Talk:2024 United States presidential election

Trump's current portrait

The image is over a year old and has him facing at an angle, which makes it look akward against Harris' straight looking potrait, I suggest we replace it with a more recent image 72.183.112.131 (talk) 02:06, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

On a slightly humorous note the yellow tie on Trump really throws me off. I support whatever picture for Trump so long as it includes a red tie for my sanity. BootsED (talk) 02:14, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree mainly because of the colors we associate with American political parties. Red is the color of the Republicans, Trump's party, while yellow is more often associated with the Libertarians. Also, we always picture Trump with a red tie. CoolGuy314 (talk) 23:46, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I think the yellow tie pic was an improvement. The current Trump pic is just awful (slanted pose, weird facial expression, etc.) Prcc27 (talk) 02:20, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the yellow tie image is an improvement. It has him looking directly at the camera to match Harris' pose, and is a more recent image. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 02:54, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

File:Donald Trump (53807946692) (cropped).jpg

File:Donald Trump (53807946692) (cropped).jpg is a much better option then either of the above, giving Trump is facing the camera, is also from June 2024, but is wearing a red tie like usual. Hopefully that suffices concerns! --MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 03:04, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

You did not allow anyone to give a second opinion before making the change. Trump's image should be discussed more thoroughly instead of you alone changing the picture because you think it looks better. For example had you put it up for discussion I would be rather opposed to the image you changed it to as his facial expression is rather awkward, as well as him looking quite sweaty in the photo. TheFellaVB (talk) 03:36, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Agree on the first part, but I think this photo is much better than the other one. I support the change. Dingers5Days (talk) 04:30, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I really think we should look at more options beyond the one MarioProtIV changed it too, there are certainly many more pictures of Trump that are public domain and would suit the article better. TheFellaVB (talk) 09:38, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I support this option, though I can understand if someone doesn't like the uneven shoulders, the facial expression or the lighting. Have read a bunch of similar talks and seen these points considered too. Nursultan Malik^(talk) 08:15, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

File:Donald Trump (53787934031) (double cropped).jpg (Option A)

He's not looking directly at the camera in that image, he's looking off to the left. File:Donald Trump (53787934031) (double cropped).jpg is the most recent image of him looking straight ahead (or as close to it as we can get) with squared shoulders. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 14:33, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I like that image on principle, but seeing Trump with a yellow tie really feels weird. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 15:30, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Would it be appropariate to digitally change the colour of the tie to be red? This feels like something that'd solve this issue once and for all. Nursultan Malik^(talk) 09:52, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

File:Donald Trump June 2024.jpg (Option B)

His facial expression is quite odd, can't tell if he's smirking or bemused. I prefer this image from the same day with a neutral expression, option B. GhulamIslam (talk) 16:40, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

I support this option. File:Donald Trump (53807946692) (cropped).jpg is similar to the one on the page but he's facing forward, so it makes for a good replacement. Di (they-them) (talk) 03:26, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Trump's portrait should just be his from 2017 as president. It's not THAT old, and it's quite official, unlike the other ones that have been used Trajan1 (talk) 04:59, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

7 years is quite old, actually. Prcc27 (talk) 05:30, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Contrariwise, I don't think a 7-year-old is even old enough to run for President in the first place. jp×g🗯️ 18:20, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

There is consensus to use a more recent image. Main reason being what Prcc27 said. GhulamIslam (talk) 15:00, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

7 years is old. Anyone that's 11 years old in 2017 can legally copulate by now. —SquidHomme ^(talk) 21:52, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Agree and I am supporting the upmost shown image in the discussion because it is one of the more recent ones and it have a relatively neutral expression Punker85 (talk) 21:40, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

This is a much better image due to his even more neutral facial expression (when compared to any of his previously proposed images) and his eyes are pointed more to the center. —SquidHomme ^(talk) 22:11, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Personally, this is why I was against the argument of not using his official portrait because it was going to open a can of worms about updating the pic every year/few months whereas his official portrait would've remained. Yet, here we are. If I had to support a picture, I'd go for option A as it has a better angle and expression of Trump. He's facing more forward than the other option. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 23:34, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Can someone please change the portrait, it’s so bad lol Geffery2210 (talk) 02:28, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Should change it to option A imo Geffery2210 (talk) 02:30, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I think the current photo is way better than the three images propsoed here. Anyway I still believe that the official picture is the best option. -- Nick.mon (talk) 16:46, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Official Portrait

Why can’t we just use his official portrait? Geffery2210 (talk) 17:42, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I know there's a consensus not to use his portrait because it's outdated, but having his official portrait would avoid this constant discussion about replacing the image every month (or so). TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 19:20, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Everyone should agree to using his official portrait now and change it now. Geffery2210 (talk) 19:35, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, I’m close to saying just use the portrait. The current photo is terrible. I would prefer a different newer photo. Prcc27 (talk) 06:14, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree with using the official portrait. Biden's official portrait from 2013 was used on the 2020 U.S. presidential election page while the election was ongoing, despite the portrait being 7 years old. The same 7-year-old portrait of Biden was also used by news media covering the election.

In turn, news media are already using Trump's 7-year-old portrait for this election, as did the June presidential debate on CNN.

As such, this wiki article should use Trump's presidential portrait, despite it being 7 years old. Vrrajkum (talk) 13:46, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

To add on to this: just because the official portrait is 7 years old doesn't mean there's anything wrong with or misrepresentative about the photo. Trump still looks very similar to how he looked in 2017.

If it's not broken, don't fix it. Vrrajkum (talk) 14:27, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree let’s change it! Geffery2210 (talk) 15:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, Other Candidates in the Infobox have their pictures from different years, like Wallace's for the 1968 Election, Carter's For The Election. And Perot's for the 1992 & 1996 Election, all of them use Pictures from Different years other than election year, why can't Trump? InterDoesWiki (talk) 15:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Carters for the 1976 Election.

InterDoesWiki (talk) 15:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

All of those were proper portraits not a picture snapped of them while they were at a event so.. Geffery2210 (talk) 17:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

User:InterDoesWiki is agreeing that there's nothing wrong with using Trump's 2017 portrait for the 2024 election article.

All recent commenters (since the beginning of August) have at least expressed openness to using the official portrait; I'm going to make the change. Vrrajkum (talk) 17:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

The official portrait is over seven years old, at this point. I don't think it should be used. David O. Johnson (talk) 17:47, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a better alternative? Vrrajkum (talk) 17:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

There was a long-running RFC about it that resulted in no consensus.

There was a long-running RFC about it that resulted in no consensus.

The archived Talk page is linked here: [1]

Maybe we should re-launch the RFC again. David O. Johnson (talk) 18:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

This discussion should be closed, please revert back to the 2017 portrait, there is no reason the 2023 photo should be used. Geffery2210 (talk) 18:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Starting a new RFC. Vrrajkum (talk) 18:58, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

There are no alternatives, this shouldn’t even be an argument anymore. Geffery2210 (talk) 17:55, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

References

RFKJR residency

We currently list RFKJR.’s residency as “California”, even though he claims “New York” as his place of residency. How should we handle this? [2][3] Prcc27 (talk) 16:54, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Can we just omit it? Listing either California or New York without elaboration could be an issue. Is there really much value in listing a candidates declared home state? I'm aware that his running mate is also from California, but the "concern" about them winning the state is a little silly. GreatCaesarsGhost 19:54, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

It might look a little weird omitting his homestate while leaving everyone else’s homestate, especially in infoboxes. Prcc27 (talk) 22:30, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Trump's and Harris' aren't showing in the infoboxes in the candidate section. But if that doesn't work for everyone, I would favor listing New York with a footnote indicating the dispute. GreatCaesarsGhost 10:50, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

For some reason, the candidate boxes for third party candidates and Vance do mention the home states. As for the infobox.. this is what it looks like if we leave that field blank. But listing NY with a footnote could work. Prcc27 (talk) 19:11, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done I added New York as RFKJR.’s home state, with a footnote. Prcc27 (talk) 19:28, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

It looks like a court rejected Kennedy’s New York residency claim. Should we re-add California as his residency..? [4] Prcc27 (talk) 00:13, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

NBC News: Kennedy resides in California with his wife, actor Cheryl Hines, but in testimony, he said the couple had always intended to move back to New York. This and the AP should be enough to re-add California. --Super Goku V (talk) 00:26, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

North Carolina swing state?

