Talk:Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth

Not a group of Engineers and Architects

An english-italian journalist and hoax debunker (Paolo Attivissimo) was listed as an engineer under this group’s list of engineers and architects, when he is neither an architect nor an engineer. He was listed under the name “Massimo dell’Affidabilitá”, italian for “top (maximum) of the credibility” (see picture). His credentials were never verified, and he stayed in that list until he himself admitted that he did this to prove the credibility of this group. Should this get a new section, or under which section could it go? The sources are, of course, in italian.Idonthavetimeforthiscarp 16:45, 21 February 2011 (UTC) edit here's the picture, sorry. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_z78Sur1T1lY/Rv1SkTnbTGI/AAAAAAAAATc/yayFU_vw9nM/s1600-h/max1.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Idonthavetimeforthiscarp (talk • contribs) 16:46, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

There is, of course, the whole "Mike Rotch" story, that i can find nowhere on this article... i guess this will need a separate section then... i'll be working on itIdonthavetimeforthiscarp 16:56, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

How can we be sure this is not a hoax? As far as I see, no reliable source has reported on this. With regard to the list, the current font type looks quite different, so this may be something that has happened several years ago, if it's indeed true.  Cs32en Talk to me  18:58, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

There's an article by the debunker and a saved screenshot, plus independent sources. And the "Mike Rotch" thing was spread through several "truth" movements like Scholars for 9/11 and PatriotsQuestions. I'm writing the part and there are of course sources.Idonthavetimeforthiscarp 20:56, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that you need to use reliable sources, if you intend to add content to the article.  Cs32en Talk to me  21:38, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I would also like to ask if a screenshot of a youtube video like this http://bp2.blogger.com/_ebKDfm0h1oI/SHHhf8AcEVI/AAAAAAAACrQ/h2IgjWjsWyQ/s1600-h/richard-Gage-hardfire-WithBoxes.jpg where Gage explains the physics of the WTC collapse using cardboard boxes is usable, as an example of the scientific methods used by the leader of this movement.Idonthavetimeforthiscarp 21:00, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

The image is of low quality, and the copyright situation is unclear.  Cs32en Talk to me  21:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, i can of course easily get one of higher quality, that was just an example, and a screenshot of a video someone put on youtube and that isn’t about copyrighted content should not have any copyright issue. The original video has no copyright claims, so a picture of it should have no problems.Idonthavetimeforthiscarp 22:04, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit: sorry, I didn’t see the previous comment. Yes, said blog is a blog of a journalist who is writing about matters he’s competent in, has published books etc, and it has been used a reliable source already on WP.Idonthavetimeforthiscarp 22:06, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Criticism and sourcing

First off, per WP:CRIT, having a separate Criticism section is sort of being deprecated in favor of embedding responses within the rest of the prose. But beyond that, Arthur Rubin is correct in that the entire section is poorly sourced: two blogspot posts and the AE911 site? Not good enough, especially for an article that's this contentious. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 14:35, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Citing from the guidelines: "Weblog material written by well-known professional researchers writing within their field, or well-known professional journalists, may be acceptable"

Undicisettembre is a weblog held by a known professional journalist and hoax debunker (Paolo Attivissimo), aided by professionals (engineers, pilots, firefighters, etc, as you can see from the blog description). The journalist in question has a debunking program on swiss radio and published several books regarding hoaxes. He's the main italian speaking journalist on the matter, and is present on the main italian and swiss networks when talking about hoaxes.

I'm therefore reverting your edit, since in this case it's a well-known professional journalist. Also, how is a link to a page of the website belonging to the very association being discussed in the article a problem?

Idonthavetimeforthiscarp 15:27, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Incorporated the section in the article, avoiding a specific "criticisms" section as requested. Since the only source of the claim that these "architects and engineers" are subject to verification comes from the website itself, and since the members have turned out to be fantasy characters in more than one occasion, this explanation is due. It's properly sourced according to guidelines, and a waybackmachine link to a page of the organization itself is present. Please avoid edit warring over properly sourced claims and even a link to the webpage of the organization itself.Idonthavetimeforthiscarp 15:44, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Really? Can you back up that claim of "professional journalist and hoax debunker"? Aside from running a blog, what has this guy done that's notable/reliable enough to qualify him as a reliable source? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 15:58, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

"Well-known professional journalist" does not appear in WP:SPS. Can you (Idonthavetimeforthiscarp) tell me where it appears?

