Talk:Acupuncture

Wiki Education assignment: Global Poverty and Practice

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2022 and 15 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Maansak, BriannaJohnston (article contribs).

Semi-protected edit request on 25 November 2022

The entry on acupuncture refers to the practice as “quackery”. This is an anxious bias and should be removed. 2600:1700:F1B1:5F8F:C1E5:9368:232C:4673 (talk) 21:27, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Reliable sources call it that. Reliable sources win against your opinion. --Hob Gadling (talk) 21:40, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Many of the sources in the Acupuncture article are in fact outdated, and occur reduntantly. Reference to Cochrane reviews of acupuncture is interesting, as Cochrane has been criticized for their own reviews being outdated, in terms of acupuncture. See, for example: Arch Intern Med. 2012;172(19):1444-1453. doi:10.1001/archinternmed.2012.3654 and EXPLORE May/June2018,Vol.14,No.3 ISSN 1550-8307 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.explore.2018.02.001. 38.81.106.1 (talk) 19:01, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

WP:PROFRINGE editors will never win. See WP:LUNATICS. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:45, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

It seems like that to laypeople because the bad studies will always be made before the secondary sources (reviews) that find out that the studies are bad. When the review comes out, it will quickly be "outdated" by the next bad study. Of course, the consensus is based on the reviews, not on the primary studies. Wikipedia is the same. Articles about popular quackeries like acupuncture or homeopathy regularly get "the article is outdated" threads on theír talk pages, although not nearly as many as "this article is biased" threads. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:21, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

We describe things on Wikipedia the way our best available sources in scholarly journals refer to them. They call it quackery, and as a result, so do we.— Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 22:34, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia's entry for acupuncture claims that acupuncture is "quackery". There are multitudes of acupuncturists who have reached out to have this entry updated with no success. Acupuncturists in California study for 4 years full-time just to get their master's degree and are licensed primary care providers who are eligible to order labs, imaging, treat personal injury patients and serve as healthcare experts on trials.

The most credible health organizations including the WHO, John Hopkins, Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic (to name a small handful) all recognize the benefits of acupuncture and traditional chinese medicine and offer acupuncture in integrative health settings. UCLA Health offers an east-west medical center specifically designed to offer collaborative care between eastern and western modalities and have MDs who are trained in acupuncture and eastern medical diagnostics.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/acupuncture/about/pac-20392763

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/4767-acupuncture

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/acupuncture

https://www.uclahealth.org/locations/center-east-west-medicine

This is just skimming the surface on all of the research that has been done that verifies the multitude of health benefits of acupuncture. There is current research on acupuncture being done at Harvard Medical School and Stanford. I am happy to send literature reviews on the many conditions acupuncture has been scientifically proven to benefit.

In addition, most health insurance companies also recognize these benefits and offer in-network acupuncture benefits. Moreover, Medicare is now covering acupuncture.

ChatGPT is the most cutting edge AI (which frankly, will replace Wikipedia if it continues to offer outdated and biased entries such as the ones I am highlighting and urging you to have edited), and if you ask ChatGPT about acupuncture or traditional chinese medicine, it is decades ahead of WIkipedia in the content it shares.

Please explain to me why wikipedia lags so far behind on the credibility of their entries on Acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine? 149.142.80.37 (talk) 20:33, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

The answer isn't simple because scientific credibility is not always related to legal status. The foundation and claims of acupuncture lack a good scientific explanation, as do the dubious claims of effects. The quality of research is also problematic, as research from China is always favorable, in contrast to research from the rest of the world.

Changes would have to be discussed here and properly sourced using the strict standards of WP:MEDRS, which are stricter than scientific publication standards. To make any progress, you'll have to make a very specific proposal (a few words or sentences), and the exact sources you'd like to use. Go for it. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:23, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Hello, my suggestion is to use sources like John Hopkins: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/acupuncture, the Mayo Clinic and the Cleveland Clinic and their websites that discuss acupuncture as proven effective for a variety of conditions from NIH studies. NIH studies, contrary to your simplistic claims, are not from China.

