Talk:Liancourt Rocks: Difference between revisions
→Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2024: new section Tags: Reverted Disambiguation links added |
Rv gf, please do not copy the article here like that |
||
Line 276: | Line 276: | ||
In three parts, it is correct to write 'East Sea of Korea' before or after every 'Sea of Japan'. [[User:Sdhlaw|Sdhlaw]] ([[User talk:Sdhlaw|talk]]) 20:37, 14 June 2024 (UTC) |
In three parts, it is correct to write 'East Sea of Korea' before or after every 'Sea of Japan'. [[User:Sdhlaw|Sdhlaw]] ([[User talk:Sdhlaw|talk]]) 20:37, 14 June 2024 (UTC) |
||
: No. Please see [[Talk:Liancourt Rocks/Archive 22#Add (East sea)]] for the current consensus on this. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 21:15, 14 June 2024 (UTC) |
: No. Please see [[Talk:Liancourt Rocks/Archive 22#Add (East sea)]] for the current consensus on this. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 21:15, 14 June 2024 (UTC) |
||
== Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2024 == |
|||
{{edit semi-protected|Liancourt Rocks|answered=no}} |
|||
[[User:Goodmanb|Goodmanb]] ([[User talk:Goodmanb|talk]]) 15:42, 11 July 2024 (UTC){{Short description|Group of disputed islets in the Sea of Japan}} |
|||
{{For|the naming and territorial dispute surrounding these rocks|Liancourt Rocks dispute}} |
|||
{{Pp-semi-indef}} |
|||
{{Pp-move|small=yes}} |
|||
{{Redirect-multi|2|Dokdo|Takeshima}} |
|||
<!--************************************************************************* |
|||
----This is a controversial topic. Before making substantial changes, please |
|||
----read the talk page and make sure to edit only in a spirit of cooperation. |
|||
----This article is currently under special administrative surveillance and |
|||
----absolutely no edit-warring will be tolerated. Users who make more than |
|||
----one revert in a 24-hour period will be blocked. Incivility and edit- |
|||
----warring will not be tolerated, and all reverts must be discussed fully |
|||
----on the talk page before you revert. Not after! Thank you. |
|||
************************************************************************--> |
|||
{{Use dmy dates|date=May 2015}} |
|||
{{Infobox islands |
|||
| disputed = yes |
|||
| name = Liancourt Rocks |
|||
| plural = yes |
|||
| other_names = Liancourt Islets, Liancourt Islands, Takeshima, Dokdo, Tok Islets, Hornet Islands, Kajido, Sambongdo |
|||
| image_name = Location-of-Liancourt-rocks-en.png |
|||
| image_size = 300px |
|||
| image_caption = Location of the Liancourt Rocks in the Sea of Japan between Japan and South Korea |
|||
| image_map = Liancourt Rocks Map.svg |
|||
| location = [[Sea of Japan]] |
|||
| coordinates = {{Coord|37|14|30|N|131|52|0|E|display=inline}} |
|||
| total_islands = 91 (37 permanent land) |
|||
| major_islands = East Islet, West Islet |
|||
| area_ha = 18.745 |
|||
| area_footnotes = <br />'''East Islet:''' {{convert|7.33|ha|acre}}<br />'''West Islet:''' {{convert|8.864|ha|acre}} |
|||
| elevation_m = 169 |
|||
| highest_mount = West Islet |
|||
| country = {{flag|South Korea}} |
|||
| country_admin_divisions_title = County |
|||
| country_admin_divisions = [[Ulleung County]], [[Gyeongsangbuk-do|North Gyeongsang]] |
|||
| country1 = {{flag|Japan}} |
|||
| country1_admin_divisions_title = Town |
|||
| country1_admin_divisions = [[Okinoshima, Shimane|Okinoshima]], [[Shimane Prefecture|Shimane]] (Japan) |
