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Wikidata:Property proposal/Generic
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See also
[edit]- Wikidata:Property proposal/Pending – properties which have been approved but which are on hold waiting for the appropriate datatype to be made available
- Wikidata:Properties for deletion – proposals for the deletion of properties
- Wikidata:External identifiers – statements to add when creating properties for external IDs
- Wikidata:Lexicographical data – information and discussion about lexicographic data on Wikidata
This page is for the proposal of new properties.
Before proposing a property
- Search if the property already exists.
- Search if the property has already been proposed.
- Check if you can give a similar label and definition as an existing Wikipedia infobox parameter, or if it can be matched to an infobox, to or from which data can be transferred automatically.
- Select the right datatype for the property.
- Read Wikidata:Creating a property proposal for guidelines you should follow when proposing new property.
- Start writing the documentation based on the preload form below by editing the two templates at the top of the page to add proposal details.
Creating the property
- Once consensus is reached, change status=ready on the template, to attract the attention of a property creator.
- Creation can be done 1 week after the creation of the proposal, by a property creator or an administrator.
- See property creation policy.
On this page, old discussions are archived. An overview of all archives can be found at this page's archive index. The current archive is located at 2024/08. |
General
[edit]voting date
[edit]Description | vote date, date on which people decided or cast their ballot |
---|---|
Represents | legal act (Q1864008) |
Data type | Point in time |
Template parameter | "date votation" in fr:modèle:Infobox Initiative suisse |
Example 1 | French constitutional referendum, 1958 (Q2319128)→28 septembre 1958 |
Example 2 | Federal popular initiative "for the protection against gun violence" (Q663241)→13 février 2011 |
Example 3 | 1932 German presidential election (Q706684)→13 mars 1932 + 10 avril 1932 |
Example 4 | Veil Act (Q3258255)→20 décembre 1974 |
Example 5 | 2024 United Kingdom general election (Q78851988)→4 juillet 2024 |
Example 6 | 2000 United States elections (Q7892455)→7 novembre 2000 |
Single-value constraint | yes but there can be exceptions (two-round system (Q615255)) |
Wikidata project | WikiProject Law (Q8486941) WikiProject Human Rights (Q115677469) |
Motivation
[edit]To help distinguish votes/votations/referendums/laws between announcement date (P6949) effective date (P7588) and date of promulgation (P7589) and publication date (P577)Bouzinac 💬●✒️●💛 05:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
Discussion
[edit] Notified participants of WikiProject Human rights Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 05:01, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
Notified participants of WikiProject Law Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 05:01, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- Given that there are going to be a lot of expections I don't think a single value constraint is a good idea. Many modern elections allow people to cast their ballets before polls open via mail-in voting. The current description would suggest that all dates where mail-in voting was acting would be a "date de vote". ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 21:42, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Bouzinac:, could you please clarify the comments above by @ChristianKl:. Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 03:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, it's difficult to model since you have plenty of ways to voting. There are countries where double voting is common (first round and second round), where you can cast ballot in different ways (voting proxy, mail, etc). There would be three way to solving this:
- either set a "date of vote/last day of possible vote" and having a single-value-constraint. It would mean the last day where a ballot can be casted/counted is the one to record.
- or set a "date of vote(s)" and having a single-value-suggestion. Letting people set the context with qualifyers.
- or decide to rephrase the property as to the main date (the most common significative date : that is the date where most of ballots are to be decisive/counted) + single value constraint
- I don't have any preference. Thoughts? Bouzinac 💬●✒️●💛 19:21, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
- @ChristianKl:, would you like to give your final opinion based on the response? Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 03:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Given that the property still lacks an English name, it's far from a state where it warrents anything like a final response.
- The ideal way forward would be to look at prior art and see how other people define the concept to see whether someone else has already come up with a good definition. Maybe, some UN agency that cares about voting has a controlled vocabulary that has a term? Maybe someone else? ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 11:51, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- @ChristianKl: proposal updated by @Swpb:. Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 04:08, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- @ChristianKl and @Swpb, would you like to give your opinion? Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 15:30, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't really have an opinion on the property, I just came here to fix the English label. Swpb (talk) 17:21, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- @ChristianKl and @Swpb, would you like to give your opinion? Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 15:30, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- @ChristianKl: proposal updated by @Swpb:. Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 04:08, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- @ChristianKl:, would you like to give your final opinion based on the response? Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 03:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, it's difficult to model since you have plenty of ways to voting. There are countries where double voting is common (first round and second round), where you can cast ballot in different ways (voting proxy, mail, etc). There would be three way to solving this:
- Sometimes there is also a span of time to vote, like the EU elections. And the span usually also applies to early voting or mail-in voting. As an example, 2024 European Parliament election in Sweden (Q113933095) had mail-in voting starting at 25 April, early voting in Sweden 22 May–8 June (but voting from embassies abroad had dates varying by country), and "regular" vote on 9 June. I think we need to allow for this complexity, and also should have examples of these kind from the start so that the preferred way of modeling it is clear. Ainali (talk) 08:05, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- FWIW for bills and legal acts, the voting date is represented using the point in time (P585) qualifier on voted on by (P9681) statements. The objects of voted on by (P9681) statements are usually instances of legislative house (Q10553309), but when a law is subject to a referendum, it may also be an entire electoral body (Q5290079) (see e.g. Q124635941). --C960657 (talk) 16:21, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- Of course I understand there can be a long span between first and last possible votes. I think the last date of possible cast ballot would be the most significative date for input as a date Bouzinac 💬●✒️●💛 08:46, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Bouzinac:, could you please clarify the comments above by @ChristianKl:. Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 03:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Oppose use properties described by C960657 Germartin1 (talk) 03:19, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
tastes like
[edit]Description | taste that a food or drink has |
---|---|
Data type | String |
Example 1 | apple pie (Q1068034)schmeckt nachapple (Q89) |
Example 2 | Cuba libre (Q471753)schmeckt nachcola (Q134041) |
Example 3 | Nogger (Q1995439)schmeckt nachchocolate (Q195) |
Wikidata project | Bunte Tüte (Q127598560) |
Motivation
[edit](Die Eigenschaft "schmeckt nach" ermöglicht eine präzise Beschreibung des Geschmacks von Lebensmitteln und Getränken auf Wikidata. Dies ist besonders nützlich für die Gastronomie, Lebensmittelwissenschaft und Konsumenten, die nach spezifischen Geschmäckern suchen. Darüber hinaus trägt die Eigenschaft zur Bereicherung der Datenbank bei und unterstützt die Verknüpfung von Produkten und deren Geschmacksprofilen auf einer strukturierten und zugänglichen Weise.) – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Geja3001 (talk • contribs) at 14:38, July 18, 2024 (UTC).
