Talk:1994 Fairchild Air Force Base B-52 crash

Tailwind issue

The text of this article contains the following quote: "The final factor was the 10-knot tailwind that pushed the steeply banked aircraft into the accelerated stall, resulting in the crash." I am not sure where this opinion originated, but it reflects a lack of knowledge in basic aerodynamics. Unless the tailwind manifested itself in the form of windshear, which was not stated in the article, there is no way a tailwind could directly affect the stall of the aircraft. I know from my time spent as a flight instructor that student pilots often get confused on this very point. They some times believe that turning downwind in the landing pattern can cause the aircraft's airspeed to change and bring on a stall. However, this is not the case. Barring windshear, the airspeed of an aircraft in flight is unaffected by the direction that the aircraft is pointing relative to the direction that the wind is blowing across the ground. Only the ground speed is affected. For example, if an aircraft indicates an airspeed of 200 knots and the wind in its area is blowing at 10 knots over the ground, the aircraft will have a ground speed of 210 knots when flying downwind and a ground speed of 190 knots when flying upwind. The important point is that no matter which direction it is flying, it will always have an airspeed of 200 knots. Stall speed is based on airspeed, not ground speed. So changing direction in flight, in and of itself, has no effect on stall speed and will not cause the aircraft to stall. That said, the 10 knot tailwind could have had an indirect effect on this crash. Turning downwind, the aircraft's ground speed would have increased and the pilot may have steepened his turn to avoid overflying a restricted area. The steepened turn could have easily brought on an accelerated stall, stalling at a higher speed than normal, but this is an indirect cause. A tailwind does not cause accelerated stalls!

63.74.232.26 03:07, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The exact text from the mishap report is:

“ Surface winds were out of the southwest and fairly constant in velocity. Any additional gust may have been sufficient to induce a stall since the MA (mishap aircraft) was near the stall speed. A rapid turn to downwind heading with high bank rates of turn will lead to airspeed bleed off if power is not added to overcome the induced drag and wind vector change. In this case, the 10 knot headwind turned into a 10 knot tailwind in 15 seconds. This rapid change is similar to a decreasing performance windshear. Winds were a factor in this mishap. ”

If you think the text should read differently, please suggest how it should and I'll add it. I appreciate your input to help the article be more accurate. Cla68 03:31, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the article is correct, assuming that the aircraft was flying along a particular trajectory with reference to the ground. If a pilot maneuvers the plane so to perform a 360° around a fixed point (e.g. the tower), then the wind is indeed a factor, because at some point along the 360°, that wind will become tailwind, requiring appropriate changes in power/airspeed/bank angle in order to keep both the trajectory and a safe margin from stall. Giuliopp 04:35, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Renaming?

I realize that this is an FA article, so I want to be careful how I proceed on this, but I would like to suggest that this article be renamed to conform to the general naming conventions being promoted by the Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation/Aviation accident task force. The new name would be 1994 Fairchild Air Force Base B-52 crash. This would put the article in line with other military aviation crash articles, as well. Thoughts? AKRadecki^Speaketh 17:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

• No objection from me and I'm the one who started the article. CLA 20:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
• No obejection from me either. However, since the article is under consideration for being "FA of the Day" in a few weeks, I'd suggest the re-name take place after that. I have already set up a Redirect of the new name to the current article. Check-Six 22:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. I'll keep an eye on the FA of the day...that'll be a big plus for the project! AKRadecki^Speaketh 01:01, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't most articles pertaining to aircraft accidents use the specific flight's call sign or flight number? Say, for example, TWA 800 crash is at TWA Flight 800, not "747 crash east of Long Island". So maybe this article should just be renamed "Czar 52"?-albrozdude 06:34, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Generally, flight numbers only apply to commercial flights, and then not always. It makes coming up with a uniform naming guideline a bit difficult, but over time this has become the perferred method both in Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation and Wikipedia:WikiProject Disaster management, and is outlined at the Aviation accident task force page...and input and suggestions are always welcomed there. AKRadecki^Speaketh 00:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the article states that Czar 52 was the pilot's callsign. --Cheezymadman

