Talk:Palestinians

The Roman rule and the name

It is worth to mention that after the Roman expel the Jews they changed the name from Judea to Palestine. 87.69.77.82 18:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

It's in the Palestine article. It's off topic here. <<-armon->> 10:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

RS

On the current edit skirmish on the intro - a magazine article by a non-expert cannot be considered an RS for such a claim. We need another source - an academic source, that is, by an expert in the field (political science, I guess). I'm sure it won't be hard to find - it's not a very contentious claim. okedem 21:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The issue about "Nation", as I explained before, is that it's disputed that the Palestinians are a "real" nation, rather than one "made up" for tactical reasons. Ironically, the Salon cite admits this. However, even if someone wants to dispute that the Palestinians are a nation, what's indisputable is that Palestinian nationalism has come about. So rather than taking a side, the intro should just state the facts -the NPOV way is to show not tell. <<-armon->> 12:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Right, just like the issue about "Jews" is whether they're "real" descendants of the Tribes of Israel, or whether their ancestry was "made up" for tactical reasons - maybe Britons or Mormons or Aleuts are the real Israelites. Come on, Armon! We're not obligated to defer to disreputable and often outright racist sources here; not in a lead section. Just as holocaust denial belongs in a subsidiary section far inside the article Holocaust, denial of Palestinian nationhood does not belong in this article's lead. When Ariel Sharon has made (admittedly duplicitous) reference to his desire for a "Palestinian nation state" alongside Israel, and Shimon Peres has expressed (ibid) sympathy for the "terrible problem of the Palestinian nation", and Israel's largest-circulation newspaper notes that "The Arab minority, in its tragic situation is torn between its desire to be an inseparable part of the state of Israel and its desire to be an inseparable part of the Palestinian nation", you can pack up your soapbox and move on to the next WikiWar, thank you very much. <eleland/talkedits> 13:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

You're comparing apples to oranges. Jews are an ethno-religious nation that has been around for a very long time. Palestinian nationalism, on the other hand, is very recent, and can easily be viewed as reaction to Zionism. The improperly cited stuff you removed here is evidence for that. Per NPOV, let's just present the facts and let the reader decide. <<-armon->> 20:50, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not the author's claim, it's the claim in the book he is reviewing by Rashid Khalidi, who is extensively quoted in this article and is a reocgnized authority on the subject. Stoip deleting it. Tiamut 20:39, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

If we're talking about the Samaritans, the situation with them is complex and they shouldn't be included as "Palestinian". A quote from the cite:

"In the West Bank, they are caught between the Israeli army and the Palestinian population. They must remain neutral in the face of Palestinian and Israeli politics, differentiating from the two sides, and also their neighbors, Jewish settlers." link

Looks like a real stretch to include them under the "Palestinian" label. The cite also says that there are Samaritan members of the PA, but that the community is also proud to serve in the IDF. <<-armon->> (talk) 21:25, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't have a problem including Samaritans if we could show that a significant portion have citizenship, since this is an issue of national identification. We shouldn't be using various rhetoric as a substitute though, something which is even clearer in the case of Druze and Jews. As far as I know, there are no Druze settlements in the West Bank, while those in Israel make a point of serving in the military. The Golan Heights have nothing to do with Palestinians, and those Druze identify with Syria. I recall that all this was discussed months ago though... Tewfik^Talk 18:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

They do hold Palestinian citizenship. I though one of the cites I provided already said that. But self-identification is sufficient here. See this and note that "A small Samaritan community still exists, especially around Nablus, and they both speak Arabic and identify with the Palestinians." Tiamut 20:39, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

This is not even close to being an RS. <<-armon->> (talk) 02:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh? How so? Please elaborate.Tiamut 18:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a religious advocacy group. It's not "Human Rights" but "Islamic Human Rights" and "duties revealed for human beings." <<-armon->> (talk) 22:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

You might also want to look at this paper which refers to "Palestinian Samaritans". He also explains how in Nablus, "Much of the local Palestinian population is believed to be descended from Samaritans who converted to Islam. Certain Nabulsi family names are associated with Samaritan ancestry - Muslimani, Yaish, and Shakshir among others." This source also attests to the fact that half of the Samaritan population holds Palestinian citizenship. As Palestinian citizens, certainly they deserve representation in a sentence discussing minority religious groups. No? Tiamut 18:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean about "Samaritan ancestry" -a Samaritan who coverts to Islam is a Muslim. As for "half of the Samaritan population holds Palestinian citizenship" -how many people are we talking about and do they identify as "Palestinian"? <<-armon->> 12:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Read the source. He explains what is meant by that by "Samaritan ancestry". As to your second point, there are 700 Samaritans worldwide: 350 of which live in Holon as Israeli citizens and 350 of which live in Nablus as Palestinian citizens. Considering that half the Samaritan population worldwide are Palestinian citizens, I consider them worthy of inclusion in this article. Tiamut 12:46, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

As I said, the source you gave doesn't show that they identify as "Palestinian". They aren't "Palestinian citizens" because a country called "Palestine" doesn't exist yet. Can you explain why you're so insistent that 350 people out of 9 million plus be highlighted like this? I don't get it. <<-armon->> 20:59, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't get why you're so adamant to delete this well-sourced information and why you keep shifting the goalposts. Tewfik said he would accept their inclusion if a source could be found that said they were Palestinian citizens. I provided that source above. That same source calls the Samaritan community in Nablus "Palestinian Samaritans". Other sources I have provided have also explained that Samaritans identify as Palestinians. Your repeated deletion of this information is unwarranted. The sentence is discussing minority religious groups among Palestinians. Samaritans are one of them. Why can't you accept that? Tiamut 21:08, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Please just answer my question -why are you so insistent that 350 people out of 9 million plus be highlighted like this? <<-armon->> (talk) 22:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not highlighting them to mention in a sentence in the introduction that besides Sunni Muslims and a significant Palestinian Christian population, there are also smaller Druze, Jewish and Samaritan minorities. If you spent less time deleting the sources in the body that attest to these facts and more time reading them, you would not be asking such questions. Additionally, there are only 700 Samaritans in the world and 50% of them are Palestinian. Do their small overall numbers preclude us having an article about them? No. Does it preclude us mentioning them in a sentence with other religious minorities? No. For the last time, stop deleting sourced information and don't pretend you have consensus for your edits. If you noticed, I'm not the only one reverting your deletions. Tiamut 22:39, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

"Most common term"

Armon, can you give me the source for the claim that "Palestinians" is the "most common term" for the subject of this article? Thanks, --G-Dett (talk) 23:56, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a source which states it explicitly but there is this (5,310) vs. this (17,400). I'd have to appeal to a bit of common sense on part of the editors here. <<-armon->> (talk) 00:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Only a fraction of those 17,400 hits in your Google Scholar search use the phrase "the Palestinians" in a sense synonymous/interchangeable with the subject of this article: Arabic-speaking people with family origins in Palestine. Many (perhaps most) use it as in reference to a much smaller subset of that collective entity. Looking at the first page of search results (ten hits), for example: #1 and #8 refer only to "the Palestinians" living in Israel (i.e. Arab-Israelis); and #2, #3, #5, and #7 refer to "the Palestinians" living in the occupied territories (and/or their political leadership). Only four out of ten (#4, #6, #9, #10) refer collectively to the subject of this article.--G-Dett (talk) 16:59, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

OK well even 40% of 17,400 is still more than 5,310. Also, if we're slightly less strict with the sources, and search Google News, we get 2,004 vs. 11,618. <<-armon->> (talk) 19:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Anyway you cut it, in most instances the phrase "the Palestinians" does not refer to the subject of this article, but rather to the occupied territories as a political entity; in other words, to what we'd call "Palestine" if Palestine were a state. Hence it's usually paired with "Israel":

– Only 16 percent said their sympathies lay with the Palestinians, compared to 45 percent for Israel...
– A stalemate in negotiations may lead Israel and the Palestinians to write up separate statements detailing their political agendas ahead of the U.S.-led peace conference...
– The fate of some 3.5 million Palestinian refugees across the Arab world is one of the toughest issues in negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians. ...

Those are all examples from the first page of results from your Google News search. Another helpful indication that this or that instance of "the Palestinians" refers to the political entity rather than the diasporic people is when substituting one for the other yields nonsense or something at least very odd-sounding. To take another example from the first page of your Google News search: "The Palestinians have named a road after Sri Lankan President Mahinda Rajapaksa to signify his steadfast commitment to their cause over the past 30 years." Note how bizarre the substitution would sound. These just aren't synonyms.--G-Dett (talk) 20:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Even if we accept your assertion that in most instances the phrase "the Palestinians" does not refer to the subject of this article (which is I think is dubious, but for the sake of argument...) it's still by far, the most common name. <<-armon->> (talk) 20:34, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

No, "John Smith" is the most common name, but it's not a name for the subject of this article. "The Palestinians" sometimes is and sometimes isn't, and is in that respect ambiguous in a way "Palestinian people" isn't. If there's evidence that the former is a more common name than the latter for the subject of this article, you haven't shared it with us.--G-Dett (talk) 20:40, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Please spare us the proof by assertion -it's a waste of time. <<-armon->> (talk) 20:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Again, if there's evidence that "the Palestinians" is a more common name than "Palestinian people" for the subject of this article, you haven't shared it with us. I don't think you understand what proof by assertion is, but when you wrote "it's still by far, the most common name" in response to a request for evidence of same, that was a pretty good example.--G-Dett (talk) 21:02, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Evidence. Even if you can argue the toss about the use of the term 60% of the time, the remaining 40% of 17,400 is still more than for the "Palestinian people" phrase -and that's without arguing the toss regarding those results. There is also Google News, where we get 2,004 vs. 11,618. <<-armon->> (talk) 19:59, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

'The extremists are seeking to impose a dark vision on the Palestinian people, a vision that feeds on hopelessness and despair to sow chaos in the holy land.' George W Bush address at Annapolis.http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iBAo1yCOOLr02NJfYtgrYmyZQKxAD8T66H682

Indeed they are ... by dragging us into this useless debate again. Is there a solid, policy-based rationale for this proposed name change? How long can a dead horse be beaten? Tiamut 18:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm relieved indeed that you too noticed the natural ambiguity in GWB's use of extremists, and that you can see the appropriateness of the term to describe certain POV-pushers in here. A barnstar, if only I knew how to send one!Nishidani 21:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Try to stay on topic guys. Thanks. <<-armon->> 11:56, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Smearing Golda Meir as a racist unjustly

I have re-added the section on ARAB leaders who state that the so-called "Palestinian People" do not exist. This is necessary because the attempt to only quote Golda Meir is a transparent attempt to paint Golda Meir and the State of Israel as racist and thus violates the NPOV standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoricalReality (talk • contribs) 14:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Many of your quotes simply don't say what you think they do. Stating the uncontroversial fact that historic Syria encompassed a wide area including modern Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, and the West Bank has nothing to do with the existence/non-existence of a Palestinian people. Nor do Palestinian ambitions to unite with Jordan (where Palestinians are the majority) have any bearing on the issue.

