Talk:Azerbaijan (toponym)

Discussion

I was thinking, should a section be added which also discusses the significant historical and cultural differences between Azerbaijan and Aran. The people of the Republic of "Azerbaijan" were always referred to as Caucasian Tatars, which basically means Turkic-speaking Caucasians. Migboy123 (talk) 01:39, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I did not know that 'always' means the peiod of the Russian Empire. Thank you. 213.172.93.89 (talk) 12:37, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree with you.--Abutalub (talk) 23:17, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

The statement "The region in the north of the Aras River, which is today called the Republic of Azerbaijan, had not been included within the geographical boundaries of Azerbaijan until 1918" is simply not true. I added the section from 17th century Chardin's work which goes into detail about the borders of the province and even its etymology, etc. However, it is reverted. I wonder why? Isn't he as reliable as any other historic source quoted in here? Many wiki article cites Chardin's book, so how come it's a problem in here? Zülfü E.Fərəcli (talk) 22:04, 13 May 2021 (UTC)Zulfu

As I said before, please take a look at WP:PRIMARY SOURCES, as well as WP:UNDUE. That other articles cites Chardin's work is irrelevant and in another context. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:40, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Chardin's statement was absolutely relevant and within context. 213.172.93.89 (talk) 12:34, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

You want to say that the 17 th century's Chardin received a bribe from Azerbaijan and can not be considered as independent? Whom should I trust? You or the historical document? 213.172.93.89 (talk) 12:36, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Aran?

Isn't Aran with two rr's? --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:52, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition

https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/encyclopaedia-of-islam-2/*-SIM_0736

The article "Arrān" says:

"By the 15th century A.D. the name Arrān was not in common parlance, for the territory was absorbed into Ād̲h̲arbāyd̲j̲ān."

If it is an reliable source, then add the correct text in the appropriate section. V.N.Ali;--12:43, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Jean Chardin into Persia and the East Indies : the first volume, containing the author's voyage from Paris to Ispahan : to which is added, the coronation of this present king of Persia, Solyman the Third

Jean Chardin's book from 1686 clearly states borders of the territory called Azerbaijan. "The region in the north of the Aras River, which is today called the Republic of Azerbaijan, had not been included within the geographical boundaries of Azerbaijan until 1918. Historians and geographers usually referred to the region north of the Aras River as Aran."

Provided source is not unreliable and referring to the primary source supported by valid references. This already enough to claim that some historically Azerbaijan referred only to the south of the Aras River by some sources, but other sources referred to it as both south and north of the Aras River.

Moreover, another source(https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/encyclopaedia-of-islam-2/*-SIM_0736) also confirms what Jean Chardin wrote: "By the 15th century A.D. the name Arrān was not in common parlance, for the territory was absorbed into Ād̲h̲arbāyd̲j̲ān." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abrvagl (talk • contribs) 17:06, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Can --HistoryofIran provide valid justification on why crucial part of the information, which confirmed with the primary sources, should be missing from the article? This dispute definitely should be escalated further.

Wikipedia is written using reliable, secondary sources (per WP:RS). Chardin is a WP:PRIMARY source, written in the 17th century. You are deliberately trying to shove this primary source into this article in order to nullify and weaken the WP:SECONDARY sources (i.e. WP:RSPRIMARY). This constitutes WP:TENDENTIOUS editing. I am well aware that there is a long-standing campaign going on at "certain" YouTube, FaceBook and Reddit subsections in order to overhaul Wikipedia according to certain state-funded negationist nonsense (Historical_negationism#Azerbaijan, Media freedom in Azerbaijan, Human rights in Azerbaijan). It will never succeed, however, as long as free academic writing exists in this world. Consider this a final warning. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:09, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

The Enc. of Islam source also doesn't cover what you are trying to add. Being "absorbed into" the OG Azerbaijan doesn't equal to "there was a region of Azerbaijan to the north of the Aras River". - LouisAragon (talk) 17:13, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Hoax. Wikipedia can also use the primary sources such as historical evidence. I would ratherr trust the 17th century Chardin than you. 213.172.93.89 (talk) 12:39, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Your comments on the media freedom are irrelevant. And I am not sure that the 17th century Chardin received bribe from the Azerbaijani Qizilbash state in order to write what he wrote. 213.172.93.89 (talk) 12:42, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Free academic writing does not imply fake historical statements. 213.172.93.89 (talk) 12:42, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

It is especially ridiculous how a (pro-)Iranian user, teaches us democracy here 213.172.93.89 (talk) 12:53, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

LouisAragon Please stop. Your approach sound biased, aggressive and hatred to me. You jumping straight into accusations which are your personal opinion, not justified and neither helping us to reach the consensus. Therefore hereby I informing you that I do not accept your warning. For sure you can ignore discussion and just use your power to restrict/block my account, but I want to remind you that it will be considered as abuse of the power and I will follow up it with responsible parties.

