Talk:Billy Tipton/Archive 1

admitted to previously knowing

I removed the sentence "None of his adopted sons, ex-wives, associates or band members have admitted to previously knowing the gender assigned to him at birth." Firstly, the word "admitted" is inappropriate -- readers could think Wikipedia is saying that some of them probably did know but just haven't told anyone they knew. Secondly, the whole sentence is redundant because one paragraph earlier the article states "Only his parents, brother, and cousins knew he had been born female.". --Mathew5000 11:28, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Gender pronouns

I'm planning, as I rewrite, to alter the 'he' pronouns to 'she' in referring to Tipton. While I agree that biographies of transsexual people should use the gender pronoun appropriate to the gender the person presents him or herself as, Tipton's biographer makes a strong argument that Tipton was not transgendered, but identified herself as female while making a choice to live as male because it was advantageous to her career.

If you disagree, I'm willing to discuss it- if Tipton really was transgendered and considered herself male, then the pronouns should be changed, but I'm not convinced this was the case. -FisherQueen (Talk) 20:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying out the approach of switching gender within the article depending on whether Tipton, at that time, was presenting herself as male or female. I'm not sure how well it's going to work. -FisherQueen (Talk) 19:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Tipton was a female, always knew was a female and was not transgendered or a lesbian, only a male for public persona. All pronouns should be female. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eedo Bee (talk • contribs) 08:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

Well, I think it's reasonable to call her a lesbian at least, since she was married to five women and, as far as I've been able to find in my research, never had a romantic relationship with a man. I've found different opinions about whether or not s/he was transgendered in my research... I have the Middlebrook biography on hold at the library, and I'm hoping to get some better insight into the question when I've had a chance to read it. At any rate, it seems to me to be more than a public persona, since she continued it into her private life and even long after she retired from music- in fact, she seems to have died at least in part because she didn't want anyone to know she was female. I don't think that the situation is quite as obvious as your comment indicates. -FisherQueen (Talk) 11:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Please read what the issue is. This is about pronouns; her supposed lesbianism is irrelevant to this section. Andrea Dworkin, masculine as she is, is a prominent lesbian yet she is still referred to as "she". Espouse your politics elsewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eedo Bee (talk • contribs)

If he presented himself as male in his personal life, and there's no clear evidence that he didn't actually identify as male, then it's original research for anyone to claim that he identified as a woman based on their own personal impression. For that reason, the article should follow the standard of using the correct pronouns for people with transsexuality (in this case, "he"). It would be okay, of course, and probably even a good idea, to create a section (being careful to remain NPOV on the issue!) explaining why there's some question as to whether he identified as a man or only pretended to for various reasons. --Icarus ^(Hi!) 01:22, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Early life

This section is very confusing, as the article does not make clear anything related to gender.

“ Tipton was born as Dorothy Lucille Tipton in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, USA. He grew up in Kansas City, Missouri, where he was raised by an aunt after her parents' divorce. After the divorce, he rarely saw her father, G.W. Tipton, a pilot who sometimes took him for airplane rides. As a high school student, Tipton became interested in music, especially jazz. He went by the nickname "Tippy." He studied piano and saxophone, but school policies forbade girls to play in the school band, until Tipton returned for a senior year in Oklahoma and finally joined a band there. ”

A notably odd sentence is "After the divorce, he rarely saw her father, G.W. Tipton."

I would suggest that, if Tipton was raised as a girl, the pronouns for "Early life" be female. It would especially make sense considering the next section reads,

“ In 1933, Tipton began dressing like a man, which allowed her to blend with the other members of the jazz bands she played with in small Oklahoma bars. As she began a more serious music career, she decided to adopt a male persona, calling herself by her father's nickname, Billy, and presenting herself consistently as male. ”

— Emiellaiendiay 00:27, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. Your pronoun suggestion is indeed how I had written that paragraph; an IP editor came through today and changed the shes to hes even in Tipton's earliest days, and I missed a section when reverting the changes. I hope the current version is more readable. -FisherQueen (Talk) 02:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