Furthermore, there's a long tradition on Wikipedia of drive-by dumping fabricated "quotes" from the Israeli ultra-nationalist Right onto Palestinian pages. Given that many of your supposed quotes (did you read the Dutch newspaper, which by the way, websites date at 1977, not 1997?) come up with Arutz Sheva when Googled, I really hope this isn't another one of those drive-by smearings. <eleland/talkedits> 01:30, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Fictitious histories,Countries and the creation of fictitious Peoples in an effort to smear the Jewish People

This addition to the "Palestinian People" article is an attempt to discuss and determine the extent to which there is , was or will ever be any peoples known as the palestinians.

• There is a group of people who refer to themselves as Palestinians, and other people refer to them as such. So well, they exist. Funkynusayri (talk) 23:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

How many Shias?

How many Shia Muslim Palestinians are there if any (not counting Druze)? Funkynusayri 00:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

A handful I think. I haven't seen any official figures, though I do know of one family in Nazareth of Metawali origin who came as refugees from one of the seven villages with a predominantly Shia population. (See also: Qadas, al-Malkiyya). If I find a source with something more concrete and verifiable, I will let you know. Tiamut 01:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

• Awright, because I think it might be good to have it in the article... Funkynusayri 01:18, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

recent revving

per this rev - [1].

1. with all due respect to rashid khalidi's statement in salon. he's not quite an objective figure on whether or not "palestinians" represent a nation. i'd expect better sources on this one.
2. let's fix the Jewish palestinian, palestinian Samaritan and palestinian Druze properly on talk rather than revert them in and out based on gut feelings. please start proper subsections and lets work things in based on highly reputable sources rather than single articles of non expert sources.

-- Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 01:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

1. What makes him less than objective? The fact that you disagree with his conclusions? He's a titled professor of Arab Studies at Colombia, the head of its Mideast Departmant, and editor of the Journal of Palestine Studies. He's a top-tier reliable source, and the fact that you'd "ask for better sources" raises questions about whether you understand WP:V at all.
2. It's a little rich to revert to your preferred version, then argue that we should all stop reverting to our preferred versions. Unverifiable or inappropriate material may be challenged or removed at any time, but if the removal is at all questionable, it should be discussed. Until the people who want to remove it at least try to offer a consistent, logical rationale, I don't see anything at all wrong with ignoring them. <eleland/talkedits> 14:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

1. what makes him less objective is that he has an agenda and is a representative of the arab perspective. if this is so clear, then there should be no problem in finding other high profile sources.
2. this subsection [2] had some talk on the issue and it seems that there was no agreement on the insertion of that material.

(offtopic comment:) please avoid the personally oriented discussion. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 18:44, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I agree fully with Eleland here. I might also add that Rashid Khalidi is used throughout the article, and no one had a problem with his credentials until he was used to support that idea that Palestinians are a nation. That some people don't like that conclusion is not a reason to remove the material.

Further, regarding the Samaritans, Druze and Jewish religious minorities; the material in the body of the article on these communities was in this article for months. No one sought to remove it, until a sentence was added to the introduction mentioning that these and small religious minorities amongst the Palestinian population. All of sudden, this material was deemed objectionable and it (and the offending sentence) began to be removed by Armon and Tewfik (though Tewfik has since desisted).

So Jaakobou, if you have a strong, policy-based rationale for why this material is not relevant or suitable to this article, please put it forward. In the meantime, I suggest you follow your own advice.Tiamut 18:52, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

1. But he's not a representative of the Arab perspective. He's a representative of the mainstream academic Middle Eastern Studies perspective in the United States. Sharon, Olmert, and Peres all talk about the future "Palestinian nation-state". Even the Israeli extremists who want to annex the West Bank and Gaza do so on the basis that Jordan is the "Palestinian nation-state", ([3]) and there is thus no need for an additional one. (Elon Plan) It isn't a matter of who is "high profile" at all.
2. I do not understand the relevance of your link to that archive. In fact, even if the archive showed conclusive rejection of an idea, that would not preclude bringing it up again, particularly since many editors here were not involved in that discussion, and at least one has not been editing Wikipedia for some five months now.

On the question of Samaritans, Druze, and modern Palestinian Jews in the lede I can understand where both sides are coming from. Would it be acceptable to say, "Palestinians are predominantly Sunni Muslims, though there is a significant Christian minority, as well as smaller religious communities"?

On the question of those groups in the body I see nothing but frivolous blanking. The sources are there, the arguments against have been handwaving at best. <eleland/talkedits> 21:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

That there are maybe 300 people or less who happen to live in the west bank out of the 9,000,000+ in the world who identify as "Palestinian" is utterly insignificant. What Taimut (who seems to be only person pushing for this) needs to do is find proper, RS, cites which show that a) these religious communities actually identify as Palestinian (and no, a token example doesn't count) and b) that the Samaritans and Druze are actually significant to the topic. She has given no rationale at all for this.

Per the "nation" thing. I will continue to remove it because it violates policy. We all know there is a significant difference of opinion on the the issue of Palestinian nationhood. You can point to Khalidi, you could also point to Martin Kramer who a little more skeptical. It is therefore POV to attempt to have WP "settle" the issue according to your opinion -end of story. <<-armon->> (talk) 00:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

First, what do you think of my proposed changes to the lede? Second, what specifically is wrong with the sources which she has already provided? And what makes them "token examples"?

The given source appears to be a critique of pan-Arab nationalism generally, and I have not found any discussion of the nation-hood or non-nation-hood of Palestinians. I hope you aren't consciously wasting our time here. <eleland/talkedits> 00:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Given that the article states that they are 97% Muslim and 3% Christian, it's the Christians who are the small religious minority and they've already been mentioned. I'm still waiting on a rationale to mention them, period. As for the cite, if you seriously don't think that the "Palestinians are just Arabs" POV is citable, I'll get you a better one, but we both know it is. <<-armon->> (talk) 00:51, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

But "Palestinians are just Arabs" is not the same as "Palestinians are not a nation", that's original synthesis. Please provide more specific reference to the source so we can evaluate it properly. The rationale for mentioning Druze, Samaritans, and Jews is that they are verifiably members of these religious groups which identify as Palestinian, and the section is about the religious identification of Palestinians. If a hundred Black Hebrew Israelites decided they were Palestinians, moved to Ramallah, and were accepted by the PA as citizens they'd be worthy of mention here. It's not a matter of them being an "extreme minority" per WP:UNDUE as you have claimed in edit summaries. WP:UNDUE refers to undue weight on sources of opinion and has little bearing here except by strained analogy. <eleland/talkedits> 01:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Please don't wikilawyer. If they're "just Arabs", they're not a distinct nation, just the Arabs who happened to be in Palestine at the time. <<-armon->> (talk) 02:44, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Please don't make implied accusations of wikilawyering with no specific reference, evidence, or argument to support them. A politician who believes that Austrians are just Germans got 27% of the Austrian vote; therefore Wikipedia should expunge all direct reference to an Austrian nation. No, I think not. Also I'd like some discussion on the minorities issue, when you feel up to it. Just don't reference WP:UNDUE in a completely misleading and invalid way; I know how much you hate Wikilawyering. <eleland/talkedits> 02:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I didn't imply anything, I'm respectfully asking you to stop. The argument (simple logic really) that you missed is in the next sentence. As for your Austrian example, I see nothing in that article making any sort of equivalent claims about Austrian nationhood, in the lead, or anywhere else. As for that Austrian politician, he's certainly not the first to take that position. <<-armon->> (talk) 03:28, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm respectfully continuing. Austria refers casually to the "nation", "national" this or that, several times throughout, and your wikilink to Hitler is gratuitous and confusing. (Don't take that as an opportunity to lecture about Austrian politics and the far-right; I mean that it's confusing in the context of a discussion of Palestinian nation-hood and Palestinian minorities.) Now, Since I've missed the argument, why don't you repeat it. You could even rephrase it for me in terms I might better understand. I don't even know which sentence you're referring to or even which posting.

The article has a top-tier reliable source calling the Palestinians a nation, and I've demonstrated that even within Israel there is broad political consensus for the necessity of a Palestinian nation-state. The only source you've provided thus far does not seem to have anything to say about Palestinian nationhood. If you wish the article to include the POV, historically significant but now discredited, that the Palestinians made up their nation-hood as a conspiracy against the Jews, you're free to do so. But that POV doesn't have veto power over impeccably sourced factual information in this article.