Shouldn’t we list North Carolina as a swing state? Prcc27 (talk) 22:30, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

No. The six states listed all went for Biden last time despite having a partisan lean towards Trump (relative to the nation). They are rated as "Toss-up" by at least half of the listed forecasters. North Carolina may be won by Harris, but only in a mini-landslide scenario. It is unlikely to be near the tipping point for victory. GreatCaesarsGhost 00:27, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Most of those forecast ratings are before Biden dropped, so not really relevant. NC seems to be in play now that Harris is the nominee; she is polling within the margin of error. What do the sources say, though? Being the tipping point ≠ swing state. Past performance in previous elections do not always have an effect on the next election. Prcc27 (talk) 06:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Well sure, if you disregard all the evidence, your case gets a lot stronger! :) The forecasts are sources. They have said NC is not a key swing state; until they say something different, who are we do disagree? ~ Also, where do you want it added? We do already note NC as a "battleground state" in the Electoral Map section. The lede indicates the six as "key" swing states. The word key implies we do not intend to list every state that could swing. GreatCaesarsGhost 15:59, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Many of the forecasts are literally “frozen”/“suspended” (in the case of 538 and Decision Desk HQ) or have Biden’s name instead of Harris’s. So no, those sources are not useable. But I guess I am okay with waiting to see what happens when the forecasts are activated again. What should be the threshold for adding NC to the lead? Georgia had half of the forecasts lean R half tossup. Prcc27 (talk) 16:32, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

As you suggest, I would go with the sources. I did a search for key swing states, and there isn't a lot of commentary after the Harris switch period. GreatCaesarsGhost 19:00, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Support as North Carolina voted for Trump by less than 1.5% in 2020, has a Democratic governor, and is being seriously contested (i.e. both campaigns spending significant time & resources there). JohnAdams1800 (talk) 16:38, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

You should note that North Carolina’s state assembly is veto-majority republican, and has only had three GOP governors in the last 100 years. So I oppose. Qutlooker (talk) 18:14, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Support, I've found a few reliable sources that use the term "swing state" to describe NC.

• The 2024 Swing States: Why North Carolina Could Sway the Presidential Election, (U.S. News & World Report)
• Many voters in swing-state North Carolina are disengaged. Party activists hope to fire them up, (Associated Press)

Di (they-them) (talk) 03:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support Most sources covering the election have referred to NC as a swing state. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 05:23, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Let's start another argument

An edit war may have begun on whether or not Kennedy meets the the criteria for infobox inclusion set here. @Rhian2040: was first to add him to the infobox, while @Unknown-Tree: reverted their edits, stating "RFK has *not* been above 5% consistently, look at the graph and the aggregators in the Harris-Trump-Kennedy section". The edit was then reverted by @David O. Johnson:, who said "RFK is right around 5%, per the RFC, "generally polls at 5% or above", which is not an absolute". What does everyone think? Does RFK clearly poll generally at 5% or above, or is it a discussion to be had? Nojus R (talk) 23:50, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I think RFK polls close enough to meet the threshold, hitting 5% more often than not. David O. Johnson (talk) 23:52, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

He generally polls at about 5%, and in some polling reaches 10, 15, or 20% Lukt64 (talk) 00:08, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

There has not been a single poll since Biden's withdrawal that shows him at or above 11%, so those later two numbers are just wrong and the 10% number is barely correct. In the same time period, there have been 6 polls that show him below 5%. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 01:34, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

RFK almost always polls >5%, so yes he meets the criterion. RickStrate2029 (talk) 00:08, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Aggregators do not show that he's consistently polling above 5%, as can be seen at Nationwide opinion polling for the 2024 United States presidential election#Kamala Harris vs. Donald Trump vs. Robert F. Kennedy Jr.. You can see this at his polling is also falling, as can be seen in the graph (which goes below 5%!). As I said in my edit summary, I do not believe he should be included in the infobox. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 01:32, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree: He is not consistently polling above 5% and actually his polling numbers are consistently going down ever since Kamala has became the Democratic Party's nominee. No need for him to be in the infobox at all. Unfriendnow (talk) 01:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The original RfC said 5% in major polling aggregators, and explicitly listed 538 and RCP. He has more than 5 percent in those aggregators, as of right now.[5][6] Personisinsterest (talk) 02:14, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

In the same time period, there have been 6 polls that show him below 5% as @Unknown-Tree has stated. His numbers have not been consistently polling above 5% is the main point. Unfriendnow (talk) 02:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

That is irrelevant. The RfC agreed on this page explicitly said that 5% in polling aggregators was the threshold. The two explicitly named organizations have him above 5%. Personisinsterest (talk) 02:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

No it isn't irrelevant. If polling aggregators tomorrow or the following week show him below 3% are we then going to have to take him out of the Infobox? are we going to have to check the polling aggregators every hour??? he simply has not been consistently polling above 5%. Unfriendnow (talk) 02:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Since when was "consistently" part of the RfC result? It said generally. The two explicitly mentioned aggregators show him above 5%. That is generally. And yes, if he goes under 5 percent in even one of those aggregators mentioned, because he is on thin ice with only 538 and RCP, that is no longer general and he will be removed from the infobox. Personisinsterest (talk) 02:40, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Decision Desk HQ/The Hill as of August 8th has him at 3.8%. Silver Bulletin as of August 8th has him at barely 4.5%. Again 6 other polls that show him below 5%.

How is all in general??? adding him now when he hasn't been consistency above 5% is ridiculous, it would make sense to add him if he was above that number in general as you claim but he isn't you even admit he is on thin ice even with other factors included. There is no need for him to be in the infobox when he simply isn't consistent. Unfriendnow (talk) 02:47, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Silver Bulletin is not a reliable source. Personisinsterest (talk) 02:50, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Er, at least not a confirmed one. Personisinsterest (talk) 02:51, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

However the Wikipedia for Nationwide opinion polling for the 2024 United States presidential election#Kamala Harris vs. Donald Trump vs. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is currently using it so...anyways as @Unknown-Tree has stated his polling is also falling, we can see it in the graph which goes even below 5% so that has to be taken in account. Adding him to the infobox because only two polls say he is barely above 5% is ridiculous. Unfriendnow (talk) 03:08, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I see your point about the polling aggregators though. But first, Nate Silver is in a grey area where we know he's reliable but haven't really established his website is. However, Decision Desk HQ showing him below the threshold is not consistently showing 5%.

But the RfC didn't ask for that. It said generally polls over 5%. This is generally, and especially considering 538 and RCP were explicitly mentioned, I think we can put him in. Personisinsterest (talk) 02:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

• There's a degree to which we need to apply a little practical realism here. It is widely known and widely reported that Kennedy is the third-party candidate of this election cycle. Historians are not going to lend any consideration to the presence of Green Party and Libertarian Party candidates in the 2024 election, but they will give some to Kennedy. I would include Kennedy at this point. BD2412 T 02:01, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

  Kennedy's news coverage has been falling a lot recently. Little has happened with him recently besides the Central Park statement; everything else has effectively been cast to the side. Putting him in the infobox lends too much credence to a campaign which is near-certain to not get over 5% of the result (which he's barely getting in only some polls, many polls have had him below the threshold); he's falling in the polls, and the decline shows no real sign of stopping. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 03:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The prior RFC established that if he is stated to be polling above 5% in a polling aggregator and has access to 270 or more electoral college votes, he is to be included. He has now clearly met both prongs, and is thus required to be included in the infobox according to the inclusion criteria established in the RFC results.XavierGreen (talk) 02:03, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

See the RFC results establishing the inclusion criteria [7]. The inclusion critera is not "generally polls above 5%" as some have stated above. It is "generally polls at 5% or above in major polling aggregators". Kennedy is above 5% in all but 1 polling aggregator, he thus clearly meets the threshold for inclusion.XavierGreen (talk) 02:07, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Nojus R Include him. Consensus shows he consistently meets the guidelines. Jayson (talk) 02:24, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree with this, it makes no sense to not include him when we've included John Anderson, Eugene Debbs, & Ross Perot's 1996 bid all of which did received around 6%, similar to where RFK is at now. TheFellaVB (talk) 03:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

That is how many votes they received, not how they polled. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

And? If polling consistently shows RFK at that level of support then we should be working with the assumption that that is how many votes he will receive. If the polling changes or he doesn't achieve that level of support in the actual election then he can be removed but otherwise it's clear as to what we should do here. TheFellaVB (talk) 03:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Here we go again. I side with exclusion. GoodDay (talk) 03:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I still do too. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:19, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The five percent rule is OR. Survey the reliable sources. Do they treat this as a two-way or three-way contest? The answer is obvious. — JFHutson (talk) 03:32, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Jfhutson What I say on the matter is that his appeal to non voters who likely won't answer polling will probably increase what he gets on election day. It's probably not a good idea to use assumptions like that, but even still, he USUALLY polls above 5% and its likely to once again increase with the endorsement by Joe Rogan Jayson (talk) 03:49, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

What you say on the matter is WP:OR. When reliable sources write about the topic of this page, do they treat it as a contest between two people or three? — JFHutson (talk) 03:56, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Jfhutson Sorry Jayson (talk) 04:03, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Let’s include him for now, and once he falls below 5% in the 538 and RCP aggregates, we should remove him, and not re-add him until he consistently is at 5%+ again. We should not make an exception if he is polling at 4.9%; especially since he still lacks ballot access in many states. We are being too generous as it is. Prcc27 (talk) 04:32, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I disagree he shouldn’t be added in at all. We are already being way too generous. Unfriendnow (talk) 05:12, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

If we exclude him now, people will say that the goalposts were moved. I think we should stick to 5%+ average, 270+ EVs ballot access. My only concern is, are all the states he allegedly has ballot access in verifiable? Prcc27 (talk) 05:21, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The states where he has ballot access are explained here: Third-party and independent candidates for the 2024 United States presidential election#Candidates with majority ballot access. Some of the refs are media sources, while others are state election offices. David O. Johnson (talk) 05:55, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Not sure if we can use state election offices as a source; we are supposed to use secondary sources. I do not think Pennsylvania should count in the tally. I also have WP:SYNTH concerns, but less so for the sake of him qualifying for the infobox. Prcc27 (talk) 06:04, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Ballot access news clearly states he is on the ballot in texas. See here Texas Secretary of State Says Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., Petition is Valid | (ballot-access.org) XavierGreen (talk) 14:46, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Texas Secretary of State Says Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., Petition is Valid | (ballot-access.org) XavierGreen (talk) 14:47, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

NYT lists Alaska, California, Delaware, Hawaii, Indiana, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nebraska, New Jersey, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Utah, and Vermont for a total of 175.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. 2024 presidential campaign also lists Colorado, Florida, Iowa, Louisiana, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, and Texas. Of those, Florida has a note that says "While Kennedy Jr. has not been formally nominated, he is the presumptive nominee of the ballot-qualified Reform Party." If that is an issue then Kennedy is only at 263 by our count.