Discussion
[edit]- @Geja3001: this might be a good idea, but I don't think your examples make sense. Not all drinks taste like cola, for example! ArthurPSmith (talk) 19:33, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- I have revised the examples to better illustrate the proposal. What do you think? Histimtu (talk) 19:45, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
Comment When it comes to these examples at least I tend to oppose because I think this should be solved by specifying "Ingredients" and setting the qualifier "dominates taste" to these or via related/similar ways. --Prototyperspective (talk) 11:16, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
Comment Prototyperspective's solution could be accomplished without a new qualifier property, just a new Wikibase reason for preferred rank (Q71533077). Swpb (talk) 02:00, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Comment I prefer Prototyperspective's solution too, but this might be a difficult property to define even in that way and could be very dependent on the editor - many but not all people believe that Q65523167 (what I would call coriander) tastes like Q34396 (soap), and there is evidence that it does taste like that to them, but not at all to others. And there are likely a range of views of the flavour of Q855853, for instance, all shaped by local culinary comparisons... Zeromonk (talk) 08:32, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Comment In the Q1068034 example, what would be the difference/the value added with this existing statement ? https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1068034#P527
Comment The third example doesn't make sense, as it refers to a suite of ice creams, with the only common denominator that they all are dominated by vanilla ice cream. For example, the main variant described in the Swedish Wikipedia article connected to this has nougat, and not chocolate as a core (and that is the second of the three flavors described in the German article). Ainali (talk) 16:09, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
has semantic role (2nd proposal)
[edit]Description | item that describes a role in an event/action class |
---|---|
Data type | Item |
Domain | item, occurrence (Q1190554) |
Example 1 | military offensive (Q2001676)"has semantic role"attacker (Q31924059) |
Example 2 | military offensive (Q2001676)"has semantic role"defender (Q111729140) |
Example 3 | throwing (Q12898216)"has semantic role"actor (Q23894381) |
Example 4 | throwing (Q12898216)"has semantic role"projectile (Q49393) |
Example 5 | throwing (Q12898216)"has semantic role"target (Q1047579) |
Planned use | add to (possibly newly created) items describing occurrences/actions |
Expected completeness | always incomplete (Q21873886) |
This proposal is a substantial revision of Wikidata:Property proposal/has semantic role.
Motivation
[edit]Consider concepts that describe classes of events, actions and processes, roughly the subclasses of "occurrence (Q1190554)". For the lack of a better inclusive term, we call them "event/action" classes. (They are sometimes called "eventualities" in linguistic literature.) All event/action classes have core semantic roles, as illustrated by widely used resources such as "FrameNet (Q1322093)", "VerbNet (Q7920918)" and "PropBank (Q7250039)". For example, “eating" has an "eater" and something "eaten"; "throwing" has the "thrower", the "target" and the "projectile". These roles are not optional. Every act of "eating" has an "eater" and something "eaten" independently of how it is expressed and in what language. While Wikidata has over 300 existing properties for roles in event/action instances (e.g., "participant (P710)", "victim(s) (P8032)"), there are very few that are used with event/action classes. The two most common are "practiced by (P3095)" and "uses (P2283)". The vast majority of event/action classes have no statements describing semantic roles. For example, until very recently, "military offensive (Q2001676)" didn't have any semantic roles at all. Clearly, every military offensive has an attacker and a defendant. We added these roles using two statements:
military offensive (Q2001676)has characteristic (P1552)attacker (Q31924059)
military offensive (Q2001676)has characteristic (P1552)defender (Q111729140)
Here, "agent (Q392648)" and "theme (Q118826633)" are instances of "thematic relation (Q613930)". The property "has characteristic (P1552)" is extremely generic and has many uses. Our proposed “has semantic role” property would be a specific sub-property of "has characteristic (P1552)" for designating semantic roles.
Some of the existing event/action classes already have statements indicating semantic roles. For example, the creator in "creation (Q11398090)" is indicated by the "practiced by (P3095)" property. We would not change this, but, since this property has many uses, we added a qualifier:
creation (Q11398090)practiced by (P3095)creator (Q2500638)
The item "creation (Q11398090)" did not have a statement for the "object of creation" role. So, we added:
creation (Q11398090)has characteristic (P1552)artificial object (Q16686448)
If we had the proposed "has semantic role" property, we would have used it instead of the generic "has characteristic (P1552)" property.
This proposal is a part of a wider project: "Wikidata:WikiProject_Events_and_Role_Frames". We encourage the interested parties to visit and join the project discussion. Anatole Gershman (talk) 21:53, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
Discussion
[edit]Comment @ChristianKl, Arademaker, Swpb, ArthurPSmith: This is a significant revision of previous proposals that you have commented on. Peter F. Patel-Schneider (talk) 16:18, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
Strong support I find the proposal much improved and fully support it. Peter F. Patel-Schneider (talk) 23:18, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
Strong support I am very happy with this proposal and also strongly support it. MarthaStonePalmer (talk) 22:48, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
Strong support I definitely support the addition of the "has semantic role" property. HajicJanSr (talk) 17:09, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Strong support I fully support this property proposal. SkatjeMyers (talk) 16:25, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Strong support I think that this property would substantially improve the representation of eventualities in Wikidata. Kitchengoose (talk) 01:51, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
Strong support This revised proposal addresses all issues and I fully support it. Andrea Westerinen
Oppose. This property would introduce a competing modeling approach to what has already been adopted. This overlaps with:
- object of action (P12912) and object class of action (P12913), wherever the role is theme (Q118826633) or another type of undergoer (Q111335542);
- source of transfer (P12693) and destination of transfer (P12694), when the role is source (Q31464082) or recipient (Q20820253) (including destination (Q111335358));
- The proposed agent of action, when the role is agent (Q392648).
