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Requested move 5 August 2020

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. No clear consensus whether the pirate is the Primary Topic or not. (non-admin closure) Natg 19 (talk) 02:12, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]



– It does not appear that, after 400 years, this pirate's historical legacy looms so large that it completely overshadows the combined prominence of the other two same-named men and becomes the unquestioned WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. — Roman Spinner (talkcontribs) 03:48, 5 August 2020 (UTC) Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 05:38, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, names such as George Washington or Albert Einstein (a family joke of Albert Brooks' comedian father, Harry Einstein [stage name Parkyakarkus], was to name his son Albert) would fall under the description of "unanimous or near-unanimous agreement that this is indeed an obvious primary topic which nobody can deny" and only a troll would waste time at RM by nominating any such name. It is all the other putatively primary topic names, such as this one, which fall under the second discussion point that if those names are presumed to be unable to succeed if nominated for primary topic and if such presumed nomination would be expected to result in "Not moved" or "No consensus", then they should not continue as primary topics if their continuation as primary is only as a result of "No consensus", rather than a ringing WP:SNOW endorsement. —Roman Spinner (talkcontribs) 23:37, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Throughout Wikipedia, whether for page moves, deciding if an article should have a photo, or deciding if a sentence should be included in an intro, proposed changes that don't get a consensus are pretty much always interpreted to mean "keep at the current stable situation." If we start deciding that a certain quality should be the "default" -- in this case that there would be no primary topic -- it gets much stickier. If there is a proposal that Cats should not go to cat anymore because the plural is well known as a musical, should a no consensus result mean the proposal is accepted as though it has consensus? Or the very common proposal that a UK city should not be a primary topic given the existence of many other cities named after it -- if the proposal fails to get full support and there is no consensus, should it be moved anyway? These aren't questions that necessarily need to be answered regarding this proposal, but mean it would be tough to implement that proposed approach.--Yaksar (let's chat) 18:41, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus regarding matters other than primary topics, or matters that cannot be easily viewed from a reverse angle, obviously need to be decided on a case-by-case basis. As far as primary topics are concerned, however, the bar for elevation to or retention of primary should be set high. The simple question should be, "would this non-uniquely-named subject be able to muster a near-unanimous consensus for elevation to primary topic?" If the answer is not a clear "Yes", then it should not be a primary topic.
There are many obvious examples where the answer would be a clear "Yes" — even though President Kennedy has been usually referenced as "John Fitzgerald Kennedy", "John F. Kennedy", "Jack Kennedy" or "JFK", rather than as simply "John Kennedy", he is the unquestioned primary topic over the 72 men listed at the John Kennedy (disambiguation) page. Winston Churchill is primary over Winston Churchill (Cavalier) and Winston Churchill (novelist) while Elizabeth Taylor is primary over Elizabeth Taylor (painter) and Elizabeth Taylor (novelist) and only a troll would challenge the existence of a primary topic in those cases.
However, judging by the votes and arguments here and at Talk:David Jack#Requested move 6 July 2020, the lack of unanimity and consensus becomes clear. Thus, subjects such as David Jack or John Nutt that would face opposition sufficient to prevent them from achieving consensus for elevation to primary topic, should also not remain as primary topics by the default of "No consensus". —Roman Spinner (talkcontribs) 06:15, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think if that's the change you're looking for we definitely would want to be discussing it on a wider forum. We rely on the judgement of closing admins to determine if there is a consensus, but we don't want decisions on whether a discussion's lack of consensus should be overridden to be determined on such a case by case basis. After all, the system you propose could mean proposals that there is not a lack of primary topic, where ~60 percent of !votes oppose, might be moved as proposed despite the discussion. We might agree that only a troll could oppose a primary for Winston Churchill, but then it starts getting stickier -- you'll find passionate arguments that only a troll could think there is no primary topic for Manchester and who would flip out if a proposal to do so that got 40% support was implemented. Or on the flip side, we could just as easily say "since most Wikipedia pages are at a base name and not disambiguated, unless there is a prior consensus for a lack of primary topic we should assume there is one." I wouldn't agree with that either, but as soon as we start determining that "lack of consensus means a move can still go through" we open up a can of worms.--Yaksar (let's chat) 14:57, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You are correct, of course, regarding a wider forum. I just felt obliged to comment here basically because of the earlier "Nom doesn't actually offer any concrete rationale for this move..." posting. Nevertheless, as to your theoretical point (with which you disagree) — "we could just as easily say 'since most Wikipedia pages are at a base name and not disambiguated, unless there is a prior consensus for a lack of primary topic we should assume there is one'" — we could not just as easily say that because in contentious primary topic cases the reverse angle does not function equally in both directions.