Moving that aside, the Secretary of States in Colorado and Texas have said he has qualified for the ballot. Iowa's source is somewhat weak as it is a local TV station stating that his campaign says it is on the ballot with an image as proof from the Iowa Secretary of State's Office. Louisiana's source is a voter portal provided by their Secretary of State, which somehow counts as a source. (He is listed under the We The People party.) The Albuquerque Journal says that Kennedy has qualified as a candidate in New Mexico. Finally, the Pennsylvania Department of State lists Kennedy as "Candidate-Status: Approved" on their website, which apparently counts. --Super Goku V (talk) 07:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The consensus here was that presumptive nominations count, as Kamala and Trump were included on the page when they were only presumptive nominees.XavierGreen (talk) 14:45, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

As said, *if* that is an issue. It doesn't help that the other sources are not the best for the Florida claim: One is NBC News, which should be good, except the only part of that article that claims he is on the ballot in Florida is a map that says "Source: State election officials; Kennedy campaign" while the other is some WordPress website called ballot-access.org that you mentioned above. (Note that despite both of these, NYT doesn't currently count Florida as a state where Kennedy has ballot access.) --Super Goku V (talk) 07:14, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Your opinion is not grounded in norms. Personisinsterest (talk) 15:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

FYI only one needs to drop for a majority of the aggregators to be below 5%, as DDHQ already has him below it. We need not wait for both. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 06:03, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Which is why adding him to the info box is so ridiculous. Unfriendnow (talk) 06:25, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I don’t think it is a big deal to have him up there for a few days while he still barely meets the criteria. My guess is he will probably fizzle out after the Democratic National Convention, or even sooner. Once that happens, we will probably get to remove him from the infobox for good. Until then, let’s just stick to the plan. Prcc27 (talk) 06:32, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The opposite is actually more likely, Kamala's boost in the polling will fizzle after the convention. Most candidates historically get a boost around the time of their party conventions that dissipates thereafter.XavierGreen (talk) 14:43, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Third party candidates usually don’t get a late boost, and I think Trump has more to gain from Harris fizzling out. But I’ll leave it at that since this is not a forum. Prcc27 (talk) 20:39, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Lead is not neutral

This lead is not neutral. I'm certainly no fan of Trump, but I think that the lead could be more balanced.

The lead mentions a lot about his authoritarian, dehumanizing, and false statements he's made. But this does not happen in Harris' paragraph. It simply states facts about her campaign. And I think it might be irrelevant, given no other political things are said in the lead. I think if you want to mention this, you should just expand the section about policy. Personisinsterest (talk) 02:57, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The lead mentions a lot about his authoritarian, dehumanizing, and false statements he's made. But this does not happen in Harris' paragraph. It simply states facts about her campaign. – that seems a factual and accurate summary of how the campaign has gone so far, though.  Nixinova   T   C   08:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I reinstated it for now, @Nixinova:. I think it should be kept. But perhaps a shorten version could do? KlayCax (talk) 10:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Way shorter. Right now it stands at "Donald Trump's 2024 campaign has been criticized by legal experts, historians, and political scientists for invoking violent rhetoric and authoritarian statements. During the campaign, Trump has repeatedly dehumanized those who he sees as his political enemies, while also repeating false claims that the 2020 election was rigged and stolen from him, part of a broader election denial movement that has gained popularity among members of the far-right in the United States." Too long. Just maybe say "Trump's campaign has been criticized for its perceived violent and dehumanizing statements against political opponents, and has been accused of authoritarian rhetoric." We don't need to mention 2020, the media really doesn't do that. And we should find something the media criticizes her for too, maybe her Gaza policy. Personisinsterest (talk) 13:31, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I mean that it doesn't talk about her shortcomings. All of this is accurate, but I think it's undue. Sure, the things he says are notable, but they aren't mentioned enough in the media consistently to get multiple sentences in his paragraph. We should just have a big section about the policy debates going on, and mention it there. Personisinsterest (talk) 13:19, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree that the lead is not neutral and this blurb should be removed. It's also true e.g. that Biden-Harris admin oversaw historically high inflation, but that campaign talking point is not appropriate for the lead. TocMan (talk) 17:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I re-added a trimmed version. It seems WP:DUE to mention his authoritarian tone and his legal troubles. Prcc27 (talk) 08:06, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

This is good, thank you. Personisinsterest (talk) 07:36, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

RFC on inclusion of RFK Jr into the infobox

Now, I would like to specify some things.Firstly, there is ongoing debate on whether he qualifies for the info box based on previous Rfcs, which mainly states from my observation that he needs to: A. Poll consistently above 5% B. Be eligible for 270+ electoral votes Today he qualified for B with Texas certifying him for the ballot, but he has dropped in some polls to just below 5%. Knowing these things, can we say that he qualifies or not? Do you think: ✅Aye: he does qualify for the infobox ❌Nay: He does not. Leave your comments for why so and elaborate on it. The specifics for what the info box will look like will be seperate. Jayson (talk) 04:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Comment The RFC does not say "Poll consistently above 5%"; it specifically mentions "generally." The agreed upon criteria were: "Criterion #1a: A candidate who generally polls at 5% or above in major polling aggregators. (RealClearPolitics, FiveThirtyEight, et al.)" and "Criterion #6: Having ballot access in states that comprise 270 electoral votes and meets criteria #1a, #1b, or #1c." See here for the RFC:[8] David O. Johnson (talk) 04:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@David O. Johnson Ah, thx. Also leave your opinion on inclusion of him in the infobox Jayson (talk) 04:41, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Jayson Aye

To comment on the polling, there are a lot of issues going on with the polling at the moment and we shouldn't take them for granted. Many of the polls, which are also being listed in the aggregators, that include Kennedy and third party candidates didn't include them as separate options for the respondents but rather as something to put in under "Other". Some polls will make this easy by labeling it as (VOL) for voluntary. YouGov doesn't do this to point out but they do have the option "Other" and list only Trump and Harris. Compared to appearing on the ballot as an option, this is equivalent to a Write-in which unless you are Joe Biden in New Hampshire earlier this year, you will barely get many votes.

TLDR, many polls will portray their results like they gave Kennedy, West, etc equal chance to Trump and Harris but when in reality, made people have to write them in.

For accuracy's sake, we should only include polls that we know provide the other candidates their own option to the respondents. Buildershed (talk) 07:26, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

https://imgur.com/a/evidence-Tl3Mr6u to back my claims up Buildershed (talk) 07:29, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

You seem to misunderstand how aggregates work, and I am not going to explain it again. Prcc27 (talk) 07:47, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Prcc27 I have read what you said already. Buildershed (talk) 09:12, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion, this just furthers the fact that he's not considered as major of a candidate as Harris or Trump, and thus is evidence against including him in the infobox. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 07:36, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Unknown-Tree 2%-4% as a write-in? Buildershed (talk) 09:13, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

My point was that he's not being considered a major candidate. He's not considered on the same level as Harris or Trump, but rather on the same level as West, Stein, and others, which aren't being included in the infobox. I also don't think he'd be much higher if he was in the polls. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 19:16, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

• It's a nay from me. A fairly low-polling candidate/undue weight. His polls don't look much different from the other third party candidates running now. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 08:33, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

  That is simply not true, West, Stein and Oliver are not getting polls in the 5% range.XavierGreen (talk) XavierGreen (talk) 17:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Massive Aye from me. Sure, Kennedy has dropped in the polls but he has now reached 270+ EV, so I say it's time. No excuses. Lostfan333 (talk) 09:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Aye -Once he is Consistently polling lower than 5%, then it's a done deal. InterDoesWiki (talk) 19:07, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

He already is. Of the last 5 polls in a five-way matchup, 3 of them are below 5% and 1 of them is exactly at 5%. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 19:13, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Your vote doesn't make sense. You say AYE to include but only if his polling is below 5%? GreatCaesarsGhost 20:04, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure he actually has the 270. Do we have a source? I see some people pointing to the RFK WP page, but several of the references there are iffy. GreatCaesarsGhost 20:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