"National Institutes of Health (NIH) studies have shown that acupuncture is an effective treatment alone or in combination with conventional therapies to treat the following:

Nausea caused by surgical anesthesia and cancer chemotherapy

Dental pain after surgery

Addiction

Headaches

Menstrual cramps

Tennis elbow

Fibromyalgia

Myofascial pain

Osteoarthritis

Low back pain

Carpal tunnel syndrome

Asthma"

My suggestion would also be that rather than calling it pseudoscience, you mention "Acupuncture points are believed to stimulate the central nervous system. This, in turn, releases chemicals into the muscles, spinal cord, and brain. These biochemical changes may stimulate the body's natural healing abilities and promote physical and emotional well-being.".

Would you like references for studies that demonstrate these physiological effects?

The Cleveland Clinic also states "Scientific studies have confirmed its effectiveness for some conditions." If the Cleveland Clinic is publishing this on their website: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/4767-acupuncture---- How can you claim that we have a lack of scientific credibility?

How about the entry mentions that the "The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) regulates acupuncture needles.", since this is a practice that requires years of education in both western and eastern medicine and passing many exams to uphold a license.

If this is pseudoscience, why does the Mayo Clinic offer both MD's trained in acupuncture and licensed acupuncturists to their patients? https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/acupuncture/care-at-mayo-clinic/pcc-20392770 76.171.132.146 (talk) 18:32, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

If this is pseudoscience, why does the Mayo Clinic offer both MD's trained in acupuncture and licensed acupuncturists to their patients?
The mayo clinic also performs "healing touch" and "energy medicine" [1]. Mayo is not the authority on what counts as "pseudoscience". They, like many hospitals, are a business. If patients want something, and are willing to pay for it (especially out of pocket), then Mayo has no problem offering it. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:37, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Mayo has its issues, but even on acupuncture they say Several studies, however, indicate that some types of simulated acupuncture appear to work just as well as real acupuncture. There's also evidence that acupuncture works best in people who expect it to work. - which is definately not a full-throated endorsement. MrOllie (talk) 18:38, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Also, that line is showing how well-rounded the summary of research findings is.. what one you would hope Wikipedia would have the capacity to emulate. Do you know how many medical modalities and prescription medications that are not classified as "quackery" have similar findings of a placebo effect? Does the presences of a placebo effect constitute grounds for throwing away a body of research? Absolutely not. Moving on. Next? 76.171.132.146 (talk) 19:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

All treatment methods have a placebo effect, so your comment seems to miss the real point. Does the [blank] method have a significant beneficial effect above and beyond the placebo effect? Unlike mainstream methods, for AM treatments, the answer is "No". (The following is a curious thing to keep in mind. Many alternative practitioners claim their method or nostrum has "no side effects." Well, if a method has no side effects, it also has no real effects. That's what makes homeopathy the perfect placebo.) -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:01, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

What you just described is the scientific method. There is consensus literature that acupuncture does have statistically significant benefit for many conditions, hence why these major hospitals are publishing landing pages on acupunctures benefits as such.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9809733/

However, MrOllie highlighted how there are SOME studies that do not demonstrate greater than a placebo effect-- not all, not even the majority of studies, which clearly can not be used as an effective argument for why acupuncture should not be classified as a pseudoscience. 76.171.132.146 (talk) 20:14, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

also, FYI, acupuncture does have possible side effects. Not sure where you got that misinformation from. Most commonly, a hematoma (a bruise for the laypeople). Can also have more serious side effects, in case you would like to know. 76.171.132.146 (talk) 20:24, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

What you shared is a biased opinion where you are criticizing mainstream medicine's intentions. What are your medical credentials? What constitutes a "full-throated endorsement". Certainly, sharing that acupuncture is classified as "quackery" or as "pseudoscience" is completely baseless and inaccurate. 76.171.132.146 (talk) 19:36, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

• Wikipedia does not say acupuncture is quackery, rather that "it has been characterized as quackery". This is WP:Verified. Bon courage (talk) 02:39, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  That is a semantic argument that does not add to the discussion. The words quackery and pseudoscience should be completely stricken from this entry. 76.171.132.146 (talk) 18:19, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  As long as they reflect the opinion of mainstream medicine, they'll stay in the article. We don't do WP:FALSEBALANCE here, so we can't disregard the mainstream position in a misguided effort to meet proponents halfway. MrOllie (talk) 18:29, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  Thank you for proving my point exactly. The opinion of mainstream medicine is that acupuncture is scientifically proven to be beneficial for many conditions. What is more mainstream than the NIH, the Cleveland Clinic, the Mayo Clinic, John Hopkins and UCLA Health? Please read their website entries and update Wikipedia to accurately reflect the opinion of mainstream medicine.

  https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/acupuncture/care-at-mayo-clinic/pcc-20392770

  https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/acupuncture

  https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-what-you-need-to-know

  https://my.clevelandclinic.org/departments/wellness/integrative/treatments-services/acupuncture

  How about this excerpt from the Cleveland Clinic link shared above that states:

  "Studies using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) have shown that acupuncture elicits changes in the brain that correlate with neurological effects.