Do you intend to offer your opinion on my proposed change to the lede? <eleland/talkedits> 04:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The "top-tier" cite from Salon.com you refer to acknowledges that their "nationhood" is disputed and there certainly isn't a Palestinian nation state -see WP:CRYSTAL. See also: "There is as yet no Palestinian state, nor was there ever, strictly speaking, a Palestinian nation, over and above the collection of historic creed communities that coexisted in the Holy Land under a succession of imperial rules — most recently Ottoman and British." [4]

I'm not really going to argue about the "nation" soapboxing anymore because it's so clearly a disputed "fact" and therefore a vio of NPOV.

As for you suggestion on the lead, like I said, I'm still waiting on a rationale to mention a few hundred Samaritans and Druze who don't even identify as "Palestinian". <<-armon->> (talk) 10:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The fact that it's a salon.com citation is not very relevant considering that the author is Rashid Khalidi, a titled professor of Arab Studies at Colombia, the head of its Mideast Departmant, and editor of the Journal of Palestine Studies. It would be perfectly acceptable even if he was writing on his own web page. He acknowledges that their nationhood is disputed "in certain disreputable quarters". Your reference to WP:CRYSTAL has nothing to do with anything as I'm sure you know. And your is your link to an article by a British philosopher, which doesn't even really deny Palestinian nationhood, rather denying "strictly speaking" nationhood "over and above" being a collection of historic communities.

The rationale for mentioning Samaritans who are Palestinian citizens, Druze who identify as "an inalienable part of the Arabs in Israel and the Palestinian nation at large", and Jews who identify as Palestinian and serve on the Palestinian National Council is that the information is verifiably true and prima facie relevant, and that the only arguments against it have been — to be charitable — hand-wavingly vague. <eleland/talkedits> 22:27, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

suggestion - i suggest we break this subsection to two and regroup the arguments succinctly so that we could maybe raise compromises or ask for a 3rd opinion (from uninvolved users) on the issues. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 00:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

With respect to the lede, I've already offered a compromise. What do you think of replacing "smaller Samaritan, Druze, and Jewish communities" with "smaller religious communities"? <eleland/talkedits> 02:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I think your formulation Eleland, is a very respectable compromise.

About "nation", Rashid Khalidi, as I mentioned before is used throughout the article. He is as you put it, a top-tier reliable source on this issue. The information in the lead should therefore stay. Tiamut 11:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

it's clearly a good faith offer, but i tend to believe that "smaller" is just as neutral as "insignificant" (i.e. not neutral).. i'd suggest (again) we divide the topics and list down the sources we have on this issue. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 04:12, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

"Smaller" is purely, undeniably, 100% factual, wheras "insignificant" makes a subjective judgment about what is or is not significant. I would be OK with "much smaller" though; that does not seem to be a stretch given that we're talking about a few hundred or thousand people out of a population of millions. A little more subjective, but in this case I think the numbers are disproportionate enough to justify it.

As a semi-related question: are we presuming that "Sunni Muslim", "Christian", etc are ethno-cultural designations (just like I'm a "Protestant" atheist) rather than actual expressions of belief? Given the relevance of Marxism to the Palestinian struggle I would think that a significant fraction of atheists or at least non-religious people would exist among the Palestinians. <eleland/talkedits> 05:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

to use "smaller" when comparing between the number 1 and 25,000 is clearly (to paraphrase:) "purely, undeniably, 100% factual"; however, it's just as accurate to use "insignificant". now, for the third time, i suggest we divide the section into two so that we can register what the sources say and come to a final consensus that does not include WP:OR. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 21:01, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

This is neither a personal attack, nor incivil, but a reasoned conclusion based on your own statements, especially what you've said above:

You simply do not understand the English language well enough to contribute to a nuanced, semantic discussion on the English Wikipedia. The differences between the words "small/large" and "significant/insignificant" are profound, and by definition "X is insignificant" is not a factual claim. <eleland/talkedits> 21:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

nothing wrong with the point i raised, that the word "small" is not-neutral/inaccurate for use here. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 02:54, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Could just say "few hundred". <<-armon->> (talk) 10:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

support the "few hundred" suggestion. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 02:54, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

On the "nation" question, I confess to being a bit baffled. Aside from highly debatable assertions that Khalidi is a "top-tier" source, using only one source to insist that a controversial claim be presented as fact in the lead just is not on. I appeal to the smarter editors of this page to see the reason there. Also, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, isn't it Jonathan Shainin making the claim, at least in the footnote? And further, I quote from the top of the article: "Palestinian-American historian Rashid Khalidi explains why Palestinians have failed to create a nation and discusses the grave situation in the Middle East." "Failed to create a nation." So, great: I'm sure there's room below the ToC to hash all this out. But in the lead, as fact? Come on. IronDuke 01:25, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

IronDuke, your words are right on target. The problem here is that, what to you and other smart/fair editors is simple; others, also smart but unfair editors, think that they have a right to present in the lead as fact, something that to every clear thinking person is a controversial and disputed issue. Maybe you can knock some sense into this article. Itzse (talk) 18:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Please read the article again. Note that headlines aren't usually written by the authors of the article and the use of nation there is meant to read nation-state (quite obvious when your read the discussion below it. This is false controversy. Also if you read the article here Palestinian people you will see many other sources attesting that Palestinians do indeed form a nation. (The development of a sense of "national identity", a process described for the first third of the article, usually requires a "nation".) Tiamut 03:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

The "headline written by someone else" is OR speculation. The author of the Salon article is Jonathan Shahin not Khalidi. Rashid Khalidi as a "Palestinian" is about as proper a source to "settle" the issue as a "Zionist" would be. Per NPOV "show not tell". I've removed this clear vio yet again. <<-armon->> (talk) 09:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Your argument is without basis. Should we remove all Jewish authors as sources from the article because of the potential for a conflict of interest? Stop deleting this accurate and reliably sourced information. It's getting very tiresome. Tiamut 11:31, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad that it has finally become tiresome. I got sick and tired of it a few months ago. I think it's time to go for arbitration. I'm turning it back to neutral until then. Itzse (talk) 18:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not going to arbitration over this, and certainly not with you Itzse. There is no solid policy-based rationale for the removal of this information, which restates in a direct form what is already in teh article body; i.e. that Palestinians are nation, without a nation-state. Heck, even Bush said so at Annapolis. Please get with the program. It's 2007, not 1907. Stop reverting reliably sourced, accurate and verifiable information. It is, when done repeatedly, against the admonitions of many other editors (not just myself) considered vandalism. Tiamut 21:26, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not up to you, to go or not to go for arbitration; you don't own this place. Your disagreement is not with me (imagine that I don't exist); it is with the other editors who you choose to ignore. The crux of the matter is: is it for Wikipedia to decide such a controversial issue and especially in the lead? If you don't recognize another side to the story, or that it is at all controversial; that is your problem. "Nation", "Nation-state", "1907" or "2007", "accurate", "reliably sourced", "fringe", "vandalism"; is what you're going to bring to the table; I'll just bring one fact, which is that the whole subject is "disputed".

Until then please don't revert again to your point of view. Is that too much to ask of you? Itzse (talk) 21:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

arbitrary break

The word nation, (throughout the article), and the source say explicitly:

"Though one still hears, from certain disreputable quarters, the claim that the Palestinians are merely Arabs, and therefore should content themselves with residence in one of 'the other 22 Arab states,' most of the world now acknowledges that the Palestinians are a nation, entitled to self-determination, presumably within a state of their own."

Please provide evidence that states that "Palestinians are a nation" is "disputed". In other words, please provide sources for your assertion that this well-sourced piece of information is incorrect or in dispute. Until then, the information stays. Indeed, it is required per WP:LEAD Tiamut 22:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Tiamut, are you saying that "nation" is not in dispute? Itzse (talk) 22:07, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I am saying that the extreme minority viewpoint that holds that Palestinians are not a nation is not sufficient reason to delete this information from the lead of the article, particularly when the national identity process, its emergence and formation, form the first third of the article. I am also saying that in the absence of anything in the way of reliable sources attesting to the fact that there is a dispute over this issue that is significant enough to deserve mention somewhere in the article, this information, reliably sourced throughout the article, should not be removed. Capisce? Tiamut 22:15, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Bring evidence that the view that "it is not a nation" is an "extreme minority viewpoint".

You haven't answered the question: are you saying that "nation" is not in dispute? Itzse (talk) 22:23, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you not reading the sources provided? Shall I bold the relevant passages?

"Though one still hears, from certain disreputable quarters, the claim that the Palestinians are merely Arabs, and therefore should content themselves with residence in one of 'the other 22 Arab states,' most of the world now acknowledges that the Palestinians are a nation, entitled to self-determination, presumably within a state of their own."

