Talk:Islam
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Muhammad (SAW) was not the founder in islam.He was the last prophet in Islam
[edit]This topic has already been answered. The discussion has delved into a forum-type debate about religion rather than a discussion of sourcing. Please refrain from commenting further unless it follows the standards of WP:NPOV. |
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Mohammad (SAW) was not the the founder of Islam, he was the last prophet in Islam. Before him estimate 1,24,000 prophet was sent to earth to spread beauty of Islam. 2409:40E1:D:2AD:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 17:54, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
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Muslim demographics section is problematic
[edit]You have to define precisely whom you count as a Muslim. For example a recent poll from Iran said that less than 40% of Iranians consider themselves Muslims today, and yet the maps and figures in this article claim that islam is the religion of more than 90% of Iranians. The same can be said about other countries. Muslim demographics also there are two denomanatians in islam 1.sunni 2. shia articles totally ignore the statistics about atheists, agnostics, apostates, converts to christianity and non-believers of all sorts. They simply count everyone born within a traditionnally Muslim society as Muslim. To be fair, this isn't the way christianity figures are constructed. The numbers estimated for christianity are those of the estimated actual believers, not people born in Christian cultures. How do you plan to correct this bias ? Yorik18 (talk) 21:12, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- Greetings,
We cannot, but it would be great if such definitions would be clarified in such statistics. However, it is rarely done. We can only work with what sources provide us.You have to define precisely whom you count as a Muslim
There is a difference between Christianity and Islam in regards of adherence. A Christian is made by baptism and every person is born "sinful" (this is also why a lot of babies were baptized when born and babies unbaptized led to the Catholic limbo-theory). In Islam, a child born from Muslim parents are consdiered Muslims. It does not have to be a conscious choice, you probably do not even have to believe in it. There are some opinions which constitute [[[Apostasy in Islam|Apostasy]], but they are not clearly defined. For some, missing a prayer can lead to Apostasy (I think some Hanbalites hold this position), while others even interprted angels as merely abstract intellects and are still highly esteemed scholars of Islam (such as ibn Sina). Because of these reasons, Muslim and Christian identity are hardly comparable. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 19:18, 23 February 2024 (UTC)The numbers estimated for christianity are those of the estimated actual believers, not people born in Christian cultures
- I'm glad someone else raised this matter, as I've raised a similar issue before on another Islamic related article. For example, in Gambia and Senegal, the Muslim population is hyped up. There is no disagreement that most people in these countries are majority Muslim, but the figures do not tally and their statistical data in regards to Muslim populations is not even reliable. It is simply based on guess work especially Gambia. As such, many reliable sources cite these unreliable government figures. However, organisations and other RS who work and do research in these countries would tell you that almost 100% of the Muslim population syncretise with African religion.Tamsier (talk) 11:43, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- I will profess I am not familiar with RSs on this topic. But it sounds like an issue in definition: those who practice Islam likely are a smaller subgroup within those traditionally considered "culturally" Muslim. Delineating between the two might be helpful. Jtrevor99 (talk) 19:54, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm glad someone else raised this matter, as I've raised a similar issue before on another Islamic related article. For example, in Gambia and Senegal, the Muslim population is hyped up. There is no disagreement that most people in these countries are majority Muslim, but the figures do not tally and their statistical data in regards to Muslim populations is not even reliable. It is simply based on guess work especially Gambia. As such, many reliable sources cite these unreliable government figures. However, organisations and other RS who work and do research in these countries would tell you that almost 100% of the Muslim population syncretise with African religion.Tamsier (talk) 11:43, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Picture depicting Prophet Mohammed should be removed
[edit]The picture depicting Muhammad leading Abraham, Moses, Jesus and other prophets in prayer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#/media/File:Medieval_Persian_manuscript_Muhammad_leads_Abraham_Moses_Jesus.jpg User583489 (talk) 16:58, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Why? Seems a reasonable part of that section per MOS:IMAGES. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- It is considered bad in Islam to depict any prophets or God (or other major figures) that you do not know what they look like. 2600:1700:81D8:16A0:54AB:4E67:9E6:1B2D (talk) 22:41, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- This is not an Islamic encyclopedia, and the prohibitions of Islam have no influence on Wikipedia. Cullen328 (talk) 22:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- Additionally, both WP:NPOV and WP:IMGCONTENT make clear Wikipedia requires a neutral point of view and allows encyclopedic images even when shocking to some. Jtrevor99 (talk) 22:47, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Change type to Abrahamic?