Now back to the topic:

1. WP:RSPRIMARY Jean Chardin stated: Azerbaijan, province of Persia, borders to the East upon the Caspian Sea, and Hyrcania; to the South upon the province of Parthians; to the West upon the River Araxes, and Upper Armenia, and to the North upon Dagestan. (https://archive.org/details/travelsofsirjohn00char/page/348)

2. WP:SECONDARYEncyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition, Edited by: P. Bearman, Th. Bianquis, C.E. Bosworth, E. van Donzel, W.P. Heinrichs. First print edition: ISBN: 9789004161214, 1960-2007 (http://dx.doi.org/10.1163/1573-3912_islam_SIM_0736) states: The Arrān is usually applied in Islamic times to the district in Transcaucasia between the Kur (Kura) and Aras (Araks) Rivers. In pre-Islamic times, however, the term was used for all of eastern Transcaucasia (present Soviet Azerbaijan), i.e. Classical Albania (cf. article “Albania” in Pauly-Wissowa). By the 15th century A.D. the name Arrān was not in common parlance, for the territory was absorbed into Ād̲h̲arbāyd̲j̲ān.

Both WP:RSPRIMARY and WP:SECONDARY sources which I provided clearly state borders of territory called Azerbaijan at some point of the time and confirms that in Early Modern Era territories North of the Araks River were also called Azerbaijan. Moreover, the sources provide information in an precise form that leaves no room for an ambiguous understanding of what is written.

Obviously, history is not an exact science. It is expected that different sources (both primary and secondary) may have contradictions. However, let's treat each other with respect and continue discussion. With all respect to the sources already reflected in the article, I suggest including information from the sources cited above in the article together with existing ones. Thus, the article will be more versatile and will include information from all reliable sources. Now the article is one-sided and not complete.

Dear LouisAragon and HistoryofIran please provide valid justification of why you consider above sources not valid or liable, and why it should not be reflected in the article, or lets reach consensus that they will be included into the article and agree on the way HOW they will be included and illustrated in the article.

p.s. I want to apologize if I did something incorrectly. It is my first time in the Wikipedia as editor and I never had such experience before. So I alwsays ready to hear your advises (may be I edidtet article wrongly or wording was not correct? I do not know.

Pretty rich of you accusing someone of being biased, when you outright removed information supported by multiple high quality sources because it didn't fit your view, instead adding a primary source as well as your own commentary to it [1]. If you continue to disregard WP:RS and WP:UNDUE (and other guidelines) then you will be reported to WP:ANI. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:45, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Article does not reflect full picture.

Below statement on the article is does not reflect full picture.

Article states: The region in the north of the Aras River, which is today called the Republic of Azerbaijan, had not been included within the geographical boundaries of Azerbaijan until 1918.

Statement claims that "The region in the north of the Aras River had not been included within the geographical boundaries of Azerbaijan until 1918." However there both WP:RSPRIMARY and WP:SECONDARY sources which confirms that Early Modern Era toponym Azerbaijan used to call territories both south and north of the Aras River.

For example: 1. WP:RSPRIMARY Jean Chardin stated: Azerbaijan, province of Persia, borders to the East upon the Caspian Sea, and Hyrcania; to the South upon the province of Parthians; to the West upon the River Araxes, and Upper Armenia, and to the North upon Dagestan. (https://archive.org/details/travelsofsirjohn00char/page/348)

2. WP:SECONDARY Encyclopaedia of Islam, Second Edition, Edited by: P. Bearman, Th. Bianquis, C.E. Bosworth, E. van Donzel, W.P. Heinrichs. First print edition: ISBN: 9789004161214, 1960-2007 (http://dx.doi.org/10.1163/1573-3912_islam_SIM_0736) states: The Arrān is usually applied in Islamic times to the district in Transcaucasia between the Kur (Kura) and Aras (Araks) Rivers. In pre-Islamic times, however, the term was used for all of eastern Transcaucasia (present Soviet Azerbaijan), i.e. Classical Albania (cf. article “Albania” in Pauly-Wissowa). By the 15th century A.D. the name Arrān was not in common parlance, for the territory was absorbed into Ād̲h̲arbāyd̲j̲ān.

Proposal: Provided WP:RSPRIMARY and WP:SECONDARY sources should be considered. Statement should be rephrased as "The region in the north of the Aras River had not been included within the geographical boundaries of Azerbaijan until Early Modern Era."

Moreover, this will change whole philosophy of the Article which is build on the idea that territories north of Aras River never called Azerbaijan and was changed only in 1918, where in reality there are sources proving opposite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abrvagl (talk • contribs) 07:25, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Grandmaster and Kevo327, would you mind to provide your neutral point of view on this dispute? Thanks in advance! --Abrvagl (talk) 10:04, 4 February 2022 (UTC)