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October 17[edit]

Category:Executives of Indiana based companies[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 11:52, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: There are no other U.S. states with corresponding categories. It's unclear why Indiana should be the only one. If this isn't deleted, it should at least be moved to Category:Executives of Indiana-based companies (i.e. with a hyphen). Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 22:22, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support in principle. We should probably manually merge folks into American business executives and Businesspeople from Indiana. Mason (talk) 03:09, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Wikipedia XX-Class level-n vital articles[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 26#Category:Wikipedia XX-Class level-n vital articles

Category:Iraq Division One[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename both. (non-admin closure) HouseBlastertalk 02:29, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: The correct name would be "Iraqi" Division One rather than "Iraq" Division One, since the term used in Arabic is "العراقي" not "العراق". Also, this would keep consistency with other Iraqi football tournaments such as Iraqi Pro League and Iraqi Super Cup which all use "Iraqi" in both English and Arabic titles, hence I moved the page and asking for the categories to be moved also. Thanks, Hashim-afc (talk) 19:31, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Iraq Central FA League[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename all as nominated. (non-admin closure) HouseBlastertalk 02:29, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: These articles are specifically about the top division in each of the regions which was called Premier League. Each region also had several other lower divisions, for example, see here for source about the Iraq Central FA 2nd Division League. Since these articles are specifically about the top division only, it becomes important to specify "Premier League" in the article name, hence why I moved these pages, and am asking for the associated categories to be moved also. Thanks, Hashim-afc (talk) 19:22, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Assassinated politicians by type[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) HouseBlastertalk 21:22, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with only two subcategories. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:21, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I see you removed mayors, governors, presidents from the Category:Assassinated politicians by type. I was wondering why. Do you think they are not politicians? Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 00:31, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Presidents are still here (in heads of state). Mayors and governors are in Category:Assassinated government officials because sometimes they are politicians, sometimes they aren't, dependent on time and place. Government officials is always correct. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:43, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Presidents I agree being in heads of state and heads of government.
    "A politician is a person who has political power in the government of a state, a person active in party politics, or a person holding or seeking an elected office in government."
    Also, I think more categories could be made, for example, Assassinated City Council Members. Then Category:Assassinated politicians by type has potential for growth. I favor keeping it, as it is a different category than Assassinated government officials, which as you say, not all are politicians (even though all mayors and governors are). Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 20:53, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Other possible categories that could be created or included under Category:Assassinated politicians by type: Assassinated city and county councillors, Assassinated national legislators, Assassinated regional legislators, Assassinated vice-presidents and deputy governors, Assassinated party officials. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 01:33, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Assassinated members of parliament could probably be a good category, but other than that I expect these would be very poorly populated categories and also based on not so very important distinctions. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:28, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Category:Assassinated American county and local politicians‎ had 12 entries. Of these 9 were mayors. That means that 25% were county and local politicians who were not mayors, 3 entries. Extrapolating, we could make an educated guess that for example a Category:Assassinated Local Politicians except Mayors could have around 6 entries per continent (except Oceania), for a total of around 30 pages.

Using the above info, we get the table below using the formula (US Cat)x10=(global cat), where US Cat is the number of pages in a US category and global cat is the number of pages in a global category.[1]

US category[2] Entries Global category Entries
Assassinated American county and local politicians except mayors 3 Assassinated Local Politicians except Mayors 30
Assassinated American vice-presidents 0 Assassinated vice-presidents and deputy governors 5
Assassinated American former and incumbent party officials 7 Assassinated former and incumbent party officials 70
Assassinated United States Congress members and candidates 13 Assassinated national legislators and candidates 130
Assassinated American State legislators and candidates 21 Assassinated regional legislators and candidates 210

Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 22:13, 12 October 2023 (UTC) Edited 03:40, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Except Assassinated American vice-presidents
  2. ^ Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 30#Assassinated American county and local politicians by time

