Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Holland Davis

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. In the end, the argument that NMUSIC is only an indicator of possible notability and GNG is not met with no significant coverage was more persuasive. So Why 15:47, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Holland Davis

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Fails WP:MUSICBIO and WP:GNG . ~~All of the sources are self-published~~ I should have written that the sourced do not discuss the subject in detail. Only passing mentions. I see no source to support notability. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:57, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Sources are not self-published. They are from 3rd party, independent magazine reviews, articles and music industry sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hollanddavis (talk • contribs) 17:08, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- You're right. I should have written that the sourced do not discuss the subject in detail. Only passing mentions. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:12, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - They substantiate the body of compositions as a songwriter whose works are award winning and have sold over 1,000,000 units (WOW Worship Blue) and 500,000 units (Top 25 Praise Songs) which meets the criteria for notability. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hollanddavis (talk • contribs) 17:26, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - That's clear, but a large body of works is not a criteria for inclusion. And the albums have sold well, but we need sources to support that your contributions on those compilation albums was the reason they sold well. Since your solo albums have not achieved success or notability, it follows that it's likely the act of being a compilation album that helped them to sell well. So unless you or your works have directly won an award, there is no notability. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:53, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe your reasoning is factual. To say a song on a compilation does not contribute to the sales of the compilation does not make sense. The reason why you include songs is to include the songs that will gain the most sales. WOW Worship is best of compilation selecting from the top 100 songs performed in churches at that time. Holland Davis did win several awards. He was awarded an ASCAP award for most played song in 2006 for Let It Rise. He was awarded one platinum and two gold records for WOW Worship and Top 25 Praise Songs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hollanddavis (talk • contribs) 01:10, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry you don't the simple logic I presented because it does make sense. For instance, in country music in particular, a single hit song will not usually increase sales for an album. There are instances where a musician in that category will have multiple singles and the album itself does not sell. However if those same hit singles are released on a compilation album along with other hits, then the compilation will sell. It's the fact that it's a collection of good songs that make compilation sell, not the presence of any one song. If you can show a source that states that the presence of your song boosted sales by even 1%, you would have a clear point. I suspect that if your song was removed from those compilations and another song from a different worship musician had been included, the album would have not have sold significantly better or worse. I would argue that "Good, Good Father" is a more notable song than "let It Arise" and neither Pat Barrett nor Anthony Brown have articles (althoughg Housefires does, based on the weight of their third album). And I'm curious why you're referring to yourself in the third person. The award was not for most played song in 2006, but one of the most performed Christian songs of the year. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:00, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You cannot compare Good Good Father with Let It Rise (it is not Let It Arise... maybe that's the issue, you've confused the song with a different song)... Good Good Father is recently released and still building notability. Let It Rise, achieved notability in the 90's as a top 100 CCLI song (which earned the song a place on the multi-platinum selling WOW Worship Blue) which is based on usage in churches and a Top 25 charting position with Big Daddy Weave again in the 2000's as well as a #2 position on the gospel charts by William Murphy. Can you name another worship song that has achieved Top 25 placements on Billboard in 2 different genres at the same time? As well as achieving multi-platinum status on a compilation with notability spanning 2 decades? It appears the song meets the criteria for notariety... inclusion on charts, winning multi-platinum status. It appears the songwriter has been credited as writing the song that has been recorded by notable groups. It appears to meet the notability requirements on several points. All it needs to do is meet one to be deemed notable. You are correct it was the the 25 most performed Christian songs of the year is the official category title. It was for the most plays on radio (which means it charted in the top 25) which again proves the notability of the song and the writer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.4.22.3 (talk) 15:29, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 17:36, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 17:36, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: About the composition,
Composers, songwriters, librettists or lyricists, may be notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria:
1. Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition.
[...]
3. Has had a work used as the basis for a later composition by a songwriter, composer or lyricist who meets the above criteria.

^{— WP:COMPOSER}
"Let It Rise" does not appear to be notable, though. Per WP:NSONG, emphasis mine:

Songs and singles are probably notable if they have been the subject of multiple, non-trivial published works whose sources are independent of the artist and label.

Also, from the "subject" footnote of that guideline:

The "subject" of a work means non-trivial treatment and excludes mere mention of the song/single, its musician/band or of its publication, price listings and other non-substantive detail treatment.