The article seems to state that because of the way the sentence in question is written. As a former 325th flier, I can state with certainty (and the article's referenced links back me up) that Czar 52 was the flight call sign, not Bud Holland's personal call sign (which I do not recall at the moment). Unless otherwise specified for a specific mission, all the 325th's flight call signs were in the form of "Czar XX" with the "XX" being the crew number; personal call signs were not used as flight call signs. Shawn D. 16:10, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

• Another reason to not call it "B-52 aircraft crash at Fairchild Air Force Base" is that it was not the only B-52 crash to occur at or near the base. Two separate incidents occurred in 1959. Shawn D. 16:10, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

If anyone wants to rename the article as discussed above, I don't have any objection. CLA 20:37, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. AKRadecki^Speaketh 00:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Eyewitness

I watched this aircraft crash and later participated in the clean-up. I was part of the 92ND maintenance squadron and was working in a warehouse (TMO?) near the entrance to the flightline. We were packing B-52 bomb pylons into crates to prepare for shipment to other units because the bomber unit was being decommisioned. We heard the B-52 flying by and had to step outside to watch it. It blasted down the flightline and then banked sharply and turned and came back. It was amazing. I lost sight of it as it moved behind a hangar and then I heard a dull thud. Soon my heart sank as I saw an immense plume of black smoke. Immediately the place went nuts, civilian and military car rushed out to the flightline. I'll never forget this day. BWSK former USAF—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.119.205.51 (talk • contribs).

Does this have something to do with the article? ShadowHalo 07:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I think relating an eyewitness account is definitely interesting enough for the talk page, even if the talk page is normally for comments about the article itself. A2Kafir 18:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

It may be interesting but as you say, not what the talk page is for and should be discouraged. Sure for an article like this it doesn't create a big problem. But for e.g. some big disaster (including terrorist attacks), sports events etc there can be lots and lots of eyewitnesses each with their own account which can quickly get out of hand Nil Einne 21:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I was also there. I was in the 92nd OMS. I remember the crash. I remember everyone thought the pilot was a hero because he "put it down" in the only open field available. And that stuff about the KC-135 landing was BS. They had been doing those low fly bys for over a week. Someone "up the chain of command" wanted both planes visable after passing low and turning opposite each other. It was practice for a Air Show that was coming up. By tighting up their formation, when the KC banked left it caused a "dead" spot of air. When the B-52 banked hard right, it encountered the dead air. Sitting on the flightline in my bread truck,(call sign red 5) with the other 10 or so guys, we all saw the engines flame out 1,2,3 and then it nosed in to miss the BX where all the families were filming the show. Why do you think there was so many people filming it? Because it was the last day to practice. It was the dress rehersel. If the Air Force needs to blame someone they need to look further up the chain of command. Also how was there time for the AC (aircraft commander)to recieve the "go around" radio back and ask to perform a dangerous manuver right around the tower, recieve permission, realize he was crashing and then attempt to eject? Thats not how it happened, or when for that matter. The dates wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Riolovin (talk • contribs) 05:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Chain of command chart

This sentence:

Holland was the chief of the 92nd Bomb Wing's Standardization and Evaluation branch, McGeehan was the commander of the 325th Bomb Squadron, Wolff was the vice commander of the 92nd Bomb Wing, and Huston was the 325th Bomb Squadron's operations officer.

Could confuse readers without a basic understanding of AF unit structure, so i created a basic flow chart to help with any misunderstanding. Anynobody 07:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

wow

wow, the low notability of the topic, surprises me that one would take the time to make it a featured article. --Leladax 11:39, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you really mean "low notability", or do you mean "uninteresting to you"? --Bongwarrior 12:55, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Since when did this page become a smear campaign about Holland? I understand talking about the investigation, but it seems to me that someone is doing everything possible to point fingers, including an itinerary attacking Holland.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.107.125.248 (talk • contribs).

• Look at the sources and they'll confirm that Holland's behavior and personality are at the core of this tragedy. The sources are very clear on this point. CLA 21:39, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
• If you have something to share regarding Holland, please share it here. I would love to see some differing opinions. Check-Six 17:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Wow. What a good and fascinating article! A tremendous read. Exciting, tragic and full of lessons. Very interesing. Very worthy of a Featured article and the excellence of the contributors. What a joy to read.WHEELER 17:07, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I concur. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 11:01, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Um sorry but opinions of Holland are not what this talk page are for. I suggest you take that to your personal talk page. The talk page is only for ways to improve the article Nil Einne 21:41, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Dates

In the article it states Bud Holland was killed when the craft crashed in 1993 but later under a picture it states he flew it over a low ridgeline in 1994. Why is this?

