Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Petyr Baelish

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. There is policy based rational for both maintaining and deleting this article sources provided by Coolabahapple shows this subject has received significant coverage outside of the show and no clear consensus has been established. (non admin closure) Valoem ^talk ^contrib 22:32, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Petyr Baelish

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Prominent fictional character who feels as though he ought to be notable, but that's not evident from the article. It cites not a single source, since November 2013, and moreover almost entirely consists of plot summary, in a perfect unholy union of failing WP:V, WP:N and WP:NOTPLOT.

Now I follow media coverage of Game of Thrones somewhat closely, having contributed most of the text of the series's main article, and I can't remember reading anything in reliable sources about the character that went much beyond passing mentions in reviews in the vein of "and meanwhile Littlefinger is busy scheming, and whoring". I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, of course, but only if whoever finds relevant sources also uses them to reference the article and add something to it that goes beyond plot summary. Otherwise we're only duplicating fan wikis, which is not what we're here for. Sandstein 19:09, 28 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - {{spoiler alert!}} Usually, I'm not a proponent of having "in-universe" fiction topics for WP. But anybody who's been here since the early days will remember the giant brouhaha about Lord of the Rings characters, etc., so on that issue I bow the consensus of the community. That having been said, Baelish is the main mover and shaker of the books/show. Without Baelish, there would be no "game of thrones". He has been the gamemaster from the beginning. Without the death of Jon Arryn, Ned would never have gone to the capital, the truth of Joffrey's (whom Baelish later murders!) parentage would never have been revealed, there would be no War of the Five Kinds, etc., etc. I realize sourcing could be a major issue, but having an article on the Game of Thrones without an article on Baelish is akin to having an article on The Lord of the Rings without an article on the One Ring or having an article on Star Wars without having an article on Palpatine.--William Thweatt ^Talk^Contribs 21:56, 28 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We don't need to have an article about him to cover him as part of the plot of the novels. He can be (and is) described in the List of A Song of Ice and Fire characters and in the plot summaries of the books he appears in. But Wikipedia articles must be more than just plot summary, which means that if there's nothing more to the character than his in-universe significance, there's no basis for a dedicated article. Sandstein 06:42, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:54, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:54, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:55, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:55, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Littlefinger is definitely notable! He betrayed Ned, killed Jon Arryn, killed Lysa Arryn (alright, that one was warranted). He also killed Joffrey indirectly, a redeeming quality. I'm just kidding. Definitely agree "fictional character who feels as though he ought to be notable". Redirect to list of characters. Fails WP:BKD. While I absolutely love Game of Thrones and the books, they are not yet significant to the level of Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol, and even if they were, Littlefinger is nowhere near a significant enough character. Maybe once GoT/ASoIaF is studied academically and if Littlefinger is somehow a major character in books 6/7. ― Padenton|✉ 03:10, 3 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This, at least, is an at least quasi-academic paper that is concentrating on the subject's character; and these two also deal with the subject in some detail and go rather beyond simply recounting the plot. Though I think that while at least the first of the three is probably usable towards notability, these don't quite achieve notability for the subject by themselves. But if anyone wants to try,... PWilkinson (talk) 14:14, 3 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 02:40, 6 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Haven't watched the series or read the books but Keep as it meets WP:GNG Here are some references, most of which are notable (the first three are thanks to PWilkinson above:

[1] - Petyr Baelish and the Mask of Sanity by Matt Stagg in Beyond the Wall: Exploring George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire by James Lowder (ed.) pp 141-151 - investigates whether character is a psychopath.
[2] - "Game of Thrones on Business: Strategy, morality and leadership lessons from the world’s most talked about TV show" by Tim Phillips and Rebecca Clare, pp 117-120 ("The Climb") - compares how the characters Varys and Baelish think about their ambitions.
[3] - is a fan blog book so probably not useable.
[4] - Game Of Thrones: Aidan Gillen can’t wait for Littlefinger’s grisly demise - newspaper interview with character's actor.
[5] - Why You Should Root for Littlefinger to Win by Gil Kidron for Huffington Post - describes what Baelish is doing and how that compares in the real world.
[6] - The real history that inspired Game of Thrones - compares Baelish to Thomas Cromwell.

Probably more can be found. Coolabahapple (talk) 11:14, 10 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete most of what I see above is in-universe stuff. A character's importance to the story is irrelevant to real-world notability. rʨanaɢ (talk) 11:23, 10 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sam Walton (talk) 17:45, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep only because it is hard to see -- after primary fictional characters from a television programme are given their own articles -- which then are and are not sufficiently notable on that score. If the character's name is removed from the Game of Thrones templates then the article can be AFDed again or even speedy deleted. Otherwise, why delete one fictional name and leave all the rest? Quis separabit? 13:03, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 08:02, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 08:02, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by nominator: The above keep comment is not relevant, see WP:WAX. We address each article on their own merits. As to the material found by Coolabahapple , that might make me want to keep a version of the article in which this material is competently covered, but as it is, we have only plot summary, and that merits removal per WP:NOTPLOT. Can be redirected for now and recreated at a later time with more content. Sandstein 10:12, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Lord Petyr Baelish aka Littlefinger is a central character in both the books and television series appearing in all 5 seasons definitely Keep.▪◦▪≡SiREX≡^Talk 19:12, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As much as a character can be central if there's more than a hundred of them. And this doesn't really address the notability and plot summary problems. Sandstein 20:36, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Littlefinger isn't just some extra in the show but is part of the Main cast appearing in 30 episodes and ALL 5 seasons, making him 1 of 10 of the Main cast in which that's true, he is very much a pivotal character of significance for the storyline in both the books and TV. if you are not a viewer I urge you to watch this video to give you an idea of his importance, It's worth watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v-H7iGLCIw ▪◦▪≡SiREX≡^Talk 10:01, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment/question Is WP:NOTPLOT grounds for deletion? WP:CONTN - "Article content does not determine notability:

Notability is a property of a subject and not of a Wikipedia article. If the subject has not been covered outside of Wikipedia, no amount of improvements to the Wikipedia content will suddenly make the subject notable. Conversely, if the source material exists, even very poor writing and referencing within a Wikipedia article will not decrease the subject's notability." Either this subject is notable or it is not. Coolabahapple (talk) 15:28, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.