This quote firmly establishes that those who deny that Palestinians constitute a nation are a fringe minority. Tiamut 13:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

as i've stated before, far better sources are required. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 22:26, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

a million and one have already been provided. but i'm always happy to pull in a spare. Here's another, in Dan Rabinowitz and Khawla Abu Baker's book, Coffins on Our Shoulders, on page 12, they write: "Baruch Kimmerling and Joel Migdal argue that the Palestinian nation emerged in a series of anticolonial struggles..." Tiamut 22:56, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

with all due respect, are you citing a citation of a citation? what book and version of kimmerling and migdal are you supposedly referring to and is it an original or a translated version? even so, let's assume it is an original for the sake of argument - what is the context of this phrase and does it truely state what you intent it to state. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 03:13, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Note to IronDuke as well, from another review of Khalidi's work:

It is Khalidi's central thesis that Palestinian identity, far from being a product of the 1947-49 nakba was in fact constructed over a long period of time, most importantly during the nineteenth century. While this claim should hardly be surprising to serious students of the evolution of Arab identities, it is one that needs to be reiterated because of the persistent denial of the legitimacy of Palestinian nationalism or even the existence of the Palestinians as a distinct people. On the one hand, this denial is absolute, as in Golda Meir's notorious remark that the Palestinians did not exist, or Joan Peters's more recent tendentious (and largely fraudulent) book claiming that the Palestinian Arabs were predominantly if not exclusively recent immigrants from neighboring regions. Indeed, it is a sad comment on the state of at least popular discussions of the Arab-Israeli conflict that Khalidi, writing after the official Israeli acknowledgement of Palestinian national aspirations and recognition of the PLO as their representative in the 1993 Oslo accords, is forced to refute the spurious claims of From Time Immemorial.

As I said before, those contesting the inclusion of this verifiable, accurate and reliably sourced information attesting to Palestinians constituting a nation are asked to provide a source (other than From Time Immemorial) that says that they are not. Tiamut 23:15, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

So we have Khalidi as one side of the dispute; by any chance is Khalidi Muslim? but again are you saying that "nation" is not in dispute, that only extremists take that view? Why do you feel that your POV should trounce others? Bring proof that "nation" is not in dispute; otherwise "nation" doesn't belong in the lead, or both point of views need to be presented in the lead. Itzse (talk) 00:10, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Please provide a reliable source that espouses the "other" point of view. Tiamut 00:19, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

First state, that you believe that there isn't another point of view; otherwise what's the use arguing. Itzse (talk) 00:22, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not here to argue anything Itzse. I've provided you with reliable sources (over and over and over again) that attest to the wide circulation of the view that Palestinians are a nation. I have told you that I have seen no evidence to suggest that anyone in disagreement with that view is anything other than part of an extreme frigne minority. I am asking you to provide a source that states that there is indeed a widespread belief that Palestinians do not constitute a nation. From there, discussion is feasible. For now, it's completely hypothetical and waste of time (mine and yours). We can discuss what to with any new information and how to treat it in the body of the text - and then we can decide what changes need to made to the lead, if any. Tiamut 00:32, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not here to argue with you either. I'm here to get that POV word "nation" out of the lead. At the most you have provided sources for one point of view; if they are reliable is another question. You dismiss the other POV as an "extreme fringe minority"; where do you get that from? The existence and creation of the State of Israel is the other point of view, and the need for an Annapolis conference, is because there is another point of view. If you want to play blind, that's your problem. I'm taking this for arbitration even though I have no time for this. Itzse (talk) 00:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Your refusal to provide even one source is noted. Tiamut 00:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Your refusal to acknowledge the other side of the Palestinian conflict is duly noted. That's why arbitation is the only answer. Who knows, maybe if they solve it here, they will then be called to solve it there. Itzse (talk) 01:03, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

This is insane. I am trying to have a source-based discussion with you, not solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. While related to the subject matter at hand in this article, it is not even the subject of this article. The subject of this article is a nation of people who call themselves Palestinian people. I have provided you sources and the article itself attests to the fact that most of the world recognizes them as a nation (not to be confused with nation-state. You have (so far) provided nothing but platitudes. Please focus on the task at hand. Tiamut 01:11, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention that "the other side of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" talks about its hope to establish a "Palestinian nation-state", and signed the treaties establishing the Palestinian National Authority. The official, stated position of the last 3 Israeli governments has been that there is a Palestinian nation. Bush talks about the Palestinian nation-state. I've already provided those references above. Yeah, you can find random pundits who still claim that there is no such thing as Palestinians, but who cares? You can find pundits of equal reliability and significance in the Arab world who claim that Israeli Jews are all descended from Khazars, or that the Holocaust killed "only" a few hundred thousand. Wikipedia is not hostage to every extremist claim out there; everyone of importance and notability relative to the issue accepts that the Palestinians form a nation. <eleland/talkedits> 01:17, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The word nation is hardly POV in this context, except for extreme anti-Palestinians. There should be no dispute over this. Funkynusayri (talk) 01:25, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

First off, Tiamut, I think your quote from Khalidi more or less makes my point. Nowhere does he say “nation”, but instead talks of “national aspirations.” That can only mean that they are not yet a nation, if I understand the word “aspire” (and I believe I do). But you asked for sources, which is fair enough.

• “You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people.” Hafez Assad to Yasser Arafat. (From A Durable Peace: Israel and Its Place Among the Nations By Benjamin Netanyahu (page 104))

• Zuheir Mohsen: “There is no such thing as Palestinians. There is no difference between us and the Syrians, the Lebanese [the Muslim Lebanese, obviously], the Egyptians, the Jordanians. The idea of the "Palestinian people" is just a new weapon in the struggle against the Zionist enemy.” (From Der Truow, 1977)

• David Ben Gurion: “: “There is no conflict between Jewish and Palestinian [Arab] nationalism because the Jewish nation is not in Palestine and the Palestinians are not a nation.” (From Fateful Triangle: The United States, Israel, and the Palestinians By Noam Chomsky, p 51)

• Golda Meir: "There is no Palestinian people. There are Palestinian refugees." (New York Times)

And I believe there are quite a few more.

I think one difficulty we’re having here is semantic. If we want to say that “Nation” means sovereign government, then “Palestine” fails. If we want to use it in the more lyrical sense of group of persons who consider themselves a people, then I think a powerful argument can be made for its use. The difficulty is, the reader isn’t going to be able to determine what sense we’re using it in if we put it in the lead like that. If someone wants to make up a “Nation” header and discuss these issues under it, that might be a good thing. But we shouldn't put a controversial, confusing statement up front in the lead. IronDuke 01:54, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but "nation means sovereign government" is such a stupid misconception that it's not our problem if somebody might hold it. Nobody would ever insist that Tsuu T'ina Nation or Chapel Island First Nation or Bridge River Indian Band shouldn't say "nation" because some poor soul might believe they're sovereign states. As I keep saying, all parties involved in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict recognize at least rhetorically the desirability of a Palestinian nation-state in the near future. Even the extremists (Elon Plan) argue that Israel should keep the West Bank & Gaza on the basis that Jordan is the Palestinian nation-state, therefore no "additional" state is needed to fulfill their national aspirations.

You provided a quote from the President-for-Life of Syria, hardly an objective source, and no longer reflective of the Syrian position. Another, unsourced and 30 years old, from somebody whose sole notoriety is being endlessly quoted on random "Masada 2000" "Eretz Yisrael" type websites to prove a fringe minority's point. And two from Israelis that have been dead for decades. Now, their POV ("no such thing as Palestinians") is most certainly notable for historic understanding of the issue, but irrelevant to the current position of all parties. <eleland/talkedits> 02:34, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Eleland, I would not have problems with coming up with some reliable sources of high profile making statements regarding the "nation" claim. i have no problem with the "people" word being used, but they belong to the arabic nation (which rejects them) and many of them subscribe to the islamic nation (which promotes their destruction). i believe they pose a "nationalistic movement" but don't believe the "nation" issue passed the 'neutral media perspective' just yet. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 03:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

• The "Arabic nation" is analogous to a "European nation", there is no point in redefining the term "nation" just so it doesn't cover Palestinians, look up any definition of nation and it gets pretty obvious that the Palestinian Arabs fulfill the criteria, as much as any other nation. Funkynusayri (talk) 03:36, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Eleland, I think your phrase “objective source” is useful here: it is, respectfully, looking at the problem the wrong way. There is no objective source here, it is, as I say, a matter of semantics. It isn’t like trying to determine the last digit of pi, where expert mathematicians might be consulted and come to a conclusion. Since the Palestinians lack much of what we think of when we talk about “nationhood”, it isn’t hard to see why some people deny that they are that.

As for your thoughts on what the word Nation is usually taken to mean, I think you’re off base there. From Webster's

1 a (1): nationality 5a (2): a politically organized nationality (3): a non-Jewish nationality <why do the nations conspire — Psalms 2:1 (Revised Standard Version)> b: a community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and government c: a territorial division containing a body of people of one or more nationalities and usually characterized by relatively large size and independent status 2 archaic : group, aggregation 3: a tribe or federation of tribes (as of American Indians)

It seems that “Palestine” fails some or all of these. (Note the third definition (not uncommon) that splits off federated tribes as having a separate status.) And some more sources, relatively sympathetic to Palestinians, I believe.

Your point about Jordan speaks, I think, to exactly my point: Palestinians do not regard Jordan as “their” state in the same way that they might, for example, think of Gaza. It is because some Israelis reject the idea that Gaza or the West Bank are part of a Palestinian “Nation” that people kep floating that idea. Now some more quotes:

• Palestine and the Middle East: A Chronicle of Passion and Politics - Page 62 by Jaffer Ali (2003) “Many Israelis still hold to the notion that there are no "Palestinians."

• Our Sisters' Promised Land: Women, Politics, and Israeli-Palestinian Coexistence by Ayala Emmett 2003 Page 44

"(Hanan Ashrawi, Shulamit Aloni, Alice Shalvi, Yael Dayan, and Naomi Chazan) were making a statement regarding Palestinians. Publicly, they broke Israel’s official denial of Palestinian nation-ness: they defied the Likud government’s position that there were no longer any 1967 borders, that the occupied territories (including the city of Ramallah) were part of a Greater Israel, and that there was no Palestinian nation."

