Talk:Abstract Wikipedia

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are sentences "z-objects"?

are sentences planned to be "z-objects"? --QDinar (talk) 13:02, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, a sentence would be represented as a Z-Object. E.g. "Jupiter is the largest planet in the Solar System." would be represented as Superlative(subject: Jupiter, quality: large, class: planet, location constraint: Solar System) (and all of that would be ZIDs, so in real maybe something like Z19349(Q319, Z29393, Q634, Q544). -- DVrandecic (WMF) (talk) 22:42, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

will programming languages be converted to own language first?

is wikifunctions planned to have its own language? is it something like lambda calculus? are all other supported languages planned to be converted to that own language first, before being interpreted? --QDinar (talk) 13:02, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

if there is an own language, i would like to see some small example code in it, like for fibonacci sequence. --QDinar (talk) 18:02, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

No. Code written in Python will be evaluated by a Python interpreter, code in JavaScript by a JavaScript interpreter, Code in C by a C compiler and then executed, etc. What little system we have to compose such function calls together will be on top of code in such programming languages, not a common runtime we convert everything to first. -- DVrandecic (WMF) (talk) 22:46, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

i have not seen that this is clearly written in the description pages. please, write, and/or link to that place, from here. --QDinar (talk) 19:48, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

what api will be used?

is http-web api planned for wikifunctions? is the functions planned to be called through web api or other way? --QDinar (talk) 13:02, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

We offer already a Web API to call functions from Wikifunctions, see https://notwikilambda.toolforge.org/w/api.php?action=help&modules=wikilambda_function_call. We might not always use the API for our internal use cases (e.g. Wikipedia calling a function might not go through an HTTP request), it depends on what is efficient. -- DVrandecic (WMF) (talk) 22:49, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

why not to use ready programming language implementations?

what do you think about idea to just use usual programming language interpreters? ie code can be in wiki page, and in can be runned. some dangerous functions can be removed or turned off in order to save from hacking/vandalism. --QDinar (talk) 13:02, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Great idea - and we do that! Python code is run by the standard Python implementation, JavaScript by Node, etc. The way we hope to avoid dangerous functions is by running them in their own containers with limited resources and no access to the outside world. The architecture is described here. -- DVrandecic (WMF) (talk) 22:51, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

what are z-ids?

what is origin of "z" letter in z-ids? are there already z-ids in wikidata? as i understood, z-ids just replace multiple natural language strings, is it so? if it is so, why function names like "Object_with_modifier_and_of" also not replaced with them? the code in right block in https://notwikilambda.toolforge.org/wiki/Z10104 is hard to understand. are the z-codes in it planned to be replaced with natural language strings? --QDinar (talk) 13:02, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

You are totally right! "Object_with_modifier_and_of" is just the English name of the function, in reality it is identified by a ZID, and it will have a different name in Arabic, and in Russian, and in German, and in Tatar, etc. That is true for all of our functions. The "and" function is called "i" in Croatian, but the ZID in Notwikilambda is Z10026. In the User Interface though, we will try to hide all ZIDs, and instead display the names in your language. -- DVrandecic (WMF) (talk) 22:55, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

there are 5 questions in main text (paragraph, body) part of my question. you answered third and 4th. what can you say about others? --QDinar (talk) 19:23, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

response to an old reply (in the archives) about ML

in Talk:Abstract_Wikipedia/Archive_2#Wikidata_VS_Wikipedia_-_General_structure user:DVrandecic (WMF) said:

1. "we don't have automatic translation for many languages"

2. "The hope is that Abstract Wikipedia will generate content of a consistently high quality that it can be incorporated by the local Wikipedias without the necessity to check each individual content. .... translation doesn't help with updates. If the world changes, and the English Wikipedia article gets updated, there is nothing that keeps the local translation current."

i want to say that:

1. i saw news saying yandex has developed machine translation for bashkir language, using tatar language, because this languages are very similar, and there are more content in tatar. (so, more languages may appear, (in ML), using such tehniques).

2.

i doubt that the way you are going to use is going to provide more stable results than the ML. users will constantly edit the functions, renderers, constructors, the abstract code, and probably something is going to brake also. so, an idea have come just in my mind: in case of editing a renderer, if all cases of using that renderer are linked to it, editor may check all the use cases before applying changes... if that use cases are not too many...

it is possible also to make ML automatical updates more easy to check. if after one or several updates some user is notified with them, and given an easy to read page showing differences that are made in original page, and differences that are going to be made in translation.

though, there is a stronger argument against ML in this forum in Talk:Abstract_Wikipedia/Archive_3#Might_deep_learning-based_NLP_be_more_practical? by user:Stevenliuyi: "a ML-based system will make sentences more fluent, it could potentially turn a true statement into a false one".

--QDinar (talk) 23:11, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

I very much look forward and hope that more high quality machine translation will become available for everyone. I think there's a window of opportunity where Wikifunctions / Abstract Wikipedia will provide knowledge in high quality in languages where machine translation will not yet.

I like the idea of showing the results when editing. Our first implementation of that idea is to do that with the testers. But as the system develops, we will probably be able to use more of the system to let the contributors understand the impact of their edits. -- DVrandecic (WMF) (talk) 23:16, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Boilerplate functions

From my point of view Scratch is a good example for a low-coding-plattform. It is easy possible on it to create a program. In Scrath there are Boilerplates with gaps and it is possible with drag and drop to take the different parts that have different looks and it is possible to connect the parts to a function if they can belong together. From my view for at least some functions that principle could be a possibilty with a lower barrier for creating functions after the boiler plate templates could be translated into other languages to reach people with lower coding knowledge. Making it for them possible to create a function. Have you thinked about offering a possibility like that in the User Interface.--Hogü-456 (talk) 20:42, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

I created a script and with what it is possible to convert a script in a text file in a COBOL-like language to code in R. The definitions of the structure of the sentences are in a CSV-File and you can find the code in https://public.paws.wmcloud.org/User:Hog%C3%BC-456/TexttoCode/Structured%20Text%20to%20Code/. This is an example for what functions in Wikifunctions could be used and I think that reduces the barrier to create a program and if I create more examples I collect through that functions. For me it is important that it will be possible in Wikifunctions to use the functions Offline. For example in schools there are sometimes restrictions regarding web services and it is from my point of view good if data is not transferred to another party if not neccessary. What do you think about the program that I wrote. Do you think that this can be helpful if there are more sentences and their code equivalent defined.--Hogü-456 (talk) 20:58, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

why not to use a ready "abstract language"?

many natural language generation projects are listed in Abstract_Wikipedia/Related_and_previous_work/Natural_language_generation. why you decided to develop a new coding standart, instead of using of a ready system? --QDinar (talk) 19:35, 4 October 2021 (UTC), edited 19:37, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Mention the original name Wikilambda

There is message box on top with a footnote, but nonetheless I want to suggest that a (near) native English user adds in the text passage about Wikifunctions some note about the original name Wikilambda for various reasons:

• This name appears several times in the timeline and background sections.
• The extension still bears the name Extension:WikiLambda.
• The new logo for Wikifunctions contains a lambda.

Because of the translation system I do not simply want to add text, but my own suggestion would be: “Originally it was named Wikilambda derived from the Lambda calculus. The name Extension:WikiLambda and the Wikifunctions logo containing a lambda still are reminiscences.” Is this OK? — Speravir – 23:17, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

@Speravir: Thank you for the suggestion! I've added it to Abstract Wikipedia#Background. Sorry for the delayed response. Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 21:33, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

@Quiddity (WMF): Thank you nonetheless. — Speravir – 00:30, 23 November 2021 (UTC)