|||
| country2 = {{flag|North Korea}} |
|||
| country2_admin_divisions_title = County |
|||
| country2_admin_divisions = [[Ulleung County]], [[Gyeongsangbuk-do|North Gyeongsang]] |
|||
| population = Approximately 34<ref name="residents">{{cite web | url=https://dokdo.mofa.go.kr/eng/introduce/residence.jsp| title=Dokdo Residents| access-date=February 17, 2021| publisher=Gyeongsangbuk-do Province}}</ref> |
|||
}} |
|||
The '''Liancourt Rocks''',<ref>{{harvnb|Fern|2005|p=78}}: "Since the end of World War II, Japan and Korea have contested ownership of these islets, given the name Liancourt Rocks by French whalers in the mid-1800s and called that by neutral observers to this day".</ref> also known by their Korean name of '''Dokdo'''{{efn|{{korean|hangul=독도|hanja={{linktext|lang=ko-Hant|獨島}}}}; {{IPA-ko|tok̚t͈o|IPA}}; {{lit|solitary island[s]' or 'lonely island[s]}}.}} or their Japanese name of '''Takeshima''',{{efn|{{lang-ja|竹島}}; {{IPA-ja|takeɕima|IPA}}; {{lit|bamboo island[s]}}.{{sfn|BBC staff|2006}}}} are a group of [[islet]]s in the [[Sea of Japan]] between the [[Korean peninsula]] and the [[Japanese archipelago]] administered by South Korea. The Liancourt Rocks comprise two main islets and 35 smaller rocks; the total surface area of the islets is {{convert|0.187554|km2|acre}} and the highest elevation of {{convert|168.5|m|ft}} is <!-- found at an unnamed location --> on the West Islet.{{sfn|Gyeongsangbuk-do Province|2017b}}{{Dead link|date=March 2023}} The Liancourt Rocks lie in rich [[fishing grounds]] that may contain large deposits of [[natural gas]].{{sfn|BBC staff|2008}} The English name ''Liancourt Rocks'' is derived from {{Lang|fr|Le Liancourt}},{{efn|Pronounced {{IPA-fr|lə ljɑ̃kuʁ|}}; named in honor of [[François Alexandre Frédéric, duc de La Rochefoucauld-Liancourt|François Alexandre Frédéric]], Duke of [[La Rochefoucauld, Charente|La Rochefoucauld]] and [[Liancourt]].}} the name of a French [[whaling]] ship that came close to being wrecked on the rocks in 1849.{{sfn|Kirk|2008}} |
|||
On January 18, 1952, the Syngman Rhee Line was illegally established by South Korea, and on February 11, a Japanese ship was shot by the South Korean side, killing one sailor, and on March 2, the first captured ship was launched. Ta. According to the History of Japan-Korea Fisheries Countermeasures Movement, the total number of Japanese casualties caused by the Yi Line was 328 Japanese fishing boats seized, 3,929 seafarers detained, and 44 casualties. Although the Syngman Rhee Line was abolished by the Japan-Korea Fisheries Agreement in 1965, the ``Shimane Shimbun'' dated November 6 of the same year reported that the damage caused by the Syngman Rhee Line to Shimane Prefecture was 121 people detained and 11 boats captured. It is written as a ship. It has been illegally occupied by South Korean police since 1952.<ref>The Ishimi Times talks about the Syngman Rhee Line</ref> |
|||
