Talk:Erik Sparre: Difference between revisions
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::::At a pure guess, the phrase might have originated in Latin and the Latin may have a standard English rendering. [[User:Errantios|Errantios]] ([[User talk:Errantios|talk]]) 14:02, 15 May 2024 (UTC) |
::::At a pure guess, the phrase might have originated in Latin and the Latin may have a standard English rendering. [[User:Errantios|Errantios]] ([[User talk:Errantios|talk]]) 14:02, 15 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::I thought that too, but I am not convinced that "accidents and conveniences" is modern English, it reminds me somewhat of [[Agents and Patients]]. [[User:TSventon|TSventon]] ([[User talk:TSventon|talk]]) 14:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC) |
:::::I thought that too, but I am not convinced that "accidents and conveniences" is modern English, it reminds me somewhat of [[Agents and Patients]]. [[User:TSventon|TSventon]] ([[User talk:TSventon|talk]]) 14:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::My educated guess is that "accidents" applies to the sense of "something inherent to the object" (in this case, noble status; cf. [[Accident (philosophy)]]), whereas "conveniences" applies to the rights and privileges of the nobility. Is it possible this is English/British legal jargon? [[User:ThaesOfereode|ThaesOfereode]] ([[User talk:ThaesOfereode|talk]]) 14:26, 15 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::{{ping|Arcsoda}} I apologize for the confusion. I thought I might have mixed up two of my sources so I double-checked. As for how Roberts got that translation, I'm not certain how he translated it. I don't have any background in Swedish law, so I can't be helpful in that regard either. I did double check through my Swedish dictionary to confirm the translations, but legal jargon can be so damn thick, that – since I had no reason to doubt the author – I assumed it was translated into established English legal jargon. [[User:ThaesOfereode|ThaesOfereode]] ([[User talk:ThaesOfereode|talk]]) 14:18, 15 May 2024 (UTC) |
:::{{ping|Arcsoda}} I apologize for the confusion. I thought I might have mixed up two of my sources so I double-checked. As for how Roberts got that translation, I'm not certain how he translated it. I don't have any background in Swedish law, so I can't be helpful in that regard either. I did double check through my Swedish dictionary to confirm the translations, but legal jargon can be so damn thick, that – since I had no reason to doubt the author – I assumed it was translated into established English legal jargon. [[User:ThaesOfereode|ThaesOfereode]] ([[User talk:ThaesOfereode|talk]]) 14:18, 15 May 2024 (UTC) |
Revision as of 14:26, 15 May 2024
Erik Sparre is currently a Royalty, nobility and heraldry good article nominee. Nominated by ThaesOfereode (talk) at 15:09, 20 April 2024 (UTC) Anyone who has not contributed significantly to (or nominated) this article may review it according to the good article criteria to decide whether or not to list it as a good article. To start the review process, click start review and save the page. (See here for the good article instructions.) Short description: Swedish noble and statesman |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
A fact from Erik Sparre appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 15 May 2024 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
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Did you know nomination
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Launchballer talk 16:55, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- ... that Erik Sparre was godfather to Gustavus Adolphus, but Gustavus' father had Sparre beheaded at the Linköping Bloodbath shortly thereafter? Source: For the claim that he was godfather to Gustavus Adolphus: Sparre's relations with Duke Karl, after the death of Johan III, were at first good, and he even stood as godfather to Gustav Adolf in 1594. For the claim that Charles IX of Sweden had him executed: On March 20, 1600, the executions were carried out in the Linköping marketplace. Among those beheaded was Erik Sparre. (NB: Charles is referred to by his Swedish name, Karl, in this source.)
- ALT1: ... that Erik Sparre is known as "the father of Swedish constitutional law"? Source: Sparre attempted to take into consideration the common welfare of all Sweden. He has become known as the father of Swedish constitutional law.
- ALT2: ... that Erik Sparre has been called Sweden's James Madison? Source: Sweden did not produce a Jean Bodin or a James Madison, but it had Erik Sparre (1550–1600).
- Reviewed:
- Comment: I know the first hook is a bit clunky so I'm open to better wording. If not, this page is absolutely lousy with DYK material so if none of these ALTs are good, I'll happily find a new one!
Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has less than 5 past nominations.
Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.ThaesOfereode (talk) 02:47, 20 April 2024 (UTC).
QPQ not needed, ALT1 probably the best followed by ALT2. ALT0 is not great. Sourcing good, new enough no copyvios. All's good Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 04:55, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the review @OlifanofmrTennant:! I've added the {{subst:DYKtick}} since it looks like you forgot it, but if you need to change it, feel free. ThaesOfereode (talk) 14:34, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
Curious about specific translation
A passage under the "Pro lege, rege et grege" mentions the concepts "accidents and conveniences" which is translated from "tillhörigheter och nyttigheter". Obviously, these are historical terms and should in no way be confused with contemporary use and their translations.
That said, I'm very curious where this article finds it's claim to these severely deviating translations of the stated Swedish terminology. The link in the source note rendered nothing.
Arcsoda (talk) 09:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Arcsoda: The source cited (Roberts 1968, p. 304) contains the passage and translation, just as cited: "Sparre argued that the dukes had only a dominium utile in their duchies: their claim to enjoy their rights 'as freely as the king does in his dominions' applied therefore only to the 'accidents and conveniences' (tilhörigheter och nyttigheter), and by no means implied a sovereign authority." Roberts was a well-regarded historian and the book was published by a reputable academic source; I'm more willing to take that translation over virtually any other without good cause. ThaesOfereode (talk) 11:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- That you for responding. It wasn't the legitimacy behind the source that raised interest, it was how the translation was transfered from the source, when said source gives no explanation for the specific translation. Original material (e.g a source's own translations) is usually not welcome in Wikipedia articles.
- Arcsoda (talk) 13:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- @ThaesOfereode and Arcsoda: I have asked a question at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language#"accidents and conveniences". TSventon (talk) 13:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- At a pure guess, the phrase might have originated in Latin and the Latin may have a standard English rendering. Errantios (talk) 14:02, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- I thought that too, but I am not convinced that "accidents and conveniences" is modern English, it reminds me somewhat of Agents and Patients. TSventon (talk) 14:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- My educated guess is that "accidents" applies to the sense of "something inherent to the object" (in this case, noble status; cf. Accident (philosophy)), whereas "conveniences" applies to the rights and privileges of the nobility. Is it possible this is English/British legal jargon? ThaesOfereode (talk) 14:26, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- I thought that too, but I am not convinced that "accidents and conveniences" is modern English, it reminds me somewhat of Agents and Patients. TSventon (talk) 14:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- At a pure guess, the phrase might have originated in Latin and the Latin may have a standard English rendering. Errantios (talk) 14:02, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Arcsoda: I apologize for the confusion. I thought I might have mixed up two of my sources so I double-checked. As for how Roberts got that translation, I'm not certain how he translated it. I don't have any background in Swedish law, so I can't be helpful in that regard either. I did double check through my Swedish dictionary to confirm the translations, but legal jargon can be so damn thick, that – since I had no reason to doubt the author – I assumed it was translated into established English legal jargon. ThaesOfereode (talk) 14:18, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- @ThaesOfereode and Arcsoda: I have asked a question at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language#"accidents and conveniences". TSventon (talk) 13:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
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