[edit]Over at Talk:Christianity there has been some contention over whether Abrahamic or Universal religion is a better fit for Type in the Infobox. The primary justification for “universal religion” has been the fact it’s used here. But “Abrahamic” seems more notable for both. Thoughts? Jtrevor99 (talk) 18:54, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- "Abrahamic" is more familiar to me, I can say that much. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:13, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Abrahamic is given its own descriptor in the classification line. I guess we should wait to see what the outcome of the discussion at the Christianity talk page is before making changes here. The debate is if "Universal religion" should be left in or not. Completely Random Guy (talk) 22:24, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- After recently cleaning up unreliable sources from Abrahamic religions, I realized that the term has a few more issues than it seems on the first glance. The term originates from Interfaith dialogue and entered academic discourse. However, the academic validity has also been criticized, for oversimplification.[1] While there are prominent similarities, such as Creatio ex nihilo[2] and veneration of a Creator-deity, there are also significant differences.
- Other similarities are only shared on the surface level. For example, all three feature Abraham, but the role ascribed to this figure is different. Both Islam and Christianity share the return of Jesus, but while in Islam, it is more or less an aggadic narrative featuring some end-time battles with barely to no theological significance at all, in Christianity it is a closure of the history of mankind (as per Christian teachings). Other concepts often mistakenly considered "typical Abrahamic", like hell, are not even precisely Abrahamic at all (Karmic religions do feature hell as well, whereas Judaism not necessarily).
- Besides these "intra-religious" differences, there also has been objection from an ethno-historical perspective. Islam, as a religion spread through Asia is also an Asia religion, not (only) a religion surrounding the Mediterranean Sea.[3] Christianity spread across Europe and incorporated European ideas, whereas Islam assimilated to Asian ideas as it spreads. Judaism is a unique situtation again, given that this is also an ethnic religion.
- By using the the classification "Abrahamic", we allow judgement over theological features, which is something up to the theologicans and the adherences of the religion. Same as using "karmic" (as I did above), when not speaking about a religion featuring Karma. For example (and this is only an example), when I believe in Buddhism but not Karma, does this form of Buddhism stops being Buddhism? Classifying religions according to features (in this case the figure of "Abraham" and associated beliefs, often even subject to dispute within one of these three religions themselves) comes witht he issue of being prescriptive rather than descriptive. The label "Universal religion", on the other hand, explains very well how the religion operated over centuries (and thus, gained reliablitiy). In contrast, Judaism is an ethnic religion. We often see that Judaism does not entirely fit into the same classifications of Christianity and Islam and has a lot of unique traits, but due to similar mythologies and the label "Abrahamic", it is assumed they are equal in most matters.
- Terminology such as "Universalistic" is actually used then discussing the classifications of religions, as for example, here: A Matter of Class: Taxonomies of Religion Author(s): Jonathan Z. Smith Source: The Harvard Theological Review , Oct., 1996, Vol. 89, No. 4 (Oct., 1996), pp. 387- 403 Published by: Cambridge University Press on behalf of the Harvard Divinity School" and (although pretty old, yet good in regards to classifications I suppose) "THE CLASSIFICATION OF RELIGIONS Author(s): Durin J. H. Ward Source: The Monist , OCTOBER, 1908, Vol. 18, No. 4 (OCTOBER, 1908), pp. 544-575 Published by: Oxford University Press". I would suggest to go with terminology actually describing the religion, instead of referring or implying certain theological elements. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 02:44, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
- I'll note that the parameter Classification is, per the template's documentation, intended for "Christianity", "Islam", "Buddhism", etc. when discussing branches, sects or denominations. It's not intended for this. Type is a valid (but undocumented) parameter that might be a better fit, but either way, I'd recommend removing Classification entirely from this and other major religions' Infoboxes per the discussion regarding the same topic on Talk:Christianity. It should only be used for subpages. Jtrevor99 (talk) 03:39, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- Is there an overall discussion going on somewhere? Since I think it might be beneficial to clear up the wrong usage of this template. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 18:59, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Not currently, no. On the template itself would probably be the best place for one, honestly. Jtrevor99 (talk) 21:50, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- If you were about to start one, feel free to ping me along with other participants in these recent discussions. I want to do my best to provide input as soon as I feel to have the time for participating. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 22:37, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Looks like it was taken care of while I was offline for a RL event! Thanks for your interest though. Jtrevor99 (talk) 13:33, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- If you were about to start one, feel free to ping me along with other participants in these recent discussions. I want to do my best to provide input as soon as I feel to have the time for participating. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 22:37, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Not currently, no. On the template itself would probably be the best place for one, honestly. Jtrevor99 (talk) 21:50, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Is there an overall discussion going on somewhere? Since I think it might be beneficial to clear up the wrong usage of this template. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 18:59, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'll note that the parameter Classification is, per the template's documentation, intended for "Christianity", "Islam", "Buddhism", etc. when discussing branches, sects or denominations. It's not intended for this. Type is a valid (but undocumented) parameter that might be a better fit, but either way, I'd recommend removing Classification entirely from this and other major religions' Infoboxes per the discussion regarding the same topic on Talk:Christianity. It should only be used for subpages. Jtrevor99 (talk) 03:39, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- The term "universal" religion is very subjective. African spirituality, Hinduism, etc are all universal, as they have followers from various parts of the world. Abrahamic religions on the other hand is more objective as per sources as it is specifically about the 3 religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) which derived from Abraham - according to the followers of those religions. Many people know what you mean when you use the term Abrahamic religions. Using universal on the other hand may confuse the general reader.Tamsier (talk) 13:26, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- The problem with Abrahamic is that it is more or less a term for comparative religion and interreligious discourse, not a strict academic definition (For example, Manichaeism would be included as well, but noone would use the term for it for obvious reasons). Hence, the term Abrahamic is contextual. The term universal religion, on the other hand, is jargon. Of course, this is less known for laymen, but we have the sister project "simple Wikipedia" for "simple langauge". The term universal religion is used for religions applying universal concepts, such as "evil", "objective morality", etc. It has nothing to do with the numbers or distributations of adherences. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 16:02, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ Bakhos, Carol. The Family of Abraham: Jewish, Christian, and Muslim Interpretations. Harvard University Press, 2014.
- ^ Burrell, David B., et al., eds. Creation and the God of Abraham. Cambridge University Press, 2010. p. 25-39
- ^ Schubel, Vernon James. "Teaching Islam as an Asian Religion." EDUCATION ABOUT ASIA 10.1 (2005).
Islam Origin is Wrong
[edit]This topic has already been answered. The discussion has delved into a forum-type debate about religion rather than a discussion of sourcing. Please refrain from commenting further unless it follows the standards of WP:NPOV. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Hazrat Muhammad PBUH was the last messengers with last book revelation which Quran with all details from the day world created. Before there was Tawrat, zahoor and Injel in which its clearly mentioned that Hazrat Muhammad will come. As you can check Hazrat Adam A.S was the first human then how cum islam start from 610 Islam Start from Hazrat Adam A.S and last book was revealed with amended and final call from Allah at Hazrat Muhammad PBUH time. Please correct this information as it giving a wrong concept to everyone. there is many prophets came before Hazrat Muhammad PBUH. Islam was there and people were getting converted to other activities so from there these religion like christian judism came. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salih Zohranajam2 (talk) 09:41, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
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Semi-protected edit request on 29 May 2024
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Dear Author, I respect your conditions and rules.I am also an author who writes religious, scientific text explanaition. When I am writting this leeter to you this is wednesday, May29, 2024. I request you to permite me to revise this texts and insert some more reliable sources.