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 18:44, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Fictional Cimmerians[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete * Pppery * it has begun... 22:44, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: merge for now, only one article in the category. No objection to recreation of the category if and when it can be populated better. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:43, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Teen films[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Delete Category:Films about teenagers, restrucutre Category:Teen films. * Pppery * it has begun... 23:41, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: These seem to be covering identical territory. "Teen films" seems to be better developed and has been around longer, while "Films about" uses our preferred naming standard for film categories. That said, I don't have a strong opinion on which naming scheme is better, just that the two seem duplicative. DonIago (talk) 15:48, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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  • Oppose Teen films are a genre, they don't necessarily have any teens in the films themselves. -- 65.92.244.127 (talk) 09:09, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    From the category description: "This is a list of "teen films," movies centering around the lives of teenagers and young adults, with teens and young adults as the target audience." Are you suggesting that the scope of the category should be changed? DonIago (talk) 20:19, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, that's wrong. Teen films are films where the target audience are teens and young adults; with themes that teens and young adults identify with. Films centered around the lives of teens and young adults are not necessarily teen films, and films aimed at teens do not necessarily feature teens (or even humans). Youth/teen adaptations of adult content also occur, films with youth/teen-oriented content featuring younger children also occur; etc. -- 65.92.244.127 (talk) 03:44, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Given this comment, I think you should change your oppose !vote to a proposal to change the category scope. DonIago (talk) 04:35, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with the IP. Intuitively, I understand "teen films" to be "films made for teenagers", not "films about teenagers". Therefore, restructure scope. HouseBlastertalk 18:02, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Restructure per teen film - Teen film is a film genre targeted at teenagers, preteens, or young adults by the plot being based on their special interests.
Delete Category:Films about teenagers, overlapping. At the very least delete one of them. Qwerfjkltalk 17:13, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:20th-century sportspeople by nationality[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 29#Category:20th-century sportspeople by nationality

Category:People from the State of Palestine[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 29#Category:People from the State of Palestine