It is consider bad taste to refer to anyone by pronouns other than what they prefer, even when discussing their past. People don't "change gender." They correct their bodies to match their gender. A transsexual has the internal reality of their preferred gender all life long since birth. If someone was wrongly given a female name, that doesn't make them less masculine. Such persons being raised according to sex that does not match their gender is cruel enough. But wanting to abuse such a person by referring to this with female pronouns is even worse. One's body may have once been wrong, but a person's inner sense of gender is nearly always correct. Gender is far more important than a person's sex. Listen, if someone ever refers to me in print with the wrong pronouns, I'll sue them if I'm alive and hope people riot if I'm dead. I've always been a girl inside, and to say my gender (brain wiring) is other than feminine is tantamount to slander. --24.167.191.111 03:55, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

But in this particular case, it's very difficult to say whether or not Billy Tipton saw himself this way. If it could be established that he did, then the pronouns should be changed. But reading the available sources, it seems that Billy saw himself as female, and presented himself as female, until his twenties. It's difficult to say, from what we know about him, whether he presented himself as male because he was transgendered, because he was a lesbian who found it useful, or simply for the sake of furthering his career, and he never spoke or wrote on the matter, so it's difficult to establish what he preferred. If you're aware of better sources than the Middlebrook biography, which doesn't clearly establish Tipton as a transgendered man, then I'd love to read them, both to improve the article and because I really find Tipton fascinating. -FisherQueen (Talk) 06:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

To User 24.167.191.111, please read Wikipedia:No legal threats. --Mathew5000 06:18, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

For the record, I didn't interpret that as a legal threat; the anon wasn't threatening to sue Wikipedia over the pronouns in this article, but was emphasizing how important correct pronoun use is to her. At least, I think that's what she intended. -FisherQueen (Talk) 06:21, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

On the tag removal

This article certainly seems to fall within the area of interest of WikiProject LGBT studies. Can you explain why you removed the tag indicating such? -FisherQueen (Talk) 12:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Because it doesn't fall in LGBT studies. Billy Tipton was not gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender. She pretended to be male for the sole reason of pursuing her career. This has no connection with sexuality. It is for this reason that LGBT studies are irrelevant, and the tag ought to be removed. To leave it there might give notion to ambiguity to Tipton's sexuality, which was straight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eedo Bee (talk • contribs)

Straight? I don't see how someone whose primary romantic relationships were all with women could be interepreted as straight. Have you read resources I haven't discovered yet? Can you point me toward them? Please, I'm asking you to leave the project tag in place until you've produced some evidence to support your position. -FisherQueen (Talk) 11:32, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

They were not sexual relationships. Her wives did not know she was a woman, but a man with broken ribs and deformed genetalia. Hardly seems as though she was a lesbian at all. My position is that it is not an LGBT issue. My position is that it's an article on a Jazz Musician who fooled her common law wives. The LGBT issue is plastered around on far to many articles. http://www.rotten.com/library/hoaxes/male-impersonators/billy-tipton/ Uncouth website I know, but have a look. Billy Tipton was not a lesbian, transgender, gay or bi. She was a straight musician. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eedo Bee (talk • contribs)

There's nothing in there indicating that she didn't have a sexual relationship with her wives. It just says that her wives believed her to be male but with damaged genitals. That's a strong argument that her wives were straight, but not that Tipton herself was. -FisherQueen (Talk) 12:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

So then should we say she used deceptive methods of rape? There is nothing to say she DID have sexual relationships with her wives, who were wives only because of common law. There was no actual ceremony. You are forgetting that she was a female, and informer her wives that she was male. What you are saying something that you have no evidence for, and the evidence points to the contrary. Following your logic, we could assume Billy Tipton was a a terrorist because it does not say anywhere that she was not a terrorist. A simple hunch on your part does not warrant encylopeadic content. Eedo Bee 12:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly, I have found at least one source specifically indicating that she did have a sexual relationship with at least some of the women with whom she was involved. I'm picking up the biography at the library tonight, which I'm hoping to rely on for more in-depth information. -FisherQueen (Talk) 12:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

