Talk:Muhammad

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Historical Muhammad

Hi! A very interesting and concise article. I have one question, though. Why is the biogrpahy of Muhammad only given in the traditional islamic form? That sure has cultural and religious value, but to those readers who are interested in the actual historical Muhammad, shouldn't the article contain a biography based on critical historical research? (Compare with Jesus). --Tungsten 09:29, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Muhammad being the "greatest" prophet

Where is the source that Muhammad is considered the greatest of the prophets according to Muslims? He is the most well known in Islam because he is considered the reviver of the faith, but greatest? I don't think Muslims as a whole would be so bold as to ignore all of the other prophets before him or to put them on a scale? Is Esposito the source, where does he say greatest? Muhammad compared to other prophets in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition was not as powerful, he could not separate the sea or cure the blind, so from what source is he considered the greatest? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.19.135.178 (talk • contribs)

The sources are referenced in that sentence with the page numbers. I would expect it to be mentioned there since they are references to this specific statement (which indicates this question has arisen before). → AA ^{(talk • contribs)} — 22:42, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Muhammad is considered the greatest prophet in Islam, because he is the "al-insan al-kamil" ("the perfect man"), which is a unique title Muhammad has in islam, and a privilege he possesses, unlike all other Judeo-Christian prophets before him. In reality, Muslims more or less, worship Muhammad, though of course, they would never admit this. But it's pretty clear that they do indeed worship him, seeing how they go berserk every time someone says anything critical of Muhammad. By the way, in Islam, the Judeo-Christian prophets are considered Muslims, not Jews or Christians. Hope that helps. EliasAlucard|Talk 18:48 02 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

This explains the al-insan al-kamil part, and this explains that Islam considers all Judeo-Christian prophets as Muslims. Now, how is that trolling? Look, you may not like criticism. I understand some people have a problem with that, but get used to it. With criticism, comes improvement. EliasAlucard|Talk 01:54 03 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

I think al-insan al-kamil should be included in the article. What say you? EliasAlucard|Talk 05:21 03 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

Not per those sources. If you can refer to scholarly sources, then there may be a case for inclusion. Cheers. → AA ^{(talk • contribs)} — 09:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Those are scholarly sources. If you checked the first link, Robert Spencer provides links to several Islamic sources. Also, saying that Robert Spencer himself, is not a scholar on Islam, is ridiculous, and most likely a bias motivated by the fact that he is a critic of islam. So really, it's just Ad hominem. He has written several best selling books on Islam, and they're all properly sourced to Islamic scholars and Islamic sources. Also, imam Abu Laban (before he died) was featured on 60 Minutes, and he proclaimed that, and I quote, “Muhammad, is the perfect man”, so what's the problem? Oh and one last thing: could you please stop censoring me? If I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry, but look, I didn't exactly write anything outrageous; I didn't use profane language. Maybe you have a problem with accepting criticism, but that's not my problem. I'm allowed to express myself, and you should perhaps, try to listen to what I'm saying. Calling everything you disagree with "trolling" is just a cheap shot. Wikipedia is not censored. If you keep this up, I will report it. EliasAlucard|Talk 13:55 03 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

Citing reliable sources does not a reliable source make. Kent Hovind cites Scott Tremaine when he talks about planet formation - yet Tremaine is a reliable source and Hovind isn't. I definitely see no evidence that the "JihadWatch" blog is a reliable source - and it doesn't pass the duck test at all. JSTOR gives me only 33 hits for "al-insan al-kamil" - indicating that it's probably not a very important concept. But I'll see if any discuss it in depth. Cheers, WilyD 14:03, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Anyways, searching through JSTOR this morning, I haven't found much of interest - most references to the concept are off-hand, and many associate with things apart from Muhammad to boot (like Adam, or generic, or whatever). Ibn 'Arabī's Theory of the Perfect Man and Its Place in the History of Islamic Thought by Masataka Takeshita might be a good reference for the issue, I'm not sure - but it's the best I've found. Cheers, WilyD 14:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[Outdent] Thanks, WilyD for doing the research (although the duty is on the editor who wants to add the content). EliasAlucard, I removed your comment above in line with policy:

• "talk pages exist for the purpose of discussing how to improve articles; they are not mere general discussion pages about the subject of the article"

However, if you feel they need to stay to show your POV, then it's fine with me. I was not trying to censor it but to ensure the discussions remain civil. → AA ^{(talk • contribs)} — 16:29, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe in uncompromised free speech, and I am against all forms of censorship, whether it's religious censorship, or, as WilyD called it on my talk page, "productivity censorship" (whatever that's supposed to mean). I wasn't at all off topic, or trolling. Anyway, I'll be looking for better sources, don't worry. EliasAlucard|Talk 20:59 03 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

Elias, you have no right to say that Muslims worship Prophet Muhammad. You can say "It seems," or "I think", because it's offending. Just because Muslims, as you put it, "go beserk" everytime someone criticizes Muhammad (PBUH) doesn't mean that they worship him. I mean, Muslims don't go beserk everytime someone insults God---and that is because people hardly insult God. The Qu'ran says to treat Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) with respect, and that doesn't mean to outward worship him. Everything in the Qu'ran that tells us what we need to believe in, what we need to do is straight-forward. No hinting. Iman S1995 23:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Elias, you have no right to say that Muslims worship Prophet Muhammad — is that a threat? Is my fatwa coming up? Actually, I have all the right in the world to say that. It's called freedom of speech. I'm not a muslim and I'm not obliged to follow the Qu'ran. Please knock this off. You're not helping anyone, least of all, this article. — EliasAlucard|Talk 15:17 03 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Elias, Muslims defend muhammad with, what you call. "Violance" because they fear that your comments

are intended to spread lies about them or their prophet. No body knows what is there in the hearts, if you are

just purely expressing soughts you are free to do that......or you want to delebraetly spread lies to distort the truth or defame the image about this relegion and its people...that is a direct assult that is not tolerated by this relegion..you are FREE to critisize but not free to attack it...it seems it is the favourate song these days to attack islam....and you should know..even you like it or not..that is a powerful relegion..and will fight back any attack by any means that will depond on the level of ur hatered and assult on it...Many messages have been distorted through ages, because thier people have not stood up aganist the people who tried to turn off the light and make it fade...because a guy just don't like the idea of a diety or commitments or commandements and they thought of god's people as prejudiced people who claim superiorty. Muslims don't claim superioty, but sure we will cut off any hand who will try to turn off the light? got it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.167.191 (talk • contribs)

Thanks, for proving me right on islam. I rest my case. — EliasAlucard|Talk 15:44 22 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

al-insan al-kamil

All right, I think we got a case now. Feel free to improve it. EliasAlucard|Talk 04:05 04 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

I very much dislike these accusations of trolling and believe threats such as "If you persist on trolling Talk:Muhammad, you will find yourself unable to do so." are inappropriate and counterproductive. It would be better to discuss concerns instead of issuing threats in this situation because I think the original statement was intended to express a relevant point (whether right or wrong) as viewed by EliasAlucard, but not intended only to offend. Failing to make an effort not to offend isn't the same as attempting to offend and thus isn't trolling. The essence of what he was trying to say does have some veracity, although I would prefer to say Muhammad is highly venerated and nearly idolized in that criticism of him generally meets severe rebuke from Muslims. Ultimately however, Muslims pray to God, not Muhammad. So he might be considered perfect in religious, political, social, etc. matters, but still not quite worshiped. Talmage 06:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the support. In my honest opinion, though muslims regard it as shirk and deny that they worship Muhammad, I consider it worship, seeing how they defend him with violence. Is this offending muslims? Well then, so be it. But I still think Muslims should take what I'm saying, into consideration. EliasAlucard|Talk 13:22 04 Jul, 2007 (UTC)

See point two of WP:TALK#How to use article talk pages, also WP:SOAP. The opinion you've offered is interesting, but has nothing to do with improving the article.Proabivouac 02:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Al-insan al-kamil, merge for discussion

Merge discussions for [Al-insan al-kamil]. → AA ^{(talk • contribs)} — 08:48, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