- (Edit: and many others, see table below. Swpb (talk) 14:38, 1 August 2024 (UTC))
- It would be best to continue the approach of properties like those, that represent semantic roles directly: there are only a few broad types of semantic role, and the properties (and proposal) I listed already cover the most important ones
(with instrument (Q6535309) being probably the most important role that doesn't yet have a property or proposal). That approach has the added advantage of allowing the properties to be used as either main properties or qualifiers, due to not needing the object of statement has role (P3831) qualifier: - military offensive (Q2001676)"agent of action"attacker (Q31924059)
- military offensive (Q2001676)object class of action (P12913)defender (Q111729140)
- Wirecard scandal (Q96655771)has effect (P1542)arrest (Q1403016)
object of action (P12912)Markus Braun (Q56855998) - Swpb (talk) 17:38, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Swpb It appears that the thrust of your argument is that there are already pairs of properties or property proposals for most broad thematic roles like agent, recipient/object, instrument, and goal. For example, object class of action (P12913) (created on 24 July 2024) is to be used to provide the selectional restriction (or perhaps selectional preference) class for the recipient/object of action/event classes, as is done for window cleaning (Q3124765) (but not for banishment (Q1716571)), and object of action (P12912) (created on the same date) is to be used to provide the actual recipient/object for action/event instances, as is done for Turukhansk exile of Joseph Stalin (Q4466445). Is there a place where all these properties and proposals can be found? Would proposals to create all the missing properties go through? Is there a property that uniquely connects the pairs? (I don't see one on either object class of action (P12913) or object of action (P12912).)
- What about fine-grained semantic roles like defender (Q111729140)? How are they to be handled? They are different from selectional preferences. I think that your example military offensive (Q2001676)object class of action (P12913)defender (Q111729140) is more like a selectional preference than a statement about a fine-grained semantic role, as individuals that play the defender (Q111729140) role in an action/event instance are not likely to be instances of defender (Q111729140) but rather instances of something like agent (Q24229398).
- I'm looking for general solution to fine-grained semantic roles, not a just few properties that cover part of the problem. Peter F. Patel-Schneider (talk) 20:22, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Your description of how object of action (P12912) and object class of action (P12913) work is correct and extensible to the other properties I listed. To my knowledge, no one has put together a list of these properties before, but I have done so in the table below. Obviously, I can't guarantee that any proposal will go through, but it looks like agent of action is in a strong position to do so. By "a property that uniquely connects the pairs", do you mean the pairs of properties in my bullets? Because the relationship between object of action (P12912) and object class of action (P12913) is not the same as that between source of transfer (P12693) and destination of transfer (P12694). As to the fine-grainedness of semantic roles, I think object of statement has role (P3831) would be sufficient where greater specificity is required – only with these properties, it would be narrowing down the sematic role indicated by the main property, unlike in the current proposal, where it is used to generalize from the selectional preference/requirement given by the value of the main statement to a broad semantic role. In fact, in that sense, the present proposal is misnamed: as you point out, defender (Q111729140), projectile (Q49393), etc. are selectional preferences/requirements, not semantic roles. But back to your concern about coverage: Anatole has listed 25 semantic roles in his table, which are covered on Wikidata as follows (this mapping may not be exact, but I think it's pretty darn close):
UMR semantic roles Wikidata property actor, causer "agent of action" (currently proposed) force, stimulus, cause, reason has cause (P828) undergoer, patient, theme, affectee object of action (P12912) or object class of action (P12913) recipient, goal destination of transfer (P12694) or destination point (P1444) (note, not has goal (P3712), which describes a desired state, whereas the UMR role seems to describe a location) experiencer no specific existing or proposed property, but probably largely covered by object of action (P12912)/object class of action (P12913) instrument uses (P2283) start start point (P1427) or source of transfer (P12693) companion together with (P1706) (note that a companion is relative to an agent rather than an action directly, which is why this is a qualifier) material/source source of material (P2647), made from material (P186), or source of transfer (P12693) as appropriate (this is really more than one semantic role) place location (P276) and its sub-properties temporal any Wikidata property with datatype 'time' (Q18636219) extent various numerical-valued properties manner has characteristic (P1552) purpose has goal (P3712) attribute has characteristic (P1552) and various others; this "role" is pretty nonspecific result has effect (P1542) direction direction (P560), towards (P5051), terminus (P559), depending on subject class
- Some of these properties also accept subjects that are not actions/occurrences, but that doesn't impede their use for filling in semantic slots for actions/occurrences. So you can see that the semantic roles given by UMR are already well covered, especially if "agent of action" is created, and in fact in many cases the existing properties are more fine-grained than UMR. Swpb (talk) 16:06, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Swpb Wow! I had no idea these roles could be so well represented by existing properties. I can quibble a bit. Experiencer and Stimulus are actually quite distinct and deserve more attention, and I'm still dithering about Manner and Attribute being "has characteristic" but on the whole this is pretty comprehensive. I would still want them all collected together under "has semantic role" which provides a way to cluster these properties together as serving this purpose. In addition, as broad as this list is, and as applicable as it is, there are always verbs in every language that have participants that do not fit any of these categories. "has semantic role" also provides a general backoff category for the participants that just don't fit anything else. Why can't we have both, "has semantic role" and "has agent of action"? MarthaStonePalmer (talk) 22:05, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- To me, the fact that this mapping surprises anyone suggests that the "Events and Role Frames" WikiProject has been working in too much isolation from the rest of the project, and should step back and reconsider the redundancy of its approach and its integration. The point is not that Wikidata already has a perfect property for every possible semantic role, but that the mapping of semantic roles to Wikidata properties is already extremely close, just through natural development that didn't originally have semantics in mind, and can continue to be brought closer. The table only lists the roles given by UMR, but I'm confident that for just about any other role you can think of, there is an appropriate property, and if not, one can be proposed. The usual way