Category:Landowners from the Kingdom of England[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. Could be a textbook example of nc... (non-admin closure) HouseBlastertalk 02:28, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: trivial intersection Mason (talk) 03:56, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. It's not a trivial intersection. English landowners is who the landowners are (they're English, regardless of where they live), and Kingdom of England is where they're from (including Danes, Normans, Welsh, etc.) Also, if we use the date given at the beginning of England in the Middle Ages, 1485, all but one of the people in this category was born after the end of the mediaeval period. 123.51.107.94 (talk) 05:21, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't see the benefit of categorising Englishmen by occupation, however. The English landowners category could be split into the current category, "Landowners from the Kingdom of Great Britain", and "Landowners from the United Kingdom", with no overlap except for landowners who lived in 1707 and 1801. 123.51.107.94 (talk) 05:26, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • If merged, do not merge to Category:Medieval English people. Three articles aren't about the middle ages and the fourth is already in Category:15th-century English women. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:09, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I've made an alt merge, as I agree that medieval english people aren't quite right as a parent. Still I think that this overlaps way too much with English landowners, which are already broken up by century, making this intersection is redundant. Mason (talk) 17:23, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I oppose the alternate proposal too. Some English landowners lived in other realms (for example, the King could own land in France), and non-Englishmen could own land in England (for example, King James I was a Scot who owned a huge percentage of land in England). We ought to give up on this discussion and have one about getting rid of the English landowners category. 123.51.107.94 (talk) 23:46, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. There's merit to having a category for landowners by country. However, in both these cases the category is about landowners by nationality. Mason (talk) 13:01, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Military doctors by country[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Rename Uncontested for more than a month. * Pppery * it has begun... 22:44, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Although the parent categories have both country categories and nationality categories, the names pretty much all reflect nationality. Moreover, I think that the most pertinent categories are: Category:Medical doctors by specialty and nationality AND Category:Military personnel by nationality Mason (talk) 20:51, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Vice-chancellors of the University of Eswatini[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Heads of universities and colleges in Africa and Category:University of Eswatini. Category:Heads of universities and colleges in Eswatini will be deleted as well. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:12, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Over-categorization: 1-article category Gjs238 (talk) 10:40, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
However, I suggest to Alt-merge parent ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.› Category:Heads of universities and colleges in Eswatini to ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.› Category:Heads of universities and colleges in Africa. Maybe that's what the nominator intended in the first place. There used to be intermediate container categories for university vice-chancellors, but these were upmerged to heads of universities and colleges following this 2019 CfD. This would remove Eswatini from parent ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.› Category:Heads of universities and colleges by country but maybe we can live with that, seen the small number of universities in this small country (one extant and one former university). Place Clichy (talk) 11:24, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Category:Vice-chancellors of the University of Eswatini contains one article Lydia Makhubu. Recategorize that article to Category:Heads of universities and colleges in Africa. Gjs238 (talk) 14:37, 8 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Gjs238 (talk) 17:20, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:People executed by the Holy Roman Empire[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:15, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: rename, executions were the business of principalities within the Holy Roman Empire. The HRE did not have any law enforcement personnel by itself. The subcategories already properly use "in". Marcocapelle (talk) 07:14, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How would you feel about Category:People executed by principalities in the Holy Roman Empire? as that would make it a litter clearer that these are law-enforcing executions Mason (talk) 17:56, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Rename as originally nominated. I think "execution" (as opposed to e.g. "murder") makes it clear that the executions were lawful. HouseBlastertalk 02:24, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:American Roman Catholics by occupation[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:16, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Cat that will encourage people to create WP:OCNARROW categories at the intersection of religion, nationality, and occupation Mason (talk) 19:59, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:African-American Catholic consecrated religious[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:18, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: I'm not sure what to rename this, but it needs a rename, as it doesn't actually have an occupation attached to it... Mason (talk) 20:01, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Canadian people who self-identify as being of Indigenous descent[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:28, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Loaded category. While pretendian, or people falsely claiming indigenous heritage they don't really have, is a real phenomenon, this category appears to have been created principally to sidestep content disputes about who did or didn't belong in the main article as examples of it -- it mixes a number of people who are properly sourceable as having had their claims of indigenous identity questioned or debunked (Joseph Boyden, Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond) and have been accordingly listed in the article, with a whole lot of people who are not properly sourceable as being "pretendians" and thus have not been listed in the article.
For example, while it was about a year ago now that somebody tried to use Wikipedia to rip on singer Iskwē as a "pretendian", as of September 2023 there has yet to be a single reliable source posting even one single solitary word on the matter that we could ever use as sourcing for describing her that way in our own editorial voice. (And there have been prior attempts to rip on Tomson Highway, of all the people in the world whose indigenous credentials aren't actually in any valid doubt whatsoever. I'm really not making that up.)
This is simply not an appropriate basis for a category at all: if a person's indigenous identity is actually in question, then it's easy to just remove them from indigenous categories they might have been filed in, but a category that essentially comes right out and explicitly labels them as lying liars who lie is absolutely inappropriate on WP:BLP grounds. Bearcat (talk) 23:06, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Wikipedia relies exclusively on what can be verified by published sources. It is easy to verify that people have publicly identified themselves as being Indigenous of descent through secondary, published sources. If the sources can then be backed up by First Nations, Inuit, or Métis communities that acknowledge the individual as having Indigenous identity, then the person can be moved into smaller, more specific categories; for instance, if a specific First Nation acknowledges a person as being a member of that nation. This would be the broadest category. Even the current description (which can be edited) does not say that every individual does *not* have Indigenous ancestry. If you believe someone does not belong in this category (i.e. if they have not made a public claim identifying as being of Indigenous descent or are not a Canadian), feel free to move them out. Yuchitown (talk) 23:28, 20 September 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown[reply]