• Support merge - it is a notable aspect of how the Prophet is thought of and should be dealt with in the main article, doesn't need its own article. Itsmejudith 09:21, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong keep, no merge. The term al-insan al-kamil is notable enough to warrant its own article. This Muhammad article is generally about his life from the beginning to the end, and shouldn't focus too much on how Muhammad is revered in Muslim tradition. The Muhammad article is already huge, we don't need to overload it with more content. Just pointing out in the intro that he is called al-insan al-kamil, with a link to the article, is enough. We can expand this topic a lot more in its own article. EliasAlucard|Talk 13:22 04 Jul, 2007 (UTC)
• Support merge, i think it can be covered in a few sentences in this article, there doesn't seem to be much else to the concept anyway. needs some reliable sources. ITAQALLAH 12:12, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I can see what you're trying to do here. You're removing the sources from the main article and trying to make this into an obscure topic and undermining support for its existence as an article, in order to support your argument. You are simply trying to give this article less attention, presumably, by merging it into this one. Also, one of the reasons this article shouldn't be merged, is because it's not exclusively about Muhammad. This title (the perfect man) is also given to Adam, and other islamic saints. It's a notable article in its own right, and I know, for a fact, that there's a lot more to it than the few sources I've added right now. I haven't had enough time to expand on the article on my own. However, the sources I've provided, are all to islamic sources, and reliable. Period. EliasAlucard|Talk 14:43 04 Jul, 2007 (UTC)
    • please cease the incivility and bad faith attacks. the sources you added to the article aren't reliable, nor have you attempted to explain why they are so. back to the discussion: as said above, there's no need for content forking. ITAQALLAH 12:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
      • If Adam is also regarded as al-insan al-kamil in the Qur'an, then there's no reason the al-insan al-kamil article should be merged into this one, is there? Because the article is not exclusively about Muhammad. Also, there's nothing wrong with the sources. You just don't like them because you're biased. EliasAlucard|Talk 14:55 04 Jul, 2007 (UTC)
        • Quit the personal attacks, will you?Proabivouac 19:38, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose I agree with EliasAlucard. Al-insan al-kamil is a concept and it's not equal with the prophet. In practice prophet is matched with it perfectly. Itaqallah has claimed there doesn't seem to be much else to the concept anyway while there is sufficient information to have a separate article. There are several authors who wrote the books in Persian which discussed about this issue like Morteza Motahhari, Aziz Al-din Nasafi, Yahya Kamali. However we can have a section in this article to satisfy Itsmejudith too.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 02:21, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
• Support merge per above--Sefringle^Talk 05:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge - barely anything there anyhow.Proabivouac 19:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment That's because, thanks to Itaqallah's revert warring, the article is protected, and no one is allowed to work on it. More content is available though, if you just look for it. Lots of muslims have written books on the al-insan al-kamil concept. This article, could be huge in its own right, if we started working on it. EliasAlucard|Talk 15:53 07 Jul, 2007 (UTC)
    • Discuss the changes you intend to add in the talk page. If there is consensus, it can be included via the use of the {{editprotected}} template. → AA ^{(talk • contribs)} — 21:09, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
• Support merge per Itsmejudith and Itaqallah. BYT 20:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose merging as this would be a very narrow focus of Muhammad in Muslim tradition. I have included this point among others in this edit of mine [1]. I think details (if there are any) should be mentioned in the al-insan al-kamil article. --Aminz 04:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
• Support per above. The "oppose" votes are indicative of something interesting. Arrow740 06:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Would you like to share that interesting point for us? --Aminz 06:57, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - the current article is, indeed, shit. That doesn't mean the answer is a merge - it looks like the concept might be worth writing about, and writing about well, with real sources. If it is just a concept in Sufiism (or even more restrictive) then it's not necessarily worth mentioning here (and definitely not in the opening!) but may be worth exploring somewhere else. I've linked a couple sources on the talk page there, for a start - anybody else interested in trying to make an actual article on the subject? WilyD 13:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Reply – I can't believe a merge is being discussed. This insan kamil concept, is a concept of mainly, sufi islam, but not limited to sufi islam. It shouldn't be in the article of Muhammad, because that's not what the Muhammad article should focus on. EliasAlucard|Talk 16:11 14 Jul, 2007 (UTC)