  Acupuncture affects the limbic and para-limbic networks in the brain and has a deep hemodynamic response, which is influenced by the psychophysical response. Acupuncture also stimulates the nervous system and improves conduction and communication between nerves. This improved functioning of the nervous system stimulates neurotransmitter actions and the release of the body’s natural endorphins and other opioids. For example, serotonin may be released following acupuncture, therefore helping patients feel more relaxed and sustain a sense of well-being that lasts for hours thereafter, if not longer. Research has also shown acupuncture’s ability in relieving myofascial pain by releasing muscular trigger points with ensuing concomitant anti-inflammatory effects.

  Acupuncture is one of the most popular and highly utilized services offered at the Cleveland Clinic’s Center for Integrative & Lifestyle Medicine. "

  Wikipedia's entry is far outdated and inaccurate and does NOT reflect mainstream medicines opinions. 76.171.132.146 (talk) 18:37, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  Those sources aren't particularly good. I did re-read the mayo clinic again just now, and it is not an endorsement as you seem to think it is. MrOllie (talk) 18:39, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  The opinion of mainstream medicine is that acupuncture is scientifically proven to be beneficial for many conditions
  Please see WP:MEDRS, and particularly how these links you keep providing actually do not qualify. Those are not medical sources. They are various FAQ pages for the public. We rely on more technical detailed sources to determine what we write here. That way, we don't get watered-down info that is vague and non-commital. We rely on detailed evidence. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:41, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  What do you qualify as a medical source? NIH studies are not medical sources? 76.171.132.146 (talk) 18:45, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  You think that an information page on acupuncture from the Cleveland Clinic is "watered down, vague and non-commital" but stand by uncredentialed nameless editors on Wikipedia who vehemently claim that the statement "acupuncture is characterized as quackery" is.. of what value? Please share your sources that verify that acupuncture is quackery. Since you seem to claim that the leading hospitals in the US are.. not medical sources. 76.171.132.146 (talk) 18:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  This is all explained at WP:MEDRS, which you have already been pointed to. I suggest you read it and come back if you still have questions. MrOllie (talk) 18:49, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  Here's a primary source for you:

  https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/140/4/914/3058778?login=false

  That is scientific literature published in Brain that was funded by the NIH on how acupuncture impacts neuroplasticity. I can share research like this all day long. Where are your sources on what is classified as quackery? Still waiting. 76.171.132.146 (talk) 18:51, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  Obviously does not meet WP:MEDRS. Once again, please read that page. MrOllie (talk) 18:53, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  where are your sources? I will be sharing exactly what you are asking for later today. 76.171.132.146 (talk) 19:14, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9809733/

  Here you go. How's this for a consensus? 76.171.132.146 (talk) 19:16, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  Typically we do not use sources which are 24 years old. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 20:20, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  lol. Did you see how large the NIH committee was from that source and the number of backgrounds on that committee? You can use that resource as the foundation for the next 22 years of additional growing literature that further substantiates the efficacy of acupuncture for a number of conditions. How recent of a source are you requiring? I am also waiting for your sources that prove that acupuncture is characterizable as "quackery" or "pseudoscience". You are particularly held to the burden of proof since you are supporting what is published by Wikipedia. 76.171.132.146 (talk) 20:22, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  That's not a 'NIH committee'. The panel was run by the Office of Alternative Medicine, which operated without any real review or consent from the rest of the NIH. When the NIH director put his foot down about it, Altmed's congressional backing stepped in and made them independent of the NIH director. It was about as far from a scientific process (or consensus) as one can get. MrOllie (talk) 20:28, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  "When the NIH director put his foot down"-- your bias is showing. What flair you discuss.. science with. FYI: "The conference was organized and supported by the Office of Alternative Medicine and the Office of Medical Applications of Research, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Md.". Looks like you left out (intentionally?) the Office of Medical Applications of Research as an organizer? 76.171.132.146 (talk) 23:32, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/1357513

  Further.. Let's see you negate this meta-analysis on acupuncture's efficacy in treating chronic pain from 2012 that has since been referenced in further literature 1221 times. How many times do you think this Wikipedia article can be referenced in scientific literature? hint, it's 0 times. the meta-analysis selected high-quality RCT's and it's lead author is from Sloan Kettering.