We also need, but in many of these cases do not have, reliable sourcing that properly verifies the existence of any challenges to or questions about the person's indigenous identity. It wasn't Wikipedia's job to know anything, or have any doubts about, Joseph Boyden's identity until reliable sources told us there was a problem. It wasn't Wikipedia's job to have any inside knowledge, or any questions about, Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond's identity until reliable sources told us there was a problem. It wasn't our job to gainsay Michelle Latimer's identity until reliable sources told us there was a problem. It isn't our job to question Iskwe's identity until reliable sources tell us there's a problem (which, as of September 2023, reliable sources have still never done). And on and so forth: our job is to follow the media coverage, not to research people's genealogies ourselves. So it isn't our job to interrogate anybody's indigenous identity until reliable sources tell us that there's a problem, and many of the people in this category don't have any such thing. Sure, some people misrepresent themselves as having indigenous heritage when they really don't — I'm not denying that. But it isn't Wikipedia's job to conduct the investigation, because we are not an investigative journalism project. Our job begins and ends at summarizing a person's media coverage, and does not include saying anything, including even the allegation that they might be misrepresenting their identity, if we can't back that up with media coverage explicitly reporting they're misrepresenting their identity. Bearcat (talk) 23:43, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Yuchtown. This category is still useful, even if the sourcing is a pain. @Bearcat, your arguments are well thought out, I just really hesitate to delete this category as it is defining for many people. Indeed, in the US for example, many members of the African American community identify as having indigenous heritage, but were/are being denied tribal membership (I'm thinking of the Cherokee Nation in particular). Mason (talk) 23:57, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There does not need to be a challenge to claims. The category is absolutely *not* "Canadians who claim but do not have Indigenous ancestry." Even the description (which can be further edited) points out that only some of the people in the category have had their claims contested. Yuchitown (talk) 02:58, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown[reply]
Comment:To Bearcat: Again, it's easy to confirm with published sources that someone has made the self-identification, so that is what this category is about. This is not a category only for people whose claims have been disputed or disproven. Nothing in the description talks about anyone lying. If you wanted to create such a category as subcat, that would be a different conversation. Yuchitown (talk) 14:21, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown[reply]
The category's description explicitly states that the category is for people who "claim to have some Indigenous peoples of the Americas ancestry but provide no proof of this heritage" — but what published sources exist to verify that most people in the category have failed to provide the necessary standard of proof in the first place? What published sources exist to verify which self-identified First Nations people have the necessary amount of proof to get transferred from "self-identified" to "confirmed", and which self-identified First Nations people do not? What published sources exist to verify who has provided the proof and who hasn't?
What reliable sources tell us that Alec Butler has failed to provide the necessary standard of proof? What reliable sources tell us that Iskwe has failed to provide the necessary standard of proof? What reliable sources tell us that Faith Nolan has failed to provide the necessary standard of proof? And for that matter, what reliable sources tell us that almost any First Nations person, whether they've been added to this category or not, ever actually has provided the necessary standard of proof? What reliable sources establish that any First Nations person has ever graduated from "self-identified" to "confirmed"?
Which is precisely why "disputed" is the only grounds on which a person can be assigned to this category — because the existence or non-existence of a reliably sourceable dispute about the person's indigenous heritage is the only mechanism we have to establish that anybody in the category has ever met the "provide no proof" criterion. We need reliable sources to tell us that a person has failed to provide the necessary standard of proof, which means that the existence of a reliably sourceable dispute about the person's indigenous heritage is the only thing we can go on. Without reliably sourcing the existence of a dispute, we get things like the attempt I explicitly linked to above where somebody actually attempted to pretendianize Tomson Highway — because even people who are fully accepted as members of the appropriate indigenous communities still generally don't have any reliable published sources by which we could actually source proof that they've landed on the correct side of a distinction between "self-identified" and "confirmed". Bearcat (talk) 18:22, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The description can be changed (in fact, I will shortly). The sources that could verify would be First Nations (or Inuit or Métis communities) identifying the individual as a being of Indigenous descent, or prominent Indigenous publications, such as Inuit Art Quarterly or Nunatsiaq News — some substantiation of a claim independent of the individual making the claim. Just a back story for why this article exists that that many celebraties claim Indigenous identity and their fans will repeatedly put them in inaccurate subcats. You are trying to make this category something that is it not. 21:57, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown Yuchitown (talk) 21:57, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not trying to make the category into anything it didn't explicity call itself, and First Nations, Métis or Inuit communities are not published sources that we can consult for verification or citability. What published sources verify which "confirmed" First Nations people have their indigenous status properly verified by community affirmation of their indigeneity and which "self-identified" First Nations people do not? As important as community affirmation is, community affirmation is not a published source, so we need published sources to tell us who has community affirmation and who doesn't.
And as for "prominent Indigenous publications, such as Inuit Art Quarterly or Nunatsiaq News", well, spoiler alert, even Joseph Boyden and Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond had coverage in prominent indigenous news outlets that took their indigeneity at face value, and would have met the standard you propose, before the existence of any dispute became sourceable. That simply fails to meet the "who has community affirmation and who doesn't" test, because there are people without community affirmation who have gotten coverage in publications like that, and there are people with community affirmation who have not gotten coverage in publications like that. Bearcat (talk) 11:08, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
When sources contradict each other, say Inuit Art Quarterly, you got by the more recent information that debunks previous misinformation, like any other field. Yuchitown (talk) 11:16, 23 September 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown[reply]
  • Split to Category:Canadian people with disputed Indigenous descent and Category:Canadian people with Indigenous descent, this category mixes up two very different issues. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:08, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Category:Canadian people of Indigenous peoples descent exists. Basically the self-identification category is the largest since it's easy to confirm through published sources that someone has self-identified. If their self-identification can be substantiated by independent published sources, then they can move onto the smaller subcategories. If others thought Category:Canadian people with disputed Indigenous descent would be useful and viable, then that would also be a subcat of Category:Canadian people who self-identify as being of Indigenous descent. Yuchitown (talk) 14:18, 21 September 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown[reply]