    • from the sources available, it would seem that `al-insan al-kamil` is a concept in Sufism. there is currently no evidence to suggest it extends beyond that. this article should naturally cover the topic, as it relates to how he is perceived in Sufi thought. some users above are claiming there is more coverage of the concept, which i'll try to investigate. ITAQALLAH 14:22, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
      • It may not be a concept of mainstream islam, but definitely, not only Sufis use this. Abu Laban (a Sunni muslim) called Muhammad the perfect man on 60 minutes. I don't see any reason to merge it into the article of Muhammad, because this article is supposed to be sort of biographical, not delve into theological concepts on Muhammad. — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:06 14 Jul, 2007 (UTC)
        • This article doesn't have to be just a biography. It should cover all the notable aspects of the topic Muhammad. If "60 minutes" is a TV programme then I think I am right in saying it doesn't count as a source unless a transcript has been made available. Itsmejudith 16:09, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
          • I don't think you understand what I'm saying. This article is about Muhammad, not about general concepts on muhammad. It's an article, focusing on his life, his prophetic career, his military career, etcetera. This is not the right article to write a huge concept of how Muhammad is perceived by muslims. This merge discussion is beside the point in the first place. You can't pack just about everything related to Muhammad in this article. It's already huge. People are not going to read it all. It's better that we have separate articles on each topic instead. We already have other, similar topics, like for instance, Mohammedan. Why doesn't al-insan al-kamil deserve an article of its own? — EliasAlucard|Talk 16:46 16 Jul, 2007 (UTC)
            • The simplest thing is for you to draft an article in your sandbox, using all the sources that you say are available. Then everyone can see if there's enough reliably sourced stuff for an article. Itsmejudith 14:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
              • I'm getting the feeling that you simply just don't want this article to exist. Why all the hassle with sandboxes and stuff like that? There are plenty of reliable sources available on this concept. I don't have access to them. But, if several prominent muslims have written books on the subject, there's a lot to glean from that alone. How about, instead of discussing it here and wasting time, collaborating on the subject? — EliasAlucard|Talk 18:33 16 Jul, 2007 (UTC)
                • Sandboxes are actually a good place to start article you're working on alone (i.e. User:WilyD/Sandbox2). For an article without anything really ready yet to discuss, it's harder to work it out elsewhere. A draft that can be discussed is probably needed. As for quality sources on the subject - I'm not sure how to help you with this. You can try talking to the other users at the relevant talk about some sort of comprimise to get the page unlocked - find out what people's specific objects are and figure out how to work with them. It does seem that Al-insan al-kamil is a fairly specialised subject, which most editors may not be inherently familiar with. Until it's independant notability is shown (and I believe it exists), they're likely to be luke-warm at best. Cheers, WilyD 17:24, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
                  • Why do you oppose the existence of this article? — EliasAlucard|Talk 18:48 21 Jul, 2007 (UTC)
                    • Just cause I've yet to see there is enough sourced stuff for it. If there is, I'll change my mind, hence the sandbox suggestion. Remember, there are editors on this 'pedia who delete 50 articles a day. Itsmejudith 17:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
                      • There is enough sourced stuff for it. You'll just have to look for it. I've told you, several prominent muslims have written books on the concept. Search and you will find. — EliasAlucard|Talk 20:58 21 Jul, 2007 (UTC)
                    • As far as I know, I have neither supported nor opposed such an article, only offered comments and done relevant research. WilyD 20:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
                  • Yes, and you found plenty of material, did you not? Look, this merging, isn't necessary. There's plenty, PLENTY of material, available on this concept. What you found is just the tip of the iceberg. Can we please close this merge for discussion as keep the article, unlock the actual article, and get down to work with scholarly sources? I'll admit, I don't have access to all these scholarly sources on the al-insan al-kamil concept. But, I'm sure other people, with access to various encyclopaedias of islam, and access to the book Al-Jili wrote, can dig up some serious stuff on the concept. So, what do you say? — EliasAlucard|Talk 15:34 22 Jul, 2007 (UTC)
• Support:it's very simple,its about prophet muhammad(peace be upon him). By the way,didn't anyone realize that it took too long for this minor case to be resloved??Grandia01 02:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Muhammad as a historical figure

