israeli voting rights, but the issue is that the millions of Palestinians who live under de facto Israeli rule do not have Israeli voting rights, while Jewish settlers within the west bank (not de jure Israeli territory) are given Israeli voting rights 2.30.72.200 (talk) 17:17, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

https://www.democracynow.org/2023/9/12/headlines/former_mossad_chief_tamir_pardo_calls_israel_an_apartheid_state Lupinthethird93 (talk) 05:10, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Jewish settlers having voting rights is not something out of the ordinary. If they possess Israeli citizenship, it gives them the right to vote, whether they reside in Israel or not. It's a general rule in democracies that the right to vote for citizens is not limited to the nation's borders: a French, British or Lebanese citizen living outside of their respective countries are just as eligible to vote as those living in said countries.

The fact that Palestinians living in the Palestinian territories have no voting rights with regard to the Israeli representative bodies, is simply because they lack Israeli citizenship. This does not automatically make Israel a Herrenvolk democracy. That would only be the case if the Palestinians in question had Israeli citizenship, yet would be deprived of the right to vote. Or would be barred from acquiring citizenship (with the accompanying voting rights) purely on the basis of their ethnic background, even though they meet all the requirements that apply to people to whom this restriction does not apply. The Palestinian territories are, furthermore, not under the legal (de jure) control of the Israeli state, meaning Israel is legally not obligated nor entitled to grant voting rights to the people living there. 85.145.155.6 (talk) 19:11, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

¨Wikipedia is not biased¨

dO yOuR dAiLy ClIcKs Pip69420 (talk) 13:05, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Rhodesia

I really must question Rhodesia being added to the list. Compared to South Africa with extreme aparteid laws and the Confederate States of America with literal Slavery, Rhodesia was extremely mild. Rhodesia had race issues, but not comparable to these other countries. Use the flags of quite the few European colonies, as well as Nigeria as they too have had opression between peoples similar to Rhodesia. Why not the Third Reich as well? 94.234.111.142 (talk) 14:40, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

National Socialism would be an example for a totalitarian herrenvolk democracy, since there were sham elections, but, after 1935, exluding Jews and others from voting 88.64.206.156 (talk) 19:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

So not a democracy. A totalitarian state with sham elections. The difference is that under South African apartheid the elections were legitimately competitive between the National Party and their white opposition. Flavius717 (talk) 01:30, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

My understanding is that Rhodesia had wealth-based suffrage, which because almost every wealthy person was a white settler from Britain, ended up being a herrenvolk democracy. Ellenor2000 (talk) 15:01, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

India

Does the term necessary have to be limited to societies that marginalize ethnic groups, or can other forms of political exclusion (specifically, those based on religion) qualify as well? India, in recent years, has been widely criticized for rolling back the freedoms of Muslims and other religious minorities, but these are not ethnic groups per se. LonelyBoy2012 (talk) 02:24, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

i don't think so, there aren't expelled from politics "only" surpressed Braganza (talk) 20:49, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Americo-Liberian people and Liberia

After gaining independence in 1847 (and even before), former American slaves migrated to Liberia (resulting in the Americo-Liberian population). Many United States institutions were copied, and two major parties were established: the True Whig Party and the Republican Party. Following the dissolution of the Republican Party in 1876, the True Whig Party dominated Liberian government until the 1980 coup. During this period, Liberia effectively functioned as a stable one-party state, with little politics in the usual sense. However, from 1847 to 1876, Liberian politics closely resembled that of the United States. There were two major parties, and Americo-Liberians controlled both of them and eventually the governement. Americo-Liberians were the only ethnic group with voting rights and indigenous peoples of Liberia were treated as second-class citizens. Consequently, I think Liberia during this time (1847-1871) could be considered a form of Herrenvolk democracy, with Americo-Liberians as the master class participating in democratic elections and the government, while indigenous people held second-class status. Sultán Sahak (talk) 18:29, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Slight edit war over Israel's inclusion or lack thereof?

So I noticed that changes adding and removing Israel from the flag box (why do we even have a flag box?) have been made like five or six times in all. Some of the editors on both sides have been IPs. No single person (assuming good faith by assuming all IPs are separate people) has busted the 3RR. I will note that a different IP from the same ISP as one of the IP reverters (DOL Ankara, AS#12,978) has also, a fairly long time ago in internet time, removed sourced information about Israel possibly being a herrenvolk democracy in the body text of the article (which was since re-added). That also never rose to an edit war.