  • Keep - category is clear, if they self-identify, then they belong here. It's not a mark against the claim being legit or not. This category keeps Wikipedia NPOV and avoids being used to as a way to "validate" vague claims made by folks. If media reports they're enrolled somewhere, then they are not self-identifying, they are claimed. Having two category for folks with "disputed Indigenous descent" and one for people with Indigenous descent could even be going into the field of original research unless there's sources for both that show someone is descended from a tribe but isn't enrolled and that someone else is being publicly challenged by the media in their claims. Keeping it as self-identifying isn't OR, it's going by their claims.  oncamera  (talk page) 12:40, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Per Yuchitown and others. This is not a category specifically for pretendians. It is a general category for people who have claimed an Indigenous identity without verification. There is nothing in the category's title that claims or implies that anyone is a liar. The category is useful both for the general reading public and for Indigenous WikiProject editors in navigating between verifiable Indigenous people and people who have made claims without verification. Self-identifying as Indigenous is a defining characteristic in and of itself, regardless of whether or not there is media coverage of a controversy over an unverified claim. Deleting the category would be a disservice to general readership and Indigenous editors. Determining Indigenous identity is not particularly difficult. Individuals can be removed from the category if additional sources are provided verifying their Indigenous identity. It is irrelevant that some Indigenous people like Tomson Highway have been called pretendians by some individuals, because those claims aren't from a reliable source. Even Buffy has been called a pretendian (David Cornsilk and others have alleged she's just Italian-American and lies in a tanning bed all day), but we don't list her in the self-identifying category because she is claimed by the Piapot First Nation. Controversy itself isn't a deciding factor, one way or the other. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 19:00, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    To follow up, two groups who are not pretendians who would also fall into the category for this group would Sixties Scoop survivors who have not yet been able to trace their birth families and Canadian citizens of Latin American Indigenous ancestry who have are unconnected their their communities of origin. Yuchitown (talk) 20:55, 23 September 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: No concensus yet on whether disputed claims of Indigenous descent should be segregated.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:04, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. The majority of us voted to keep, and the one person who suggested splitting the categories wasn't familiar with existing categories. I know this isn't a simple vote count, but this was overwhelmingly voted to keep. The topic of unsubstantiated claims of Indigenous identity (not necessarily false, as I pointed out in my previous comment) is much more widely discussed by the Canadian press than the American press and is written about by Canadian scholars in academic journals as well. Yuchitown (talk) 16:11, 4 October 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 17:54, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. I understand why folks see this category as unnecessary through a social/cultural lens, but the important point here, as @Yuchitown mentions, is that Indigenous is an important political designation in Canada. Official recognition conveys special status, whereas self-identification does not. To reiterate, this category's importance is primarily political, not cultural. Crescent77 (talk) 04:23, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would not object to deletion per se, but then at least the articles about people with undisputed descent should be recategorized to Category:Canadian people of Indigenous peoples descent. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:02, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Individuals whose claims confirmed by the groups being claimed, published in secondary sources, already are in different category. To User:HouseBlaster suggestion that this category it based on opinion; it is not. The fact that someone has self-identified as being of Indigenous descent is a fact that can easily be confirmed by statements made by the individual as published in secondary sources. I don't think I've seen a CfD be relisted twice before. Yuchitown (talk) 22:44, 19 October 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown[reply]
    • That is different from what I said. We don't require any other ethnic groups to confirm a person's descent explicitly. A self-stated descent always suffices. At most we may make an exception when the claimed descent is disputed but I am not even sure we should. Marcocapelle (talk) 23:20, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      Kainai is an ethnic group. Being an Indigenous person of Canada is a politic status that encompasses hundreds of diverse ethnic groups. It's not a race; it's not an ethnic group. Yuchitown (talk) 00:38, 20 October 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Military catering[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) HouseBlastertalk 02:18, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: I have moved the UK category up from Category:Military food, which otherwise contains topics on army rations & foodstuffs. The Canada category currently only holds one article, so should be merged to all parents unless and until there are more articles to go in it. – Fayenatic London 15:45, 26 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 00:17, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwerfjkltalk 17:51, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Edmonton Elks[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkltalk 17:25, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: I am proposing to revert this and all associated subcategories to their original names. This was speedily moved without a CfD but 95% of the stuff in the Elks cat is actually for the Eskimos. There are supposed to be separate categories for the different incarnations of gridiron football teams. See Category:Washington Commanders and Category:Los Angeles Rams for a few examples. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 15:08, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep current category name. I can understand starting a new category when a franchise moves to a different city - that's a major break in the franchise's history. But a mere name change while staying in the same stadium is pretty minor and does not mark a new "era" in and of itself. And the category name should match the current name of the team. Those three categories for the Washington NFL team look like a bad decision to me. Indefatigable (talk) 16:32, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What's your opinion on the two Boston categories in the Washington category? WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 17:15, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think the two Boston categories should be merged as well. It was the same team, but its initial nickname lasted only one year. That's not enough to warrant a separate category for that single season, unless there are other nuances I'm not aware of. 1930s American football is not something I have a lot of knowledge about. Indefatigable (talk) 19:03, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Geréb family[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete with no prejudice to recreation. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:21, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: small cat (n=1) without a corresponding eponymous article about the family. category has no interlanguage links ( seems unlikely for growth). Mason (talk) 13:26, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Stein family[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) HouseBlastertalk 02:20, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: small cat (<3) without a corresponding eponymous article about the family. category has no interlanguage links ( seems unlikely for growth.) . Mason (talk) 13:23, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Video game businesspeople by nationality[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Video game businesspeople. (non-admin closure) HouseBlastertalk 02:19, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Overcategorization. Only one category in it Mason (talk) 13:16, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Emigrants from Portuguese Timor to Macau[edit]