All historical information in this wiki is presented like it's a fact. But this is not the Koran, this is wikipedia. There is no historical evidence that Muhammad ever existed. The mentioned sources all base their information on the Koran. And if Muhammad ever lived, there is some doubt that he lived in Saoudi Arabia (Syria is mentioned as a more likely place). The first scientific historical information about the new religion Islam comes from two centuries after Muhammad died.

In the wiki about Jesus, some doubts about the historical Jesus are mentioned. But the wiki about Muhammed does some copy / paste work form the Koran. Maybe this information should be an a different page, but it should be mentioned. I also think there is far too much information in this wiki.

• Do you know of any reliable sources that doubt that there was a historical guy named Muhammad? WilyD 21:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Why did you delete my comment? Political correctness? I think more needs to be said about how nonmuslims see Muhammad. They do not consider him the perfect man, to say the least.

• I explained why your comment was removed on your userpage. If you have productive comments to add, feel free, but vague insults are unhelpful. This is not a forum, but a discussion page for how to write an encyclopaedic article about Muhammad. Off-topic posts can be removed (and are aggressively here, for obvious reasons). Cheers, WilyD 19:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

How about this:

Amongst some non-Muslims and particularly westerners, Muhammad is seen as a controversial figure. Accounts of his actions and Islam, the religion he founded are considered to be excessively violent and immoral. In his 50s, he married Aisha, the daughter of his friend Abu Bakr, while she was only 6 years old. According to some, this justifies labeling him a pedophile. In recent years, many view his contributions and the religion that he passed on to his followers as inspiring of terrorism and colonialism. Sources:http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27975 , http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm ,

There are plenty of sources for this much information. If that muslims think he's perfect is mentioned, what the rest of the world thinks of him should be mentioned as well.

A lot of this kind of material is already in this article, as well as the much more detailed Christian view of Muhammad, for instance. In general, there's a strong need to avoid recentism here - especially with unimportant stuff like "historic moral judgements of". Since the kind of stuff you're talking about already has a section, why not begin by saying what you dislike about how it's covered? Cheers, WilyD 22:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, make sure to have stronger sources. Only a very few of the sources are not print sources and most are from well established press (and those are only about depictions of Muhammad and they are from major news organizations). gren グレン 07:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Kotham and Halabi

Can someone address in the article the birth names of Muhammad (PBUH) which are circulating the internet please? Thank you 82.6.114.172 16:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

conflict

In the middle years section, it says that both his sons died before the Prophet declared his mission, while the family life section says otherwise. Could someone solve this ?! Thank you. Unflavoured 12:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Destroying references

References 55 and 44 have disappeared because they apparently reference references which have since been removed. I did a brief search but couldn't find what they originally linked to. Can anyone find the references and we should be careful about this in the future. gren グレン 07:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Wrapping up the issue of Muhammad's images

Recently, we had another unnecessary uproar over a Muhammad image at the Kaaba article. Its time to form a clear policy page that we can just link too in future and warn the user for a block if they continue to remove a Muhammad image. I've made this page on the Wikiproject Islam's page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Islam/Images of Muhammad. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 03:14, 16 July 2007 (UTC

I don't think Wikipedia:WikiProject Islam/Images of Muhammad works. It gives the impression that images are okay and removing them is not... (not shedding any light on when it's appropriate to use what images). I think it would be very difficult to craft policy which made it clear that images cannot be removed for no reason but they should not just be added willy-nilly because a page mentions Muhammad. I really doubt it's something that can be templated... I haven't seen what happened at kaba, but I think in extremely blatant cases of "I'm removing it because it offends Muslims" it can easily be removed... gren グレン 13:09, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

it will go on i know because muslims now they believe that each and every image of Mohammad PBUH is to dominate them just because of those cartoon images of Mohammad and still the question is if muslims they dont like the images & the statue of Mohammad why every one is creating & publishing it even they knows very well that it will hurt muslims please respect others ignity & dignity.--Kashi. 12:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Both ignity and dignity? Are you sure? Arrow740 06:29, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