  " We conducted a systematic review to identify randomized controlled trials (RCTs) of acupuncture for chronic pain in which allocation concealment was determined unambiguously to be adequate. Individual patient data meta-analyses were conducted using data from 29 of 31 eligible RCTs, with a total of 17 922 patients analyzed.

  In the primary analysis, including all eligible RCTs, acupuncture was superior to both sham and no-acupuncture control for each pain condition (P < .001 for all comparisons). After exclusion of an outlying set of RCTs that strongly favored acupuncture, the effect sizes were similar across pain conditions. Patients receiving acupuncture had less pain, with scores that were 0.23 (95% CI, 0.13-0.33), 0.16 (95% CI, 0.07-0.25), and 0.15 (95% CI, 0.07-0.24) SDs lower than sham controls for back and neck pain, osteoarthritis, and chronic headache, respectively; the effect sizes in comparison to no-acupuncture controls were 0.55 (95% CI, 0.51-0.58), 0.57 (95% CI, 0.50-0.64), and 0.42 (95% CI, 0.37-0.46) SDs. These results were robust to a variety of sensitivity analyses, including those related to publication bias." 76.171.132.146 (talk) 23:38, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  In case you don't read the article: "Conclusions: Acupuncture is effective for the treatment of chronic pain and is therefore a reasonable referral option. Significant differences between true and sham acupuncture indicate that acupuncture is more than a placebo. However, these differences are relatively modest, suggesting that factors in addition to the specific effects of needling are important contributors to the therapeutic effects of acupuncture." 76.171.132.146 (talk) 23:45, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  Vickers has been extensively discussed in the archives of this talk page. I won't rehash it again beyond saying that their results are heavily disputed by others, and even Vickers says that the effects are slight at best. MrOllie (talk) 23:49, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  So I am supposed to accept your mediocre response that a medical researcher (while there are MANY contributors to this article) and their published and highly referenced meta-analysis is disputed-- based on what exactly? 76.171.132.146 (talk) 00:07, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

  And FYI: a slight effects of a meta-analysis of that size is proof that acupuncture cannot be classified as pseudoscience or quackery. Which is the entire point of this thread. Where is the line where you get to decide the point at which the clear evidence that follows the guidelines of Wikipedia is not good enough for you? 76.171.132.146 (talk) 00:10, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

  Here's another review for you that clearly highlights that acupuncture is a scientifically validated healthcare modality.

  Sun, Yanxia, and Tong J. Gan. "Acupuncture for the management of chronic headache: a systematic review." Anesthesia & Analgesia 107.6 (2008): 2038-2047.

  What is your critique of this systematic review (that does not violate Wikipedia guidelines)? Vickers is unaffiliated with this review so you can't arbitrarily knock the researcher.

  METHODS:

  We searched the databases of Medline (1966–2007), CINAHL, The Cochrane Central Register of Controlled Trials (2006), and Scopus for randomized controlled trials investigating the use of acupuncture for chronic headache. Studies were included in which adults with chronic headache, including migraine, tension-type headache or both, were randomized to receive needling acupuncture treatment or control consisting of sham acupuncture, medication therapy, and other nonpharmacological treatments. We extracted the data on headache intensity, headache frequency, and response rate assessed at early and late follow-up periods.

  RESULTS:

  Thirty-one studies were included in this review. The majority of included trials comparing true acupuncture and sham acupuncture showed a trend in favor of acupuncture. The combined response rate in the acupuncture group was significantly higher compared with sham acupuncture either at the early follow-up period (risk ratio [RR]: 1.19, 95% confidence interval [CI]: 1.08, 1.30) or late follow-up period (RR: 1.22, 95% CI: 1.04, 1.43). Combined data also showed acupuncture was superior to medication therapy for headache intensity (weighted mean difference: −8.54 mm, 95% CI: −15.52, −1.57), headache frequency (standard mean difference: −0.70, 95% CI: −1.38, −0.02), physical function (weighted mean difference: 4.16, 95% CI: 1.33, 6.98), and response rate (RR: 1.49, 95% CI: 1.02, 2.17).