of grouping properties by function would be to create a Q-item like "Wikidata property that may be used to represent a semantic role", and making the applicable properties instances of it. The problem with having "has semantic role" and properties representing specific roles is that of overlap – on an item like military offensive (Q2001676), would you have both "agent of action"/object class of action (P12913) statements and "has semantic role" statements? I would think not, because the former accomplishes the task better. But then what items would you use "has semantic role" on? I think my table shows that in almost all cases, there is a better property to use. (To wit, the statement at the end of the Motivation section would be better expressed as creation (Q11398090)has effect (P1542)artificial object (Q16686448).) You could argue that "has semantic role" would just be a pseudo-parent property, not meant for use except as a place-holder when a better role-specific property doesn't yet exist, but it would not work that way in practice: generic properties (like of (P642) and the former "as") get used and abused. I see its creation as having a huge downside for very little upside, and I think the proposal should be withdrawn while the WikiProject contemplates the issue. Swpb (talk) 14:15, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Swpb Of course the correct approach would be to always use the more specific property if available. However, you still haven't addressed my point about recourse to a general "has semantic role" property when there are no appropriate more specific "role" properties available. On the other point, how is "thing thrown" a selection preference? The "thing" could be anything concrete, including a building if Superman is around, or anything abstract, as in an "election" being thrown. I take your point about defining a Q item to collect all of these "role" properties together, so I'll withdraw the suggestion of using "has semantic role" for that purpose. It could just be one of such properties used primarily for backoff purposes, and for things like Experiencer and Stimulus until we come up with better property definitions. I really don't see what we are suggesting as competing with what you are doing, but rather complementing it. MarthaStonePalmer (talk) 17:26, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- I thought I did address the idea of recourse to a general property when no appropriate property is available: first, there almost always is an appropriate property available, and second, from experience, when a "general" property exists, many editors will use it when they should be using a more specific property, instead of figuring out what that specific property is. That creates ongoing cleanup work for other editors. If "has semantic role" is created, I'd want to see the property description make VERY clear that it is not to be used where a more appropriate property exists, and direct editors to a table of such properties – but I think even with that, there will be a lot of lazy misapplication. If there is a gap in role-specific properties, like "experiencer", we should propose that property and then create statements with it, instead of creating temporary statements to be migrated later. As to the distinction between semantic roles and selection preferences when metaphor gets involved, I'll leave that to you linguists – it doesn't seem to bear directly on my main concern with the proposal. Swpb (talk) 18:10, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Swpb I totally agree with wanting to discourage use of a general property when more specific properties are available. We went through your table above in our meeting this afternoon, and we're perfectly happy with almost all of your mappings. We also much prefer the use of properties for semantic roles - they embody the implied semantic relationships more naturally. That's why we've persisted for the last 8 months in our endeavor to get at least one such property approved. We were just so daunted by the thought of trying the same thing with more than one property that we didn't even consider it. But if you've already done most of the work, more power to you, and we will happily tag along. With respect to the table, after due deliberation on whether together with (P1706) would really work since it is primarily a qualifier, and looking at several examples, we decided it's fine. The same for has characteristic (P1552) for Manner and Attribute. After initial reservations, we all came around. However, Extent and Direction need some refinement. Extent needs to be broader since it isn't always numerical. Any type of change in degree can be included in Extent, and could be described as imprecisely as "an extreme increase in foreclosures." Direction is also primarily a trajectory which needs to be carefully distinguished from an end point (up above in Goal), but that just means removing terminus (P559). That still leaves Experiencer and Stimulus, which can be addressed on another day. There are still two arguments in favor of "has semantic role". 1) As a place to include either your table above or at least a link to it, as well as a link to an appropriately revised version of our "Wikidata:WikiProject_Events_and_Role_Frames" and clear directions about using specific roles if possible;
- 2) As a catchall when the traditional labels aren't good fits. In English there are predicating elements like "contain, exceed, yield," and "possess" whose arguments don't easily fit traditional roles. A "storage tank" that contains toxic chemicals isn't really an Agent or an Undergoer. Similarly for the "performance" in "her performance exceeds expectations". FrameNet labels the combatants in "The combatants yielded to the invaders" as Capitulators, again, not exactly Agents. Same for Fiona in "Fiona possessed a quirky sense of humor and flaming red hair that were hard to forget." This is one of the reasons FrameNet ended up with over 2000 distinct Frame Elements. Maybe those kinds of events will rarely, if ever, get modeled in WikiData, but, just in case, we could handle them without going to those lengths. MarthaStonePalmer (talk) 23:46, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Martha, I'm delighted your team is recognizing the power of existing properties to express semantic relationships, and I'm happy to work with you to clean up the mappings and identify gaps – I made the table in about 10 minutes, so I'm not surprised it isn't perfect. I assume the best place for those discussions will be on the WikiProject; you can ping me as needed. That said, I can't accept your two remaining arguments for the "has semantic role" property:
- 1) Properties are meant to be used; if the primary goal is to make it easier for editors to find a different property they should really be using, there are much more appropriate ways to do that: properties are categorized by subject, and there are navigation boxes for properties in different subject areas. There are a number of tools for searching for properties, such as the Prop explorer. There are about 650 subclasses that are used to organize and link related properties together. And there are numerous properties for linking two properties directly, including related property (P1659), subproperty of (P1647), complementary property (P8882), and inverse property (P1696); and properties for this type (P1963) to indicate properties that are appropriate for a given class. And editors can create and share their own means of organizing properties; I have one of my own. Creating a new property just to direct editors to a list of properties is not appropriate.