We have heard that speech a million times. Repeating it again will not remove the images.--Sefringle^Talk 04:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps "ignity" is a propensity to ignite? Itsmejudith 07:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Gren's approach sounds good to me -- we can be sensitive to culture without letting it be the dominant factor in deciding our content. This doesn't necessarily have to be an either-or thing. To use an outside example, just as we don't run around adding "may she rest in peace," to every article about a deceased person, but we don't add "Gee, I'm glad that one's dead," either. Mention and show things when they're relevant, I figure. – Luna Santin (talk) 18:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Beginning of the conflict section

Arrow re your edit summary [2], Lewis says:"The immigrants, economically uprooted and not wishing to be wholly dependent on the Medinese, turned to the sole remaining profession, that of arms. The state of war between Medina and Mecca provided the occasion for its excersise. Raids on merchant carvans were seens as a natural and legitimate act of war."

They were already in the state of war. --Aminz 03:53, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Lewis is deliberately vague as to the cause of the war. Watt is explicit. Do you doubt that Watt would say otherwise if he could? Arrow740 05:02, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

from the quote, it seems that Lewis is saying that they were already at war, thus acting as a pretext for the raids. if Watt appears to disagree, saying Muhammad started the war, then there is nothing wrong with relating a divergence of opinion. ITAQALLAH 18:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Watt doesn't say that they were not in the state of war. He is just saying that Muhammad provoked and took the initiative in the series of razzia. Lewis says the raids were justified because they were in state of war. In fact, Muhammad was forced to migrate to Medina, he and his followers were openly persecuted in Medina. The reason that Muhammad merely focused on Mecca rather than other cities show the case.

Arrow, please follow WP:CIVIL in both your edit summary and comments. --Aminz 21:03, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

that's true... if Watt simply says Muhammad initiated the razzias, it doesn't necessarily mean that they weren't in a open state of hostility before then. ITAQALLAH 23:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Page 105: "In the raids the Muslims were taking the offensive...In our peace-conscious age it is difficult to understand how a religious leader could thus engage in offensive war and become almost an aggressor." Page 112 (Nakhlah is where the Muslims violated the sacred month and killed a Meccan in a raid): "Such was the expedition to Nakhlah and its consequences...it is clear that Muhammad had here, more or less deliberately, thrown down the gauntlet to the Meccans." Arrow740 05:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I wonder why you stopped quoting Watt at those points. Watt provides two explanation for that: 1. Razzis were a normal feature of desert life and were kind of sport rather than war 2. For Muhammad, a religous body included the whole matter of their lives not just worship. The razzis were made solely or primarily by Emigrants. Watt continues: "The Emigrants went on Razzis because they thought they were badly treated by their fellow-Meccans. One verse described them as 'those who after persecution emigrated, then strove and patiently endured..." Please either represent the sources fully or don't quote them. --Aminz 03:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I stopped because we neither include his "it seems weird that a holy man would kill people" nor his moral relativistic argument (which, you should know, is not compatible with Islam's view of objective morality) why it's alright. Arrow740 04:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

No. Watt doesn't say what you say on his behalf. On the second point he explains "For us a religous body is a group of people who come together for common worship, and perhaps some other limited purposes; but for Muhammad the religous community was a body of people associated with one another in the whole of their life, that is, was also a political unit". --Aminz 04:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Attribution and mention of all significant variations is the solution as per WP:NPOV--Tigeroo 20:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Lewis doesn't contradict this. He is being intentionally vague. Arrow740 21:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

he's not being vague, he says: "The state of war between Medina and Mecca provided the occasion for its [i.e. razzias] excersise.", brackets mine. ITAQALLAH 21:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