And the fact that the fake name was entered into the site by Attivissimo is WP:SYNTHESIS. You could note that the name was on the site from the archive, but a reliable source has to report it was fake. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:04, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

@Arthur Rubin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_source_examples#Are_weblogs_reliable_sources.3F

Sorry, i maybe mixed up some stuff. The blog entries also claim that it was him to subscribe under that name, i'll add the same source after the waybackmachine link

@HelloAnnyong

well i should look up for recordings of TV programs... if you are interested, he has a radio program on the swiss radio in italian, writes for Wired Italy, has been in several hoax-related tv programs in Italy. He published hoax related books and is currently producing "moonscape", a documentary on the moon landing.

For instance check this link

http://www.poliziadistato.it/poliziamoderna/articolo.php?cod_art=2168

It's the Italian Police (Polizia di Stato) website, and they refer to him regarding hoaxes and precisely 9/11 (bufala, pl. bufale in italian means "hoax/hoaxes"). If you really need it i can dig up all the information, but i am not sure why you are not "assuming good faith".

Idonthavetimeforthiscarp 16:15, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Assuming good faith does not give you carte blanche to add whatever you want to the article, particularly on controversial articles. The RSE article you linked to allows for some "professional researchers", but I'm not sure that this guy qualifies. Anyway, I've opened a thread on RSN about this; you can see it at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Italian hoax debunker on AE9/11?. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 16:41, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

"Hoax debunker" is not a profession. It may be a job, and it may be a way to earn a living. So, WP:SPS does not apply here, and the content needs to be removed.  Cs32en Talk to me  00:25, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I will add back the contents, since i clearly wrote that he is a journalist. Please avoid trying to push some personal agenda on wikipediaIdonthavetimeforthiscarp 16:10, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Idonthavetimeforthiscarp, please refrain from adding content against consensus.  Cs32en Talk to me  14:15, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Claims to Mainstream Consensus Do Not Stand Up to Scrutiny

In the Section 'Advocacy', under '7 World Trade Center', the last paragraph begins 'The community of experts in structural mechanics and structural engineering generally supports the explanation of the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings provided by the investigation conducted by NIST' and a reference is given to a paper by Zdeněk P. Bažant and Mathieu Verdure (2007) which states: "As generally accepted by the community of specialists in structural mechanics and structural engineering (though not by a few outsiders claiming a conspiracy with planted explosives), the failure scenario was as follows [...]". (continues with a four-part scenario of progressive structural failure). However, this bald assertion has no basis in fact. There have been very few peer reviewed scientific papers on the subject of the collapse of any of the three towers on 9/11. Of those few which support the official account, all of them were authored by Zdeněk P. Bažant, together with a handful of collaborators. This does not amount to any kind of consensus. The first such paper was written just two days after the attacks, when evidence was scant and no one could reliably claim to know what had happened: yet the paper by Zdeněk P. Bažant & Yong Zhou claimed exactly that. That first paper was also rushed to publication within 6 months and is most unlikely to have been adequately peer reviewed, if at all. Subsequent papers have been attempts to support the conclusions of the original paper. Furthermore, there have been no peer-reviewed papers whatsoever which claim to explain the collapse of WTC 7 (NIST NCSTAR 1a was not subject to the usual peer-review process).

There is clearly no consensus among 'the community of experts in structural mechanics and structural engineering generally', either in favour of the conclusions of NIST or the alternative controlled demolition hypothesis. Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth are composed of nearly 1,500 such experts but there is no comparable independent body opposing their claims. NIST and FEMA are government agencies and do not represent the scientific community at large.