I should note, of course, that bolding has been added. IronDuke 03:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

"1: national character 2: nationalism 1 3 a: national status; specifically : a legal relationship involving allegiance on the part of an individual and usually protection on the part of the state b: membership in a particular nation 4: political independence or existence as a separate nation 5 a: a people having a common origin, tradition, and language and capable of forming or actually constituting a nation-state b: an ethnic group constituting one element of a larger unit (as a nation)"[5] Funkynusayri (talk) 04:01, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

It is possible to argue that Palestinains fulfill some part of what it might mean to call themselves "a nation." It is also possible to argue that they do not, e.g., definition 4, in that Palestinians do not have political independence nor, as in definition 3, do Palestinians enjoy protection on the part of a "state of Palestine" (or if they do, they oughta get their money back). IronDuke 04:06, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

• Well, are for example Basques, Frisians, Kurds and Assyrians not to be labeled nations eiher? Funkynusayri (talk) 04:14, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Do we state that Basques, Frisians, Kurds and Assyrians are nations on WP? No. For one thing, those examples are ethnic groups, and where there's a notable ethnic-nationalist movement, such in the case of the Basques, our article maintains NPOV by stating: This article discusses the Basques as an ethnic group or, as some view them, a nation, in contrast to other ethnic groups living in the Basque area. -rather than insisting it be presented as "fact". <<-armon->> (talk) 05:50, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

What is done in other articles is not really relevant here. I don't want to start making comparative evaluations of people's claims to nationhood. I think it's rather deplorable that the baseline for that recognition isn't automatically the peoples' definitions of themselves. Indeed, as many editors have pointed out over and over again, as long as a group self-identifies as a nation, it constitutes a nation.

In the case of the Palestinian people, they have a national representative body in the Palestine Liberation Organization which represents them in the United Nations. That they constitute a nation is not widely disputed, though it is vehemently and persistently disputed by Zionists, or irrelevant to those unfamiliar with scholarship on identity and national belonging.

The lead, by using "nation" first and then "nation-state", while also mentioning the relatively recent crystallization of a Palestinian national consciousness, provides a faithful and descriptive summary of the subject at hand (i.e. the Palestinian people) while leaving space in the body of the article for these issues are discussed in further nuance.

The objections, in short, remain rather superfluous. I also concur with Eleland's analysis of the sources. They are very outdated and do not come from experts in the relevant fields. Tiamut 23:24, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

"Outdated"? Well, color me crazy, but 2003 seems like only yesterday to me... But I agree with you, Tiamut, that other articles aren't necessarily relevant here. What about this, since I think most of us agree on the bare-bones facts, but are stuck on terminology. What if we say something like:

"Palestinian people (Arabic: الشعب الفلسطيني, ash-sha'ab il-filastini), Palestinians (Arabic: الفلسطينيين, al-filastiniyyin), or Palestinian Arabs (Arabic: العربي الفلسطيني, al-'arabi il-filastini) are terms used today to refer to a nation[1] (in the sense of peoplehood) of predominantly Arabic-speaking people with family origins in the region of Palestine."

I'm not married to what I have in parens, but the gist of it is that yes, the Palestinians do call and consider themselves a nation in the sense that we pretty much all agree on. Fair? IronDuke 00:06, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Tiamut and Eleland. Yes, there are some Zionists past and present who assert that Palestinians don't constitute a people or a nation, just as there are various Arab nationalists, pan-nationalists, and extremists who claim Israel isn't a state but an "entity." Big deal. Wikipedia currently deals with that "dispute" by describing Israel as a state in Israel, and having a separate article on the deniers' terminology, "Zionist entity." Something like that could work here too. Perhaps a separate article called No such thing as Palestinians.

At any rate, the section on self-identifying terms in Wikipedia's policy on naming conflicts settles this dispute definitively. The fact that there have been and still are voices who deny Palestinian nationhood can be noted in this article or another, per consensus.--G-Dett (talk) 01:22, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with G-Dett here "self-identifying entities" and the terms they use for themselves are given precedence over what a minority of people think about them. Some of the denial of Palestinian peoplehood is already expressed in the article, per Golda Meir's (in)famous statement. But it's not a significant enough POV (per what we have so far in terms of reliable sources) to merit inclusion in the lead, beyond perhaps a quick line about how some Zionists persist in denying Palestinian nationhood. I don't think the parentheses is a good idea (it seems somewhat pedantic, given the rather common knowledge that there is no Palestinian nation-state). And by the way, that source of Netanyahu which is what I assume you are saying is from 2003, is quoting Hafez al-Assad who died in 2000 (and I don't know when he said that, perhaps you could check?) Thanks. Tiamut 01:34, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

G'Day, G-Dett. Clicking on the link you provided I see that you are, once again, very right. To quote from the 1st graf of the body of that page:

Names can sometimes be controversial because of perceived negative political connotations, historical conflicts or territorial disputes. However, Wikipedia does not take sides in a political controversy or determine what is something or someone's true, proper name. What this encyclopedia does, rather, is to describe the controversy. (bolding in original)

I think the above is exactly what I'm suggesting. IronDuke 02:21, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

If you read that section en toto, I think what it's saying is that if a group of people identify themselves as X, and another group of people says no way, you're no X, then what Wikipedia does is use the term X, and note the controversy if the controversy's notable. The example offered up by the guideline is remarkably close to our situation:

Suppose that the people of the fictional country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. The Maputans oppose this usage because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term.

Wikipedia should not attempt to say which side is right or wrong. However, the fact that the Cabindans call themselves Cabindans is objectively true – both sides can agree that this does in fact happen. By contrast, the claim that the Cabindans have no moral right to that name is purely subjective. It is not a question that Wikipedia can, or should, decide.

In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" does not conflict with the NPOV policy. It would be a purely objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves. On the other hand, not using the term because of Maputan objections would not conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Maputan POV.

In other words, Wikipedians should describe, not prescribe.

This should not be read to mean that subjective POVs should never be reflected in an article. If the term "Cabindan" is used in an article, the controversy should be mentioned and if necessary explained, with both sides' case being summarised.

The part I've bolded speaks to (indeed seems to be an elaboration of) the part you've cited, Ironduke. Taken all together, I understand this to mean that in these situations, Wikipedia should both use the term and describe any controversy surrounding it.--G-Dett (talk) 02:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Wellll, I think the example you provide would speak more to a debate about whether to use the word "Palestinian." There are some who object to the word itself as being essentially a made-up label slapped on a group of random semites who happened to be living in Israel as a way to artificially induce them to hate Israel. Does that mean we put quotes around "Palestinian" wherever we find it? No. Also, if, for example, a convicted murderer (we'll call him IronDuke) is on death row and loudly proclaiming his innocence, would we say in the lead of his article, "IronDuke is a former Wikipedia editor falsely accused of murder"? No, I don't think so, even if I self-identify as such.

And again, what I'm trying to get at here is that the notion of being a "nation" is complicated by the fact that "nation" means several different things. Can we all agree that Palestine is not a nation in the way that, say, France is? No clear boundaries, no capital as such, no army, no embassies, etc? If you scroll up and look at the definitions I provided, it's clear to everyone here "Palestine" doesn't meet a good chunk of what's usually meant by "nation," right? Anyone disagree with that last statement? IronDuke 03:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Pardon me, IronDuke but the analogies you've drawn are a rather poor fit and much of what you write comes off as equivocation. I would suggest you re-read the discussion above where the distinction between nation and nation-state is reviewed (use the wikilinks too. they're useful). You might also consider the line in the policy above the section quoted by G-Dett that discuss the deference we show to "self-identifying entities" vs. "inanimate" ones. Palestinians are a nation striving for to self-determination in a nation-state. If we omit this information from the article, we deny the reader an piece of information essential for their comprehension of what this article discussed: i.e. the Palestinian people. If you want to add more on how Zionists don't think Palestinians exist, you are more than welcome to do so. Keep in mind WP:UNDUE however. Tiamut 04:08, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

IronDuke is absolutely correct. This is a controversy to be discussed in the article, not a simple issue to be "decided" in the intro. (That is why I just reverted the article.) 6SJ7 (talk) 05:35, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Funny, its as though there was no RfC on this matter. The opinions of other editors have been solicited and there was strong support for its inclusion. Tiamut 13:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

As did I. It's a simple case of a violation of NPOV which is a non-negotiable core policy. <<-armon->> (talk) 08:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, you are ignoring WP:NPOV and Wikipedia's naming guidelines quoted above. How it is POV to report what most of the world believes to be true per the relaible sources provided above and throughout the article exactly? Tiamut 13:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Ironduke is correct about much of what he's saying, and he's clearly approaching this in a reasonable way, but Tiamut is quite right that he continues to blur the distinction between nations and nation-states. His point about "no clear boundaries, no capital as such, no army, no embassies, etc." is the most obvious example. I think the guideline on self-identifying terms clearly applies here; but it should also be noted that even in the academic literature "nation" is established through self-identification (Benedict Anderson's Imaginary Communities is probably the most important and influential text on nation-formation in modernity). If large numbers of Palestinians contested that identification, there would be an NPOV problem. Referring to a Lebanese "nation" would be an NPOV problem for precisely this reason – many Lebanese see themselves as part of a "greater Syria," while others see themselves as "Phoenicians," and look to Europe for their cultural orientation. But Palestinians both Sunni and Christian see themselves as tightly bound by a common history and a collective future, and the skepticism of outsiders is neither here nor there – both with regards to Wikipedia policy and to the anthropological definition of nationhood. That the likes of Hafez al-Assad on the one hand and Benjamin Netanyahu on the other have found reason to contest the existence of a Palestinian nation is interesting and notable, but it has no bearing whatsoever – with respect to NPOV or any other policy – on our use of the term.