yours carefully, yours sincerely, UnkownReader543 (talk) 04:56, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
- Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone may add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 05:56, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Comments on Islam
[edit]- Islam is not Abrahamic but independent Arabian religion founded by muhammad it is influenced and have elements of Judaism Zoroastrianism Christianity and arabian paganism. 2404:3100:140B:F41F:6BF8:C0CD:F09B:84A9 (talk) 12:33, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- It is mohammedanism because it was founded by muhammad every monotheistic religion is founded by a founder and known with it's name for example Zoroastrianism Baha'i babism many more and islam word it self means peace which submission word it will make every body muslim because all religions submit to God so it make nonsense muhammad itself was first muslim not adam 2404:3100:140B:F41F:6BF8:C0CD:F09B:84A9 (talk) 12:44, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- Islam came from arabian polytheism muhammad parents were polytheistic 2404:3100:140B:F41F:6BF8:C0CD:F09B:84A9 (talk) 12:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- Not done: Please use reliable sources to propose clear, specific changes to specific sections of the article. Jtrevor99 (talk) 19:22, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Ibadis and Zahiris
[edit]On the sections regarding Islamic schools of thought (madhdabs), it mentions the major Sunni and Shia schools of thought. However, I (and probably many others) would like it if Ibadis and Zahiris could be mentioned in this section. Ibadis are very numerous in Oman and have minority groups in Djerba, Tunisia, and Mzab, Algeria, and many more. It emerged in the First Fitna, being one of the oldest madhdabs in Islamic History. Zahiris are also very influential and many contemporary Islamic scholars recognize then. They are known to be strictly adherent to the Quran and Hadith, and they reject qiyas and contemporary ijma Habibullah Mohammad Khan Abdul-Siddiq Gondal Sameer (talk) 19:09, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
Seperated?
[edit]Why you think islam was seperated from arabian polytheism? Islam wasn't based on arabian polytheism, they are entirely different from theology and society 114.124.243.222 (talk) 23:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- “Separated from” does not mean “based upon”, “descended from” or “related to”. It means just what it says: separated from. Jtrevor99 (talk) 02:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 21 June 2024
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1,24,000×50=6,200,000=6.2 million 1,24000×100=12,400,000=12.4 million 1,24,000×150=18,600,000=18.6 million Muslim Messagenger × Messagenger age 50,100,150= Total years Ek Messagenger ka phasla 100 year Gaps. 1 Messagenger ka jindegi lagbhag 100 year 124,000×(50×100)=620000000 =62 million 124000×(100×100)=1240000000 Cardinal: 1240000000 can be written as One billion, two hundred forty million. old Muslim Religion. 2409:40E6:7:6889:8CA6:5CFF:FEB0:3047 (talk) 00:59, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Jamedeus (talk) 01:26, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Oldest islam According to Total Messenger 124,000 and Messenger lives year and minimum gaps between Messenger 100 years
[edit]Oldest islam According to Total Messenger 124,000 and Messenger lives year and minimum gaps between Messenger 100 years 1,24,000×50=6,200,000=6.2 million 1,24000×100=12,400,000=12.4 million 1,24,000×150=18,600,000=18.6 million Muslim Messagenger × Messagenger age 50,100,150= Total years Ek Messagenger ka phasla 100 year Gaps. 1 Messagenger ka jindegi lagbhag 100 year 124,000×(50×100)=620000000 =62 million 124000×(100×100)=1240000000 Cardinal: 1240000000 can be written as One billion, two hundred forty million.
old Muslim Religion. 2409:40E6:7:6889:8CA6:5CFF:FEB0:3047 (talk) 01:03, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Total Messenger is not a reliable source. Jtrevor99 (talk) 01:17, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
The Population exceeded 2 Billion in 2023
[edit]Should be updated. Lastbattleofray (talk) 12:38, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Please update the whole article, not just the infobox. Importantly, you've deleted a reference that's in use later in the article, leaving the article with an undefined reference and conflicting information. The Infobox says that there are 2 billion adherents, and the prose says there are 1.9 billion. I've reverted your change to fix the referencing error, but when you take another run at it you'll see that there are many different sources that will need to be updated or changed. See also Muslim world#Demographics. -- Mikeblas (talk) 14:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
Criticism
[edit]Should there be a couple sentences summarising Violence in the Quran and the POVs? without entering into the politics at all. Sorry if this is polemical but I do think it's due Kowal2701 (talk) 16:31, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- Greetings,
- Since the linked article seems to have various issues, I cannot recommand to write a summary of its keypoints here. I do think that the core of the message is adressed in the article already: "Other criticisms center on the treatment of individuals within modern Muslim-majority countries, including issues related to human rights, particularly in relation to the application of Islamic law", is a quote from the criticism section. Violent verses of the Quran and the question how to reconcile them as laws with human-rights, is adressed here. Since the article focuses on Islam as a whole and not just urgent or contemporary issues, I would not expand on it any further for now. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 22:20, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
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