One seeming inconsistency

The second paragraph of the 'Other factors' section says "Pellerin, however, was unavailable for the flight on June 24 and Wolff was selected as the replacement aircrewmember. Due to the short notice of his assignment to the mission, Wolff did not participate in the pre-flight briefing and boarded the aircraft after the engines were started. Thus, Wolff was not aware of the planned mission profile and did not have an opportunity to raise any objections before take-off." But the second paragraph of the 'Crash' section says "The flight was also Wolff's "fini flight" — a common tradition in which a retiring USAF aircrew member is met shortly after landing on his or her final flight at the airfield by relatives, friends, and coworkers, and doused with water. Thus, Wolff's wife and many of his close friends were at the airfield to watch the flight and participate in the post-flight ceremony."

How did his friends and family have time to arrive at a special ceremony for his final flight when he didn't know it was to be his final flight until so soon before takeoff that he didn't even have time to review the flight plan?

Otherwise, indeed, an excellent article. 216.77.231.70 19:17, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

That's what the sources say. It appears that Wolff actually knew that he was flying as early as the day before or at least early the morning of, but for whatever reason didn't join the flight crew until after engine start. Nevertheless, his friends and co-workers had sufficient time to set-up a fini-flight ceremony for him including having an official photographer and videographer present to document the ceremony (this is one reason why there exists video and photographs of the crash). CLA 20:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

excessive precision

I just wanted to explain an edit I made, the edit summary is too short to really justify it. In this edit I changed some of the measurements in meters slightly. For instance, where it said "2,500 feet (762 m)" I changed it to "2,500 feet (760m)".

Now, 762 m is a more exact equivalent to 2,500 feet, so why did I change it to 760 m? The measurement "2,500 feet" is clearly approximate, to about two digits of precision. Whatever source that measurement came from, I doubt they actually meant "2,500 feet, and not a foot more or a foot less." More likely, it was a few feet different from that (and either they rounded it off, or their own source of information was inexact).

Saying "762 m", though, implies a value a lot more precise. One very close to 2,500 feet -- closer even than the original statement "2,500 feet" was supposed to imply. That's why I changed it to the less precise "760 m".

I didn't do this for values in other sections; those values seem to have matching precision in their metric and non-metric forms.

Kudos to Skybunny for adding these translations in the first place. -- Why Not A Duck 22:00, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Photo copyrights

Several photographs in this article are labeled "This photo was taken on a U.S. military reservation which makes the photo property of the U.S. government and thereby public domain, even if the photo was taken by a private citizen." This sounds, um, totally made-up to me. Is there any source for this theory?--Pharos 22:01, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps they are a tiny bit edited. This would make them copyrighted. --Ysangkok 22:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Me too. I'm not aware of any law making photos of U.S. miltary reservations public domain, only works of federal government employees conducted as part of their official duties. Dcoetzee 23:38, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Video

Can we see it? Brutannica 02:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Search YouTube, it's there. - PatrikR 02:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The Check-six site listed in the references section also has a video of the crash. I would have tried to put a copy of the video in the Commons and linked to the article but the technical issues were beyond my abilities. CLA 02:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Holland's Picture

Beautiful article! It's odd, though, that there is no picture of Holland's while those of some of the other crew members is. Still, beautiful article! 210.7.132.72 16:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure that photos exist of Holland, but I haven't been able to find any. Cla68 14:13, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Did Holland ever attempt, or intend to attempt, a roll?

I wonder, did Holland ever attempt to roll a B-52, like the famous roll of the 707 prototype? I had wondered when I first saw the video of this crash years ago whether he was attempting a roll (although it's clear when you think about it that it's just an overly steep banked turn, as described). A2Kafir 18:39, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Holland reportedly talked about trying it, but no evidence exists that he ever actually attempted a roll. I don't think he was trying to roll the aircraft when it crashed. CLA 20:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Ejection Seats?