217.207.157.114 (talk) 14:10, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Per WP:SYN, your theory doesn't belong in the article. Further, I've reverted your other changes, such as changing it to "Some experts" (which is a weasel word) and "it has been claimed". The statements are well sourced, so changing the tone of the article isn't acceptable here. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 15:41, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

That is perhaps the most well-written summary describing a particular significant problem within the article that I have seen written yet. Wikipedia should refrain from making assertions about a worldwide community based on the writings of a single dubious source (Bažant and Verdure). The claim should either be given better sourcing (broader and more well-researched), or removed. I am not aware of any significant research having been conducted by any entity to substantiate that particular claim. Wildbear (talk) 04:54, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the anon's theory has no place in the article, and the assertion that 911AE really has "architects" and "engineers" should be considered unusable, per WP:BLPSELF. However, Wildbear might have a point, except that Bažant and Verdure is not at all a "dubious source". I would ask him to provide a real source with a different opinion about engineering consensus, and that information might also be included in the article. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:59, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

The problem for all perspectives on the issue is that there have been few (or no) professional studies to determine statistically what the "community of specialists in structural mechanics and structural engineering" actually thinks about the issue. I don't question the structural engineering credentials of the authors of the paper. For purposes of this discussion, it is only the "generally accepted" assertion which I intended to have the word "dubious" apply. I used the word "dubious" because the authors didn't provide any information to support the assertion; no references and no indication that any surveys had been conducted. The need for better sourcing, which all would find well substantiated and agreeable, still remains. As has been stated in these pages before, if a claim is truly notable, it shouldn't be difficult to find multiple high-quality sources to support it. Wildbear (talk) 05:22, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I really didn't want to get involved in editing Wikipedia articles, but I now have a proper login, so I can respond to the remarks in this discussion section, which I started. First, I'm baffled as to what is meant by my 'theory'. My attempted ammendments to the article were simply to remove contentious and unproven sweeping generalisations which claimed that a scientific consensus existed, refuting the position of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, when it is very clear that there is no such consensus, whatever a handful of individuals may say. I have not attempted to advance any 'theory' of my own (I don't have one), unless the simple observation that there is no consensus is taken to be a 'theory'! (Perhaps we need to reach a consensus that there is no consensus on whether there is a consensus?).

Just to make it abundantly clear, I refer readers to the discussion of Bažant and Verdure (2007) which appeared in the ASCE Journal of Engineering Mechanics (October 2008). A number of qualified engineers take issue with Bažant's paper and he replies to the criticisms. Whether you regard his replies as being adequate is a matter of opinion, but it is a fact that the paper has attracted critical comment and does not represent a consensus view. There is also a peer reviewed paper which supports the controlled demolition hypothesis, thereby refuting Bažant, published in the Bentham Open Chemical Physics Journal (Harrit et al, 2009): the nine authors are all professional engineers and scientists. In view of these facts, the contention that Bažant represents a consensus view is outrageous nonsense. I do not denigrate Bažant's contributions, but his is only one view among many. However, I do find it extraordinary that the main article makes no mention whatsoever of the paper by Harrit et al: Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe.

My own view (as an applied mathematician with numerous publications in peer reviewed international journals) is that Bažant has presented an interesting but inconclusive mathematical model attempting to account for the dynamics of the collapse of the twin towers. Like any mathematical model, its fit with reality depends crucially on the parameters provided to the model. Bažant has not adequately justified the values of these parameters or every aspect of his model, in my opinion or the opinion of several other qualified commentators. His model remains interesting, but its plausibility as a true account of the collapse of the twin towers remains in dispute within the scientific community. For comparison, one may create a mathematical model of a unicorn, but this does not prove that unicorns exist.

What is not in dispute (one of the few facts on which there is now a general consensus) is that the collapse of WTC 7 proceeded at free fall acceleration for over 2 seconds after onset (this is admitted in the final NIST report). This may explain why there are no peer reviewed papers whatsoever which even attempt to account for the collapse of this building. Bažant's model is utterly incapable of accounting for this and he has never attempted to apply it to WTC 7. The official NIST report originally rejected the free fall claim in its initial draft, but the final report was forced to acknowledge the truth of this fact following criticism of erroneous calculations in the draft.

In summary, I have shown that there is no consensus among the general scientific or engineering community regarding the mechanism of collapse of any of the three towers destroyed on 9/11. The official reports are disputed, as are the very few peer reviewed scientific papers on the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonmi 451 (talk • contribs) 15:55, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Sonmi 451 brings up some good points. We need to keep in mind that Bazant's first paper was what is called a "rapid communication" and was described by it's own authors as a simplified approximate analysis...[which] may be in error by a level of magnitude. The paper has been updated four times since it's publication due to problems other engineers had with his analysis. Also, Bazant is not peer reviewed in the way editors here believe, the peer review was limited to the mathematics Bazant uses, not the analysis itself. His maths do work but he often uses the wrong equations. For example he uses load safety parameters for a standard highrise in 1968 rather than the over engineered specs the WTC used which can result in significant errors (I have not read the latest version so this may have been corrected). The only way to prove Bazant's theory (or NIST's conclusions) is to document and analyse the debris field, but unfortunately NIST allowed the debris to be cleared so Bazant's paper remains only a theory, not a proven fact. Wayne (talk) 06:39, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