- 2) For the examples you give of statements that might require a catchall, there are, again, already properties that are appropriate, or could be appropriate with very little tweaking: without knowing the exact senses you have in mind, we have contains (P4330), greater than (Q47035128) ("exceeds"), product or material produced or service provided (P1056) and by-product (P2821) (various senses of "yield"), owner of (P1830) and has characteristic (P1552) for different senses of "possess". By simply adding properties for specific relations as the need arises, Wikidata has already developed quite a deep bench, and when a new need is demonstrated, it's not usually hard to get it met, either through a new property or rescoping an existing one. This model does not need, and in fact in some ways suffers from, the presence of catchall properties.
- For those reasons, it's still my position that this proposal should be withdrawn. If everything I'm saying is wrong and there's a real need for this property, it won't be hard to get it approved later, but if it is found to be problematic after being created and used, it will be a bit of work to get the cat back in the bag. Swpb (talk) 15:13, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Swpb Your position appears to be that there are already existing properties (namely the properties for thematic roles) that cover some of the cases where "has semantic role" is to be used for and that the missing ones can easily be added. But what about cases where there is no existing (or even not existing but generally accepted) thematic role? Martha has mentioned several of these but there are many others. I don't expect that there are properties in Wikidata for all the possible situations that could arise and it doesn't seem possible to handle these situations by creating a new property on a case-by-case basis. The proposal here is that "has semantic role" can be used as a general property and it will cover all the situations without having to create a lot of new properties. Is there another way that this could be handled? If so, what is it? Without a fallback I don't see how this important kind of information can be captured in Wikidata. Peter F. Patel-Schneider (talk) 14:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- My position is that there are existing properties not just for some, but for virtually all cases, with greater or lesser specificity. I think I've provided appropriate properties for every case given so far; if there are, as you say, many other cases that do not fall into any of the roles already mapped to existing properties, I have yet to see them. As I've explained, the problem with "general" or "fallback" properties is that they always end up being used in place of more appropriate, specific properties. This is not idle speculation; this is exactly what happened with the now-deprecated "as" property, and the current property of (P642) which is taking an enormous effort to deprecate. There is certainly no gap in Wikidata's ability to express semantic roles that is large enough to justify creating another such headache. The biggest gap is that of agent, and there is an active proposal to close it, which AWesterinen of the Event Roles and Frames WikiProject is opposing. Swpb (talk) 15:24, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Swpb Your position appears to be that there are already existing properties (namely the properties for thematic roles) that cover some of the cases where "has semantic role" is to be used for and that the missing ones can easily be added. But what about cases where there is no existing (or even not existing but generally accepted) thematic role? Martha has mentioned several of these but there are many others. I don't expect that there are properties in Wikidata for all the possible situations that could arise and it doesn't seem possible to handle these situations by creating a new property on a case-by-case basis. The proposal here is that "has semantic role" can be used as a general property and it will cover all the situations without having to create a lot of new properties. Is there another way that this could be handled? If so, what is it? Without a fallback I don't see how this important kind of information can be captured in Wikidata. Peter F. Patel-Schneider (talk) 14:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- I thought I did address the idea of recourse to a general property when no appropriate property is available: first, there almost always is an appropriate property available, and second, from experience, when a "general" property exists, many editors will use it when they should be using a more specific property, instead of figuring out what that specific property is. That creates ongoing cleanup work for other editors. If "has semantic role" is created, I'd want to see the property description make VERY clear that it is not to be used where a more appropriate property exists, and direct editors to a table of such properties – but I think even with that, there will be a lot of lazy misapplication. If there is a gap in role-specific properties, like "experiencer", we should propose that property and then create statements with it, instead of creating temporary statements to be migrated later. As to the distinction between semantic roles and selection preferences when metaphor gets involved, I'll leave that to you linguists – it doesn't seem to bear directly on my main concern with the proposal. Swpb (talk) 18:10, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Swpb Of course the correct approach would be to always use the more specific property if available. However, you still haven't addressed my point about recourse to a general "has semantic role" property when there are no appropriate more specific "role" properties available. On the other point, how is "thing thrown" a selection preference? The "thing" could be anything concrete, including a building if Superman is around, or anything abstract, as in an "election" being thrown. I take your point about defining a Q item to collect all of these "role" properties together, so I'll withdraw the suggestion of using "has semantic role" for that purpose. It could just be one of such properties used primarily for backoff purposes, and for things like Experiencer and Stimulus until we come up with better property definitions. I really don't see what we are suggesting as competing with what you are doing, but rather complementing it. MarthaStonePalmer (talk) 17:26, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- To me, the fact that this mapping surprises anyone suggests that the "Events and Role Frames" WikiProject has been working in too much isolation from the rest of the project, and should step back and reconsider the redundancy of its approach and its integration. The point is not that Wikidata already has a perfect property for every possible semantic role, but that the mapping of semantic roles to Wikidata properties is already extremely close, just through natural development that didn't originally have semantics in mind, and can continue to be brought closer. The table only lists the roles given by UMR, but I'm confident that for just about any other role you can think of, there is an appropriate property, and if not, one can be proposed. The usual way of grouping properties by function would be to create a Q-item like "Wikidata property that may be used to represent a semantic role", and making the applicable properties instances of it. The problem with having "has semantic role" and properties representing specific roles is that of overlap – on an item like military offensive (Q2001676), would you have both "agent of action"/object class of action (P12913) statements and "has semantic role" statements? I would think not, because the former accomplishes the task better. But then what items would you use "has semantic role" on? I think my table shows that in almost all cases, there is a better property to use. (To wit, the statement at the end of the Motivation section would be better expressed as creation (Q11398090)has effect (P1542)artificial object (Q16686448).) You could argue that "has semantic role" would just be a pseudo-parent property, not meant for use