Did this particular plane have ejection seats? I thought the later models were equipped with ejection seats in at least some of the crew positions. User:jacobst 22:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, yes - it did. The "about to crash" photo shows one of the cockpit egress hatch was opened in the milliseconds before impact. Check-Six 23:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The article mentions that McGeehan tried to eject just prior to the crash, but his seat hadn't yet cleared the aircraft when the impact occurred. CLA 23:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The aircraft does have ejection seats, the pilot and copilot eject up (note the panel just off the aircraft in the crash photo) and the WSO/Navigator eject down. Not a very happy idea at low altitude.

B-52s have six ejection seats: two forward-facing and upward-ejecting (Pilot and Co-Pilot), two rearward-facing and upward-ejecting (Electronic Warfare Officer and Gunner), and two forward-facing and downward-ejecting (Radar Navigator and Navigator). The four other crewmembers that can be carried must bail out manually. Shawn D. 12:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I assume there's no cockpit voice recorder on B-52s

...because, if there were, the transcript of this crash would probably be public by now. A2Kafir 21:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering the same thing myself. In researching for the article I observed indicators that some people believe that there was an altercation occurring in the cockpit between McGeehan and Holland just prior to the crash. If there was a CVR that, of course, would help to confirm or deny whether this was true. CLA 01:26, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

B-52s did not have CVRs at the time of the crash. By that wording, I am not implying that they have them now. Shawn D. 12:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Noted. The AF neither confirms nor denies whether there are CVR on their B-52 aircraft. Cla68 14:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

It could be argues that given the mission type of the B-52 and the high likelyhood of craft being downed during strategic bombing campaigns, that a CVR could be considered a mission security risk. That could explain why CVRs weren't (or aren't) considered on the B-52. Frankly, it'd suck if we lost one over wherever and the CVR survives and feeds the opponent with some idle cockpit banter about "We're going to be here again next week too"... --Mfree 14:34, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

image copyright issue

An image used in the article (Image:FairchildB52Crash.jpg) has been proposed for deletion on commons. See Commons:Deletion requests/Image:FairchildB52Crash.jpg --rogerd 14:48, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Accelerated Stall

The animation of the accelerated stall that has just been added is very nice, but unfortunately it's conceptually wrong. It seems to suggest that the stall speed varies depending on the sideslip angle of the aircraft, whereas the two things are unrelated.
A stall is the reduction of lift caused by the Angle of Attack of the wing exceeding the critical value for that wing, and the AoA depends on the aircraft pitch, not yaw.
Now, if you want to keep flying and you are already at the critical AoA, you'll have to maintain at least a certain speed (the stall speed), otherwise there's no way you can get enough lift to keep you airborne (not considering flaps). If the weight of the aircraft increases, so does the stall speed (since more lift is needed) and the same is true if the aircraft is manoeuvring (e.g. turning), since the effects of acceleration are substantially identical to a change in weight. A 2g coordinated turn is essentially the same as flying straight and level in a world where gravity is double the Earth's one; in both cases the stall speed will be ${\sqrt {2}}$ = 1.4 times the normal stall speed achievable while flying straight and level in this world. That's what accelerated stall refers to: a stall that occurs at a speed higher than normal due to the effect of the aircraft's acceleration.
The animation, misleading as it is, is bound to be removed. It would be good to see it re-drawn correctly, because the graphics is nice. I'm happy to give some hints on how it could possibly look like.
Giuliopp 22:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I drew it, and though I understand your concern it's actually describing one type of stall (there are actually different varieties, some depending on the placement of airfoils on the aircraft itself). Technically a stall is: In aerodynamics, a sudden reduction in the lift forces generated by an airfoil. When an aircraft is moving "forward" but pointing away from the direction of motion, the airflow over the wings is not conducive to the proper generation of lift. (It's essentially the same problem caused by excessive angles of attack, there is air flowing over/under the wing just not properly because of the angle of the wing relative to airflow. Anynobody 04:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

:Essentially it's taking the wing in this illustration and turning it 90 degrees.

File:Anynobodyillustration1.gif

*Note: The diagram was created using one frame to illustrate how the plane is moving, not its exact movements.*

Anynobody 04:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I think we should be careful not to mix-up stall with sideslip. A sideslip is not a type of stall. Stall is about Angle of Attack, and therefore pitch. Sideslip is about sideslip angle, and thus yaw. In the article about stall, yaw is hardly ever mentioned, and only as an aggravating factor for a stall (potentially resulting in a spin), not as a cause.