This does not appear to be the case, no matter how best-selling the album was. The whole "Awards" section might be inadequate praise, as these awards have never been awarded to the article subject themselves. About Holland Davis, I can not find independent, significant coverage that addresses him directly and in detail, per WP:GNG. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 17:55, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The ASCAP Award was awarded to Holland Davis as the writer of Let It Rise which was one of the most performed songs of 2006. it both establishes the notability of the song and the songwriter as ASCAP is a song based PRO. If it helps establish the case, I can list a number of records who have recorded Let It Rise from non-trivial works? It's easy to establish the value of the song. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hollanddavis (talk • contribs) 18:11, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As far as charting... Let It Rise appeared on the Billboard Hot Christian Adult Contemporary Chart 11/6/2006 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hollanddavis (talk • contribs) 18:18, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A standalone article about a song should satisfy the above criteria. Any of the following factors suggest that a song or single may be notable enough that a search for coverage in reliable independent sources will be successful.

Has been ranked on national or significant music or sales charts. (Note again that this indicates only that a song may be notable, not that it is notable.)

Has won one or more significant awards or honors, such as a Grammy, Juno, Mercury, Choice or Grammis award.

Has been independently released as a recording by several notable artists, bands, or groups. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hollanddavis (talk • contribs) 18:21, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Hollanddavis: The ASCAP Award was awarded to Holland Davis, as person? Not just mentioning the song? I can not find that at this link, and the reference link in the "Awards" section is broken. Please provide a reliable source for this statement. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:24, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

When quoting guidelines, and when copying text from any page, please mention where you have taken it from, where the quotation begins, and where the quotation ends. Please fix that above. Thank you. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:24, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I note that a user called User:hollanddavis is posting here, and has been very active and editing the page. Even if the subject is notable, there appears to be a serious conflict of interest which should be addressed. If User:hollanddavis believes the page should stay, then he needs to establish which aspects of WP:NMUSIC are satisfied. Ross-c (talk) 18:56, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The ASCAP listing the mention of the song and the writer is who the award went to... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hollanddavis (talk • contribs) 22:18, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep definite WP:COI and if this is kept the artist should not directly edit it but instead make suggestions on the talk page. However, he does seem to pass WP:NMUSIC with charting hit singles on billboard, and he has coverage in christian music reliable sources such as CrossRhythmns, regards Atlantic306 (talk) 17:18, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Atlantic306: WP:NMUSIC lists reasons why a musician may be notable. They are not automatically defined, not even necessarily "likely" to be notable if one of the examples listed there applies. Also, could you please specify which part of WP:NMUSIC you are referring to? The "reliable source" at CrossRhythms (link) appears to be an interview where the musician talks about themselves, which is explicitly not included by WP:NMUSIC#Criteria for musicians and ensembles, point 1. The "charting" in Christian music does not appear to be the same as appearing on "any country's national music chart" per point 2. The musician also does not appear to have "won or been nominated for a major music award, such as a Grammy, Juno, Mercury, Choice or Grammis award." per point 8. The word "major" is important here. I have not seen anything "major" in that regard yet. Please also note that "Wikipedia should not have a separate article on [...] any subject that, despite the person meeting the rules of thumb described above, for which editors ultimately cannot locate independent sources that provide in-depth information about the subject.", per WP:NMUSIC as well. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:26, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The album reviews at Cross Rythm are reliable intellectually independent sources that count towards WP:GNG, meeting one of the criteria on WP:NMUSIC means exactly that a musician is likely to be notable and the Billboard christian music charts are national charts as opposed to state or local and are widely quoted in christian music reliable sources so criteria 2 of WP:NMUSIC is clearly passed,regards Atlantic306 (talk) 11:59, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 07:16, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. This is a case where WP:MUSICBIO is met (Billboard's "Hot Christian Songs"and "Hot Gospel Songs" charts are sufficient for point #2), but WP:GNG is not (bearing in mind that "Multiple publications from the same author or organization are usually regarded as a single source for the purposes of establishing notability", the article has a total of one independent reliable source, and I haven't been able to find any sources not cited in the article). Given that MUSICBIO is a guideline clarifying what "may be notable", and that we can't write an article (especially one about a living person) without reliable sources, GNG has to take priority. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 23:15, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Redditaddict6 9 16:08, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.