<reset>That is vague. Here's what he says on page 45 of the 1960 (unredacted) version: "In March 635 Quraish, reacting against the growing danger of Medinese brigandage, sent an expedition against Muhammad and defeated the Muslims on the slopes of Uhud." So he is making it clear that offensive action on the part of the Meccans was provoked by the prior offensive actions of Muhammad. Arrow740 21:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Lewis is not vague he clearly states that there was a state of war. There was a serious tension both from the situation that required the Muslims to leave Mecca and from the fact that Medina was giving them safe haven. Meccans even sent a delegation to Medina to get them to not support the Muslims, that is what Lewis is referring to. If it didn't exist he wouldn't have mentioned it in the first place. Uhud is not the beginning of the conflict either, it's well after Badr and the material under discussion is of the time leading up to Badr.--Tigeroo 21:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

we all know the Meccans sent out forces in reaction to the razzias. that just means Muhammad raised the stakes, not that they weren't in state of hostility before that. ITAQALLAH 13:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Here's what Cook says: "The central theme of this activity was Muhammad's confrontation with his home town of Mecca. In the second year of the hijra he made plans to intercept a rich Meccan caravan returning from Syria. The caravan escaped, but a force sent out by the Meccans to defend it was roundly defeated by some three hundred Muslims (reinforced by angels) at Badr. Subsequently, however, it looked as if Muhammad had taken on more than he could handle." Arrow740 22:08, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

erm.. it looks like Cook's talking about post-Badr events (i.e. Uhud), which fared less successfully for Muhammad. ITAQALLAH 13:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

This version strikes me as unnecessarily convoluted. Besides the poor writing, these accounts don't substantially differ such that we'd need to represent them as competing opinions.Proabivouac 23:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Aminz, given the sources I have provided here, your recent edit is disruption. You are to taking a vague statement and inserting it to oppose the truth we have sourced to Watt and Lewis himself. Arrow740 04:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

In fact, your edits are disruption. This is the kind of arguments you provide: 1. When Lewis says:"The state of war between Medina and Mecca provided the occasion for its excersise.", he is deliberately vague and that there was no state of war. 2. You misquote Watt and make him saying there were no hostility between emigrants from Mecca (who solely or primarily engaged in raids) and Meccans. --Aminz 04:53, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Try reading the quotes again. Muhammad started it, the sources say it clearly. Arrow740 06:00, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Muhammad started what? The state of hostility? The razzis?

Arrow, this is getting tiresome. Watt is clear that The razzis were made "solely or primarily by Emigrants...The Emigrants went on Razzis because they thought they were badly treated by their fellow-Meccans..."- Lewis is clear that "The state of war between Medina and Mecca provided the occasion" for excersise of what was "seen as a natural and legitimate act of war."

Watt says Muhammad (and the Emigrants) initiated the razzis as Watt says because they felt persecuted by Meccans and forced to be exiled. Muhammad himself escaped an assassination plan before migration.

You have not made any case for your claim that Lewis is vague in the sentence:"The state of war between Medina and Mecca provided the occasion for its[arms] excersise." How can you read this sentence in a way that it doesn't imply the state of war? And further, how do you conclude he is deliberately vague? --Aminz 07:22, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Karen Armstrong

Someone asked "Why not Karen?". I have been wondering this for a while. I know that she has not held an academic post, but I would say that she is part of mainstream scholarly thought, in the UK at least. She featured prominently this year in events organised by the British Library. They don't invite just anyone. She is also frequently on the BBC. Itsmejudith 22:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

She has no training. Arrow740 22:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Seems to me that Robert Spencer would be at least as qualified by the same metric.Proabivouac 23:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Spencer has a MA in a relevant field, Armstrong is unable to boast of being so highly educated. Beit Or 15:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Satanic Verses

Arrow, you know well that the incident is controversial and you closely watch the section here [3]. What WP:POINT do you want to prove by writing it as a fact [4]? --Aminz 08:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Lots of things are controversial. In the academic community, this is not. Leaving the self-taught caetani aside, every modern scholar supports the idea that it happened. Cook mentions it in passing. If even Watt states that it happened, we don't need to give credence to internet dawah sites by saying that it might not have happened. Arrow740 09:19, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea that "everybody" except caetani "supports the idea that it happened"? What do you think of Muslim view of it? It is disruption to write this as a fact.