While South Korea controls the islets, its sovereignty over them is [[Liancourt Rocks dispute|contested]] by Japan. North Korea also claims the territory. South Korea classifies the islets as Dokdo-[[Ri (administrative division)|ri]], Ulleung-[[Eup (administrative division)|eup]], [[Ulleung County]], [[North Gyeongsang Province]],<ref>{{cite web|trans-title=Act 1395 amending Chapter 14-2, Ri-Administration under Ulleung County, Local Autonomy Law, Ulleung County |language=ko-kr |script-title=ko:울릉군리의명칭과구역에관한조례 [개정 2000. 4. 7 조례 제1395호] |url=http://www.elis.go.kr/newlaib/laibLaws/h1126/laws.jsp?lawsNum=47940113226001&scType=title&scValue=%BF%EF%B8%AA%B1%BA%20%B8%AE%C0%C7%20%B8%ED%C4%AA%B0%FA%20%B1%B8%BF%AA%BF%A1%20%B0%FC%C7%D1%20%C1%B6%B7%CA&isClose=0&kind=1 }} "{{lang|ko-Hang|2000년 4월 7일 울릉군조례 제1395호로 독도리가 신설됨에 따라 독도의 행정구역이 종전의 경상북도 울릉군 울릉읍 도동리 산42~76번지에서 경상북도 울릉군 울릉읍 독도리 산1~37번지로 변경 됨}}." <br />Translation: "Pursuant to Act 1395 amending Chapter 14-2, Ri-Administration under Ulleung County, Local Autonomy Law, Ulleung County, passed March 20, 2000, enacted April 7, 2000, the administrative designation of Dokdo addresses as 42 to 76, Dodong-ri, Ulleung-eup, Ulleung County, North Gyungsang Province, is changed to address 1 to 37, Dokdo-ri, Ulleung-eup, Ulleung County, North Gyungsang Province." {{cite web|url=http://www.dokdomuseum.go.kr/board/history/list.php |language=ko-kr |script-title=ko:조회 |access-date=12 September 2008 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20090301043336/http://www.dokdomuseum.go.kr/board/history/list.php |archive-date= 1 March 2009 |df=dmy }}</ref> while Japan classifies the islands as part of [[Okinoshima, Shimane|Okinoshima]], [[Oki District, Shimane|Oki District]], [[Shimane Prefecture]]. |
|||
==Geography== |
|||
{{multiple image |
|||
| align = right |
|||
| direction = vertical |
|||
| image1 = Dokdo-West-Isle.JPG |
|||
| alt1 = A steep, rocky island surrounded by dark blue sea |
|||
| image2 = Dokdo-East-Isle.JPG |
|||
| alt2 = A round rocky island, with an empty port. Seagulls block some of the frame. |
|||
| caption2 = The West island ''(top)'' and the East island ''(bottom)'' |
|||
}}The Liancourt Rocks consist of two main islets and numerous surrounding rocks. The two main islets, called ''Seodo'' ({{korean|hangul=서도|hanja={{linktext|lang=ko-Hant|西|島}}}}, "Western Island") and ''Dongdo'' ({{korean|labels=no|hangul=동도|hanja={{linktext|lang=ko-Hant|東|島}}}}, "Eastern Island") in Korean and ''Ojima'' ({{linktext|lang=ja-Hant|男|島}}, "Male Island") and ''Mejima'' ({{linktext|lang=ja-Hant|女|島}}, "Female Island") in Japanese, are {{convert|151|m|ft}} apart.{{sfn|Gyeongsangbuk-do Province|2017b}} The Western Island is the larger of the two, with a wider base and higher peak, while the Eastern Island offers more usable surface area. |
|||
Altogether, there are about 90 islets and reefs,{{sfn|Gyeongsangbuk-do Province|2017b}}{{Dead link|date=March 2023}} [[volcanic rock]]s formed in the [[Cenozoic]] era, more specifically 4.6 to 2.5 million years ago. A total of 37 of these islets are recognized as permanent land.{{Verify source|date=May 2015}} |
|||
The total area of the islets is about {{convert|187,554|m2|acre}}, with their highest point at {{convert|168.5|m|ft}} on the West Islet.{{sfn|Gyeongsangbuk-do Province|2017b}} The western islet is about {{convert|88,740|m2|acre}}; the eastern islet is about {{convert|73,300|m2|acre}}.{{sfn|Gyeongsangbuk-do Province|2017b}} The western islet consists of a single peak and features many caves along the coastline. The cliffs of the eastern islet are about {{convert|10|to|20|m|ft}} high. There are two large caves giving access to the sea, as well as a crater.{{Verify source|date=May 2015}} |
|||