except as a place-holder when a better role-specific property doesn't yet exist, but it would not work that way in practice: generic properties (like of (P642) and the former "as") get used and abused. I see its creation as having a huge downside for very little upside, and I think the proposal should be withdrawn while the WikiProject contemplates the issue. Swpb (talk) 14:15, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Swpb Wow! I had no idea these roles could be so well represented by existing properties. I can quibble a bit. Experiencer and Stimulus are actually quite distinct and deserve more attention, and I'm still dithering about Manner and Attribute being "has characteristic" but on the whole this is pretty comprehensive. I would still want them all collected together under "has semantic role" which provides a way to cluster these properties together as serving this purpose. In addition, as broad as this list is, and as applicable as it is, there are always verbs in every language that have participants that do not fit any of these categories. "has semantic role" also provides a general backoff category for the participants that just don't fit anything else. Why can't we have both, "has semantic role" and "has agent of action"? MarthaStonePalmer (talk) 22:05, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Some of these properties also accept subjects that are not actions/occurrences, but that doesn't impede their use for filling in semantic slots for actions/occurrences. So you can see that the semantic roles given by UMR are already well covered, especially if "agent of action" is created, and in fact in many cases the existing properties are more fine-grained than UMR. Swpb (talk) 16:06, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Peter F. Patel-Schneider, MarthaStonePalmer, HajicJanSr, SkatjeMyers, Kitchengoose, AWesterinen: Pinging to make you aware of my rationale for opposing, in case it affects your thoughts on the proposal. Swpb (talk) 17:50, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Swpb Thanks for your thoughtful comments. We could indeed use object class of action (P12913) for most selectional preferences. Events doesn't always come across as actions, as so it might be a bit counter-intuitive at times. We can also keep object of action (P12912) where it is currently being used, just as we can keep "practiced by" for the "eater" of "eating." We can add it to our table of semantic roles in our Project description, "Wikidata:WikiProject_Events_and_Role_Frames". But if you look at that table you'll see that we have a lot of additional roles, most of which do not have properties already defined. One of our main goals is to come up with a consistent predictable way of defining event/action participants and an easily understood process for doing so. I don't see why we couldn't say that object of action (P12912) is a subproperty of our proposed "has semantic role", unifying what are currently quite diverse ways of specifying participants. It is hard to do that for "practiced by" since it has a lot of alternative uses, but maybe that isn't true of object of action (P12912)? MarthaStonePalmer (talk) 23:08, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Since object of action (P12912) and object class of action (P12913) extend to events that are not actions per se, their labels or descriptions could be adjusted to reflect this, but I have found that in most cases where there is an undergoer, the event is an action. You say that most of the semantic roles in Anatole's table don't have properties, but I don't believe that's true – the existing properties just haven't been explicitly mapped to semantic roles before, but I have done so in the table in my reply to Peter above. Logically, object of action (P12912) and the other role-specific properties could be sub-properties of the one proposed here (which is misnamed because it really indicates a selectional preference/requirement rather than a semantic role), but I don't see when you'd ever want to use the latter property when the more specific former ones cover all the roles we have identified. Swpb (talk) 16:18, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Swpb I commented on your table up above. I'm impressed with the coverage provided by existing properties, but I still see an hierarchy of semantic role properties as being valuable as explained above. I don't agree when you say "has semantic role" is really for selectional preferences, not roles, although I can see how "defender (Q111729140)" and "projectile (Q49393)" might have caused that confusion. Selectional preferences are really a separate issue. Our intention is to use the participant descriptions in the PropBank Frame Files that are intended to be very action specific and very intuitive. With that in mind we should have said "entity attacked" rather than "defender (Q111729140)". Since "defender (Q111729140)" was an existing Q item that was close to "entity attacked" we used it. But a selectional preference for either "entity attacked" or "defender (Q111729140)" would be different, something like "animate"/"organization". "projectile (Q49393)" is actually "thing thrown" in the PropBank frame and that's what we should have used instead. "projectile (Q49393)" is even more confusing. Our idea is to populate the participant information semi-automatically using both the PropBank specific descriptions as well as the more general UMR roles that you have listed in the table which are also associated with the PropBank function tags. MarthaStonePalmer (talk) 22:35, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've mostly responded above, but I'll add here that I really don't think the problem is one of imprecise labels. For all intents and purposes, "projectile" and "thing thrown" are the same thing. On an earlier version of this proposal, I argued against creating a whole set of semantic-derived items that more or less mirror existing items; that's just a recipe for confusion. This is the reason we have aliases. Swpb (talk) 14:22, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Swpb I commented on your table up above. I'm impressed with the coverage provided by existing properties, but I still see an hierarchy of semantic role properties as being valuable as explained above. I don't agree when you say "has semantic role" is really for selectional preferences, not roles, although I can see how "defender (Q111729140)" and "projectile (Q49393)" might have caused that confusion. Selectional preferences are really a separate issue. Our intention is to use the participant descriptions in the PropBank Frame Files that are intended to be very action specific and very intuitive. With that in mind we should have said "entity attacked" rather than "defender (Q111729140)". Since "defender (Q111729140)" was an existing Q item that was close to "entity attacked" we used it. But a selectional preference for either "entity attacked" or "defender (Q111729140)" would be different, something like "animate"/"organization". "projectile (Q49393)" is actually "thing thrown" in the PropBank frame and that's what we should have used instead. "projectile (Q49393)" is even more confusing. Our idea is to populate the participant information semi-automatically using both the PropBank specific descriptions as well as the more general UMR roles that you have listed in the table which are also associated with the PropBank function tags. MarthaStonePalmer (talk) 22:35, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Since object of action (P12912) and object class of action (P12913) extend to events that are not actions per se, their labels or descriptions could be adjusted to reflect this, but I have found that in most cases where there is an undergoer, the event is an action. You say that most of the semantic roles in Anatole's table don't have properties, but I don't believe that's true – the existing properties just haven't been explicitly mapped to semantic roles before, but I have done so in the table in my reply to Peter above. Logically, object of action (P12912) and the other role-specific properties could be sub-properties of the one proposed here (which is misnamed because it really indicates a