If any of you are cruising the talk page, I'm not going to ping you because the dispute seems to be over, but... is this an edit war, and is it wrong to point this out? Please advise. Ellenor2000 (talk) 20:06, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Inclusion of Israel in imagebox

Opening the discussion to establish an explicit consensus moving forward. The body text currently states Some scholars and commentators, including Ilan Pappé, Baruch Kimmerling, and Meron Benvenisti, have characterized Israel as a Herrenvolk democracy due to Israel's de facto control of the occupied territories whose native inhabitants may not vote in Israeli elections, with full adherence to verification and neutral point of view, which was then used as the basis for including Israel in the lead image box alongside the other examples of Herrenvolk democracy in order for the lead image to accurately reflect the body of the article. The question now is whether or not Israel should be included in the image box from now on. Orchastrattor (talk) 18:14, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @Untamed1910: @Garsh2: @Votbek: @Braganza: and @Brusquedandelion: as relevant contributors. Orchastrattor (talk) 18:16, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

I think it is a pretty obvious decision to keep, as the RS do not portray the use of the term in the context of Israel to be any less significant that any other use, no one attempting to remove the item has made any argument apart from saying the sourced information is untrue or accusing the article of antisemitism. Orchastrattor (talk) 18:20, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

I'll give you an argument: we're talking about Palestine, not Iraqi Kurdistan. This isn't an autonomous zone granted to a minority offering special status but still legally part of a bigger country, it's a fully independent state with its own governing, legal and juridical body that is recognised by 145 UN member states. As such, Palestinians should not vote in Israeli elections without Israeli citizenship since they're Palestinian citizens, not Israeli ones. Not to mention that if Israel actually got any government officials in Palestine to organise elections, everybody would be rightfully complaining about them infringing on Palestinian independence, but I guess you can't win with antisemites like you. Organising Palestinian elections are the Palestinian Authority's job, not Israel's. 82.76.159.190 (talk) 15:13, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Please familiarize yourself with the core policies of Wikipedia. WP:Neutral point of view and WP:Verifiability require that all articles are written according to published, reliable sources with an absence of original research. The reliable sources cited in this article clearly outline the original authors' reasoning as to the presence of Israeli settlers in occupied territories, any further arguments based on personal opinion rather than verifiable research and reliable sources will likely be ignored.

Wikipedia also has a very strict policy against personal attacks, which may lead to a block or ban if continued. Thank you. Orchastrattor (talk) 16:18, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Palestinian-Authority

https://globalaffairs.org/bluemarble/palestinian-authority-prime-minister-resigns-explainer

https://www.state.gov/reports/2021-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/israel-west-bank-and-gaza/west-bank-and-gaza/

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/who-governs-palestinians

'The Palestinian Authority Basic Law provides for an elected president and legislative council.'

'Palestinian Authority (PA), governing body of the Palestinian autonomous regions of the West Bank and Gaza Strip established in 1994 as part of the Oslo Accords peace agreement between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO)'

'Officially, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) represents Palestinians worldwide at international fora, while the Palestinian Authority (PA), a newer institution led by a PLO faction known as Fatah, is supposed to govern most of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.' 82.76.159.190 (talk) 16:41, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Original research includes drawing original conclusions from sources, none of your sources explicitly state "Israel is not a Herrenvolk democracy". Orchastrattor (talk) 17:08, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

You argument, the only argument for classifying Israel as a Herrenvolk democracy is that Palestinians inside the West Bank and the Gaza Strip cannot vote in Israeli elections. They do not need to, because they have their own government to vote at: the Palestinian Authority. I do not know if you've ever voted or been to a vote, but you need to have a citizenship of the country you wish to vote in before going to the ballots. Palestinians with Israeli citizenship can vote in Israeli elections, Palestinians without Israeli citizenship vote in PA elections, since the PA, not the Israeli government, is their government. It's really quite simple. 82.76.159.190 (talk) 17:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Again I'm not arguing anything, I am just restating what the sources say. The reliable sources clearly explain how Israel is pushing for citizens to settle occupied areas without granting the civilians there citizenship, if it is enough for the sources to make the claim then it is enough for Wikipedia to make the claim. Orchastrattor (talk) 17:28, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