This leads us to Armon and 6SJ7's ongoing confusion, which is of a very different order from Ironduke's casual and colloquial conflation of nation and nation-state. There is an important distinction between the notability and reliability of a claim, which Armon and 6SJ7 persist in ignoring. It is notable that certain figures – say, Zionists and pan-Arab nationalists – deny Palestinian nationhood, but their claims aren't reliable for either the definition of "nation" or the existence of a Palestinian nation. In exactly the same way, it is notable that various Arab leaders past and present have refused to recognize Israel as a state and insist instead that it's an "entity" in a temporary sense; but this position is not a reliable one to be factored in to an NPOV presentation of Israel's status.--G-Dett (talk) 15:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

to repeat myself, "with all due respect to rashid khalidi's statement in salon. he's not quite an objective figure on whether or not "palestinians" represent a nation. i'd expect better sources on this one." Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 21:08, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Good of you to repeat yourself for us dullards and half-wits, hanging on, as we are, as always, by a thread.

By the way Jaakobou, though Palin/I is/am right, I've always thought/now think Cleese/you got/get the best lines:[6]

Michael Palin: An argument isn't just contradiction.
John Cleese: It can be.
Michael Palin: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
John Cleese: No it isn't.
Michael Palin: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
John Cleese: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
Michael Palin: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
John Cleese: Yes it is!
Michael Palin: No it isn't!
John Cleese: Yes it is!
Michael Palin: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause) John Cleese: No it isn't.

--G-Dett (talk) 21:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

page lock

the page is locked (because editors refused to resolve disputes properly) so we've now degenerated onto a revert war on the talk page? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 06:50, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Jaakobou, the page is locked because instead of engaging in a substantive debate, you and your cohorts have stubbornly persisted in ignoring Wikipedia policy regarding WP:NPOV, WP:LEAD and relevant naming conventions to curry favor for an extreme minority viewpoint, held largely by Zionists, that denies that Palestinians are a nation. Then, when G-Dett wittily pointed out that your objections amount to mere contradictions, rather than substantive argumentation, you decided to try to delete her post here on the talk page. She rightly restored it, and then one of your cohorts came in to revert her restoration.

I have to say that the persistent deletions of reliably sourced and accurate information by you and others like Armon (talk · contribs) and Itzse (talk · contribs), done without engaging in any significant discussion, are extremely disruptive and frankly corrosive to any sense of consensus building. I hope that when the page is unprotected, you will take these views into account. Tiamut 09:51, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Tiamut, please avoid personal attacks and POV accusations (imagine one would turn and do the same on the people reverting to your preferred POV while contributing nothing but jokes to the talk page), and focus on the content dispute and finding ways to resolve it within' the wikipedia process. the page is locked because one side of the discussion wants a contested claim inserted into the lead and the other side of the debate is contesting this.

on point, i requested to see valid sources on this 'mainstream' statement to assess how 'mainstream' it really is. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 13:09, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I really urge you to re-read WP:NCON and consider it's application here seriously. As G-Dett pointed out above, we don't call Israel the "Zionist entity" even though there are millions of people who do, and we don't deny Palestinian nationhood even though there are millions who do. We go with what these entities call themselves, per WP:NCON.

Of course, we can review some more sources. Some of these have already been provided in the RfC on this issue in Archive 11:

• This journal discusses how Palestinians in the Diaspora accommodate their "ethno-national" identity with citizenship in other countries.

• Menachem Klein in "Between Right and Realization: The PLO Dialectics of 'The Right of Return'" (1998) in the Journal of Refugee Studies writes: "The right of return, then, became an important factor in the PLO's call for recognition that the Palestinians are a nation to which an injustice has been done"

• In the journal Nature: It should also be noted that the Palestinians are a nation of young adults and children.

Why so resistant to use such an obviously appropriate term to describe the subject of this article?

And why so resistant to this eminently mainstream source, Salon (magazine):Though one still hears, from certain disreputable quarters, the claim that the Palestinians are merely Arabs, and therefore should content themselves with residence in one of "the other 22 Arab states," most of the world now acknowledges that the Palestinians are a nation, entitled to self-determination, presumably within a state of their own.

It clearly indicates the mainstream usage of of nation to refer to Palestinians as distinct from nation-state is widely understood.

It's Orwellian to omit the word nation when the entire Palestinian struggle for self-determination has been a national one, widely acknolwedged throughout the world. Why deny reality? Tiamut 19:15, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Tiamut,

if you go over my past comments, i've stated that they are a national movement.

i'll go over your refs soon and respond. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 19:57, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

And now for something completely different (well, maybe not “completely”)

G-Dett, your arguments above are very nicety written; indeed, it is almost worth arguing with you merely for the sake of your lucid prose. Delightful as it is, however, it does not remedy that 1) you’ve sauntered casually past some of my arguments above and 2) you’ve muddled the argument that you did take up. To wit:

You think I’ve blurred the distinction between nation and nation-state? Try looking at what the reverters are reverting to when they insert the word nation back into the text. First line: “A nation is a form of cultural or social community.’ Do the Palestinians fit this? Yeah, sure, I guess—why not? So does Raider Nation. Helpful? Next sentence: “Nationhood is an ethical and philosophical doctrine and is the starting point for the ideology of nationalism.” Um… what? Assuming that sentence had any useful meaning, who is it that asserts the ideas contained in it? Source? Later on we have, “Past events are framed in this context; for example; by referring to "our soldiers" in conflicts which took place hundreds of years ago.” Were there conflicts in, say 1800 that involved the ancestors of people living in the territories today, and did those people call themselves Palestinian and/or think of themselves as a Nation. (I will award special bonus points to anyone who tries to assert that the Philistines were the ancestors of today’s Palestinians). Later we have, “A nation is usually the people of a state…” Well, not in this case. Then we have “In the strict sense, terms such as nation, ethnos, and 'people' (as in 'the Danish people') denominate a group of human beings.”

As I read that sentence, awkward as it is, it makes me realize that folks on this page are arguing that the Palestinians are a nation in that exact sense conveyed by the title of the article, “Palestinian people.” The Palestinians are a people, the article already conveys this, why add a confusing, contentious word with multiple meanings?

Also, I will reintroduce my earlier argument, as no one seems to have dealt with it. The quote in the footnote of the “Nation” version of the article says, “most of the world now acknowledges that the Palestinians are a nation…” And this is from who? Jonathan Shainin? Is he a "top-tier” source on Israel/Palestine? And again, the article begins with, “Rashid Khalidi explains why Palestinians have failed to create a nation.” Is it possible that Shainin does not agree with the header of his own article? Barely, though it’s far more likely that, had he disagreed with it, he would have had it removed. So what we have now, based on Khalidi’s rejection of Palestinian nationhood, and the sources I’ve brought, is a strong argument for specifically disavowing that the Palestinians comprise a nation—and doing so in the lead. I’m not making this argument, of course, but I think it’s fair to say that use of the word “Nation” in the lead is misleading at best, and at worst violates WP:RS, WP:NPOV, WP:LEAD, WP:UNDUE, and WP:SERIOUSLY, WHY IS THIS SUCH A HUGE DEAL?.

And once again: I am not conflating “nation” and “nation state”: the people inserting the word nation into the article are. IronDuke 18:13, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Since you keep ignoring my responses to your posts (fallen deeply for G-Dett's whimsy and charm no doubt - who can blame you?) I'm not going to bother engaging you further. I direct you however to my comments posted in response to Jaakobou's post in the section above. Tiamut 19:19, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention that Rashid Khalidi has written an entire book on Palestinian nationhood, and that IronDuke's "say 1800" standard would exclude a large proportion of the world's nations from "nationhood", including my own, given that its national identity was not established until some time after Palestinian national identity was crystallized. <eleland/talkedits> 19:26, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Tiamut, apologies for not responding. I in fact missed your reply to Jakobu, as I thought that thread was dealing with the removal of G-Dett’s comments which I was, frankly, not so super-interested in reading. (Also, I respectfully request that you inject a more G-Dett-ian level of whimsy and charm into your comments, or I will report you to the appropriate Wiki-authorities.)

To your point(s): I have dealt with the Salon thing in that a) Shaihan is not, AFAIK, a “top-tier” source and even if he were, at the very top of the article it says quite clearly that Palestinians do not comprise a nation. I could see including the Salon piece later in the article, but not as some kind of justification for defining the Palestinians as a nation and, too, we’d need to take account of the fact that the article also alleges that Palestinians are not a nation. Again: “Rashid Khalidi explains why Palestinians have failed to create a nation.”

The JSTOR article is behind a paywall, so I cannot say for sure what the article purports. Can you provide a link to a copy of the whole thing? In any case, from what I can gather, the article is investigating the very question we are debating here, and is also using the term “ethnonational”, which is clearly not the same thing as “nation.”

The Klein thing appears merely to assert that the PLO wishes for Palestine to be recognized as a nation, which I have no problem believing.

The third source you have is also behind a paywall, so I can’t say what context it appears in, though in this case I don’t think it matters; Nature, AFAIK, is not an authority on the Middle East.

And, finally, even if a good source was dug up asserting that the Palestinians are a nation, the term itself and the article we link to have multiple definitions. It isn’t helping the article to put a vague term like “nation” up front in the lead. We can hash it all out in a later section, but surely all agree here that the Palestinians do not meet some important criteria for nationhood. I’m in fact going to assume that’s the case, unless any editors want to write, “No, IronDuke, the Palestinians meet every reasonable definition of a nation, so they are one.”