  CONCLUSION:

  Needling acupuncture is superior to sham acupuncture and medication therapy in improving headache intensity, frequency, and response rate. 76.171.132.146 (talk) 00:38, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

  @MrOllie

  I'm waiting for your response... 149.142.80.37 (talk) 06:03, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

  He already said I won't rehash it again. If you can't be arsed to search the archives of this Talk page for "Vickers", you can't expect people to do it for you and copy-paste the reasoning here. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:43, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

  @Hob GadlingI urge you to read more carefully if you are going to contribute. I shared an entirely new meta-analysis, which has no affiliation with Vickers, as further evidence contrary to the misinformation you insist on upholding. 149.142.80.37 (talk) 08:57, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

  Your question to MrOllie was So I am supposed to accept your mediocre response [..] based on what exactly?

  So, you were not waiting for a response to that? How can anybody know that? You expect us to read your thoughts? --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:11, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

  Actually- I'm not sure how your literacy is.. but if you continue to read my response, which are all shared cohesively at once (sans reply)-- since you have decided to throw away a researcher's work (even though it was a paper published by many) I clearly shared a secondary meta-analysis and said it had zero affiliation to Vickers. Now you both are unequipped to.. respond, since it shatters the misguided worldview you are so intent on upholding on this page-- and run into the shadows. Any more trolls lurking in the shadows here or can anyone actually speak science with me? 76.171.132.146 (talk) 18:21, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

  If you post walls of text and expect people to read the whole thing even after they find the first stupid sentence, you must be pretty naive. Instead of copying heaps of text from other sites, it is usual to just give a link. --Hob Gadling (talk) 19:15, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

  Now that you are adding personal attacks to the discussion (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Acupuncture&diff=prev&oldid=1127725482) I do not believe that further replies are a good use of my time. MrOllie (talk) 13:34, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

  @MrOllie How convenient. I share a reputable meta-analysis demonstrating that acupuncture is scientifically validated to be beneficial for headache treatment (more than placebo or medication) and you and @Hob Gadling gang up like a pack of school yard trolls that this page is known to be run by-- and defer from a response (since because you can't refute the science. 76.171.132.146 (talk) 18:18, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

  David Gorski takes that review apart here: Yet another acupuncture meta-analysis: Garbage in, garbage out.

  Why do you ping us all the time then? It seems you want us to comment on what you write. BTW, pinging is pointless in my case, since I have a watchlist and notice the new posts on this page before I notice that someone has pinged me. --Hob Gadling (talk) 19:55, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

  David Gorski- a self-proclaimed skeptic of complementary medicine who even has a wikipedia page that states this? Too biased to consider. How about a published response on a journal, for some credibility. 149.142.80.37 (talk) 20:09, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

  also- are you really going to cite an anti-vaccination proponent and think you will seem in ANY way credible in terms of your sources and ability to synthesize scientific evidence? 149.142.80.37 (talk) 20:25, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

• That is a semantic argument that does not add to the discussion

  It's actually the heart of our policy to attribute opinions and other such labels. An extremely important distinction, which shows the claim is well verified and should remain. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:40, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  I'm still waiting for the evidence that verifies this claim. So far 0 editors have been able to supply me with any, yet all vehemently argue for the continuation of this misinformation. 76.171.132.146 (talk) 23:42, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

New source

• Allen J, Mak SS, Begashaw M, Larkin J, Miake-Lye I, Beroes-Severin J, Olson J, Shekelle PG (November 2022). "Use of Acupuncture for Adult Health Conditions, 2013 to 2021: A Systematic Review". JAMA Netw Open (Systematic review). 5 (11): e2243665. doi:10.1001/jamanetworkopen.2022.43665. PMID 36416820.