It is not enough for one source or another to make a claim. The claim has to be verifiable and ACCURATE. The media is full of claims, from plausible to complete aberrations, and frankly, putting Israel in the same group as the likes of the Confederate States, apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia is amongst them. The Israeli settlers are Israeli citizens and as such get to vote in Israeli elections. The locals are still Palestinian citizens and as such vote in PA elections, not Israeli ones. Should they change their citizenship to Israeli, they would get voting rights, but we both know that one side is as stubborn as the other. Now, the matter of the settlements themselves, while deplorable, is another issue altogether and is unrelated as to whether or not Israel can be classified as a Herrevonfolk democracy. A Herrevonfolk democracy is one where CITIZENS of the country are discriminated on based on their ethnicity, often to the advantage of a certain other ethnicity. Neither of those conditions can be seen in Israel. 82.76.159.190 (talk) 17:56, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

If a claim is published in a reliable source then it is accurate, any opinion to the contrary is original research. See above under "claiming [...] sourced information is incorrect". Orchastrattor (talk) 18:26, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

https://m.jpost.com/international/article-760350

https://medium.com/@LiatBenZur/no-israel-is-not-an-apartheid-state-heres-why-feebb22f9b55

https://www.jstor.org/stable/41575857

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4343950

As per the 1948 declaration of independence: 82.76.159.190 (talk) 19:03, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

My copied excerpt doesn't appear. I'll have to type it manually. Just great... 82.76.159.190 (talk) 19:04, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

We appeal - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions. 82.76.159.190 (talk) 19:09, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

https://static.timesofisrael.com/blogs/uploads/2023/09/Constitution-for-Israel.pdf

See Article 8 Section 3 and Article 9 Paragraphs A and C 82.76.159.190 (talk) 19:11, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Again, none of these make any direct claim on the subject of the article, this is more synthesizing of separate materials and not an actually admissible claim. Orchastrattor (talk) 19:23, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I do not see any claim more direct that the 'Israel is not an apartheid sate' plastered on the head of every one of those articles. Apartheid and Herrenvolk democracies share the exact same principle. I also find it extremely laughable that one of the three sources in the wiki article is Al Jazeera, the Qatari news outlet. The same Qatar that houses Hamas leaders and provides material support to Hamas. So much for 'neutral point of view'. Rules for me but not for thee, as they say. 82.76.159.190 (talk) 20:04, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

• for thee but not for me* Dammit, how did I mess this up?

82.76.159.190 (talk) 20:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

If the sources do not directly mention Herrenvolk democracy then they are not directly relevant to an article on Herrenvolk democracy, it's a very straightforward concept. "Apartheid and Herrenvolk democracies share the exact same principle" is just more synthesis. Orchastrattor (talk) 20:58, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

If a state allows voting from all ethnic groups, it is by definition not a Herrenvolk democracy. Israel allows ethnically Palestinian citizens of Israel to vote. Ergo it is not a Herrenvolk democracy. Most Palestinians within Israeli-controlled land are not Israeli citizens and so are disenfranchised. That is a different issue, and it's just not Herrenvolk democracy. Strongly disagree with the infobox. If nothing else, best to keep countries that clearly are examples of the term instead of stretching it to make a political point. Bruhpedia (talk) 02:58, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

As Brusquedandelion said, the four countries in question are the four given by the reliable sources, whether or not you personally feel something is politically motivated or not has no bearing on what is appropriate for inclusion on Wikipedia. Orchastrattor (talk) 04:34, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Apart from what @Orchastrattor has said, I'd add that the three states that are uncontroversially in the infobox plus Israel are, canonically, the four herrenvolk democracies that invariably come up in association with the scholarly usage of the term. It would be against WP:NPOV, in particular, WP:DUE, to include the other three and not Israel. Brusquedandelion (talk) 00:36, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I have nothing new to add but I concur with the reasoning above. Garsh (talk) 03:06, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I accidentally triggered the edit war by adding the image back in May. I honestly don't think it's that useful have the imagebox at all, but if it is in the article, Israel should be included per the included sources. मल्ल (talk) 17:50, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I feel like the inclusion of Israel in the imagebox specifically could be argued against since it's only included in the article in one sentence, which is about some scholars' opinions. The opinions from known scholars in an article is good of course, but it's just that the imagebox seems very provocative to some people for this very reason.