Eleland, I am not positing that soldiers must have fought in 1800 in order for a country to claim nationhood, that is one of the many confusing, random definitions in the article folks keep linking to. Also, maybe my information is out of date, but since when is Canada a nation? People don’t call it the 51st state for nothing, do they? IronDuke 20:31, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

IronDuke, the Palestinians do meet every reasonable definition of a nation. If you review the discussion in Archive 11 on the RfC for this issue, you will see that of the different definitions offered, Palestinians were judged to fit every one. The only definition they fail to qualify for is not nation, but rather nation-state, which you continually seem to be confusing here. A paucity of familiarity on the part of some Wikipedia readers with the scholarship on nationhood, should not prevent us from using a term. It only means that we must bettert explain it. There are many good sources on this subject, many of which are already cited throughout the article. Indeed, it is impossible to speak of Palestinian nationalism without acknowledging that Palestinians are a nation. You can't be nationalistic if you do not share a sense of national identity with others; i.e. constitute a nation. Please review the discussion in Archive 11 under the RfC sub-heading (not the first one of whether or not Palestinians constitute a people, but the second oneon whether the fact that they constitute a nation can be mentioned in the lead.) And about wit, unfortunately, I have the very direst sense of humour, appreicated only by me. Tiamut 21:12, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Read the RCF and it looks to me a lot like the discussion here; certainly, no consensus was reached there. "Palestinians were judged to fit every [definition of nation]?" Really? By whom? I don't know how to make my point clearer other than to restate it: "nation" is too vague a term for the lead, and it is too easy to conflate it with "nation-state". Why not, as suggested in the IRC, simply use "people," as that is what the article purports to be about, instead of linking to a crappy, unreferenced article that sheds little light on what the word "nation" might mean in this article. (And on wit, you kinda sorta almost made a joke there at the end. I actually emitted a dry chuckle upon reading it so, cheers.) IronDuke 22:10, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

While there was no strong consensus to place "nation" in the introduction, there was clear consensus that Palestinians constituted a nation (i.e. Those who did dispute the notion provided nothing in the way of evidence for their assertions.) Also, the scholarly material cited in the RfC responses (which I've parsed and copied below for your convenience in re-review) indicates that there is a well-established difference in meaning between nation and nation-state, though colloquially they are often used as synonyms. However, Wikipedia doesn't write in colloquial language on subjects that require nuance. Further, "people" as a stand alone term is actually a much vaguer term than "nation".

Thankfully, I also found a copy of Rashid Khalidi's 1997 text Palestinian Identity:The Construction of Modern National Consciousness in my library. Since the major objection to the Salon magazine source was that it was not a direct quote from Khalidi, an expert in the field, but a review of his work by a lesser known author. From Khalidi's 1997 work:

"The purpose of this book is to overcome these impediments, in order to explain how a strong sense of Palestinian national identity developed in spite of, and in some cases because of, the obstacles it faced."(6)

and,

"The Palestinians, of course, do have one asset in spite of everything: a powerful sense of national identity, which we have seen they were able to develop and maintain inspite of extradordinary vicissitudes."(205)

"...a Palestininan identity has asserted itself and survived against all odds, and in spite of the many failures we have touched on. Dulles said in the 1950s that the Palestinians would disappear, and Golda Meir spoke in 1969 as if they had disappeared, going so far as to declare that they never existed in the first place. But they have not disappeared, and even their most determined opponents seem to have begun to reconcile themselves to this uncomfortable fact. For these opponents, whether Israel, or some Arab states or the great powers, the nonexistence of the Palestinians would have made things considerably easier at various stages of history. But inconvenient though their identity has often been for others, the Palestinians have remained stubbornly attached to it. This probably must be adjudged a success, although it is a small one.

Rashidi ends the book by stating that it remains to be seen whether the world will "finally allow the achievement of self-determination, statehood, and national independence the modern world has taught us is the 'natural state' of peoples with an independent national identity like the Palestinians." Tiamut 23:21, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Summary of position from the RfC and above

Palestinians are a nation

1. Here for the RfC. This is a non-issue. Both in terms of Wikipedia policy (see this) and anthropological theory, nationhood is self-defined. That is, there's no such thing as a group of people that sees themselves as a nation but isn't a nation. It's not he said she said. That said, of course it's good (neutral, encyclopedic, interesting) to historicize this self-identification. With respect, end of story.--G-Dett 03:10, 8 September 2007 (UTC
2. Indeed, the use of the word "nation" in this sense is not controversial at all, e.g., Britannica "People whose common identity creates a psychological bond and a political community" --Ian Pitchford 13:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
3. An outside comment for the RFC. I agree that, absent any specific arguments to the contrary, we should edit on the understanding that nations are self-defined. Resolving this matter should simply be a matter of providing sources that demonstrate that Palenstians are a nation or are not a nation. Is this RFC now satisfied or would people like comments on individual sources? Eiler7 14:41, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
4. Propose - that this RfC, having been open 3 days, be closed, and that "Palestinian people" be accepted as a nation (assuming we have RSs who say that is what some believe themselves to be). I propose this on the basis that (so we're told) "peoples" are free to self-identify as "nations", and I don't see any contra-indications to this claim. PalestineRemembered 12:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
5. Paul Schiemann, who championed minority rights during the period between WWI and WWII, pioneered the concept of separation of nation (Volksgemeinschaft—national community) and of state (Staatsgemeinschaft—state community). "Nation" is used to denote an "ethnic/cultural nation" which does not require land; what it does (at least from my readings) require is a sense of nation, that is, a demonstrated sense of common cultural heritage, unity, and purpose; of self-identity as a community of people, etc. I should also clarify that neither does "nation" imply "nationalism" in terms of striving for territorial acquisition, political gains, etc. And I should add that "Palestinian people" (people indicating shared origin) is not a substitute for "Palestinian nation." — Pēters J. Vecrumba
6. Nation is indeed uncontroversial, now, with regard to Palestinians, and those editors particularly, Israeli/Zionist, who oppose it with regard to Palestinians do so for ideological reasons, i.e. they wish to deny a 'national' status to the Palestinians in order to prejudice the latters' claims to a state identity on the West Bank and Gaza. This is well known, the quote I added from Hobsbawm, a world authority on the concept of nation, (and indeed impeccably 'Jewish' for that matter) underlines the point. The non-recognition is a political act, which reflects an early prejudice, one notoriously expressed by Begin who once addressed the Knesset with the words: 'My friend, take care. When you recognize the concept of 'Palestine,' you demolish your right to live in Ein Hahoresh. . If this is Palestine, then it belongs to a people who lived here before you came.' The two editors who opposed the use of the word 'nation' did so not out of editorial scruple, but rather from outworn political objections to the definition of a people whose history over the past several decades has formed, pari passu with the formation of an 'Israeli identity' (which also never existed before) their own national identity. As such the editing out of such references is a political act in violation of the rules.Nishidani 10:41, 10 November 2007 (UTC

Palestinians are a nation but not an intro piece of information

1. My take is that a group of people who identify as a nation (with sourcing) should be presented as such. With the controversy over the Ottomans and so on regarding what ifs, that material can come later in the article. Ngchen 15:38, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
2. From my personal reading of WP policy, 'nation' should work as a self-identifying concept via WP:NCON. But if you hold via WP:V (verifiability) that 'nation' is as good as 'people' for the article intro, it's still fair for folks to ask for your sources. HG | Talk 20:56, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Palestinians are not a nation

1. my take: the clear cut nation is arabs, palestinians are a mishmash of arabs and some ottomans (and very few others), i'm not sure on what really makes them into a nation other than them being held by the arabs as pawns (without citizenship or rights) in the arab-israeli conflict... i've seen the ottoman maps from 1860 and i honestly believe that without israel (now or in the future), there would be no palestinian "self identification" only clandish identification (iraq anyone?) within' the arab national. JaakobouChalk Talk 09:46, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
2. Sorry, I feel that Palestinians are a nationality, but not a nation, as they do not have a nation-state which is formally declared by them or recognized by anyone else; this is in accordance with the official view of all parties, including Palestinians themselves, I believe. They do not claim to have a formal nation, since they consider themselves still occupied by Israel. They are like the Kurds, Basques, etc, as being an acknowledged nationality, with some aspirations to formal political status as a fully-recognized nation. --Steve, Sm8900 14:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
3. Well, first, the definition of "nation" is problematic. Secondly, the first sentence loses nothing when the word nation is removed, so I just proceeded with that. Beit Or 18:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC) Adds "NPOV balance" to what? Armenians are possibly called a "nation" because there is a state of Armenia, so the word "Armenians" applies both to an ethnic group and the citizens of Armenia. The same cannot be said of Palestinians. Beit Or 19:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Nation is an ambiguous term

1. Outside view via RFC - nation is an ambiguous term, and can mean either a people in general, or a country. People is a nonambiguous term. In this instance, the desired meaning of the word nation is exactly the same meaning as the term people. There is no reason not to use the word people; nation appears to have serious WP:WEASEL problems. The Evil Spartan 20:41, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
2. I've removed "nation" for a few reasons.

A book review of Rashid Khalidi on Salon.com is a poor and partisan source for a consensus claim such as this. See WP:ASF and WP:RS The cite itself notes that there remains some dispute -which we know to be true, like it or not. It's unnecessary to "bang the point home" because the third paragraph addresses the issue perfectly well. See Let the facts speak for themselves

<<-armon->> 11:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Tiamut that the Palestinians meet every criteria of nationhood, as that term is used and defined by scholars and experts of the subject. The trouble is, there are lots of casual connotations of "nation" in its colloquial sense, and these are creating confusion.