❌Nay The average of the five aggregators is under 5%. 2 of 5 are below, and the numbers are falling. While "generally above 5%" is open to interpretation, I would also ask everyone to read the prior discussion. Most of the people supporting 5% were conflating polling with results, and made no comment recognizing that partial ballot access would reduce this number. In any case, there is a generalized consensus to add him if appears to be a serious factor, expressed by some combination of ballot access, polling, and news coverage. While ballot access is expanded, the polling has fallen by more than half and the news coverage is exclusively laughing at him. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:52, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, the access count is now 260, as IA, PA and LA do not have independent confirmation and we cannot ascertain with certainty what the primary sources say. If he is still at 5% in 3 out of 5 when he gets to 270, I would support interpreting that as meeting the qualification of the prior RfC's consensus. GreatCaesarsGhost 23:33, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I am open to waiting for better sources for IA, PA, and LA. But even then, it looks like some people just don’t want to add RFKJR no matter what. Prcc27 (talk) 01:33, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I imagine you could ask an uninvolved admin if it came to that. I would suggest that the prior RfC still stands as consensus, and this one does not overrule it as it only asks "should we add him at this moment?" and much of the resistance is questioning whether he actually meets the standard of the prior RfC, rather than seeking to subvert it. GreatCaesarsGhost 22:55, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Comment. The previous RfC's outcome suggested general polling above 5% in major polling aggregators (mentioned 538, RCP) and 270 EV ballot access. He has reached this threshold with 538 and RCP, but not in The Hill. He generally meets that criteria. Personisinsterest (talk) 13:22, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

If the new threshold though is consistently polls above 5%, then Nay. Personisinsterest (talk) 13:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

There is no "new" threshold. The RFC result was about polling aggregators, not polls themselves.XavierGreen (talk) 17:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Most of the recent polls show that RFK under 5% in state polls. There have not been a lot of polls lately that show him at all. the ones that do include him usually have him hovering above 5%. But it also brings up the point of when polls expire. Because he has polled as high as 21% albeit it was likely an outlier and against Biden. He has met the criteria that was outlined. It makes little sense to change it now. I say Yay to include him. 2601:243:2401:15A0:F497:92DF:61D6:E25D (talk) 14:14, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely. RFK should be included on the infobox because the precedent is that third-party candidates get on the infobox. We see this with elections just about every country aside from the USA, with candidates much less likely to win their elections than RFK Jr. All previous doubts as to if RFK will be able to get 270 EVs have been silenced and his polling generally shows him above 5%. The idea that he shouldn't be included flies in the face of all precedent outside of the USA, and the idea that he shouldn't be included because he is unlikely to win or that some think he is unlikely to cross 5% is pure WP:CRYSTALBALL. It is not up to Wikipedia to judge candidates' chances of winning. RFK is a national candidate with the best polling for a third-party candidate since Ross Perot, therefore it is clear that he should be included. Frankly, I fail to even see the need for discussion on this issue. Collorizador (talk) 16:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

All previous doubts as to if RFK will be able to get 270 EVs have been silenced Have you read any posts on this page? – Muboshgu (talk) 17:06, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

RFK is certified for 293 electoral votes, with 209 awaiting certifiaction.[9] Collorizador (talk) 17:13, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

A Wikipedia-made image is not a reliable source. Looking at a few states, I see discrepancies. Like a PA legal challenge for one. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTALBALL. We do not know what the legal challenge will bring. Biden was included in the Ohio infobox despite potential legal trouble as well. Collorizador (talk) 17:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, we don't know what the challenge(s) will bring. Therefore we should be defaulting to exclusion, not inclusion, until it's sorted out. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:30, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Why was Biden kept in the Ohio infobox then despite the potential legal trouble there, then? Collorizador (talk) 17:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

They had a workaround. RFK ballot challenges are different from the Ohio situation. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:41, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

AYE, Kennedy has enough electoral votes and generally polls above five percent. I see a lot of people commenting here, I respect their opinions, but we must also respect the rules. Fact is, most Americans know about Kennedy and a decent chunk support him. He will impact the election moreso than most other third-parry candidates and therefore should be included. 2600:6C83:1E00:24:773C:C1A1:3DEC:1D20 (talk) 18:09, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Nay. He just doesn't have the polling anymore, and no RS has actually reported that he has actually achieved 270; to say he has is WP:SYNTH. In my view, he doesn't meet either criteria, let alone both. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 18:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

In addition, FiveThirtyEight has him at 5.1% and he's been falling. If they go below 5%, a majority of aggregators will be below 5%, in which case there's really no defense to putting him in; if we add him now, it's likely we'd have to remove him in a couple of days. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 19:25, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

By stating he is at 5.1%, you are admitting that he has met the critera to be included in the last RFC and your edits removing him from the infobox are therefore disruptive by your own admission.XavierGreen (talk) 17:36, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Please modulate yourself and AGF. The editor did not say "he is at 5.1%" he said "FiveThirtyEight has him at 5.1%" which does not meet the criteria of the RfC. GreatCaesarsGhost 15:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Why is this discussion labeled an RFC? It hasn't been tagged as such. GoodDay (talk) 13:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@GoodDay Sorry, its my first. Jayson (talk) 15:34, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

There is already an ongoing discussion regarding this above as well. He clearly meets the inclusion criteria, as he has at least 270 ballot access and is above 5% in a majority of polling aggregators as stated on the page itself.XavierGreen (talk) 14:48, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

He does not have "access" to 270 EV. The Hill says 174 confirmed. Why do we have to continue to beat this dead horse? – Muboshgu (talk) 14:55, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Muboshgu I can already spot a few inaccuracies. For one, the Texas AG certified him for the ballot. Let me go look for some more. Jayson (talk) 15:36, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Jayson, the 174 confirmed includes TX. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Muboshgu Oof my bad XD Jayson (talk) 16:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The Hill's chart is not a reliable source. For example, it says that NJ is not "confirmed", however the NJ Secretary of State (who has the final say on ballot access in NJ) has stated that RFK, Jr. is on the ballot in New Jersey. See here [10].XavierGreen (talk) 16:03, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@XavierGreen Also California. The state Independent American Party, which has ballot access last I checked, nominated Kennedy for the ballot. Jayson (talk) 16:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:THEHILL is reliable. Where's your source for "he has at least 270 ballot access" XavierGreen? – Muboshgu (talk) 16:06, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The Hill's chart is not reliable. Another example, as another user stated is California where the AIP has nominated RFK, Jr. The AIP has ballot access in California. The Hill seems to be excluding states where RFK, Jr. is on the ballot via nomination by pre-existing third parties. See here [11]. NYT has him "confirmed" in California see here [12].XavierGreen (talk) 16:08, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

NYT appears to give RFK fewer states than The Hill. We can't engage in WP:SYNTH. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

A summary of reliable sources does not violate Wiki SYNTH. See [13]. The ballot access page itself provides reliable sources for each state that shows he has access to more than 270 electoral college votes.XavierGreen (talk) 17:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

It's SYNTH and an overreliance on WP:PRIMARY sources that are not taking into account ongoing legal challenges. Like PA for one. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:22, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

That lawsuit in PA was literally just filed. The new jersey lawsuit ended, Scott Salmon's case was defeated. Other than the PA lawsuit, the ballot access page actual does note where RFK, Jr.'s petitions have been challenged. Excluding PA, RFK, Jr. is at 274 electoral college vote access.XavierGreen (talk) 18:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

It would be WP:SYNTH if we said “RFKJR has ballot access to a majority of Electoral Votes” in the article. However, if it is clear to us as editors that he has sufficient ballot access, we should at least consider including him in the infobox. Most of the readers probably don’t even know that ballot access is a criterion for the infobox. And we are not directly making that claim to the readers if we include him in the infobox. Prcc27 (talk) 18:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Richard Winger, of Ballot Access News, states that RFK, Jr. has access to more than 270 electoral college votes. See the comment section of his post here [14]XavierGreen (talk) 18:25, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

❌Nay: As other editors have pointed out, the average of the five aggregators is under 5%. From The Keys to the White House: Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has been polling at between 2% and 12%. Lichtman's criteria is that a third party candidate is required to poll at an average of 10% or more consistently to turn the key false: as of August 5, 2024, Kennedy's polling aggregate average in a three candidate race is 4.2%.
Key 4 is turned false when a single third party candidate consistently polls at 10% or more, indicating they are likely to receive 5% or more of the national popular vote: third party candidates typically underperform their polling by around half, with Lichtman saying they tend to fade in the voting booth as voters focus on the major party candidates.
There's also the question: Do news sources treat him as a major candidate? No, his candidacy is no longer covered seriously. Articles about him now read like The Onion, e.g., a worm ate part of his brain, he buried a bear cub in Central Park. GhulamIslam (talk) 19:22, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The keys to the white house is absolutely not a criterion for inclusion. Prcc27 (talk) 19:36, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not saying it is, but his point that third party candidates typically underperform their polling by around half is true and not being considered by users pushing this "5% rule." GhulamIslam (talk) 19:55, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The 5% rule was already adopted in the past RFC on this page, and site wide for all elections pages.XavierGreen (talk) 22:14, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The "5% rule" refers to votes, not polls. The polling 5% standard adopted at this page is explicitly NOT site wide, but only for this page. GreatCaesarsGhost 15:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