It is true that, in a sideslip, the air doesn't flow "properly" around the aircraft, but the main effect of that is the sharp increase in drag (due to the fuselage and fin going sideways), rather than a reduction of lift (which can occur, but not as dramatically as when during a stall). I've never heard of the term 'stall' referred to these sideslip-related effects (if you have, please quote the source), whereas I've always seen it associated with excessive pitch/AoA.

As for the picture above and the wing to be turned 90° to allegedly obtain "essentially the same problem", if I got what rotation you mean, I'm afraid that behind that assertion there is some confusion between Angle of Attack and sweepback angle of a wing. If you take the fully extended wing of an F-14 and pitch it upwards to an AoA of say 50° (i.e. well into the stall region), the resulting airflow and forces are completely different from the same wing at 0° AoA and swept back by 50° (which is a normal setting for a Tomcat).

The current animation shows purely a variation of sideslip angle, which bears some analogy with a wing being gradually swept back, but it has nothing to do with angle of attack nor stall. A meaningful animation could show for example something like this:

Assuming the turn is co-ordinated (that is purple arrow always at right angle to the wings) and the airspeed constant, then the diagram shows what happens when the turn radius decreases (= tightening the turn). More lift is needed to keep the trajectory, which can only be achieved by increasing the AoA (speed is constant and flaps are not considered here). At some point the turn will be so tight that the critical AoA is exceeded and the aircraft stalls. Note that it does so without dropping its speed, which implies that the stall speed V_s has increased while the turn radius was decreasing.

If you can take this sketch and turn it into a nice 3D animation of a B-52, adding the useful speed scale as in the present animation, I think that would definitely be a valuable contribution to the article.
Giuliopp 21:06, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry to have to disagree with you, given the amount of effort you put into explaining this. In order to avoid a situation where we talk past each other, can we agree that the basic definition as,

Stall

In aerodynamics, a stall is a sudden reduction in lift forces generated by an airfoil? Anynobody 22:45, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree on that definition, which is a very generic and introductory definition of stall. I also agree on the sentence that, in the WP article about stall, follows the quoted one: "This [reduction in lift] most usually occurs when the critical angle of attack for the airfoil is exceeded", which is what I have been trying to explain and what most likely happened at Fairchild AFB.
Giuliopp 13:18, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

All right then we're on the same page :) I don't mean to sound like a jerk but that was exactly where I was going next, only with an emphasis on the ...most usually occurs... part. The difference between an aircraft with a sideslip attitude and a stall is how much lift the wings are generating. As the aircraft's sideslip angle increases, less area of the wing's leading edges is meeting the air directly (so instead of airflow going above and below the wing from leading to trailing edges, it is instead going toward or away from the fuselage depending on which wing is going into the wind.) At some point the wings stop producing the amount of lift necessary, no matter how fast the plane is going, and it loses altitude until the pilot can correctly orient the wings toward (instead of perpendicular to) the wind or the plane crashes. Anynobody 05:14, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

What you say about the sideslip angle increasing etc. makes some sense but, excuse me if I'm blunt, what has it got to do with accelerated stall and the Fairchild crash? From the video you can tell that the fatal 360° turn was for most of it quite coordinated (= no sideslip), then it became too tight (= critical AoA exceeded → accelerated stall), and then the B-52 went down, uncontrollably, with a visible sideslip attitude. I won't go on any further on this thread because I would end up repeating the same things I've already explained.
That animation needs a fix. I suppose I'll have to do it (I can, in 2D, when I have a minute) then you can perfect it with the 3D model, deal? - Giuliopp out.
Giuliopp 00:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually we're there, if you watch the video closely you'll notice that the attitude of the plane is diverging from the direction of motion until it crashes. As it does this it's in an accelerated stall, where the stall speed increases as the divergence grows. Anynobody 02:31, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Questions about replacement

• What does the purple arrow represent?
• Why does the green arrow representing lift get bigger as the stall speed increases?
• Why does the caption mention angle of attack but the diagram does not?