As Sonmi 451 is a new editor I will remind him that the 9/11 articles are not edited by academics and as editors must not allow edits, even if factual or relevant, that give credibility to conspiracy theories, the phraseology tends to be beyond what sources support. As wording is determined by consensus such problems unfortunately are common and hard to correct. Wayne (talk) 06:58, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

The statement should remain. It is well sourced to experts in the field, and published by a mainstream journal. There is no reliable source counteracting this claim. Polequant (talk) 12:44, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

so many issues, so much time

This article is a mess. Rather than an informative article on the nature of this organization, I come upon an incoherent collection of badly strewn together sources, many of then tangentially related to the topic or mere mentions, many others primary sources. It presents the organization out of context and without a deeper exploration of its reasons to exists. It has too much sources that make it hard to read, but an examination of sources demonstrates that they are tangential or borderline original research, at times even synthetic - some are even presented as supportive when they are critical. There is some peacocking going on etc.

Perhaps the worse offending area is "advocacy", which either duplicates information elsewhere available, unneeded as there is plenty to wikilink to, or coatracks positions that are not notable or relevant in other articles to mention them here. While an encyclopedic overview of the focus of any organization is what we are for, this focus should be made in a way that is encyclopedic, and recognizes the fact that it is a web-available, not paper, encyclopedia, and in a way that doesn't comprise our integrity as an NPOV endeavor. Coatracking is gaming the consensus system to include information that would be harder to include in other articles. We shouldn't allow it. --Cerejota (talk) 23:32, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

The article on PETA duplicates a lot of information that can be found in Animal rights movement, which duplicates information of Animal rights. The sections titled "Advocacy" describes the positions taken by the group. As it is one of the larger and more prominent groups within the 9/11 truth movement, it is not surprising that some of these positions are also described on that page, as well as in the articles 9/11 conspiracy theories and World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories.  Cs32en Talk to me  23:20, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh so because other articles are possibly a mess (I haven't checked) it means this one too has to be a mess? I find that argument unconvincing.--Cerejota (talk) 23:29, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for NOT checking the other articles ;-) The articles are not a mess. Having some information included in more than one article is a common and accepted situation on Wikipedia. In addition, I would suggest that you point out which particular content is duplicated, in your view. You are very likely overestimating the amount of such content.  Cs32en Talk to me  22:16, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

I did an edit and removed those templates, but you reverted it. I have restored them. If you restore the previous version, the templates remain. This article shouldn't extensively discuss the different claims this organization makes, just provide an overview of them. I am also restoring tags that still remain as issues.--Cerejota (talk) 23:19, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Cerejota on many some of the detailed changes, but ze shouldn't re-make major revisions without consensus. (For example, the fact that "the mainstream scientific and engineering community has generally ridiculed rejected the position taken by the group" should be in the lede.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:42, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Ther eis no need for consensus for tags. I tagged and explained the tags. Cs32en questioned the tags, so I fixed the issues the tags addressed. He doesn't like the changes, so he reverts. But doesn't revert the tags. This is either/or: either we fix the problems, or we tag the problems, but the problems are there.--Cerejota (talk) 17:04, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Apparently, my editing doesn't make it obvious to Cs32en what the issues are, so I have to turn them into a puree and spoon-feed them to him like baby food:

1. The section duplicates information available on the other 9/11 conspiracy articles, in particular the specific theories this groups puts forward are explained (and attributed) there. There is no need to go into those details here, as the much simpler version I edited shows, it makes for a succinct, NPOV presentation of the groups goals, and prominently links to the appropriate articles on the topic. The goal of this article is to show what this organization is about, not provide it with a platform for its advocacy (aka WP:COATRACK). What they advocate is indeed notable, but belongs in the article about those things.
2. I tagged the section with info on the founder with a disputed tag, as it reads like a hagiography of the subject. It should be re-written to a neutral or should be tagged.
3. The aritcle in general needs a lot of cleaning up, for example, Gage is mentioned too much for an article on the group.
4. Criticism of the group, beyond of general criticism of what the group supports, is lacking. I can live with the general for now, but this article is not about the general stuff. This is also a duplication issue.