Also, the article specifically uses the occupied territories as an argument, and not Israel proper. Which is why it's controversial to keep the country's flag in the imagebox.

Peace. MeManBlaze (talk) 02:49, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

All Herrenvolk democracies use some sort of legal fiction to maintain the pretense of democracy. Israel is somewhat unique in its choice of that legal fiction being the nominally separate status of the so-called occupied territories, which de facto are under Israeli sovereigty. But I say "somewhat unique" because even that is not wholly unprecedented, see: Bantustans. So it really isn't demonstrating anything of relevance to point to the existence of such a specious ruse; in fact, the very existence of such an artifice is evidence in favor of Israel's status as a Herrenvolk democracy. Normal democracies do not have "occupied territories" for 57 years (57 is an entirely generous lower bound). Brusquedandelion (talk) 05:11, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

It's definitely a unique situation. I'm just talking about the pure definition of the term. I'm not speaking of any opinions.

But I'm neutral whether it should be in the imagebox or not. MeManBlaze (talk) 16:03, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

A somewhat closer analogy would be if South Africa had disenfranchised Bantustans but allowed coloured voting in South Africa proper, which, while not good, would by definition, not be an example of a herrenvolk democracy, because the franchise is not restricted to a certain ethnicity. Israel's inclusion seems like more of a political statement than an objective one, and I don't see a reason for Wikipedia to take a subjective stand on such a controversial, no-win issue. Bruhpedia (talk) 03:04, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Rhodesia permitted black people to vote, in principle, provided they met the various property, literacy, etc. qualifications. Surely you do not think Rhodesia + Bantustans is somehow less of a Herrenvolk democracy. Brusquedandelion (talk) 08:20, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

This is complete and utter bullshit. The Palestinian territories are independent in all but name. Citizens of Palestine cannot vote in Israeli elections BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT CITIZENS OF ISRAEL, THEY ARE CITIZENS OF PALESTINE. As such, their government isn't the Israeli government but the Palestinian National Authority, which is an independent governing body that Israel doesn't have control over, and where Palestinians can vote because it actually is their damn government. Not to mention that if any Israeli officials tried to organise any elections there, or even interfere in their politics, they'd get killed by terrorists and everyone on this Earth would be saying that they're infringing Palestine's independence. So make up your minds. Is it independent or not? 82.76.159.190 (talk) 15:02, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

true Pip69420 (talk) 13:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Orchastrattor problem with Theirs interpretation is that officaly this regions are part Palestine so is logical there is not Herrvolk democracy in Israel becouse there is no israel.it was part of it in 1993 after after Oslo I but sadly nothing change 178.79.74.212 (talk) 20:20, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Whether or not you personally believe a statement to be true has no impact on its inclusion on Wikipedia, if the reliable sources find Kimmerling's inobjectionable enough to publish without correction then it is fit to include on Wikipedia. Orchastrattor (talk) 21:13, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Including Israel in this article essentially makes it redundant with ethnocracy. Herrenvolk democracies were much more open about discrimination, and their laws explicitly categorized certain groups as second-class citizens and/or completely denaturalized former citizens. If users insist on mentioning Israel here, we might as well merge the two articles. 98.21.199.197 (talk) 16:20, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

The reliable sources characterize Israel as a Herrenvolk democracy. If the sources treat Herrenvolk democracy as a distinct sub-type of ethnocracy then it is only reasonable to treat the article as a distinct sub-topic of ethnocracy. Orchastrattor (talk) 16:47, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

There are also sources that label Israel as an ethnic democracy, which has two implications: 1) we should probably add that caveat afterwards as other articles typically do on contested topics, and 2) remove the flag (or all them, not sure why we need a flagbox), as the status of the other three as Herrenvolk democracies is less contested.