selectional preference/requirement rather than a semantic role), but I don't see when you'd ever want to use the latter property when the more specific former ones cover all the roles we have identified. Swpb (talk) 16:18, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Swpb I still strongly support this "has semantic role" proposal and indeed have issues with the [agent (class) of action proposal] (as noted on that page). I am very supportive of reusing specific properties for instance level declarations such as "agent of action", object of action (P12912), uses (P2283) for the role of instruments, etc. Please see my comments on the "agent of action" proposal. AWesterinen (talk) 05:26, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Swpb Thanks for your thoughtful comments. We could indeed use object class of action (P12913) for most selectional preferences. Events doesn't always come across as actions, as so it might be a bit counter-intuitive at times. We can also keep object of action (P12912) where it is currently being used, just as we can keep "practiced by" for the "eater" of "eating." We can add it to our table of semantic roles in our Project description, "Wikidata:WikiProject_Events_and_Role_Frames". But if you look at that table you'll see that we have a lot of additional roles, most of which do not have properties already defined. One of our main goals is to come up with a consistent predictable way of defining event/action participants and an easily understood process for doing so. I don't see why we couldn't say that object of action (P12912) is a subproperty of our proposed "has semantic role", unifying what are currently quite diverse ways of specifying participants. It is hard to do that for "practiced by" since it has a lot of alternative uses, but maybe that isn't true of object of action (P12912)? MarthaStonePalmer (talk) 23:08, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- @AWesterinen: You're welcome to maintain your support, but, with respect, I don't think you've engaged with any of my criticisms of this proposal, either here or on the agent of action proposal page. I've responded to your comments on that proposal there, but I don't see anything to respond to with respect to this proposal. Swpb (talk) 14:25, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Support I think this makes sense. However it looks like examples 4 and 5 are mixed up? ArthurPSmith (talk) 17:41, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- @User:ArthurPSmith, I think you're right. I switched them. Thanks for catching that!MarthaStonePalmer talk]]) 20:56, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- I would think projectile (Q49393) is the instrument (Q6535309) of throwing (Q12898216) rather than a theme or destination. Swpb (talk) 17:45, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- @MarthaStonePalmer, so an (optional) instrument in "throwing" could be gloves? Or something like a slingshot (but in a throwing context)? Or simply the hand? All of these seem correct to me in one way or another Egezort (talk) 19:42, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Swpb. Instruments as thematic relations are typically intermediaries. The key in I unlocked the door with a skeleton key/ the screwdriver in I repaired the fan with a screwdriver, etc. In the prototypical case the Agent has contact with the Instrument and the Instrument has contact with the Patient or Theme. In the throwing event, the frisbee isn't being used by the agent to accomplish a particular purpose, it is the thing in motion as a direct result of the Agent's action, so it wouldn't typically be labeled as an Instrument. MarthaStonePalmer (talk) 20:51, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Egezort ‘Threw the ball with my hand’ or ‘kick the wall with my foot’ sound a bit odd because the hand and the foot are already implicit, but you can certainly ‘hit someone with a fist/stick/pillow/etc’ where they are alternative instruments. Or ‘catch the ball with a baseball glove/catcher’s mitt/a racket/etc.’. MarthaStonePalmer (talk) 15:39, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- @MarthaStonePalmer, so an (optional) instrument in "throwing" could be gloves? Or something like a slingshot (but in a throwing context)? Or simply the hand? All of these seem correct to me in one way or another Egezort (talk) 19:42, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I would think projectile (Q49393) is the instrument (Q6535309) of throwing (Q12898216) rather than a theme or destination. Swpb (talk) 17:45, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- @User:ArthurPSmith, I think you're right. I switched them. Thanks for catching that!MarthaStonePalmer talk]]) 20:56, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
exponent of base unit
[edit]Description | a qualifier of derived from base unit (P12571) used to describe the exponent of the unit |
---|---|
Data type | Quantity |
Domain | item, derived unit (Q3550844) |
Allowed units | dimensionless |
Example 1 | square metre (Q25343)derived from base unit (P12571)metre (Q11573) |
Example 2 | metres per second squared (Q1051665)derived from base unit (P12571)metre (Q11573) |
Example 3 | metres per second squared (Q1051665)derived from base unit (P12571)second (Q11574) |
Motivation
[edit]Right now, the best way to get the exponents in units is to parse the defining formula (P2534). This proposal aims to allow those values to be represented in a more structured format. --ScienceD90 (talk) 16:00, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
Discussion
[edit] Notified participants of WikiProject Mathematics ScienceD90 (talk) 11:57, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
Comment what's the canonical way to apply this? metre per square second could also be derived from the square second with exponent -1, and so on. Of course there's usually a preferred form, but would adding both be ok? Uniwah (talk) 16:36, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think that the units it qualifies should only be instances of base unit (Q810225) as there would be harder to tell what groups of derived units actually describe the unit. If someone wants the exponents of derived units, it should be possible to calculate that from the base units. -- ScienceD90 (talk) 01:23, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree completely with ScienceD90's comment above. The Anome (talk) 12:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think that the units it qualifies should only be instances of base unit (Q810225) as there would be harder to tell what groups of derived units actually describe the unit. If someone wants the exponents of derived units, it should be possible to calculate that from the base units. -- ScienceD90 (talk) 01:23, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
Support worth having. The Anome (talk) 12:57, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
dénomination
[edit]Description | value of a currency or type of currency |
---|---|
Represents | coin type (Q113813711) |
Data type | Item |
Domain | coin type (Q113813711), coin (Q41207), currency (Q8142) |
Example 1 | RRC 415/1 (Q50298610)→denarius (Q187776) |
Example 2 | Aureus RIC I Tiberius 29 (Q28038924)→aureus (Q476078) |
Example 3 | Q94398464→sestertius (Q208041) |
Planned use | import of type of coins and coins in Antiquity |
Number of IDs in source | infinite |
Expected completeness | always incomplete (Q21873886) |
See also | face value (P3934) |
Wikidata project | WikiProject Numismatics (Q10858447) |
Motivation
[edit] Notified participants of WikiProject Numismatics
Notified participants of WikiProject Antiquity
Denomination is an essential caracteristic of any numismatic description of coin (Q41207) or coin type (Q113813711). We already have face value (P3934) to express the value of currency, but it can't be apply for a lot of coins for example in Antiquity where the value of the coin or type of coin is never inscribed and the the value of metal in the coin is the denomination. At the moment, people are mostly using subclass of (P279) and a bit instance of (P31) to express the value of ancient coins, but it would be better if we have a specific property for this.