✅Aye, he is in the conversation in an impactful way that exceeds the typical situation for third-party candidates. BD2412 T 21:12, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

No - He's not a major candidate & we shouldn't be pushing that he is. GoodDay (talk) 21:21, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

You supported the ballot access and polling criteria at the RfC. Why the change of heart..? Many users feel like the goalposts are being moved. Prcc27 (talk) 23:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

They supported the BA, but did not comment on the polling. Which is part of the issue with trying to consider so many hypotheticals simultaneously; you don't even consider the guy polling at 18 is going to drop to 4. GreatCaesarsGhost 15:40, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Whether or not he is considered by you personally to be a "major candidate" is not relevant or NPOV. The prior RFC established a consensus that any candidate that has ballot access to 270 polls and is "generally" getting 5% in polling aggregators must be included in the page.XavierGreen (talk) 17:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

And for the millionth time, he doesn't have ballot access to 270. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

❌Nay and whoever added him to the article mid-discussion should remove him themselves to prevent edit warring over this. He's dipped down to 3-4% in most aggregates, so this is an odd time to add him per the 5% threshold. Right now he's looking more like a 2016 Gary Johnson than a 1992 Ross Perot. That said, maybe after the election, if a significant number of outlets report that he had a substantial impact on the election, we can revisit the 5% threshold and maybe think of some exceptions to it. I'm of the belief that Ralph Nader should be on the 2000 election page in spite of his low vote percent because it's widely believed he had a substantial influence on the election, so some tweaking to our criteria could be warranted. But for now, no. The 5% threshold is what we use today, and RFK Jr is struggling to meet it.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 18:10, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

also, as many others pointed out, the claim that enough states have put him on the ballot for him to have access to 270 ECVs is very questionable. The source appears to be a bunch of individual sources (some less reliable than others) about access in individual states all WP:SYNTH'd together to demonstrate that he's made it to 270, as opposed to any single reliable outlet reporting this.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 18:20, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Ballot Access News states he has exceeded 270 2600:1001:B121:9267:40FB:4D4D:2CF7:9184 (talk) 19:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Ballot Access News is a WordPress website with one or two writers. I personally would prefer a more notable source say it. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:05, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Exclude, it’s unclear whether he meets the criteria of the last RFC. Even if he does, the difficulty we are having applying those criteria illustrates the problem with them. They should be abandoned, and we should treat this by assessing whether reliable sources consider him to be an important enough element of this race that we should include his face next to the other two people. —JFHutson (talk) 23:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

538 is now <5% as are all other 3-way aggregators and 3/5 overall. I think this conversation is moot? GreatCaesarsGhost 15:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

For now maybe. But polls can shift. Prcc27 (talk) 17:26, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

They can, but the trend so far seems to be that Kennedy is trending down in polling. I personally doubt he will trend back up in any meaningful capacity. Talthiel (talk) 17:39, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Knew this was gonna happen; mentioned it above earlier. I really don't see how he could be added now, as he unambiguously fails to meet the criteria. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 19:00, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@GreatCaesarsGhost

5 way aggregators have him above 5% still. Buildershed (talk) 04:47, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Only 2 aggregators do 5-way aggregation, the majority do 3-way; there are more aggregators below 5% for him than above. The original RfC does not say "if one aggregator has the candidate above 5%", aggregators need to generally have him above the threshold. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 13:52, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Not anymore.. 538 has him at 5% again. If you average all 5 aggregates he is at 5.48%. As for ballot access? We currently have him at 333 Electoral Votes at the third party article. Prcc27 (talk) 17:22, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Update: Kennedy has been barred from the New York ballot which could lead to further challenges in states where he used the same address. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rfk-jr-disqualified-from-new-york-ballot-used-sham-address-residency-judge-rules https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1jlgyzzyz4o GhulamIslam (talk) 20:56, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Could, but Crystal until it happens. --Super Goku V (talk) 22:00, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• Include or be consistent with the state pages. It's weird that he is included on the majority of individual state pages, but not the national page. Fryedk (talk) 13:08, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

  Fryedk, which ones? I agree it should be consistent, meaning excluding him from individual state pages as well. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:40, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• This CBS News article[15] from Wednesday gives RFK Alaska, California, Colorado, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Nebraska, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Washington and West Virginia. The NYT[16] adds Hawai'i, Maine and New Jersey, and The Hill [17] adds Florida. That is reliable secondary confirmation of 279 votes with Delaware and Nevada to spare. I don't believe we have the 5%, though. GreatCaesarsGhost 18:48, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

  Exactly, Kennedy has now reached 270+ Electoral Votes, but there's a certain someone who continues to deny this. Lostfan333 (talk) 01:34, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Moratorium until November 5

IMHO, we should have a moratorium in place concerning inclusion/exclusion in the top infobox, until November 5, 2024. These constant attempts to add Kennedy/Shanahan into the infobox, is problematic. GoodDay (talk) 16:25, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@GoodDay No. It would make sense to include major candidates in the infobox, and right now he should be treated as such. Jayson (talk) 16:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

A moratorium is only viable is RFK is included. Collorizador (talk) 17:04, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I concur that a moratorium should only be imposed if RFK is included, because he clearly meets the inclusion criteria set forth by the last RFC.XavierGreen (talk) 17:17, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The moratorium GoodDay is referring to is a moratorium on this disruptive WP:IDHT push to include RFK in the infobox. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:27, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

What's disruptive is the constant anti-RFK POV-pushing. There is no sensible argument to keep RFK out of the infobox. Therefore, no moratorium should take places unless RFK is in the infobox. Collorizador (talk) 17:30, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Sensible arguments: third party candidates always underperform their polling, he does not appear to be getting access to 270 EVs, and it's a two party system whether we like it or not. There you go. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:45, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Doesn’t matter if third party candidates usually underperform polls. That is borderline WP:CRYSTAL. Besides, I argued for a 10% threshold, but the consensus was for 5%, so the time to argue 5% is too low is over. We are not “pushing” to include RFKJR. He met the RfC criteria, so now we add him to the infobox. We will survive having him in the infobox. FYI, in 2016 we had several third party candidates in the infobox. Prcc27 (talk) 23:04, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I concur. Attempting to enforce the results of the RFC that established the inclusion criteria is not disruptive. Attempting to keep RFK Jr. out of the infobox, when he meets the inclusion critera is disruptive.XavierGreen (talk) 17:47, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@XavierGreen Let the fool in the infobox and let him in now! ✅️Aye is final for me Jayson (talk) 17:43, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Not meant to be directed at you sry Jayson (talk) 17:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

So if RFK Jr. drops below 5% in just one other polling aggregator, he should be kept? This moratorium is just an attempt to keep him in the infobox until the election, which makes no sense as he is not truly considered a major candidate anymore. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 18:53, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. It makes no sense to add him at all. Unfriendnow (talk) 19:36, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

It seems like the overwhelming consensus is to include Kennedy. Someone add him to the infobox. -Jayson (talk) 22:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I see no overwhelming consensus to do that. So, let's not add him. GoodDay (talk) 22:30, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Are we really going to drag our feet with this? He meets the polling criterion. As for the ballot access criterion.. it looks like he meets that as well. The reliable sources seem to be doing a terrible job updating their ballot access maps. If that is the reason we are excluding him, maybe the ballot access criterion was a bad idea after all. We already had an RfC and I don’t understand why we are moving the goalposts. Prcc27 (talk) 22:46, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, thank you!! Kennedy has now met the Criteria for inclusion. Trying to find excuses to keep him off for longer is wrong. Again, the Criteria has been met!! Massive Aye Lostfan333 (talk) 22:50, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

That whole RFC was a joke. You can't list 8 different options, have a combination of two of them get ~ 15% support and call it consensus. You are right about the ballot access in particular being a problem, but we also have the issue of what "generally" means. GreatCaesarsGhost 23:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Most of the people supporting 5% were conflating polling with results, and made no comment recognizing that partial ballot access would reduce this number. He also does not appear to be getting access to 270 EVs. Adding him is ridiculous and unnecessary. Especially considering in the same time period, there have been 6 polls that show him below 5%.