Offhandedly, someone should also probably mention Syria and Algeria in this article since they adopted Herrenvolk nationality laws in the early 1960s. 98.21.199.197 (talk) 18:41, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

If a source doesn't directly mention herrenvolk democracy then it isn't directly relevant to an article on herrenvolk democracy, the mere existence of alternate viewpoints does not necessitate a view be marked as controversial. Orchastrattor (talk) 21:56, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Braganza @Hannsg.logitech @Lupinthethird93 @Bruhpedia @Brusquedandelion @Garsh2 @MeManBlaze @Orchastrattor @मल्ल

I have serious doubts that the cited sources represent a consensus among mainstream scholars that Israel is a Herrenvolk democracy. Mindful of WP:REDFLAG when making extraordinary claims of fact, especially of a highly negative nature, there needs to be a very broad consensus among reliable secondary sources. The sources cited, strictly speaking do not appear to be secondary. Although scholarly in their nature, they are essentially op-ed pieces. Are there any reliable secondary sources that quote or cite these works in asserting Israel is a Herrenvolk democracy? I would point out the huge controversy following the death of Fidel Castro over whether or not he could be labeled a dictator in wiki-voice. Despite the fact that he was widely described as such in reliable sources, the community declined to so label him in wiki-voice because sources would have to be unanimous or very close to it. I don't object to mentioning the opinions, or the sources. However I do think that putting Israel's flag up constitutes a formal endorsement of those claims by the community. That's a bridge too far for me unless there are a lot more sources, including mainstream secondary ones. For now, I think the flag should come down. -Ad Orientem (talk) 05:02, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

remove it Braganza (talk) 05:27, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, but your comment is not constructive. Please provide reasoning for your position. WP:CONSENSUS is reached via discussion, and simple +/- votes like your comment do not help establish consensus. Brusquedandelion (talk) 05:56, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Ok, then:

Israeli-Arabs have voting rights so it only really applies to the West Bank to begin with so its less race based than the other three examples Braganza (talk) 06:51, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

the arguments/accusations should be rather in the main text than in the image description Braganza (talk) 06:54, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Do Jewish settlers in the West Bank and their Palestinian neighbors have equal political rights? Brusquedandelion (talk) 08:09, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

you got me wrong Braganza (talk) 08:18, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Israel inside the Green line is not

West Bank maybe, calling Israel itself a Herrenvolk democracy and presenting the Israeli flag is misleading imo Braganza (talk) 08:20, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

It's not really up to you, or me. Factually scholars have classified Israel as a Herrenvolk democracy; perhaps they feel that the distinction your are making is one without a difference. If you can find a reliable source saying something along the lines of what you're saying, there may be a discussion to be had about including that in the article as well. Brusquedandelion (talk) 08:22, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the cited sources [do not] represent a consensus among mainstream scholars that Israel is a Herrenvolk democracy. Fortunately, the caption under the flags makes no assertion to the contrary, stating only that the flags are of nations which have been proposed as examples of Herrenvolk democracy. Factually, Israel is commonly and frequently cited by many reputable sources as a Herrenvolk democracy. That is not just grounds enough for the page to mention it, but in fact actually requires that the page do so, in line with WP:DUE; it does not need to rise to the level of unanimity or consensus. Remember, Wikipedia is not WP:CENSORED. And remember that per MOS:LEAD, leads should summarize the body: if Israel is commonly cited as an example of a Herrenvolk democracy, it follows that the article itself must note this fact in the body, from which it follows the same point must be mentioned in the lead. A set of flags indicating the four nations which most commonly receive the Herrenvolk democracy label is a succinct way to do this, and at any rate it doesn't sound like you have some stylistic objection to flags in general—you specifically want to censor mentions of Israel from the lead. As a for your attempt to invoke WP:REDFLAG, this is laughable on its face; that policy is meant to be directed against Holocaust denialism and chemtrails, not against a mainstream scholarly position held by numerous respected and reputable academics, such as the view that Israel is a Herrenvolk democracy. That not all scholars agree on this does not mean it is exceptional. Brusquedandelion (talk) 05:54, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps there's no need to have an infobox of countries that have been proposed as examples of Herrenvolk democracy if such countries definitionally aren't, then. I, or anyone else, could propose that America is a monarchy, but that doesn't mean it should be in an infobox on the article for monarchy.

Additionally, someone just recently added mention of Israel to the article, and the infobox far predates that. It's a case of modifying the body to meet the incredibly controversial lead rather than vice versa, and it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise. Wikipedia does not exist to push a viewpoint, and the existence of academics willing to criticize Israel does not make those criticisms valid or worth summarizing, especially when, again, Israel is by definition not a Herrenvolk democracy, because Arabs can vote.

If you have another definition of the term, in which some residents are disenfranchised by region but not by race, please make it, but that is not what this page is about.

