Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sahar (singer) (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. I don't think there's a consensus to Delete here, especially as two of the Delete comments are merely "not notable". The article is not close enough to the previous version to qualify for G4, by the way. Black Kite (talk) 22:33, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sahar (singer)[edit]

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Non-notable singer who fails WP:GNG and WP:ENT. Previously deleted in June 2020 - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sahar (singer). Tagged with WP:G4 today but the tag was removed with the edit summary " Check this new AfD on fa wiki, I think we can wait for the result". I'm not sure that AfDs on fa-wiki have any bearing here. John B123 (talk) 20:38, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. John B123 (talk) 20:38, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. John B123 (talk) 20:38, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Dance-related deletion discussions. John B123 (talk) 20:38, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions. John B123 (talk) 20:38, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Very weak Keep Has some sourcing, and has some popular songs. However, she was deleted before based on previous consensus.--Kieran207 talk 21:13, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep according to WP:SINGER she clearly passes point #11 because her song's plying in every Persian musice TV frequently. She has 3.1million followers on instagrm in compare to my favorite singer Luciana (singer) wich has 24.1kilo, Victoria Acosta 12k, Paula Abdul 312k by [Category:American female pop singers] most of them theirs followers is under 1m also in this category we see Selena Gomez with 200.5 million followers all of us know her I think some user's they only see Selena Gomez! Reza Amper (talk) 21:27, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Twitter followers is definitely not a way to establish notability. Foxnpichu (talk) 23:39, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Foxnpichu OK.Reza Amper (talk) 07:15, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral Comment - In the previous AfD a few months ago, a participant mentioned that articles on this singer have been deleted in Persian Wikipedia at least six times due to lack of notability. Here in English Wikipedia, we have had several recent AfDs on Iranian entertainers in which supporters claim the entertainers deserve to be here because they are suppressed in their home country and that's why they have no media notice. You can expect arguments about how they're "famous" anyway. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ava Bahram (2nd nomination). That one was also for an article that had been deleted shortly before but recreated by folks who ignored the guidelines. My own annoying experience in that AfD causes me to stay neutral in this one, for now. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 16:05, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'll also refrain from voting--I'm a firm believer that in order to do a fair AfD investigation one needs to know the particular language where sources can be searched--but I will state this: To be famous is not necessarily to be notable. Some feel otherwise, but as far as wikipedia is concerned, notability has to be backed up by consensus agreed reliable sources. ShelbyMarion (talk) 15:43, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- That's the problem. Reliable sources might only exist in her language, and would be difficult for us to find. Foxnpichu (talk) 19:41, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - That is not a reason to offer any opinion in this debate, but to search harder. Her Persian stage name and birth name are clearly visible in the article, and can be used to find websites in that language. Then you could use Google Translate to find if those sources are reliable. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 01:45, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Iranian alternative culture persons are systematically suppressed by the Iranian theocratic regime. The few available sources are naturally not from mainstream Iranian media. The Islamic Republic of Iran wants to portray its people and diaspora as it suits its agenda; I would not want to help with that.~ Elias Z. (talkallam) 06:16, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Since people have argued she is notable enough despite being deleted in the past, I suppose I will also throw in a ~~Weak Keep~~. Foxnpichu (talk) 11:23, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Honestly, having had a look at this again, I'm changing to Speedy Delete under G4 and borderline G11. This has been a really messy AfD, and I thought that the other Keep !votes were showing some signs of notability, but it seems to just be lots of promotion and claiming her high follower count is enough for notability (Remember, most of those "followers" could just be alt accounts and/or bots). Foxnpichu (talk) 12:25, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
keep This article is very popular among Iranians who have more than 3 million followers on Instagram. Mehdii1589 (talk) 15:06, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Like I've mentioned, Instagram followers are no way to indicate notability. Foxnpichu (talk) 12:19, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- My dear friend, if the number of followers is not a reason for fame, then it can be said that she is in famous programs like BBC And Manoto network is present and her songs have more than 10 million views on YouTube, so these are not celebrities, so what brings fame?