He also is simply not a major candidate like the other two as many people and news organizations have pointed out. Unfriendnow (talk) 22:54, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I supported 10% for this exact reason. Partial ballot access makes it that much harder to get 5% post-election, and I did in fact make that argument at the RfC. Nevertheless, I was out-!voted, so we should stick with the consensus we came up with which is 5%+ polling average. RFKJR meets that threshold. Prcc27 (talk) 22:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Of the last 5 polls in a five-way matchup, 3 of them are below 5% and 1 of them is exactly at 5%. Other polls show him below 5%. Adding him now to the infobox when he hasn't been consistency above 5% is ridiculous. It would make sense to add him if he was above that number in general but he isn't, If polling aggregators tomorrow or the following week show him below 3% are we then going to have to take him out of the Infobox? are we going to have to check the polling aggregators every hour??? this all seems so unnecessary especially since his polling numbers are consistently going down ever since Kamala has became the Democratic Party's nominee.   Unfriendnow (talk) 23:09, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh my gosh. We already agreed on using polling aggregates. Individual polls are useless. Prcc27 (talk) 23:11, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Decision Desk HQ/The Hill as of August 9th has him at 3.4% (yesterday it was 3.8), Silver Bulletin as of August 9th has him at 4.1% (yesterday it was 4.5), and 538 has him barely above 5%. If they go below 5%, most aggregators will also fall below 5%, so adding him now will probably require removing him in a few days. In that scenario, there's really no reason to add him. Adding him to the infobox because only one polling says he is barely above 5% is simply illogical. Unfriendnow (talk) 23:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Silver Bulletin being a major aggregate is debateable. Prcc27 (talk) 23:21, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Nate Silver basically created the industry. RCP doesn't even weight polls. GreatCaesarsGhost 23:39, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Point of order I don't believe the suggested moratorium would be remotely enforceable. GreatCaesarsGhost 23:39, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree that this is most likely unenforceable as it's essentially asking us to keep a status quo until election day, regardless of discussion and regardless of polling. Polling which, just as a reminder to all the people asking that he be included, absolutely does not support his inclusion right now.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 18:27, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Cornell West candidate box

I think we should remove Cornell West’s candidate box. He is still way below 270 EVs ballot access, and it does not appear that he will hit this threshold anytime soon. Prcc27 (talk) 05:45, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I personally like Cornel West, but you are likely correct. It is an enormous shame that the U.S. system is not truly democratic, so a proportionate percentage of influence depending on the total number of votes is granted to all of the parties that enter the election, like in many European countries. David A (talk) 06:41, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes @Prcc27:, as a third-party candidate, only Kennedy even deserves to be considered for a candidate box. (And it seems like he'll barely finish with 5% due to double-haters dramatically decreasing after Biden dropped out. 15%-> 7% in 2 weeks is insane. A lot of Kennedy's support, of course, was not about him, but because of a strong dislike of both Trump and Biden that many people had. With Harris: that seems to be reduced quite significantly.) KlayCax (talk) 09:30, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

We should keep the Green Party and Libertarian candidates’ candidate boxes. They have 270+ ballot access, and they are relatively mainstream third parties. Prcc27 (talk) 09:48, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Personisinsterest (talk) 14:16, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

He is included in most polling, so I would keep him there, as he is still a notable candidate. Lukt64 (talk) 18:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

He is certainly notable enough to get a candidate box, there is a ton of media attention given to him (much more than Oliver). Due weight would argue that he is relevant enough to be included at the level of coverage on the page that he currently is.XavierGreen (talk) 17:40, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we should because I think he was notable when he declared his candidacy and switched affiliation twice and he is still notable since he is way more regularly polled than a lot of other less notable candidates Punker85 (talk) 21:13, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Keep, but monitor I concur with above that as long as he is 1 of 5 candidates being frequently polled, it should stay. I don't know why they are still polling him, but they are. GreatCaesarsGhost 18:25, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

But the threshold for the third party candidates seems to be ballot access.. Seems weird to have one criteria for third party candidates and another for independent candidates. Prcc27 (talk) 21:34, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

That's not exactly accurate. West and RFK got boxes long ago, before they had any access (or the opportunity to get access), on the basis of them being famous people and nominally credible candidates. I don't recall anyone arguing against this (and certainly not convincingly). Removing West now based on his campaign fizzling out is a reasonable suggestion, but it would be acting on vibes rather than any specific rule. But since we are making a decision based on vibes, I could not see the logic in having a box for Oliver and not West, given that pollsters are treating West more seriously. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:15, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Adding current EV ballot access for RFK Jr. and West

Oliver and Stein both have their current electoral vote potentials (the maximum EV's they could earn based on their ballot access) listed, but not RFK Jr. or West. Could we get that fixed? CoolGuy314 (talk) 20:33, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Which section are you referring to? David O. Johnson (talk) 15:39, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

"Third-party and independent candidates" lists EV values for Oliver and Stein, though Stein's is cited to her own campaign and Oliver's is 3 months old. We can certainly add if there is a source, but as another discussion on this page notes, there often isn't. GreatCaesarsGhost 20:46, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Trump's criminal conviction

In the third paragraph the article touches on Trump's legal troubles but the information appears wrong. The civil fraud case was not a criminal case. And if the article mentions him being found liable of sexual abuse and civil fraud, it should definitely mention him being convicted on 34 counts of a felony. 2601:548:C200:41E0:F7FA:270C:C602:1D30 (talk) 04:23, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 August 2024

In the "Democracy" subsection of the "Campaign issues" section, change "Project 2025 is a proposed plan by the Heritage foundation to centralize power..." to "Project 2025 is a proposed plan by the Heritage Foundation to centralize power..." (capitalizes the F in Heritage Foundation, as is done at The Heritage Foundation.) MooseMike (talk) 06:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done. --Spiffy sperry (talk) 14:32, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Projected Electoral Votes infobox

There are two questions:

1. When should we add a state’s projected electoral votes to the infobox on Election Night?
   1. When a majority of major media networks make a projection.
   2. When all major media networks unanimously make a projection.
   3. When one major media makes a projection.
   4. Other?
2. Which major media source(s) should we use for the projected electoral vote tally?

Prcc27 (talk) 06:19, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

1. Option 2: A state’s electoral votes should only be added to the infobox based on unanimously projected Electoral Votes. Unanimous projections for the infobox tally is the compromise we more or less settled on in 2020. But for the map, I think we should use light red/light blue shades for states where a majority, but not all major media sources have made a projection; and save the darker shades for when the major outlets unanimously agree. Some users got impatient waiting several days for all news outlets to call Georgia. I feel like if we would have shaded GA light blue (like this), users would have been more patient waiting to add Georgia’s electoral college votes to the infobox. Per WP:NOTNEWS, there is no rush to add a state’s EVs to the infobox tally, if the state still has not been called by all major networks. Adding a state to the infobox based on only 1 or 2 media projections would be WP:UNDUE and problematic, especially in light of the AP/FOX Arizona projection controversy.

2. ABC, AP, CBS, CNN, and NBC are the sources we should use. These media organizations, (along with FOX, which we already agreed not to use), are usually considered the “major networks” when it comes to election projections (see National Election Pool and AP VoteCast). Last election, we used over a dozen news organizations, which made things very confusing and hard to keep track of. Narrowing the list of sources we use down to just five major sources will make editing drastically easier/simple, and would give due weight to the most prominent outlets and avoid giving undue weight to organizations that are less prestigious. Prcc27 (talk) 06:23, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Concur All of this looks good to me. GreatCaesarsGhost 15:37, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 Best to be certain. GoodDay (talk) 13:55, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 Since what Prcc27 has described. However, we should make sure to state that on the top of the talk page. Qutlooker (talk) 20:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. We should probably start an FAQ. I’m surprised we still do not have one. Prcc27 (talk) 20:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 Concur with Prcc27, including the use of a lighter color to indicate that the majority of sources have called a state. LK (talk) 14:05, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 per Prcc27, literally agree with everything there. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 18:53, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Something like option 1 but this whole RFC is unnecessary and misguided. Existing Wikipedia policy is sufficient for content disputes. At this time, there is no content dispute to decide. WP:UNDUE says we reflect the prominence of views in reliable sources. If a few reliable sources disagree with a broad consensus, we should show the broad consensus and use a footnote. We need to stop treating this page like it’s special and that normal Wikipedia policy for content disputes don’t apply. —JFHutson (talk) 19:57, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  The RfC is absolutely necessary. In 2020, we were split on when to add a state, and we ended up not updating the map on Election night because consensus was still divided; it was blank. We did not have an RfC in 2020, so I am hoping an RfC this year could avoid some of the issues we had last time. Requiring projections from only some/most of the sources only, rather than unanimous projections from the sources has WP:SYNTH issues. For example, in 2016 when we combined sources to call states, the race for Trump was called by Wikipedia several minutes before any major media organization had declared Trump the President-Elect. This was an extreme violation of WP:SYNTH that occurred because some outlets called WI for Trump, while others called PA for Trump (both states together putting him over 270 on our map); but no organization had called both states so every media organization still had him under 270. I also created plausible scenarios on my sandbox which show that Wikipedia could be the first to declare a nationwide winner (before any news organization names a President-Elect) again in 2024, if we jump the gun and add states where a majority (but not all) of the sources have made a projection. WP:DUE is met with the light blue/light red shades on the map. If we use option 1 or 3 for the infobox, we could end up violating WP:SYNTH and declaring a national winner before the media. Prcc27 (talk) 20:48, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  The SYNTH issue is in updating the number of votes with our own calculation. We should wait until the broad consensus is that a candidate has x votes before updating that. It’s probably best to leave the projected vote count blank until that time. But if reliable sources agree that a candidate has won a state, we need to say that even if there are holdout sources. —JFHutson (talk) 21:06, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  But we would be saying a candidate has won the state on the map (light blue/light red), and maybe even in the body of the article as well. We would just be more cautious on the infobox tally. We are allowed to make our own calculations per WP:CALC, as long as it is an accurate reflection of the sources. Obviously, having a candidate above 270 in our infobox tally when no major media organizations agrees, would not be in the spirit of WP:CALC. I do not think many users would agree with leaving the infobox tally blank. Prcc27 (talk) 21:22, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah I take back the comment that we should leave the total blank. If there really was a general consensus at some point that Trump was projected to win enough states to win the election, then putting that in the infobox would have been a Dewey beats Truman kind of thing, but the media’s problem, not ours. I don’t think that was the case. In your scenarios, we’re just reporting what the reliable sources are saying. Though I don’t think we use a simple majority. It would be more like if one outlet is holding out, we shouldn’t let that keep is from showing the “consensus” view. — JFHutson (talk) 00:13, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Trump infobox photo

Official Portrait October 6, 2017 (2017-10-06)

In March, a consensus was established not to use Trump's official presidential portrait from 2017 (right) in the infobox for this article. However, since then, editors have been unable to decide on which photo to use as a replacement (alternative options below), and some editors have expressed support for using the 2017 portrait for at least one of the following reasons:

1. They never supported switching away from the 2017 portrait in the first place
2. They think that reverting to the 2017 portrait would resolve the ongoing disagreements about which photo to use as a replacement

Should Trump's official portrait from 2017 be used in the infobox of this article? Vrrajkum (talk) 19:11, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support - I believe that if you weigh the relevancy of his notability (the time he was president) vs the difference in appearance to a more modern one, we should just use the official portrait. I think he looks consisent throughout most of the alternative options, so let us just use what was prevalent when he was president.