In his seminal book Nations and states : an enquiry into the origins of nations and the politics of nationalism, Hugh Seton-Watson offered the following definition of nationhood: "A nation exists when a significant number of people in a community consider themselves to form a nation, or behave as if they formed one." Benedict Anderson drew on Seton-Watson's work for his own definition of a nation as an "imagined political community." "Imagined" here does not mean unreal or anything even close to that; it simply means that most members of a nation "will never know most of their fellow-members, meet them, or even hear of them, yet in the minds of each lives the image of their communion." Anderson's Imagined communities : reflections on the origin and spread of nationalism is probably the single most influential contemporary work on nation-formation and on the history of the concept of nation. Interestingly for our debate here, Anderson notes the confusion created by "the objective modernity of nations to the historian's eye vs. their subjective antiquity in the eyes of nationalists." Both the Palestinian who claims that Palestinian nationhood reaches all the way back to the Canaanites, AND the Israeli who claims that Palestinians can't be a nation because a hundred years ago they were "just Arabs," are equally falling prey to the subjective fallacy Anderson describes.

Now, the Salon.com article. It may be better just to use Khalidi's scholarship itself. Khalidi is an excellent source, in fact probably the best and most reliable source on Palestinian nationhood, having written the definitive books on the subject. The journalist however is something of a lesser source. And the headline writer does not even know what a nation is, period, and therefore misunderstood the article. Both the Salon article and Khalidi's work assert Palestinian nationhood; what they address is "the history of failures and disappointments in the Palestinian quest for statehood"; the headline-writer didn't grasp this elementary distinction, the very distinction upon which the entire article turns, hence the bungled title. Incidentally, Ironduke, I don't understand your reference to "Khalidi's rejection of Palestinian nationalism," any more than I would understand a reference to "Richard Dawkins' rejection of biological evolution."

This brings us to an important question. The headline-writer is presumably not an ignoramus. And Ironduke is quite right that the very fact that the headline was not corrected is telling. What does it tell us? It tells us the word "nation" is sometimes used in ignorance, or as a synonym for "state," and that plenty of educated people don't really notice. This does not however mean that the term is "vague." On the contrary, it's a very crisply defined term, and an incredibly useful one, but one that is, unfortunately, often misused. My own feeling is that we should use precise words precisely, and not patronize the reader by worrying that he might misunderstand them.

If we do choose, however, to avoid the word "nation" because of widespread misconceptions about its meaning, and to use "people" instead, we'll need to make absolutely sure that the latter word does not become part of a pea-and-shell trick. "People" can be a generic plural of "person" or a collective singular noun, "a people." Our article's subject is this collective singular. Our current lead, which introduces its subject as a term "used to refer to Arabic-speaking people with family origins in the region of Palestine," manages (through its weaselly omission of the indefinite article "an") to sneak in the generic plural sense, thereby smuggling in the discredited "just Arabs" meme into the article's first sentence.--G-Dett (talk) 00:33, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Just quickly, I would take issue wit the idea that this split between “nation” and “nation state” is somehow obvious, or at least indisputable. For example, in “Nations and Nationalism” by Ernest Gellner he writes, “Initially there were two especially promising candidates for the construction of a theory of nationality: will and culture. Obviously, each of them is important and relevant; but, just as obviously, neither is remotely adequate.” (Page 54.) Then later on the same page, “If we define nations as groups which will themselves to persist as communities, the definition net we have cast into the sea will bring forth too rich a catch.” Then on page 55, “Any definition of nations in terms of shared culture is another net which brings in too rich a catch.” And in Anthony D. Smith’s National Identity, “Conceptually, the nation has come to blend two sets of dimensions, the one civic and territorial, the other ethnic and genealogical, in varying portions in particular cases.” (page 15) So… it’s not abundantly clear where one needs and the other begins when we use an ambiguous term like nation, I think. And FWIW, I have no desire to see the article reflect that the Palestinians are not a people; that is something they can certainly determine for themselves. IronDuke 05:56, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Ironduke, the cites you've provided are great but they do not indicate any blurred distinction between nations and states. On the contrary, your man Smith, in the passage immediately preceding the one you’ve quoted, draws the distinction very sharply and explicitly:

Such a definition of national identity also sets it clearly apart from any conception of the state. The latter refers exclusively to public institutions, differentiated from, and autonomous of, other social institutions and exercising a monopoloy coercion and extraction within a given territory. The nation, on the other hand, signifies a cultural and political bond, uniting in a single political community all who share an historic culture and homeland.

Smith goes on to point out that “this lack of congruence between the state and the nation is exemplified in the many ‘plural’ states today.”

The fact that these two distinct entities are often found together (“overlapping,” as Smith puts it) does not create any conceptual “blur” between them; any more than the fact that feet and shoes are usually found in intimate embrace creates confusion about whether shoelaces and Adidas stripes constitute part of the human anatomy. Actually a better example of this kind would be the corset, because its use was more historically specific (roughly coinciding, as luck would have it, with the rise of the nation-state), and because it actually permanently altered the bodily contours of the lucky lady who got to wear it. State institutions can and do similarly shape national identity, altering the contours of the nation, as it were. But the two concepts remain distinct – “their content and focus are quite different,” as Smith puts it. Whalebone ribbing never “blurs” into the anatomy of the female torso, not even that of the most wasp-waisted WASP out of Wharton.

As for Gellner, in the passage you've cited, he is mulling over the difficulty of defining "nation" according to either will or culture (implicit is a critique of Ernest Renan's famous description of a "nation" as a community that wills itself to persist as a community). Statehood as such doesn't even enter into the discussion. Gellner decides that a definition purely centered on culture is inadequate because of numerous cultural differences within nations, while one centered purely on will is inadequate because it would admit "clubs, conspiracies, gangs, teams, parties, not to mention the numerous communities and associations of the pre-industrial age which were not recruited and defined according to the nationalist principle and which defy it." The too-rich-a-catch problem for Gellner, in other words, is not that nations-without-states would be included; the problem is that organizations not "defined according to the nationalist principle" would be included. Nowhere does he discuss or even suggest a blur between nations and states, and his solution to the definitional problem does not introduce or even allude to any of the features of statehood. The opening section of his book is indeed devoted to "definitions," with several pages given over to "state and nation":

In fact, nations, like states, are a contingency, and not a universal necessity. Neither nations nor states exist at all times and in all circumstances. Moreover, nations and states are not the same contingency. Nationalism holds that they were destined for each other; that either without the other is incomplete and constitutes a tragedy. But before they could become intended for each other, each of them had to emerge, and their emergence was independent and contingent. (p.6, Gellner's emphasis)

It's worth noting that Gellner, who is writing this book 25 years ago – that is, before either intifada, before Oslo, and before the return of the PLO leadership to the occupied territories – argues that "in the case of the Palestinians today, language, culture, and a shared predicament, but not religion, seem to be producing a similar crystallization" into nationhood. ("Similar" because he's just been talking about how, in the case of the Algerian independence movement, "a new nation is born.")

Can I just ask – not that the whole discussion reduces to this, but I do want to know – who are the scholars or reliable sources on nationhood who deny that the Palestinians constitute a nation?--G-Dett (talk) 17:59, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

This is all completely beside the point. We can argue the relative merits of any number of points of view on the "nation" question but it doesn't matter. There are obvious differences in perspective on this question which can be reliably sourced and which we aren't tasked with sorting out. NPOV requires us to not take sides, and not present opinion as fact. Very simple. <<-armon->> (talk) 22:53, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

...yet at the same time, NPOV requires us to evaluate the proper weight given to an opinion; minority opinions are respected yet not endorsed, while opinions of a very small minority are noted only in those pages about the minority viewpoint. Thus, if the "Palestinians do not exist" or the "Palestinians are a fake nation" viewpoint is currently held to only by a fringe of political extremists, not by any significant reliable academic or journalistic sources, then NPOV, in fact, requires us to "take sides" — in the same way that it requires us to state that Israel is a nation, a country, and a state, rather than a "Zionist entity", even though it is clear that some people do hold to the latter view.

While copious scholarship discusses Palestinian national identity, no scholars currently discuss the "No such thing as Palestine" view as worthy of serious consideration. Hence, it's a fringe POV that doesn't hold "veto power" over the other sources. <eleland/talkedits> 23:01, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a flat-earther type "difference of opinion". A "nation" is an idea, not a law of physics. Who you are attempting to paint as "political extremists", in many notable cases, aren't, they are simply those who don't share your beliefs. <<-armon->> (talk) 23:41, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Armon, you write that "there are obvious differences in perspective on this question which can be reliably sourced and which we aren't tasked with sorting out." But in the post of mine you're supposedly responding to, I finished by posing exactly the question you've slalomed around: who are these reliable sources on nationhood that deny that the Palestinians constitute a nation? Please note, I'm not asking about notable denial, of which there's plenty – I'm asking about reliable denial. Well?--G-Dett (talk) 23:28, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I've already given a couple, but why don't you take a look yourself? I guarentee you'll find better sources than a book review on Salon.com. <<-armon->> (talk) 23:41, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Er, isn't it rather apparent that (a) I have looked, and have found much better sources than the Salon interview, some of whom I've summarized here; and (b) none that I can find deny Palestinian nationhood? Sorry if this means repeating yourself, but what are your sources? You're not talking about the Martin Kramer thing are you? As Eleland pointed out, that one was totally off-point, being a critique of pan-Arab nationalism, an ideology very distinct from – indeed in key respects quite opposed to – Palestinian nationalism.--G-Dett (talk) 23:55, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I am also waiting for that 'reliable denial' of the Palestinian people as a 'nation'. Its usage in the lead is absolutely appropriate. Usage of any lesser term would be unencyclopedic. It would be unfounded and unjust, considering their documented 60-year transformation from 'only' a disposessed people in 1948, through the founding of the PLO, their recognition by the UN, their recognition of Israel and by the US, the establishment of the PA, and their negotiations with their adverserial nation-state, Israel. They have fought for, earned, have been recognized and therefore deserve this usage. Anything else would be, well, just a denial of the facts and acceptance of one POV. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 03:32, 17 December 2007 (UTC)