Mehdii1589 (talk) 20:23, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

- - You have clearly not read GNG, which indicates that, for an individual to be notable, they must have significant non-trivial coverage from non-promotional, reliable sources. Foxnpichu (talk) 21:40, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Repeat Comment - The last three votes were predicted in my "Neutral Comment" above, and none of them are based on established Wikipedia policy. Sahar is "famous" but this can't be proven because of government repression and that makes her notable...? WRONG. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 17:13, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - I vowed above to stay neutral for a while, but am compelled to cast my own vote in light of the poor knowledge of Wikipedia policies displayed by the "Keep" and "Weak Keep" voters here. I am absolutely convinced that the Iranian media suppresses talented entertainers, but that is a problem that is much bigger than Wikipedia, and Wikipedia is not equipped to fix it. The larger problem could be discussed at Censorship in Iran, but helping to promote unlucky entertainers is not one of Wikipedia's functions. If anyone thinks that notability guidelines should be loosened for Iranian entertainers but nobody else, go to Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) and try to make a convincing argument there. This particular discussion is about the notability of Sahar, and (as mentioned above) her Persian stage name and birth name are freely available in the article. Via Google Translate, a search brings up sites that are invariably promotional announcements and social media chatter that are informative but unreliable for our purposes here. Therefore she is not notable, as already decided multiple times over in Persian Wikipedia. Good luck to her. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 02:00, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Government repression means no press exposure and therefore no sources to cite. This is what drags all Iran-related subjects that are not regime-approved back to the dark.~ Elias Z. (talkallam) 06:17, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep Although the news is not significant, it could be argued that she meets WP:SINGER criteria, because 1) her label AVANG is the biggest Persian music label, 2) She seems to have popularity and radio airplay in her own country.Expertwikiguy (talk) 00:27, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, this is a tough AfD. I have a bad feeling it's going to close as No Consensus. Foxnpichu (talk) 16:06, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note the words used in the Keep/Weak Keep votes. The singer has "some popular songs" (Kieran207). She is "famous" but with no reliable evidence presented (Reza Amper, Mehdii1589). It "could be argued" that she is notable (Expertwikiguy). She is the victim of "repression" (Elias Z). Per WP policy, all of these are weak and useless arguments on behalf of the singer, and problems in Iran should be discussed elsewhere. I implore all voters and admins to observe the notice at the top on how this is not a majority vote. Again, good luck to her and other Iranian entertainers. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 21:22, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Repeat Comment - WP:SINGER#11 Sahar has been place in rotation ≥nationally by major music television network PMC (TV channel).Reza Amper (talk) 22:58, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Fails GNG, non-notable singer. Fatzaof (talk) 18:20, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Be realistic. source does not mean only CNN or BBC. Iranian news websites even cover this singer's selfies.^{(Link to site infected with Trojan SNH-gen [Trj] removed)} Many sites have published her biography. She has performed in the most important and one of the most watched TV programs/shows of Nowruz. Also she is constantly appearing on popular entertainment and music channels. And we have this BBC post. So, Keep. 90 TV (talk) 19:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, now this is interesting! Foxnpichu (talk) 19:46, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed a link from above as the site was infected with Trojan SNH-gen [Trj] --John B123 (talk) 19:55, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Glad you found it interesting! but can you tell me why?
Also I apologize for the first link. My browser is probably safe against these websites. 90 TV (talk) 20:00, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

She appears to have more non-trivial coverage than I thought. Foxnpichu (talk) 13:21, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep - the BBC article is what swings this from neutral to weak keep Spiderone 21:43, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. As I don't speak Persian, I'll refrain from expressing a keep/delete opinion, at least for now. I do want to mention draftification as another alternative. I am skeptical of the argumements advanced here by some participants that the lack of sources covering the subject is due to censorship and government suppression in Iran. There is a huge Iranian diaspora outside of Iran, with a similarly large number of publications (in Persian and in other languages), and those are not controlled by the Iranian government. If the subject is as popular and famous as is being claimed here, there would be some coverage of her in some of these diaspora publications. Perhaps such coverage does exists, but it still has to be found and produced. Nsk92 (talk) 09:51, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Doesn't meet general notability guidelines as she is not a notable singer. Rondolinda (talk) 23:20, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: "popular" and "instagram followers" aren't reasons to keep. Can we build a neutral, verifiable article with sufficient content to be encyclopedic? It appears this topic may be notable, and I realize non-English sources may be difficult to locate, but it seems that those who are arguing to keep the article would have access to those sources. I am relisting this in hopes those sources are brought forth.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 20:58, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Does the BBC article talk about her or about singers in general? If it was about her, I would think it supports her notability. Oaktree b (talk) 22:49, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Oaktree b: The BBC article is solely about her. ~ Elias Z. (talkallam) 06:24, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not delete the article. This person is a popular and well-known person among Iranians, although he is covered by the Iranian domestic media.

They do not because she operates outside Iran, which is why there are few resources Mehdii1589 (talk) 14:01, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 14:23, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: One more time with feeling. Can we get any more sourcing?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ♠PMC♠ (talk) 20:26, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, seriously, when it this AfD going to close? It has been going on for over a month. Foxnpichu (talk) 20:16, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I dont think it has been mentioned yet, but the fa.wiki AfD was closed as "Keep" on January 8th.-Kieran207 talk 02:27, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is best we do things our own way. Foxnpichu (talk) 22:56, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.