MaximusEditor (talk) 17:47, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Alternative Options

• 
  July 26, 2024 (2024-07-26) (Option 1)
• 
  July 26, 2024 (2024-07-26) (Option 2)
• 
  June 15, 2024 (2024-06-15) (Option 3)
• 
  June 6, 2024 (2024-06-06) (Option 4)
• 
  June 6, 2024 (2024-06-06) (Option 5)
• 
  October 10, 2023 (2023-10-10) (Option 6)
• 
  July 15, 2023 (2023-07-15) (Option 7)
• 
  July 15, 2023 (2023-07-15) (Option 8)

Support As I mentioned above, news media are using Trump's official portrait for this election, as did the June presidential debate on CNN. There is also nothing inherently wrong with or misrepresentative about Trump's 2017 photo; he still looks very similar to how he looked when the portrait was taken. Vrrajkum (talk) 19:14, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose A different portrait should be chosen. The problem is before no consensus was ever reached because discussions quickly petered out. I think a new discussion should be opened on a non POTUS portrait being used. Talthiel (talk) 19:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I’m sorry, but the current infobox photo is terrible. Head tilted, weird facial expression, terrible background. I would prefer something newer than the 2017 portrait. But between the current infobox photo and the official portrait..? I say yes, use the official portrait. Prcc27 (talk) 19:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

You seemed to prefer File:Donald Trump (53067468124) (cropped).jpg from the same July 2023 event as the current image. I would rather that than the 7 year old OP. GhulamIslam (talk) 19:40, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I would support that image as well. Geffery2210 (talk) 19:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I would support going with File:Donald Trump (53067468124) (cropped).jpg or something similar as a compromise. I do not support the current infobox photo though. Prcc27 (talk) 20:23, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Support is my !vote, at least until we can agree on a compromise. Prcc27 (talk) 05:35, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

SupportThe 2017 portrait should be used because it’s his official portrait and there are no valuable alternatives. Geffery2210 (talk) 19:26, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Support: reliable sources are using it. He doesn’t look much different. An alternative has not been proposed. Generally, it is counterproductive to say that something else should be done without saying what exactly to do, so any “consensus” against this photo should be ignored. —JFHutson (talk) 19:53, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Support: Like what JF said, reliable sources are using The Offical 2017 Portrait instead of the current one. And like I said before, other candidates in infoboxes in previous U.S Presidential Article's have their pictures from years aside from the election year. ( InterDoesWiki (talk) 20:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: I think a more recent picture should be used because it would be more representative of his current appearance, it would be closer in time to the election and he is not the incumbent president Punker85 (talk) 21:25, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: As per reasons above, Trump is no longer President. Using a different picture of him solidifies that fact as the official portrait used in 2016 and 2020 implies otherwise. There is very little harm in using an updated portrait of his current appearance seeing as it's been nearly 8 years since the portrait was taken TheFellaVB (talk) 07:45, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Courtsey pings to those who commented on previous discussions @TheFellaVB: @IEditPolitics: @Punker85: @PizzaSliced: @Buildershed: @Goodtiming8871: @MaximusEditor: @Segagustin: @InterDoesWiki: @TDKR Chicago 101: @Herostratus: @Longestview: @Voorts: @Esolo5002: @Senorangel: @Tim O'Doherty: @GoodDay: @Some1: @Yeoutie: @LegalSmeagolian: @Fieari: @Thesavagenorwegian: @JohnLaurensAnthonyRamos333: @MarioProtIV: @Nursultan Malik: @Ahecht: @SquidHomme: GhulamIslam (talk) 20:09, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Just because there hasn't been a clear consensus for which up-to-date portrait to use, doesn't mean we should revert to this old one. I think the one in use at the rn, File:Donald Trump 2023 (double cropped).jpg, is preferable. We can start the ball rolling again with another image choice RFC if y'all think it's time. I'm content at the moment though. Just to be clear though, I prefer just about any recent image to one from 2017. TheSavageNorwegian 20:22, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: Infobox portraits should be representative of the candidate at the time of the election. More recent photos are more accurate in this respect. LV ^{✉ ✎} 22:17, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Support: - This is the most neutral portrait which can be used until a consensus on what to change the portrait to can be found. The status quo should be reverted to until something else to replace it is agreed upon. Not change it, argue about the changes, and keep changing over and over. Change and replace with a consensus, not change and replace with no consensus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LawNerd123 (talk • contribs) 20:30, 10 Aug 2024 (UTC)

• Support - at least as a placeholder, until a new one is chosen. GoodDay (talk) 22:25, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

  I agree use his official portrait till a new one is found. Geffery2210 (talk) 22:42, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: I prefer a more recent image of Trump. David O. Johnson (talk) 00:29, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support We basically want to use photos that make our subject look good, within the context of being accurate. There really isn't any way to make this guy look very good, but the official portrait is about as good as any. It is accurate enough. Also, how he looks right now is not supposed to be the major point. We're not a news site. Someday this guy is going to be dead, what photo will we use then? We are not supposed to be having to update photos as our subjects age. There are a fair number of articles about performers who are 70 now, or dead, that show them in prime. His prime was when he was in office, I guess. Herostratus (talk) 00:48, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  This is not for the photo to be used on Trump's article (to the point of the performers), which has been established in RfCs already to be his official portrait. This is for the photo to be used on the election page, where it is more important to have the person who's running now in my opinion, not who they were 7 years ago. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 06:34, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  @Unknown-Tree: Biden's official portrait from 2013 was used on the 2020 U.S. presidential election page while the election was ongoing, despite the portrait being 7 years old. Vrrajkum (talk) 09:03, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for your feedback. Using the official portrait seems fair and valid. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 02:21, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support Every alternative option has at least one obvious downside (there's too busy a background, he's not quite looking forward, his facial expression is odd, etc.) that is not present in the official photo. If Trump got a huge makeover in the last seven years, it'd make sense, but he more-or-less looks the same. I really don't see a good reason to not use it. Nojus R (talk) 01:33, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support only as a placeholder until a more recent option is agreed upon. Yeoutie (talk) 01:36, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose - Too much time has passed. The Trump from 6 years ago is not running now. I STRONGLY believe a more recent picture should be used in articles about his current campaign. Fieari (talk) 02:31, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Neutral: It has varied. 1988 uses a crop of George H. W. Bush's vice president photo. 1992 uses a crop of Bush's presidential photo instead. Also for 1992 and for 1996, we use a photo of Ross Perot from 1986 according to the file description. We don't have a consistent style so far as I can tell, outside of our preference for free use photos. Sometimes we even change the photo after the fact, as with the 2008 article using cropped photos of Obama and McCain taken the following year or 2016 using a crop of Trump's official portrait. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:00, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  One photo has never been used to represent three different candidacies though (see Nixon, FDR, Cleveland, Bryan, Jackson, Jefferson, & Clay). GhulamIslam (talk) 10:38, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose using his official portrait. It's been 7 years, and he looks substantially older now; a more recent image would probably be suitable. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 06:37, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support As the person who took many of these photos being considered, I believe the official White House portrait should still be used. As I've stated before, his appearance has not changed that much, and it's still very obviously recognizable as the person it's intending to show. Calibrador (talk) 08:13, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose using a photograph from 7 years ago; he looks very different today. A more recent image, perhaps one provided by his campaign, should be used instead. LK (talk) 14:12, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose using his official portrait; the current image is more recent and IMO better than the other (newer) suggested photos. Some1 (talk) 17:30, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  I don’t think we should use the 2017 portrait but we need to use a different one, the one being used now has a terrible angle, would be better to have a photo facing forward like the ones shown above. Geffery2210 (talk) 23:59, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support using portrait If we're not going to use his official portrait because it's 'outdated' then make up your mind about which portrait to use instead. I support using the official portrait until a preferable replacement reaches consensus. Plus, Trump's appearance hasn't changed that drastically since 2017 unlike Tammy Baldwin who has changed since her 2013 portrait but that's still being used on her infobox. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 05:18, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

  This isn't Donald Trump's page, this is the election page. 2024 United States Senate election in Wisconsin uses a much newer picture of Baldwin. Unknown-Tree🌲? (talk) 13:55, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

  What are you talking about..? The Wisconsin article uses her 2013 portrait. That is a much older picture of Baldwin than Trump..Prcc27 (talk) 04:22, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

  It looks like somebody changed her infobox photo to her 2013 portrait.. Prcc27 (talk) 04:24, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• Strong Support  : Three reasons support the use of the official portrait. 1) The existing photos of all US presidents, including Dwight D. Eisenhower, Harry S. Truman, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Jimmy Carter,Ronald Reagan. Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, etc., are the ones that capture their best likeness. There is no need to replace these photos with awkward facial expressions simply because the president has aged. It makes sense to use the best available photo. 2. Until President Donald Trump designates another official portrait, it is advisable to use the existing official portrait that best represents the person. 3. The alternative photos have several disadvantages, such as complex backgrounds, the subject looking away, or awkward facial expressions. Unfortunately, there is no photo that can adequately replace the official award photo. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 12:47, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

  On your first point, I have to repeat what Unknown-Tree said: we're talking about this article's infobox, the 2024 US presidential election, not the Donald Trump article.