Bruhpedia (talk) 07:09, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps there's no need to have an infobox of countries that have been proposed as examples of Herrenvolk democracy if such countries definitionally aren't, then.

Your opinion that these countries are "definitionally" not Herrenvolk democracies is just that: your opinion. Reliable sources discuss them as such.

I, or anyone else, could propose that America is a monarchy,

Just as you are currently proposing that Israel, and possibly the other states mentioned in the article, are not Herrenvolk democracies. Fortunately, your proposal has no bearing on Wikipedia content in and of itself.

Additionally, someone just recently added mention of Israel to the article, and the infobox far predates that. It's a case of modifying the body to meet the incredibly controversial lead rather than vice versa, and it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

Israel has been mentioned in the body of the article as far back as 2014, and it is tremendously disingenuous for you to claim otherwise, as if Wikipedia article histories were not a matter of public record. The recent edit warring on this, in which people tried to remove all references to Israel, is a deviation from ten years of consensus to include Israel in the body of this page.

Wikipedia does not exist to push a viewpoint, and the existence of academics willing to criticize Israel does not make those criticisms valid or worth summarizing,

Sorry, but again, Wikipedia is not WP:CENSORED. If reputable sources are criticizing Israel, then, in fact, Wikipedia must mention those criticisms on the appropriate pages, per WP:DUE. You do not get to personally decided whether reputable sources are "valid or worth summarizing". This comment suggests you are grossly unfamiliar with Wikipedia policy on WP:BIAS and WP:RS. I suggest reviewing those pages before discussing this matter further here.

especially when, again, Israel is by definition not a Herrenvolk democracy, because Arabs can vote.

This is just your own opinion. I could go into why reputable sources disagree with your assessment—for example, the view that Israel has de facto imposed a single state solution between the river and the sea, and thus any estimation of Israel's "democratic" character must take into account the political status of the Palestinians in the Bantustans of the West Bank and Gaza. There are yet other arguments; instead of me telling you, though, it might be more helpful for you yourself to read the reliable sources yourselves. When you do, please provide a brief summary of their points so we know you have honestly engaged with the scholarship rather than dismissing any criticism of Israel out of hand. And remember, Herrenvolk democracies are not wholly undemocratic. That's the whole point! Black Rhodesians could also, in principle, vote. In practice, the white minority's hold on power was ensured via a variety of means, without ever passing a law that explicitly forbade black Africans from voting. That some Arabs under the hegemonic power of Israel can vote is, then, not at all inherently at odds with the Herrenvolk classification, or even exceptional.

If you have another definition of the term, in which some residents are disenfranchised by region but not by race,

It is nakedly obvious that that is not the situation in Israel, given that, at this very moment, in towns throughout the West Bank, there are neighboring Jewish settlers and Palestinians, the former of which have complete rights to participate in all the avenues of political life in the Israeli state, while the latter have none. But again, that's not me saying this; it's what the reliable sources say, and it is the reliable sources we must report. Brusquedandelion (talk) 08:08, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I'd absolutely agree. It's so politically charged that this has become intractable, but per the article's description of the term, Israel is definitionally not a Herrenvolk democracy unless you ignore the existence of Arab citizens of Israel. All politics aside, it just doesn't appear to be one, and, if it is described as such by subjective sources, this appears to be false. Bruhpedia (talk) 06:59, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

per the article's description of the term, Israel is definitionally not a Herrenvolk democracy

Sorry, but reliable sources disagree with you. Brusquedandelion (talk) 08:09, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

To what @Orchastrattor has written, I would like to add, since there has been some apparent confusion on this, that the article has mentioned that some scholars classify Israel as a Herrenvolk democracy since at least as far back as 2014. We have 10 years of consensus to keep this in the article; really the only thing being disputed here, for some reason, is whether the lead should mention it too. But MOS:LEAD is clear the lead should summarize the body.

Now removing this from body should be—and anyone familiar with Wikipedia policy and the relevant facts should find this obvious—a complete non-starter, since that is tantamount to WP:CENSORSHIP. But if someone wanted to go down that road, since WP:BOLD editing removing mentions to Israel have been challenged, such a person would need to build consensus for the removal, and in the meantime, the page should continue to mention Israel, per the WP:BRD cycle. Brusquedandelion (talk) 08:17, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I think we may be close to the point where this should be handled with an RfC. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

RfC Should the Israeli Flag be displayed in the article?