IIRC correctly, some of the wives remembered being penetrated, so he probably used accessories for lovemaking - Skysmith 13:09, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

This looks like a simple lack of understanding about the nature of Transgender issues which includes cross dressing and gender identity issues. Billy Tipton lived as a man in his private life as well as his professional life. This content clearly falls under the scope of LGBT studies and is quite appropriate to be tagged. Agne 12:18, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Billy Tipton knew she was a female, there was no psychological identity crisis. Eedo Bee 12:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

You seem to assume a lot about her psychology and her motivation. I really don't think we can get far in that regard. The only thing you can take at face value is a person's action and the actions of Billy Tipton is consistent with Transgender issues. A common misconception is that transgender people are to be typecasted as gay or desiring a sex change. That is not always the case. A person can be a straight woman living as man to further her career and still be transgendered. It is an element of gender identity--even the concept that your gender is a career tool. Agne 12:29, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

From Middlebrook's biography of Tipton:

"Kitty was only the last woman in Billy's life to be called Mrs. Tipton -- the last of at least five. At least one of these women knew that Billy was a woman; at least two of them made love with Billy for years thinking that Billy was a man." (p. 10)

"we can assume that after she separated from June, being Billy full-time solved the psychological and social difficulties presented by Dorothy's strong masculine gender identification and her sexual desire for women, quite apart from solving the problem of achieving professional status in a man's world. Billy wanted to be happy, and for Billy it was easier to be happy as a man than as a lesbian. Confiding in sexual partners became both unwise and unnecessary." (p. 138)

See also pages 199-201 where the biographer specifically discusses sex with one of Tipton's exes. Anyone can confirm this using Amazon's search within a book feature; it's ISBN 0-395-95789-3. —Celithemis 13:29, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Image use

I haven't tried to navigate the image use policy before, so I'd welcome advice. I used an album cover and what Tipton's biographer identifies as a publicity photo, which, if I understand the policy correctly, should be fair use? If I've messed it up, though, I'd love some advice on how to include photos of someone who is dead and thus unavailable to go take a picture of. -FisherQueen (Talk) 12:29, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The top image of Tipton at the piano is fine, and tagged appropriately. You might want to make an info box for him, though. The second image is a violation of fair use, in that it is a record cover, but you don't discuss the record in the area the image illustrates. If you can find any information about that recording (was it particularly notable?), then you can use that image. Otherwise, you'll need to find another image. Jeffpw 09:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad the top image is okay, because that's the one I really want in the article. I discuss the record a LITTLE bit in the paragraph next to the album cover, but I'll see if I can beef up the information about the album, and if I can't, I'll remove the album cover image.

I hadn't even thought about an infobox. That's a great idea. I've just realized that my referencing doesn't look anything like that in sample Good and Featured articles, so another thing on my to-do list involves figuring out the appropriate referencing system and changing the article to use it. I doubt I'll be able to get it all done before my Jumpaclass deadline, but I'll keep going after that date passes at least to do those things. -FisherQueen (Talk) 10:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

you silly goose! I just compared versions, and you've already JumpedAclass! If you want some help improving it (removing the external jumps in the article so they are actual refs, expanding the refs, ect), feel free to ask. But you have made it a B articls now, and if you continue, I'm afraid we'll have to Peer Review it and nominate it for GA. Jeffpw 10:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, there's no point in stopping while I still see things I can do to make it better, is there? I'm glad to hear it made the B- that was my goal- but I won't be able to leave it alone until I have those last few chores done. -FisherQueen (Talk) 10:49, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Some advice on improving

OK, then, since you want to improve it, here's some advice:

• The external jumps in the body of the text are a no-no. If they are used as references, you can better make them inline cites, and include a reference section. I'll do one to give you the idea of how it works, if you've never done it before. I do it manually, because I hate the cite templates, but the templates are there if you want to use them.
• The references you already have in the reference section should be moved to the area of the text they support. That will make them a footnote. I see from that you like the cite format. Glad it doesn't drive you batty like it does me.
• Family life section: there's a paragraph about him moving to a mobile home that isn't clear. Perhaps you could rewrite it.
• As mentioned above, an infobox would be nice.
• Two more images, supported by Fair use rationales,would improve the article. When I read it, there are areas where all I see is text on my screen.
• You've done a fabulous job on it! I am so impressed at the change you made, and am reclassing it as B right now. Jeffpw 10:59, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks so much for the advice. Regarding the references... this is my first time trying to use them (I've never really written a full article before), so just because I did it a way, doesn't mean I prefer that way- I am still figuring out what my choices are. I'll see what I can do about more images- I can think of at least one other that I know will qualify under fair use, and a little digging may well reveal more I can use.

Thanks for your kind words- I'm really pleased with how this article is going, and I've learned a lot while researching,both about Tipton and about Wikipedia. I even have Billy Tipton Trio music on my iPod now. The Eedo Bee thing makes me laugh, because I thought I'd be able to quietly improve the article unmolested, here in this obscure little corner of transgendered jazz. Silly me. -FisherQueen (Talk) 11:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for doing the sample reference so I can see how they work. I like that model much better, and my next bit of work will be switching them all to look like that. -FisherQueen (Talk) 11:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

No problem. Just remember for news articles to include the author, name of publication (wikilinked, if possible), date of publication and retrieval date. you know that, I think, from looking at what you've done so far. I have the page watchlisted, so if you need a hand, I will be able to give it. Jeffpw 11:39, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• Wow, FisherQueen, you've really done a lot today! It's looking great. Now one more thing you might want to do is set the references into the footnotes. If you didn't use them for researching the article, then you can rename the reference section "Further Reading". I am thoroughly impressed at how much work you've done. Jeffpw 20:10, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand this next bit. Do you mean that I should remove sources from the 'references' section that are used in the footnotes? -FisherQueen (Talk) 20:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. You don't need to double ref. If you used them for the footnotes, you can delete them from the reference section. Check what I did with the Historylink reference. If you go to footnote #1, you'll see that if you give the ref a name, you won't have to type it all out each time. It will save you lots of time in the future. I'll keep an eye out to seehow youre doing. :-) Jeffpw 20:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Wow! That is unquestionably the coolest thing ever. Thanks for showing me how it works. I'm finished for today, but I'll be back to do the rest of them and then remove the redundant references from the reference section. -FisherQueen (Talk) 21:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Pronoun use

Wikipedia Manual of Style recommends, in cases where the appropriate pronoun is in question, using the pronoun which the subject used to identify him or herself. In this case, Billy Tipton identified as male both in his professional and personal life, and that's why the male pronoun is the appropriate one in this article. -FisherQueen (Talk) 22:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Per Wendy Carlos I would also suggest this. Also, I think changing the pronoun in the middle of the article is quite confusing.--83.145.240.253 10:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Lead paragraph

The intro to this article currently states only: "Billy Lee Tipton (born Dorothy Lucille Tipton, December 29 1914 - January 21, 1989) was an American jazz pianist and saxophonist." However, the most distinctive and notable fact about Tipton -- the fact that Tipton was biologically female but lived as a male -- should probably be included in the intro as well. I would suggest that the second sentence of the article should be something like "Tipton became the subject of public interest posthumously when it was revealed that Tipton, who had lived for decades with a male identity, was biologically female." The exact phrasing can be worked out somehow. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 05:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

That sounds perfectly reasonable to me. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 12:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Would it be too simplistic to suggest using s/he throughout the article. This avoids attributing motivation to Tipton and in my mind conveys at least some of the ambiguity around gender identity as well as being clear about who it refers to in any paragraph. Tim O'Leary (talk) 01:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)