Now you are disrupting the section here [5]. --09:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Islamic studies scholars state it as a fact. In CoQ, I'm not being disruptive, I'm insisting upon standards for sources. Arrow740 09:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Again, Where did you get the idea that "everybody" except caetani "supports the idea that it happened"? Who said that all "Islamic studies scholars state it as a fact."? --Aminz 09:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Lewis, Watt, Rodinson, Cook, Muir, Guillame, Rubin, Etan Kohlberg (not sure who he is, it's Brill though) Arrow740 09:50, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The first one is Watt. I am aware of scholars who accept the incident. You have not answered my question: Where did you get the idea that "everybody" except Leone Caetani "supports the idea that it happened"? What about Muslims? --Aminz 09:55, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

What about John Burton(Journal of Semitic Studies (JSS)) who argued for its fictitiousness based upon a demonstration of its actual utility to certain elements of the Muslim community – namely, those legal exegetes seeking an "occasion of revelation" for eradicatory modes of abrogation:

"Far, however, from being unthinkable, it has now become possible both to establish that the story is indeed the invention of Muslims and to identify the motive that compelled them to invent it (p. 249) The exegetes have long given rein to a strong predilection for reference to concrete historical occasions to facilitate the interpretation of the Qur'ān's frequently oblique utterances, and in this instance, the suggestions that Satan is supposed to have "cast into the longing" of Muhammad are the so-called "satanic verses"...It was solely in order to justify these interpretations of what this verse [Q.22:52] was thought to state that Tabarī introduced the infamous hadīths alleging Muhammad's incredible compact with the Meccans (p. 253)"

Doesn't this contradict your statement?

Why did you remove this from the article? --Aminz 10:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

What might you be referring to? Arrow740 10:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Irving Zeitlin speaks of it as if it happened here and here, though in the second place he disputes Watt's interpretation of the event (while assuming its historicity). Muslims believe a lot of things, wikipedia doesn't have to reflect the concensus of the Muslim nation. Arrow740 10:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Further, Zeitlin implicitly characterizes all modern western scholars as accepting the essential validity of the narrative. Arrow740 10:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Where does the sociologist Zeitlin imply that "all" modern western scholars accept the historicity of the incident. Do you deny that in the face of having a counter example(John Burton and Catenai)? I don't mention the Muslim exegesis view. Please don't write controversial matters as facts in the future because it is disruption. --Aminz 10:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Forget Catenai, he has no degree. Burton has been proven to be an extreme minority view, please accept this. Arrow740 10:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

That it is a minority view in current western academia is true. Muslim view of the incident( based on the weak isnad of the narration, etc etc) is also important. In any case, it is not a fact that it happened. --Aminz 10:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

It probably is a fact that it did happen, but that does not mean you can't find someone saying it didn't. Just like pretty much everything these days, if something is presently controversial, it probably didn't happen.Proabivouac 10:50, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Bukhari mentions that the pagans also worshiped when these verses were delivered, which only makes sense if they were henotheist, not the monotheist ones which attacked the goddesses. Anyway, I think we're in agreement on this. Arrow740 10:53, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• the much more reasonable option would be to provide a summary of opinions from a tertiary source like the EoI, wherein Welch says that most European biographers accept it, while most Muslim scholars reject it. Welch himself dismisses the historicity of the story that is related today (as found in Tabari, Waqidi and Ibn Sa'd), but he says that this doesn't rule out the possibility of some historical accuracy therein. ITAQALLAH 13:51, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, in fact Welch writes:

This does not rule out the possibility of some historical kernel behind the story. It is possible that this story is another example of historical telescoping, i.e. that a situation that was known by Muhammad's contemporaries to have lasted for a long period of time later came to be encapsulated in a story that restricts his acceptance of intercession through these goddesses to a brief period of time and places the responsibility for this departure from a strict monotheism on Satan. This interpretation is completely consistent with what is said above regarding Muhammad's gradual “emergence as a religious reformer” and with evidence from the Kuran that a strict monotheism arose in stages over an extended period of time during Muhammad's Meccan years...

Beit Or 14:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

i am well aware Welch writes that, he is proposing his own theory as to how the story fits in to the sira i.e. by stating it was something which occured over a long period of time, and then the story came about via historical telescoping. it cannot be avoided, however, that he states: "The story in its present form (as related by al- Tabari, al-Waqidi, and Ibn Sa'd) cannot be accepted as historical for a variety of reasons given in AL - Kur`an , at 404. This does not rule out the possibility of some historical kernel behind the story." ITAQALLAH 15:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)