Question Should the Israeli flag be displayed in the article? Please refer to the various discussions and comments above. When commenting please remember that this is WP:NOTAVOTE and to cite applicable policy and guidelines where possible. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:21, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes:

1. Yes Per MOS:LEAD. Israel has been proposed as an example of a Herrenvolk democracy by scholars, as stated in the cited sources, which are reliable and scholarly. While I am iffy on the need for an imagebox at all, as most articles on types of government do not, that's another conversation. So long as there is an imagebox, it is WP:DUE to include Israel. मल्ल (talk) 19:40, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Yes per original discussion. The subject is already a relatively obscure term so the amount of specific mentions or lack thereof do not have any actual bearing on how notable Kimmerling's use of the term is compared to previous usage. Kimmerling's views are corroborated between multiple geopolitically diverse reliable sources, it passes any standard any other application of the term does. Orchastrattor (talk) 22:22, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

No:

1. No Per WP:REDFLAG. The cited sources do not represent a mainstream consensus on the subject. Including the flag is WP:UNDUE, and arguably gives the impression that this is a generally accepted position which creates serious WP:NPOV issues. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:27, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
2. No Israel extends its citizenship (and voting rights) to around 2 million Israeli Arabs, thus it does not meet the definition of a Herrenvolk democracy. The sources provided are largely not neutral, seemingly do not use the term correctly. Melmann 16:35, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

   The sources are from scholars published in reliable sources. Your claim that they are not neutral and not using the term correctly is pure original research. If there are reliable sources stating what you're saying, please add it to the article, otherwise this comment is pointless. मल्ल (talk) 19:21, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

   Verifiability not truth. Kimmerling already addresses that line of thinking in his writing, if RS do not see it as a logical inconsistency then it isn't a logical inconsistency. Orchastrattor (talk) 22:13, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

   Al Jazeera is not a reliable source when it comes to Arab — Israeli conflict, so I will not consider it. The NYTimes source can't even define Herrenvolk correctly, saying a regime in which citizens enjoy full rights and non-citizens have none, which is incorrect, and besides, it is an opinion piece, thus not representative of the NYTimes editorial standard, and the last one is barely a trivial mention and also very old, which weaken it substantially.
   

   Clearly, this position is weakly supported, if not downright fringe, especially given how controversial it is, and until better sources are available, I cannot support it. Melmann 16:25, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

   Israel simply doesn't disenfranchise based on ethnicity, so it is definitionally not a Herrenvolk democracy. Q.E.D.

   Just because scholars argue something does not make that thing objective. Scholars are famously rarely in agreement. Reliable sources have robust opinion sections, and it's our job to not accept anything in such an outlet unquestioningly.

   It also seems silly to have an infobox of countries that "have been described as Herrenvolk democracies", rather than countries that objectively fit such a definition. There are enough out there to have a full infobox without wading into controversy.

   Bruhpedia (talk) 02:35, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

General Discussion:

I think we should rather focus on expanding #Characteristics and there should be elaboration about each of the 4/5 cases (Apartheid, Rhodesia, CSA, post-Reconstruction South and West Bank). I don't think showing the Israeli flag is representative since (unlike the other 3/4 cases) the Arabs within the Green Line have full voting rights and it only applies to the West Bank if so we should show the West Bank flag – which doesn't exist. Braganza (talk) 17:14, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't have its own flag because its de jure under the State of Palestine, the sources bring up the term "herrenvolk" because Israel is attempting to establish de facto control by having Jewish-Israeli citizens move in and keep their citizenship while denying citizenship to the Arab locals. The accusation wouldn't be getting made if there wasn't an Israeli political presence in WB, hence the use of the Israeli flag to represent the situation. Orchastrattor (talk) 18:13, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

thats the thing, the "herrenvolk democracy" if it exists, exists only in the West Bank, Arabs within the Green Line can vote Braganza (talk) 18:40, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

As the West Bank isn't in the state of Israel, it might be a more correct compromise to put a Palestinian flag up, then, but I don't think that would make anyone happy. Bruhpedia (talk) 02:40, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I am not saying we should put the Palestinian flag up, im saying that its not a state which has a Herrenvolk democracy but a region Braganza (talk) 06:26, 16 August 2024 (UTC)