Furthermore, it would also be possible to map this property to Nomisma, a leading platform in numismatic, which already have this kind of property in their ontology. Liber008 (talk) 16:12, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Discussion
[edit]Shouldn't this be in "instance of", like I did here? A single coin is definitely not a "coin type", right? --Tolanor (talk) 17:11, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Tolanor Actually, this item is a type of coin (RRC 415) and should be model as such. The Nomisma infrastructure seems to have some issues today, but when it will be working, you can see here that it represent a type of coin in Crawford's work: Roman Republican Coinage. For example there is some of them for sale here. --Liber008 (talk) 17:43, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- I see, I didn't dig enough. Then the proposal makes sense. --Tolanor (talk) 18:22, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Support --Epìdosis 19:06, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Makes sense
Support --DerMaxdorfer (talk) 22:24, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Support --JBradyK (ToposText) (talk) 07:05, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
Support Useful property. It also makes querying for particular denominations a bit easier, even when face values can be retrieved. TiagoLubiana (talk) 14:35, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Comment I started the creation of this property at denomination (P12949) but Wikidata seems to be having issues right now that are preventing me from being able to add any further statements. I'll return to this later and see if the problem has resolved itself. --Lewis Hulbert (talk) 11:27, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Reported here as I'm still having troubles with it. Lewis Hulbert (talk) 15:06, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Lewis Hulbert, It's happened several times with me, and all the times when I added one "Wikidata property example"! I believe now you will be able to complete, as it’s taking 3-8 hours to back in normal. Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 23:38, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Reported here as I'm still having troubles with it. Lewis Hulbert (talk) 15:06, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Liber008, Epìdosis, DerMaxdorfer, JBradyK, TiagoLubiana:
Done: denomination (P12949), sorry about the delay :). --Lewis Hulbert (talk) 10:31, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
objects of action have role (aliases: role of objects of action | undergoers have role | patients have role )
[edit]Description | role that objects of this action take on in the context of this action. (For selectional restrictions, use object class of action (P12913) instead.) |
---|---|
Represents | role (Q4897819) of object (Q175026) |
Data type | Item |
Example 1 | employee recognition (Q96377259)objects of action have roleemployee (Q703534) (where object class of action (P12913) would be human (Q5)) |
Example 2 | freight transport (Q651658)objects of action have rolecargo (Q319224) (where object class of action (P12913) would be goods (Q28877)) |
Example 3 | (as qualifier) interference (Q283117)has effect (P1542)ejection (Q5350113) |
See also | object class of action (P12913), object of statement has role (P3831) |
Motivation
[edit]This property will offload a use case from the recently created object class of action (P12913). It has been observed that values of that property usually represent selectional preference (Q124051768) (i.e., classes to which individual objects of the action belong permanently), but in some cases, the values instead represent a role (Q4897819), which individual objects only take on in the context of that action, rather than as a defining feature. Furthermore, in some cases it may be valuable to specify both selectional preferences and roles for the same type of action, which cannot be done with the overloaded property. Under this proposal, object class of action (P12913) will retain the selectional preference (Q124051768) meaning (with its description clarified accordingly), and this new property will take on the role (Q4897819) meaning.
Whereas object of statement has role (P3831) identifies roles inhabited by the (syntactic) object of the statement it qualifies, this property identifies roles of the (semantic) object of the action identified by the statement. For example, on interference (Q283117)has effect (P1542)ejection (Q5350113), the object of the statement is ejection (Q5350113), whereas the objects of that action are humans with roles of baseball player (Q10871364) or spectator (Q63443976). The latter roles require the proposed property to express accurately. Swpb (talk)
Discussion
[edit]monument ID in the archive of Linz
[edit]Description | Identifier in the monument database published by the regional government of Linz, Austria containing ≈1,700 objects |
---|---|
Data type | External identifier |
Allowed values | [1-9]\d* |
Example | |
Source | https://stadtgeschichte.linz.at/denkmal/ |
Formatter URL | https://stadtgeschichte.linz.at/denkmal/Default.asp?action=denkmaldetail&id=$1 |
Motivation
[edit]Related to Wikidata:WikiProject WLM/Mapping tables/AT (de) and could be used in de:Vorlage:Denkmalliste Österreich Tabellenzeile, de:Vorlage:WLPA-AT-Zeile once the template uses Wikidata values. -- Hans Koberger (talk) 08:06, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
Discussion
[edit]@Herzi Pinki, Regiomontanus, Braveheart: I'm happy to hear your opinion. :) –- Hans Koberger (talk) 08:06, 22 August 2024 (UTC) @Maclemo: --Herzi Pinki (talk) 09:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
Support --Herzi Pinki (talk) 09:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
Support -- Clemens 14:05, 22 August 2024 (UTC) Useful for a direct link to the city's website and to keep up with them when they are taken down from the site (what sometimes happens).
- Please add three examples, not just one. Midleading (talk) 14:25, 23 August 2024 (UTC)