In general, if you look at my edit, you will see why it is a way improved version of the article, succinct, balanced, informational, and encyclopedic. THe original version was a messy coat rack with no direction and a wall-of-text feeling.--Cerejota (talk) 18:40, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I have notified Cerejota of the Arbitration Enforcement decision concerning articles in the September 11 attacks area. [1] I hope that Cerejota will reflect on his conduct, and, as a result, will revert his bold edit. Cerejota may of course add a reasonable amount of appropriate tags to the article. I'm fully willing to participate in a discussion about the arguments brought forward by Cerejota, in accordance with the established practice of WP:BRD. This implies, however, that any bold edits are reverted before the discussion takes place. BRD is neither B-D nor B-R-R-D.  Cs32en Talk to me  19:10, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Cs32en is tossing the baby with the bath water. Some of the edits by Cerejota are just fine. Edit warring over everything (instead of working with the edit) and opening an AE instead of discussing particulars are exactly what you shouldn't be doing. Dispute resolution is pretty much impossible when jumping straight to AE.Cptnono (talk) 19:35, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Some of Cerejota's edits may indeed be fine. However, blanking large parts of the article is not the appropriate way to discuss these changes. And BRD says that a discussion takes place after restoring the status quo ante, while Cerejota claims that he does not need to obtain consensus for his edits to take effect immediately. The fact that Cerejota may have a point with regard to some of the concerns that he expresses does not give him the right to ignore our policies and guidelines.  Cs32en Talk to me  19:41, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

As this graphic flowchart shows, the previous consensus is simply the starting point of a BRD cycle, which is generally not gone back to in a BRD cycle. In this particular case, defending the previous consensus without any argument is breaking the BRD process. Cs32en is keeping us from improving the encyclopedia while refusing to participate in a discussion of substance of the content (in fact, even saying the edits are correct!). Since consensus can change, Cs32n is creating a bureaucratic encumberment to improvement, choosing to play deaf.--Cerejota (talk) 21:14, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Focus on the content, not the editor. I have stated the reasons for the edit, in different ways and depths, yet all you have are empty protests and WP:DTTR overload. Also, I question your characterization as "blanking". Blanking is total removal of material, something I have not done - I suggest you strike that through as a show of good faith, pruning to address specific COATRACK issue is not blanking, under any definition of the word. Also, BRD doesn't say anything about status quo ante, as I will illustrate. Now, again, do you have anything of substance to comment about the edits? Or is your objection solely based on you not liking how the edit was done? --Cerejota (talk) 21:14, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Cerejota, both WP:BRD and the very chart that you have posted here are clear and unambiguous about the issue: If your bold edit is being reverted, then you should take the issue to the talk page. This does not mean: "If your bold edit is being reverted, then re-revert and then take it to the talk page." I will address the content related issues as soon as you agree to follow the guidelines that apply to the situation at hand.  Cs32en Talk to me  21:45, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

A note on the content of Cerejota's proposals: The issues that you, Cerejota, are bringing up have been discussed already on this talk page (#1, #3, and #4 explicitly, and #2 implicitly, as part of discussions that focused on other issues), and the consensus that emerged from these discussions is that the article conforms with the respective policies and guidelines. Of course, as you correctly say, consensus may change, and of course things may have been overlooked by the editors who have discussed here on this page. You, however, would have to achieve a new consensus to make the changes to the article that you are trying to achieve.  Cs32en Talk to me  21:55, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps it is a language thing, english not being our primary language, but to me "If your bold edit is being reverted, then you should take the issue to the talk" in particular "being reverted" does implies multiple reversions. In any case, before putting the edits, I explained then in the talk page. You are still not providing any substantive commentary, and the only editor reverting me is yourself. I suggest you provide a better explanation than "that's the way it always has been". Also, you have a serious misunderstanding about BRD that you should seek uninvolved help in fixing. In particular, read WP:BOLD itself. --Cerejota (talk) 02:00, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

If you have nothing of substance to say about the edit, why not leave it there, and see if some other editor reverts it and explains the reversion? That is how consensus changes, generally.--Cerejota (talk) 02:06, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

