Talk:Myanmar civil war (2021–present)

Sub-topic of the article

Declaration of war 2021 dry season campaigns Early 2022 2022 monsoon season campaigns 2022-2023 dry season campaign I propose that these all sub-topics should be merged into one single topic : THE CIVIL WAR. K.a.c.e.a.c (talk) 04:56, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

The sections are already really long. I think you can add Early 2022 into 2021 dry for sure. The reason they are split like this right now is because you see more fighting during the dry seasons. Also the civil war isn't based on the NUG declaration only. There are sources that talk about it starting in May or earlier of 2021. I intend to do some editing later today to try and cut down the size of the article. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 15:06, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Draft:Battle of Mindat

It's been noted that there are a lot of battle pages that are needed, but have yet to be made- I've started one for the Battle of Mindat. If anyone would like to help with it, that'd be appreciated. Presidentofyes12 (talk) 20:53, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

War crime committed by the junta of the Myanmar civil war

I think there should be a section on the war crimes committed by the junta Monochromemelo1 (talk) 16:26, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Sure why not? Put it somewhere near the Humanitarian conditions section, Be WP:BOLD and also remember to keep a neutral point of view. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 17:45, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Okay I'll start working on it later! Monochromemelo1 (talk) 21:34, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Rohingya Resistance

Where do the Rohingya Resistance Groups fit into this page despite the migrant crisis in Bangladesh because there are small Rohingya groups that are fighting the Junta. Koreanidentity10000 (talk) 22:11, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, like you said there are small Rohingya groups, like there are small Myaungmya groups or small [insert ethnic-minority] groups. Overall, not particularly mentioned in reliable sources. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 01:41, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

So should the Rohingya resistance groups such as the ARSA and the RSO be included into the Allied ethnic armed organisations sections and the infobox? Koreanidentity10000 (talk) 01:41, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't see why they would not be included in the Allied ethnic armed section so long as we can source reliable sources to backup the existance of the groups and their alliances. Jurisdicta (talk) 03:48, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Map

Does anyone have any good sources on mapping for the conflict? I can't find anything River10000 (talk) 15:58, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately there are no easy mapping answers- it's kind of hard given the daily changes in control and lack of coverage. There's a few options: IISS heat map, a recently updated version of an unreliable 2022 map from twitter or this outdated 2022 township level map. Really the only feasible wikipedia option is for a wikipedian to map it but it's a lot of work and hard to verify given it is contested and controversial, requiring a lot of region-specific WP:RS to back up without engaging in WP:OR. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 17:18, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeah. What a shame it's not mapped out by something fully like live-map; just goes to show that the civil war has really just gotten no coverage in western media despite how many lives it's affecting River10000 (talk) 15:21, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

https://myanmar.iiss.org/ Doyna Yar (talk) 14:38, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I don’t think that site has a live map, it’s mostly data on there 2405:9800:B650:10C4:C32:5EAF:CB0C:5546 (talk) 00:54, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Proposed Rename: Myanmar civil war (2021–present) -> Myanmar civil war

Is there any basis for the additional clarification of (2021-present)? We do not have any articles for other Myanmar civil wars. Dazzling4 (talk) _Myanmar_civil_war" class="ext-discussiontools-init-timestamplink">20:39, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Internal conflict in Myanmar, of which this is only a renewed stage of conflict- especially true given that half of the fighting is with EAOs EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 22:35, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

On the new map

It seems to be sourced from twitter, I genuinely dont know, possibly could be remade in svg format and a more easily readable map. Lukt64 (talk) 23:08, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I'd say that we include it, as it seems like the best information we have. All other high-quality maps I can find are from October 2022 at the latest, so an updated map which includes at least semi-accurate information seems like a godsend for a map that hasn't been updated for more than 1.5 years and includes no major specifics on territorial control. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 19:42, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Agreed about readability - the colors are really awful and inaccessible. Why are they all so desaturated and similar? I can barely read it. HappyWith (talk) 06:18, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

https://www.irrawaddy.com/opinion/guest-column/charting-the-shifting-power-balance-on-myanmars-battlefields.html