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 October 25#Category:Emigrants from Portuguese Timor to Macau

Category:Canadian women radio presenters[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Canadian women radio hosts. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:21, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: These two category pages are essentially the exact same topic. Giovanni 0331 (talk) 12:58, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's a WP:ENGVAR issue. Each country should be using the term that would actually be expected in that country's own dialect of English, so having "hosts" in some countries and "presenters" in others is not a problem — but it is a problem for one country to have both a "hosts" category and a "presenters" category existing alongside each other at the same time when they're the same thing. Every other country has either "hosts" or "presenters", and Canada is the only one where somebody tried to create "presenters" alongside "hosts" as a second category for the same thing. Bearcat (talk) 00:03, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Explorers from Extremadura[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Spanish explorers. (non-admin closure) HouseBlastertalk 02:32, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: merge, trivial intersection, follow-up on the merge of Basque explorers in Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_October_8#Category:Explorers_by_ethnicity. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:37, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom Mason (talk) 13:21, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Children of American missionaries in China[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:22, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: not defining, Mason (talk) 04:01, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Engineers from the Kingdom of Prussia[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: keep. Category contents have increased to 10 pages since nomination. (non-admin closure) –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:23, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: I'm inclined to merge as the category is underpopulated, and i don't think the intersection with regeime is defining. But an alternative could be Prussian engineers, to match the bulk of the names Mason (talk) 03:07, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Prussian Egyptologists[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:German Egyptologists. (non-admin closure) HouseBlastertalk 02:32, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: overlapping category where political regime's intersection with occupation is not defining Mason (talk) 02:57, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:People from the Duchy of Saxe-Meiningen[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:People from Saxe-Meiningen. (non-admin closure) HouseBlastertalk 02:17, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: overlapping category Mason (talk) 01:57, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Mentissa[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) HouseBlastertalk 02:16, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: With an article for only one song, this eponymous category isn’t needed per WP:OCEPON. StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 01:40, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Von Rad family[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) HouseBlastertalk 02:16, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: small cat (<3) without a corresponding eponymous article about the family. category has no interlanguage links ( seems unlikely for growth) Mason (talk) 00:36, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Ribbentrop family[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) HouseBlastertalk 02:16, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: small cat (<3) without a corresponding eponymous article about the family. 2 family members are father-son pair. category has no interlanguage links ( seems unlikely for growth. Mason (talk) 00:34, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Gerulfingian dynasty[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:House of Holland (nobility). (non-admin closure) HouseBlastertalk 02:03, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: upmerge. small cat. (n<3). The interlanguage link only had one page in it, indicating low chance of growth. Mason (talk) 00:31, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Hattonid dynasty[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) HouseBlastertalk 02:02, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: small cat (<3) with one member and a corresponding eponymous article about the family. category has interlanguage links, but there weren't additional pages. Could also possiblly be upmered into Category:Ruling families of the Duchy of Saxony. Mason (talk) 00:27, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Abercron family[edit]

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) HouseBlastertalk 02:02, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: small cat (<3) without a corresponding eponymous article about the family. category has no interlanguage links ( seems unlikely for growth.) . Mason (talk) 00:25, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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