TL;DR: there's no good evidence acupuncture is useful for anything. Could usefully be used to freshen the article. Bon courage (talk) 15:08, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 December 2022

Hello, This article seems very out of date. Just because traditions western scientific studies fall short of being able to study acupuncture in a qualitative way doesn't mean its "quackery". The studies also fail to prove it doesn't work. If it were quackery this would be easily evident. Acupuncture is very flexible and that's part in its efficacy. Each person is an individual and acupuncture allows for these unique variations, something which western medicine can't boast. Furthermore, if we want to label medicine quackery, we should include such scientific understanding as how Pharmaceuticals work. Western medicine still can't explain the brain, or how have a way to diagnose many western illness empirically: such as multiple sclerosis, not to mention mental illness. If we are being fair, many things in medicine can't be 100% proven or understood. We only recently discovered that the gut houses part of your mental factions, something that many cultures have a variation of "go with your gut." Thank-you for improving your bias and editing the parts that cannot be proven to be wrong or right. Perhaps someday they will be proven, perhaps not. The point is to argue things with proper logic and understanding. 2607:FEA8:87A5:700:F493:9988:502B:C506 (talk) 22:37, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

It appears your objections have more to do with how wikipedia treats sources (WP:RS and WP:MEDRS) than with how that policy is applied to this article. This talk page is not for that type of conversation, you would want to raise such objections at the applicable policies.— Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 22:41, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

western scientific studies fall short of being able to study acupuncture Nice reframing of "acupuncture falls short of being able to provide evidence of its usefulness".

"I did not fail the test, the test failed me." --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:39, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

A Dutch psychiatrist (I don't remember his name) argued that MDs don't have to know "the causes of mental illness", but only how to properly diagnose and properly treat mental illnesses. That is evidence-based, while talking of the causes of mental illness is idle talk. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:23, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

100%. These are epidemiological phenomena. In medicine, it helps us design treatments to know the underlying mechanisms, but testing and applying treatments does not in any way require this. We often apply treatments before knowing the full extent of their effects. Also worth saying, Acupuncture has no basis of action or known mechanisms, but it also has little to no epidemiological evidence! Because the suggested mechanism involves magical thinking e.g. qi energy points. And the epidemiological studies when properly blinded and controlled, show it has no effect! — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 13:39, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2022

The presentation of this entry fails to provide basic information on the topic. Instead, it reads as a criticism or opposing editorial. The approach is misplaced in a Wikipedia source entry. For example, the entry misrepresents the content of the sources it cites in order to further a perspective. It suggests, without substantiation, that medical journals originating in Korea, China, and Japan are less reliable than "Western" publications. The argumentative quality of the writing generally reflects a screed rather than sober consideration of the topic. For example, the entry heavily relies on a self-described "skeptic", Gorski, who is resident at ... Wayne State?, and cites generally to his work on "quackery," rather than to specific studies on acupuncture that he has conducted (there do not appear to be any such studies). Among other misleading discussion, the discussion of meta statistical analysis fails to link to other Wikipedia entries that explain its methodological use and typical applications, along with shortcomings in error correction. 2600:1004:B18A:1A21:1D9:DA9F:2A42:228D (talk) 07:21, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lots of vague complaints with no specific requests so nothing actionable. May want to see WP:RS and WP:MEDRS and probably WP:NPOV before wading into a topic like this one Cannolis (talk) 07:51, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Here is a source for you. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/1357513

As I mentioned above, this is a meta-analysis from 2012, published by JAMA, lead researcher is from Sloan Kettering, referenced 1221 times since, and only high quality RCT's were used.

"Methods We conducted a systematic review to identify randomized controlled trials (RCTs) of acupuncture for chronic pain in which allocation concealment was determined unambiguously to be adequate. Individual patient data meta-analyses were conducted using data from 29 of 31 eligible RCTs, with a total of 17 922 patients analyzed.

Results In the primary analysis, including all eligible RCTs, acupuncture was superior to both sham and no-acupuncture control for each pain condition (P < .001 for all comparisons). After exclusion of an outlying set of RCTs that strongly favored acupuncture, the effect sizes were similar across pain conditions. Patients receiving acupuncture had less pain, with scores that were 0.23 (95% CI, 0.13-0.33), 0.16 (95% CI, 0.07-0.25), and 0.15 (95% CI, 0.07-0.24) SDs lower than sham controls for back and neck pain, osteoarthritis, and chronic headache, respectively; the effect sizes in comparison to no-acupuncture controls were 0.55 (95% CI, 0.51-0.58), 0.57 (95% CI, 0.50-0.64), and 0.42 (95% CI, 0.37-0.46) SDs. These results were robust to a variety of sensitivity analyses, including those related to publication bias.