As you no doubt are aware, stalls are complicated. The idea of my original diagram was to show that a stall can occur without a large increase in nose up attitude AND at speeds above the aircraft's normal stall speed. Whereas this one appears to be trying to explain every concept related to a stall. Of course weight and angle of attack need to be part of any complete definition, but we're not discussing stalls in general, we're discussing this crash. This crash had less to do with weight distribution than it did interrupted airflow (lift) due to maneuvering. If we were discussing the COD crash at around 00:20 of this video, weight would be a factor to emphasize. Anynobody 03:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

- First of all, "a stall can occur without a large increase in nose up attitude": I don't know where you got this from; to my knowledge, this interpretation of the phenomenon stall is unheard of, in aerospace engineering. It could be true in transonic and supersonic flight (due to shock wave interaction), but this is clearly not the case. In our case, stall is simply caused by excessive Angle of Attack and therefore is primarily, if not exclusively associated with important changes in nose-up attitude. All other factors (like sideslip angle) are secondary; they are not the cause of a stall, at most they can change its evolution (e.g. causing a the aircraft to enter a spin). If you are not convinced, ask any pilot or engineer.

- Second, the new animation: technically speaking, it represents Newton's first law written for a rotating reference frame, which can be expressed as: the sum of all forces,including the apparent ones, acting on a body at rest, must be zero (note that thrust and drag are assumed equal and opposite, and thus omitted from the diagram). The purple arrow, therefore, is the vector sum of weight and centrifugal force and must necessarily equal the only remaining force, i.e. lift. The tighter the turn, the stronger the centrifugal force, the greater the lift required to achieve equilibrium. That's why the lift increases as the turn radius decreases.

- Third, mention of Angle of Attack: the lift is proportional to air density, square of velocity, wing area and lift coefficient. All of the above quantities, except the last one, are assumed constant in our problem. The only variable is the lift coefficient and it varies when either the shape of the airfoil changes (e.g. by extending the flaps, again not considered here) or when the AoA varies. Therefore, in our problem, a change in AoA implies a change in lift, and vice-versa.

- Fourth, the weight distribution: you are right when you say that the Fairchild crash has nothing to do with weight distribution. In fact, in our problem, the distribution of weight is out of the equation, because we have implicitly assumed that the weight is correctly distributed across the aircraft. What we consider is the weight's global effect, i.e. a single force, equal to the aircraft total weight, applied to the airplane's center of gravity (CG). In other words, we reduce the entire aircraft to a so-called material point (its CG), and we study the motion of that point, when subject to forces equivalent to all those that are distributed all over the real aircraft. In this context, weight cannot be ignored if we want to apply Newton's first law meaningfully.

Now, I feel that this thread is becoming almost like a lecture, while this is supposed to be a discussion page (and I don't claim to be a lecturer either), therefore I think I'd better stop (not considering the time it's taking me to put all this together). If I can suggest you a interesting reading, then Introduction to Flight by John D. Anderson covers all the topics we discussed and a lot more, plus it's really a pleasure to read.

Giuliopp 22:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Notes

WSF and its relation to the flight path?

I would be interested to know the actual flight path of the plane, and its relation to the reported weapon storage facility (WSF). I haven't been able to find this information anywhere, but here is a satellite image from Mapquest [image deleted due to improper copyright] with my notes about locations of landmarks from a video of the crash (runway, control tower, water towers and buildings). Also indicated is my best guess at the location of the WSF (the fenced area south of the runway). Does anyone have a reference which would give some of this information? Boardhead (talk) 17:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know, there isn't a reliable source that shows the exact flight path of the aircraft. If you watch the video of the crash sequence, you can more or less guess the flight path from above, and then draw a line on this photo and place it in the article, as long as the copyright status is clear, which right now it isn't. Cla68 (talk) 01:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. My main question is the location of the WSF. I can draw the flight path fairly accurately on a map, but I don't know for sure where the WSF is. Also, maybe I'll switch to a Google Earth image because I understand their copyright better. Boardhead (talk) 14:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