Since the natural state of being for dab pages is "no primary topic", once we get past the obvious and expectedly unanimous Winston ChurchillAlbert EinsteinElizabeth Taylor territory and into the non-obvious and contentious David JackJohn Nutt territory, we realize that the longer a primary topic is discussed and the greater the number of participants, the higher the bar for becoming the primary.
If only a couple of Wikipedians cared to comment or if almost everyone agreed that the number of Google hits or page views was the deciding factor, we could put the matter to rest (as an example of a primary topic which does not seem to attract any interest, Charles Marsh, the putative primary topic of the 13-entry Charles Marsh (disambiguation) page has been listed for three days, but has not gotten a single vote).
However, in cases such as this one or David Jack, and taking into account that most dab pages are bereft of a primary topic, it would seem that to remain as primary a topic should do better than the present 7 votes for "John Nutt is not primary" to 8 votes for "John Nutt is primary" or 6 votes for "David Jack is not primary" to 4 votes for "David Jack is primary".
Ultimately, consensus decides everything, including whether 55% or 60% percent support is sufficient to create or retain a primary topic or whether a primary should require a higher level of support, such as at least 67% or even 75% support that we would expect for the more obvious names or topics. —Roman Spinner (talkcontribs) 05:07, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. A classic case of The Problem With Page Views. Page views are the only argument advanced above to support primary topic for a guy who was a minor pirate for three years, and that's his best claim to fame. His legal and illegal and successful tactics to escape the gallows aren't all that remarkable for the period and nor is his piracy. Judged by significance, John Nutt (printer) would be clear primary topic. So best to say there isn't one. Andrewa (talk) 08:55, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The page views show that anyone searching with “John Nutt” is more likely than not looking for the pirate. In other words the pirate is the primary topic. The whole point of primary topic is to best serve our users. Sending everyone to a god forsaken dab page is the opposite of serving them well. Editors like Andrewa may disagree with our users’ search priorities, but that’s no reason to stick it to them. —-В²C 07:53, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I disagree with one user's search priorities. You are the only one I know who goes to the same DAB fourteen times in quick succession (I think it was fourteen... It was to The Americans, I'm sure you remember it... but you won that one), says he almost threw his tablet across the room in anger, and then blames Wikipedia for the fact that he didn't bookmark the page he wanted on the first occasion.
    • The page views show that they got to the article on the pirate. They don't indicate that they wanted that article. Do they? Andrewa (talk) 19:16, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • So then I have to open and wade through my bookmarks to find it? No thank you! I usually have a WP tab open. I should be able to type in “the Americans” and get directly there. Thankfully I can now, though no thanks to you, lol. And yes we know most are looking for the pirate because most get to WP articles via external search engines, which are remarkably accurate, which is why we can rely on page view statistics to ascertain relative likelihoods of being sought. And before you get all hot and bothered about users using external search engines, remember that titles are much less important to them. Where they matter are precisely to the minority that uses internal search. And yes, we presume the distribution of search likelihoods is about the same for internal searchers as for external ones. So the page views established mostly by external searchers provide the data required to title our articles to optimize internal searches, including recognizing primary topics based on page views. It’s a beautiful thing. Embrace it. —В²C 20:43, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • No, you just need to organise your bookmarks. It's not hard and it will be worth it. I'm not hot and bothered, just quietly confident that reason will eventually win out as it did in the case of NYRM. I hope the NY people enjoyed their eleven years of power while their pet article was at New York, and I gather you enjoy having yours at The Americans, and however long it stays there neither Wikipedia nor the world will end as a result. Just a few people will be inconvenienced. And the same here. Andrewa (talk) 14:59, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • The Americans is not the only article I frequently search. You want me to create book marks for all of them so you can break internal search entirely by abandoning primary topic? Ridiculous. Search works. Don’t break it. —-В²C 22:07, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.