Conclusions Acupuncture is effective for the treatment of chronic pain and is therefore a reasonable referral option. Significant differences between true and sham acupuncture indicate that acupuncture is more than a placebo. However, these differences are relatively modest, suggesting that factors in addition to the specific effects of needling are important contributors to the therapeutic effects of acupuncture."

The change X to Y request is to change "Acupuncture is a pseudoscience; the theories and practices of TCM are not based on scientific knowledge, and it has been characterized as quackery." to a-remove all mention of quackery and pseudoscience from this article and b- reflect that acupuncture has been proven effective for treating several conditions, including chronic pain. 76.171.132.146 (talk) 23:59, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

The source is old and out-of-date. Bon courage (talk) 02:04, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

a meta-analysis from 2012 is out of date? that is the most outrageous claim. Please show me where in the Wikipedia guidelines, a literature review must be less than 10 years old to be considered. 149.142.80.37 (talk) 03:42, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

WP:MEDRS#Use_up-to-date_evidence MrOllie (talk) 03:49, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Do you need to brush up on what you shared?

In many topics, a review that was conducted more than five or so years ago will have been superseded by more up-to-date ones, and editors should try to find those newer sources, to determine whether the expert opinion has changed since the older sources were written. The range of reviews you examine should be wide enough to catch at least one full review cycle, containing newer reviews written and published in the light of older ones and of more-recent primary studies.

Assessing reviews may be difficult. While the most-recent reviews include later research results, this does not automatically give more weight to the most recent review (see recentism).

Prefer recent reviews to older primary sources on the same topic. If recent reviews do not mention an older primary source, the older source is dubious. Conversely, an older primary source that is seminal, replicated, and often-cited may be mentioned in the main text in a context established by reviews. 149.142.80.37 (talk) 06:00, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, so it's superseded. We cite a comprehensive 2022 systematic review of systematic reviews. Bottom line: acupuncture doesn't work for nearly everything, which suggests is it useless and that the two things it appeared it might work for are as a result expected[2] statistical freakage (as for homeopathy). Bon courage (talk) 08:30, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

@Bon courageWhat? Acupuncture doesn't work for nearly everything therefore it is classifiable as quackery? If a modality doesn't cure everything it is useless? Who claimed it was a panacea? A Meta-analysis is not something you can write off as "Statistical freakage". Yet again, you are another editor who chooses to flagrantly think you are outside of Wikipedia's guidelines-- are you sure you aren't simply an arbiter of misinformation and bias? Because that is all this discussion is panning out to be. 149.142.80.37 (talk) 09:00, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

also "two things it appeared to work for"?? You mean efficacy in treating chronic pain and headaches are two things you can simply write off and blatantly ignore the scientific literature on because you want to cite a more recent meta-analysis of meta-analyses (and blatantly ignore the guideline om recentism?) The meta-analaysis on headaches demonstrates acupuncture outperforming not only placebo, but medication. Do you know the number of patients whose lives with chronic pain and/or headaches are improved with acupuncture, which the literature upholds? And then you make some horrible disjointed connection to homeopathy? Further demonstrating your bias... we are not discussing homeopathy- we are discussing ACUPUNCTURE. You clearly have a misguided, misinformed overarching conclusion about all complementary medicine so that you can't even penetrate your mind with actual scientific data. Of course you are the type of person to sit behind an alias and potentiate your lack of contribution to the improvement of society. 149.142.80.37 (talk) 09:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia cites up-to-date science. That's not "recentism" but a key aim of WP:MEDRS. It appears from that science the book has now closed firmly on acupuncture: it doesn't seem to work. Separately (and understandably) other sources discuss acupuncture in terms of pseudoscience and quackery. Wikipedia can only relay this knowledge, not change it. Sorry. Bon courage (talk) 10:12, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

I am sorry that you do not know how statistical significance works, and that it generates "statistical freakage" on every level. It is to be expected that something which does not work will generate a certain number of false positives, so, if a knowledgeable person sees tests of lots of stuff, some of which have positive results, that person will not conclude that those are the things that work. Maybe you should read up on that. Start with Texas sharpshooter fallacy. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:18, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