There's conflict maps, is it possible to make a wiki version without the copy right? Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 21:51, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Acronyms

Is it really necessary to have all of the 30 armed groups in the infobox be represented by acronyms? People who aren’t super informed about the war will have no idea what they each are and will have to click on each one to find out the actual names. HappyWith (talk) 06:24, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Infobox bloat

The "combatants" sections of the infobox are ludicrously bloated. Can we cut this down? An infobox is only supposed to cover the key facts, not every single detail and unit involved. I would do it myself, but I don't know enough about the conflict to confidently choose what to trim and what to leave in. If other editors can contribute thoughts, that'd be super useful.

Also, trimming aside, a lot of the specific units belong in the "units" parameter that exists for this purpose. HappyWith (talk) 22:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

I've cut out as many of them as I could- mostly using the metric of if they are mentioned in the body + my judgement. In my opinion; the rest are all relevant- the different groups rarely share any chain of command and are largely autonomous units who happen to be in this large grand coalition for now- they aren't really units as much as independent armies. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 00:57, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! I still think it could be trimmed more, but this is a big improvement. HappyWith (talk) 21:52, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Wa State

There's a bunch of references to "Wa State" in the article without explanations of what exactly its status is. I had to do research by reading other articles to find out how it's essentially a self-governing state independent from Myanmar, which is important to know. It would be useful to have an explanation of what its status is in the context of this war after the first mention of Wa State. HappyWith (talk) 22:04, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Not sure if you are the one who added this but currently there's the following description on Wa State that seems to address your concern:

2022 monsoon season campaigns

"The KIA and the Wa State, a neutral de facto independent region of Myanmar, consolidated expanded territories." HollerithPunchCard (talk) 00:46, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Early sections

I'm not sure what the divides between the sections "New conflicts", "Onset of formal resistance", "Declaration of war", and "2021–2022 dry season campaigns" are supposed to be. I think a lot of this could be re-organized and sections combined to make it a bit clearer of a read. I think a lot of the earlier ones could be combined into a section called "early fighting" or something like that, with subsections to break it up.

It might also be useful for the reader to include an explanation of when the dry and moonsoon seasons begin and end, since that terminology is used so much in the article. HappyWith (talk) 22:18, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

@HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith Yeah truthfully, most of these section were things I made when cleaning it up from the timeline-listicle it was back in 2021: essentially, New conflicts is really about the emergence of Chin and Karenni as new ethnic fronts, the formal resistance is the emergence of new Bamar majority fights and the war stuff is the formal declaration and increased fighting afterwards.

Essentially, the pattern with the seasons is that you see more fighting in the dry season and I don't think I've been able to find much good analysis on that idea broadly, so didn't put much explanation so as not to engage in WP:OR. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 22:50, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Makes sense. I think reorganization will get much easier to do if the article is trimmed down a bit, which is what I'll work for now when I have time. There might also be analyses and retrospectives out there that have their own dividing-up of the timeline we could use. HappyWith (talk) 22:55, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Unconfirmed claims, organization

A lot of the bulk of this article is made up of claims about incidents and engagements from rebel groups. A lot of this should be cut out and replaced with more concrete reporting if possible. The minor and unconfirmed stuff belongs at Timeline of the Myanmar civil war (2021–present), not here.

This could bring down the extremely long length of all the sections and allow for more broad, big-picture chronology coverage that's more digestible to the reader. I think the current organization with all the subsections for each region is pretty hard to parse for an average reader, and reworking things would improve the quality of the article. HappyWith (talk) 22:35, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, one thing I've been meaning to do is to transfer a lot of 2022 stuff into the Timeline- hopefully will get to it later this week. As I kind of mentioned above- there's no real reason the article has to be organized chronologically by season. EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 22:55, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Great - this is pretty much what I had in mind too. HappyWith (talk) 23:22, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

It will be great if you can take the lead on this. I've had the same thoughts for awhile, but wasn't sure how best to tackle this beast. HollerithPunchCard (talk) 00:47, 13 December 2023 (UTC)