File:B52 crash overview.jpg

File:B52 crash perspective.jpg

Here are two screenshots showing the flight path from above, and from the point of view of the camera that took this video. The images display a Google Earth KML file where I have calculated the approximate flight path based on landmarks and flying time at the airspeeds specified in the article. (To view the KML file, download and open with Google Earth) Boardhead (talk) 18:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC) -- Edit: Updated to current version of KML file and resolved image licensing issue. Boardhead (talk) 18:43, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Is your question really "Where is the WSF?" or "Where did the impact actually occur?" I won't answer the former, but the answer to the latter is: between the leftmost two buildings in your orange-shaded area and S. Arizona Avenue. EDIT -- I was editing while you were posting your flight path estimate. Your pin location doesn't continue the path far enough. Shawn D. (talk) 18:03, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments Shawn. Knowing exactly where the plane crashed would be good. I understand if you don't want to specify the location of the SWF, but if there was an airspace restriction in effect, this certainly could have had an impact on the flight path and be a contributing factor to the crash. I find it hard to reconcile the crash location you gave with the satellite images and the photos/videos from the event. Boardhead (talk) 18:15, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome. Using Google Maps, I estimate the coordinates to be N47.6105 W117.6505. Also note that the description of the crash says the aircraft made it about 3/4 of a turn, whereas your drawing shows about 2/3 of a turn. Sorry if that still seems hard to reconcile, but you don't know the exact filming locations. Shawn D. (talk) 18:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Shawn, thanks for these coordinates. I had thought you had indicated a location approximately 300m further along to the north east. The coordinates are outside the shaded yellow area, and consistent with my estimates. The "Crash" pin on my map is the estimated location for the first contact of the left wing with a set of hydro lines. The crash debris would of course be further along, with the tip of the right wing contacting almost 2 seconds later (approx 150 meters at 145 knots). The location you gave is 180 meters further along the path, which makes sense if you are talking about the debris field. Boardhead (talk) 18:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I have updated the KML file with Shawn's indicated crash location. Boardhead (talk) 20:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC) -- Update: Also added altitude estimates to flight path. Boardhead (talk) 03:13, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

In hindsight, my question about the WSF was not the appropriate thing to ask. Instead, I should have asked about the location of any airspace restrictions. Perhaps this is a question that can be answered. Boardhead (talk) 19:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The USAF survival school is also in that area somewhere. Was it located in the same compound as the suspected WSF or was it in an adjacent area? Cla68 (talk) 03:24, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

The school was, and is, in an adjacent area. You wouldn't do unrelated training in a WSF due to the danger to students and due to the need to keep the weapons segregated & secure (the whole point of WSFs). Shawn D. (talk) 13:43, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Another question, is that strip of white concrete above the suspected WSF a taxiway? Did the aircraft crash below, on, or above this taxiway as it is shown in the picture? Cla68 (talk) 00:19, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

That is not a taxiway, but a long-ago-decommissioned runway. Zoom out on a satellite view and you can see it and other decommissioned runways and taxiways. If you take note of the coordinates I provided above, you can see that the aircraft did not crash on, north of, or very near this decommissioned runway. Shawn D. (talk) 13:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, in the video you can see the aircraft slice through some power lines just before impacting the ground. If the power lines and support poles could be identified from the sattellite photo, that might provide better evidence of the aircraft's flight path. Cla68 (talk) 00:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I think I have identified the hydro lines from the satellite photo, and they are marked in the KML file I posted. They are very near what appears to be a hydro substation just to the south of the crash site. Boardhead (talk) 19:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah. I just found this reference, and now see the reason for Cla68's questions. The flight path indicated by this reference is not accurate (the turn-around is wrong by about 2km, and the crash location is off by about 800m). I was very careful in drawing my flight path, and it should be accurate to within 100 meters horizontally and 25 meters vertically with 90% confidence. Boardhead (talk) 16:15, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

If people think an image and/or description of the flight path would be useful, we should find a way to add this to the main article. Boardhead (talk) 18:43, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the images. I'm going to try to place one or both in the article. Cla68 (talk) 08:07, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Article and talk page errors

The mention of a flight plan that included bank angles of 60 degrees contradicts the statement in the section "Holland's Behavior." There the article says he had been cited for bank angles of more than 45 degrees. Those high bank angles exceeded the design limits of the airplane.

I didn't find a mention that crews had refused to fly with him. Did I miss that?

L K Tucker69.1.46.40 (talk) 22:48, 24 January 2008 (UTC)