@Bon courage @Hob Gadling "It appears from that scene the book has nos closed firmly on acupuncture: it doesn't seem to work". This comment alone demonstrates that you are ill-equipped to be having this conversation and should defer to experts who are trained to understand research. If the book was closed firmly on acupuncture, and it "didn't seem to work", every major US hospital and insurance company would not be offering acupuncture. There would not be an exponentially growing body of research that continues to validate acupuncture's health benefits, as methods continue to improve. It is much easier to run experiments on a medication when it is taken oral since a placebo is simple to create. Creating a sham acupuncture has been challenging to the methods, which are improving. All scientific signs point to acupuncture being beneficial for pain. I am very well-versed in statistics and statistical significance, all of which these meta-analysis are within. Do you understand what a confidence interval is? These outliers you are speaking of, will get washed away with a meta-analyses. That is the very reason you don't want to rely on a single article's outcomes. I think you both have a lot to read up on. Ironically, I hope you will both one day need to utilize acupuncture because of chronic pain, realize it's benefit, and realize how far up your own "arse" as Hob Godling likes to say.. your heads are. 76.171.132.146 (talk) 18:33, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

@Bon courageand here is an evidence map from 2014 from the VA where they synthesized much of the research. https://www.hsrd.research.va.gov/publications/esp/acupuncture.pdf Their takeaway, was far from acupuncture "does not seem to work" and also nowhere do they insinuate that it is psuedoscientific. You are both simply wrong and arriving at conclusions counter to mainstream medicine. Luckily, nether of you are the gatekeepers to information, and will not win when it comes to this outdated and inaccurate terminology being stricken from this page, I promise you that. For now, you can gloat that you have nothing better to do than to maintain this page's inaccuracies and have Wikipedia share misinformation that every other google search and every other reputable source will take you far away from. 76.171.132.146 (talk) 18:38, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Needless to say, there is no remotely credible evidence linking this to most of the claimed effects, no evidence to account for the fact that studies show acupuncture "works" for some conditions and not for other, similar conditions, no evidence of any persistent effect form such signalling, and good evidence that it does not matter if you stick the needles in or not, including evidence that acupuncture "works" equally well if you stick the needles in a dummy rubber hand instead of the patient's hand. How does purinergic signalling affect "treatment" of stroke, leukopaenia, depression and other things acupuncture is claimed to cure:
— User:JzG

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 18:52, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

I already shared credible evidence. If every major US hospital, and Medicare, and insurance companies and the VA and the WHO and the NIH all conclude that acupuncture IS beneficial for a number of conditions-- you are blatantly disregarding and nullifying the consensus conclusion-- and a proponent for misinformation. Do you know how many studies I can pull up that show that SSRI's are of no benefit or of no more benefit than talk therapy? Could I not make some similar argument such as yours that I'm not going to subscribe to the effect of a medication that could have it's effect demonstrated via SPEAKING to another human? Does the Wikipedia page on SSRI's call those medications quackery or pseudoscientific? I am not advocating that this Wikipedia page states that acupuncture cures depression, or that this entry states that acupuncture is proven to cure anything for that matter. I am requesting that this page is updated to reflect that mainstream medicine and scientific literature have concluded that acupuncture has been shown to be effective for pain conditions. The page can also reflect that overall, the research is inconclusive and that more quality research needs to be done. To say that acupuncture is of no benefit, is characterized as quackery or is a pseudoscience, is blatantly false misinformation, and that is what I am trying to have modified. 149.142.80.37 (talk) 20:22, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

If the book was closed firmly on acupuncture, and it "didn't seem to work", every major US hospital and insurance company would not be offering acupuncture Please meet a few humans and watch their behaviour. Your assumption that they will behave in a rational fashion and follow the evidence is, again, naive.

This is pointless, and it leads nowhere. --Hob Gadling (talk) 19:20, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

your behavior perfectly demonstrates your own point since you refuse to follow the evidence. We are discussing this page on acupuncture reflecting the beliefs of mainstream medicine- not the beliefs of wikipedia editor skeptics who make up their minds and refuse to honor their minds with some plasticity. This wikipedia article does not reflect the conclusions of mainstream medicine regarding the benefits of acupuncture in treating pain conditions. Thus far, you have been unable to demonstrate anything differently, other than citing your one favorite lone wolf skeptic. 149.142.80.37 (talk) 20:14, 16 December 2022 (UTC)