"If your bold edit is being reverted" means that the edit is being reverted once. It does not mean that the edit is being reverted and then restored. I'm at a loss as to why this may be unclear to you.  Cs32en Talk to me  18:15, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I've reverted Cerejota's edit in large part, while retaining some very minor fixes and the tags until some agreement over how to deal with issues raised can be forged. I think there may be some unnecessary internal duplication, but it doesn't warrant the slash and burn those edits represented. Tiamut^talk 19:41, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

This is just delaying the inevitable. I have tagged the sections again with the issues. This approach is not productive: the section basically repeats in detail what two other articles cover, and does so in a manner not consistent with the inclusion of this information elsewhere. It needs to be shortened (not necessarily the version I proposed, but certainly something in that style) to simply provide and overview (not a detailed view) of the positions this organization has. These views are not unique to the organization, so there is no need to explain them in detail - that is basically a coatrack. What I am seeing is a hilarious situation were editors say they agree with the edits but are reverting brcuase it is "too radical a cut" - that makes absolutely no sense to me, either we improve the encyclopedia, or we don't, and if my edit improves the encyclopedia, no matter how radical, it should be done. That's how the join rolls...--Cerejota (talk) 20:02, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

• Notice: In an arbitration enforcement decision, Cerejota has been warned not to engage in edit wars on this page.  Cs32en Talk to me  10:42, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Sources that might help expand article

• RIBA comes under fire for hosting ‘bonkers’ 9/11 talk
• 'This is my destiny': How one man gave up everything—his family, his friends, his job—to spread the Truth about 9/11
• Architects, engineers take 9/11 concerns to Congress Tiamut^talk 17:35, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

RfC: Advocacy section at Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth

After a period of discussion, no one has objected to a new version of the "advocacy" section on substantive grounds, only allegations that the change is too radical from previous consensus. Since consensus can change this is attempt to break the unproductive stalemate and engage substantive debate rather than WP:OWNy argument. Is the current version or the proposed version better?--Cerejota (talk) 23:04, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

This is the proposed version:

“

Advocacy

See also: World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories and Collapse of the World Trade Center § Investigations

Template:Image Members of the organization argue that the buildings of the World Trade Center could not have collapsed only because of the impact of the planes, or as a result of the fires that had been caused by them, and claim to have identified evidence pointing to an explosive demolition of the World Trade Center buildings. The group does not blame any particular individuals or organizations for the September 11 attacks, and Gage stated that avoiding speculation on the attacks on the Pentagon or on the involvement of the Bush administration was critical to the mission of the organization. However, Gage also said that, if the destruction of the World Trade Center was the result of a controlled demolition, this would mean that part of what happened on September 11, 2001, would have been planned by "some sort of an inside group". According to Gage, an elevator modernization program that had taken place before the attacks would have provided an opportunity to get access to the core areas of the WTC towers without creating suspicion.

After the publication of the results of NIST's inquiry into the collapse of 7 WTC, Gage called a news conference, and leaders of the group dismissed NIST's investigation as flawed. When told of the claims, Shyam Sunder, lead investigator from NIST, responded: "I am really not a psychologist. Our job was to come up with the best science." A spokesperson for NIST said the agency's computer models were highly reliable in assessing the amount of fireproofing dislodged, a factor that would not be present in other steel buildings cited by Gage.

The mainstream scientific and engineering community has generally rejected the position taken by the group. In 2005, a report from the National Institute of Standards and Technology concluded that the destruction of the World Trade Center towers was initiated by a "progressive collapse" caused by the jet impacts and the resultant fires. A 2008 NIST report described a similar progressive collapse as the cause of the destruction of the third tallest building located at the World Trade Center site, the 7 WTC. Many mainstream scientists choose not to debate proponents of 9/11 conspiracy theories, saying they do not want to lend them unwarranted credibility.

”

Comments

• Obviously support this version, as per my reasons already stated.--Cerejota (talk) 01:50, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Cerejota's proposed change represents a major deletion of sourced material. The article, including the content of this section, has been discussed multiple times at this talk page, and the consensus that has emerged from these discussions does not support the large changes that Cerejota intends to make. Minor changes have been done all the time, and I would encourage Cerejota to focus on more specific revisions, instead of proposing outright deletion of large parts of the text.  Cs32en Talk to me  10:31, 3 September 2011 (UTC)