  Until President Donald Trump designates another official portrait

  That would depend on him winning the election, and there's at least a 50% chance that won't happen. GhulamIslam (talk) 17:17, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose We should not use the same image for 3 elections over 8 years. GhulamIslam (talk) 01:33, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• I Strongly Oppose using a 7 years old outdated photograph. Trump is currently a much older man, and his portrait should preferably reflect that. David A (talk) 06:17, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Alternative options?

@Talthiel: @Prcc27: @Geffery2210: @Punker85: @TheFellaVB: @TheSavageNorwegian: @Longestview: @LawNerd123: @GoodDay: @David O. Johnson: @Unknown-Tree: @Yeoutie: @Fieari: @Lawrencekhoo: @Some1: @TDKR Chicago 101: Those of you who oppose using the 7 year old OP, or would use it only as a placeholder until a more recent option is agreed upon, which of the 8 alternatives do you prefer? (or propose another) GhulamIslam (talk) 20:15, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 2 or 5 Since we're not using the official portrait (still a bit weird IMO), either 2 or 5 will do. As long as there's a good quality image of him facing forward like Kamala is in her portrait, that'll do fine. TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 20:32, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 1, 4, or 5 work for me, I still opposing using the presidential portrait. Talthiel (talk) 20:42, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Approve options 2, 3, 6, and 8; and Oppose options 1, 4, 5, 7, and official portrait. LV ^{✉ ✎} 02:41, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I am open to options 1, 2, and 7, but would prefer something with a better background. Option 6 has a good background, but a weird facial expression, so I do not support that option. The presidential portrait is currently the best quality photo out of all the options (but I would prefer something more recent). None of the alternatives seem “presidential” enough for me. I want to reiterate my support for the presidential portrait, given I doubt we will get consensus for any other photo at this RfC. Prcc27 (talk) 04:18, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't want to start a separate RFC, but it would help if more people would notice and comment. There already seems to be a preference emerging for option 2.

I'd be fine with option 6: Harris, Stein, and Kennedy have similarly fulsome smiles in their photos. GhulamIslam (talk) 05:24, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 6, Option 3, and Option 8 seem to best encapsule Trump's character, but if we want something more neutral and up-to-date, Option 1 seems good as well. David A (talk) 06:23, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Option 6 I think is the best option out of the current options, because it gives a more natural look to the front compared to the other candidates. The reason is that It balances the angles and expressions of Harris, Stein, and Kennedy's current photos. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 12:45, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I still prefer the current image, which is Option 8. Just based on personal preference, really. Some1 (talk) 22:56, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

I do not mind using that image in terms of composition, but it is older than the others. David A (talk) 08:08, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Harris portrait

C'mon @Willform, this must be some kind of joke. We reached consensus on Kamala's Vice Presidential portrait being used. Just like how Al Gore, George H. W. Bush, Walter Mondale, and Richard Nixon (1960) all had their official portraits used. If you think a different image should be used please initiate a discussion about it instead of making the decision by yourself to change it. TheFellaVB (talk) 01:23, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Frank Luntz ... Democrats could win the White House the Senate and the House

Edit ...

Pollster Frank Luntz says ... "I'm going to say this for the first time ... the Democrats could win the White House the Senate and the House"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3p8krLZneA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Luntz 67.173.189.1 (talk) 14:13, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

This is merely an opinion, it therefore does not belong on the page.XavierGreen (talk) 15:03, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Pollster Frank Luntz said it again ... the Democrats could win the White House the Senate and the House

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2024/08/14/donald-trump-is-actually-giving-away-this-election-says-pollster-frank-luntz.html 98.46.118.50 (talk) 00:49, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended Confirmed Edit Request

Please do one of the following.

1. Insert "{{cn|date=August 2024}}{{As of?}}" after the last sentence in the section September 10: Harris vs Trump which reads "The two campaigns have not yet agreed to any other debates."
2. Replace the period of that sentence with "as of {{subst:today}}}}.{{cn|date=August 2024}}"
3. Cite the claim and include a date in prose.

McYeee (talk) 06:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Would this count for a citation? "Campaign officials for Vice President Kamala Harris said they would consider debating Donald Trump in Grand Rapids, but first he must demonstrate his willingness to participate in an earlier commitment. Trump, the Republican nominee in the 2024 race for the presidency, last weekend announced on social media his plans to debate his opponent, Harris, on Wednesday, Sept. 25 in Grand Rapids. On his Truth Social account, Trump said the debate would air on NBC and be anchored by Lester Holt. Harris campaign officials, though, said they reached no such deal with Trump or NBC on the debate." The date of the article is August 13th. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:17, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

That source looks good to me. Please replace the period at the end of that sentence with "as of 13 August. McYeee (talk) 07:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done with some tweaks. --Super Goku V (talk) 07:46, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Please replace the text inserted above with "As of 14 August." — Preceding unsigned comment added by McYeee (talk • contribs) 20:04, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done - nex time, please open a new separate edit request instead of reopening and already addressed one. Raladic (talk) 20:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Another Extended Confirmed Edit Request, 13 August 2024

Please change the red link Silver Bulletin to [[Nate_Silver#Post-FiveThirtyEight_career:_since_2023|Silver Bulletin]] or to not be a link. — Preceding unsigned comment added by McYeee (talk • contribs) 06:18, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

 Resolved: I've created Silver Bulletin as a redirect to the target you mentioned. Left guide (talk) 06:36, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-Confirmed Edit Request: Please remove {{date}}

Please remove the {{date}} template by undoing [18]. The documentation of that template reads, in part "This template should only be used internally in other templates". McYeee (talk) 20:40, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done - thanks for pointing this out. Undone the change. Raladic (talk) 20:48, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Deletion of endorsement-related lists

I have started a AFD, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Joe Biden 2024 presidential campaign endorsements. Despite the name, it is for all the lists of endorsements, not just Biden (but someone had to be nominated first to start a multi-afd, and Biden was first in the category, so he got to be the one in the name). Opinions are welcomed. Cambalachero (talk) 17:30, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Debates are a mess

The debate situation is a mess, and our coverage is starting to reflect that. I think we need to have an open discussion here as events emerge to ensure we are reflecting the facts accurately and avoid edit warring. The actual facts around the debate are very difficult to parse. For example, reliable sources are indicating that Vance agreed to a debate on CBS on October 1. Now we are seeing Vance hedging on that and asking for concessions.[19] GreatCaesarsGhost 17:47, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 August 2024

Can you please update the Economist column in the Electoral College forecasts table? It says updated August 13, but looks to be out of date to me. VA is a toss-up, for example, on Wikipedia but 83% chance of winning on https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/prediction-model/president/virginia/ 80.6.246.219 (talk) 19:29, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 23:38, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Edit Request: Democratic Party

In the section about the Democratic Party, it says that, should Kamala Harris be elected, she would be the second African American president. However, I believe that she is of Jamaican decent, which would make her the second black president, but not the second African American president. I believe an edit should be made to correct this Sutapurachina (talk) 02:22, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia goes by reliable sources, not by individual editors' interpretations of ethnicity. Acroterion (talk) 02:28, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

To add, "Jamaica is a country where more than 90% of the population is of African ancestry," said Judith Byfield, a professor at Cornell University who teaches Caribbean and African history. "So the idea that because her dad is Jamaican she has no African ancestry is completely false." --Super Goku V (talk) 06:44, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I see, thank you for the clarification, I did not know this Sutapurachina (talk) 09:56, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Kamala Harris' picture in the "Democratic nominees" section of this page

Hello.

The image used to represent Kamala Harris in the "Democratic nominees" section of this page has not been properly cropped, and as such makes Harris look too small to Wikipedia visitors.

As such, I request that the top image for Harris will be used in this section as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_United_States_presidential_election#Democratic_nominees

David A (talk) 08:32, 17 August 2024 (UTC)