In 2006, a geologist reported that the islets formed 4.5 million years ago and are (in a [[geological timescale|geological sense]]) quickly eroding.<ref>{{cite news |url=http://news.naver.com/main/read.nhn?mode=LSD&mid=sec&sid1=102&oid=001&aid=0001483400 |language=ko-kr |script-title=ko:"독도ㆍ울릉도 `침몰하고 있다'"<손영관교수> |newspaper=[[Yonhap News Agency]] |date=1 December 2006 |access-date=1 January 2015 |url-status=live |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160122194337/http://news.naver.com/main/read.nhn?mode=LSD&mid=sec&sid1=102&oid=001&aid=0001483400 |archive-date= Jan 22, 2016 }}</ref> |
|||
== Tourism == |
|||
Restricted public access to the rocks for a variety of purposes is provided by ferry from [[Ulleungdo|Ulleng Island]].<ref>{{Cite web |title=독도 : 독도입도안내 페이지 입니다.아름다운 신비의 섬 - 울릉군 |url=http://www.ulleung.go.kr/ko/page.htm?mnu_uid=1649 |access-date=2022-10-13 |website=www.ulleung.go.kr |archive-date=13 October 2022 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20221013171217/http://www.ulleung.go.kr/ko/page.htm?mnu_uid=1649 |url-status=dead }}</ref> In 2022, 280,312 tourists visited the islands, averaging 500 visitors per day.<ref name="residents" /> |
|||
==Distances== |
|||
The Liancourt Rocks are located at about {{Coord|37|14||N|131|52||E}}.{{sfn|Gyeongsangbuk-do Province|2017c}} The western islet is located at {{Coord|37|14|31|N|131|51|55|E |name=West Islet}} and the Eastern Islet is located at {{Coord|37|14|27|N|131|52|10|E |name=East Islet}}. |
|||
The Liancourt Rocks are situated at a distance of {{convert|211|km|nmi}} from the main island of Japan ([[Honshu]]) and {{convert|216.8|km|nmi}} from mainland South Korea. The nearest Japanese island, [[Oki Islands]], is at a distance of {{convert|157|km|nmi}},<ref name="mofa index" /> and the nearest Korean island, [[Ulleungdo]], is {{convert|87.4|km|nmi}}.{{sfn|BAEK In-ki|SHIM Mun-bo|Korea Maritime Institute|2006|pp=20–22}}<ref name="mofa index">{{cite web|url=http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/takeshima/index.html|title=The Issue of Takeshima|publisher=Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan|access-date=26 October 2012}}</ref> |
|||
==Climate== |
|||
[[File:Dokdo 20080628-panorama.jpg|right|thumb|The Liancourt Rocks viewed from the North]] |
|||
Owing to their location and small size, the Liancourt Rocks can have harsh weather. If the [[Swell (ocean)|swell]] is greater than 3 to 5 metres, then landing is not possible, so on average ferries can only dock about once in forty days.{{sfn|Gyeo ngbuk Province|2001b}} Overall, the climate is warm and humid, and heavily influenced by warm sea currents. Precipitation is high throughout the year (annual average—{{convert|1383.4|mm|in|disp=or}}), with occasional snowfall.{{sfn|Gyeongsangbuk-do Province|2017a}} Fog is common. In summer, southerly winds dominate. The water around the islets is about {{convert|10|C|F}} in early spring, when the water is coldest, warming to about {{convert|24|C|F}} in late summer. |
|||
==Ecology== |
|||
[[File:Sealion in Takesima,Japan(June,1934).jpg|thumb|[[Japanese sea lion]]s at Liancourt Rocks during a Japanese [[Seal hunting|sealing operation]] in 1934]] |
|||
The islets are volcanic rocks, with only a thin layer of soil and moss.{{sfn|Gyeo ngbuk Province|2001a}} About 49 plant species, 107 bird species, and 93 insect species have been found to inhabit the islets, in addition to local marine life with 160 algal and 368 invertebrate species identified.<ref>{{cite web|language=ko |script-title=ko:독도 자연생태계 정밀조사결과(요약)|trans-title=A comprehensive survey of the natural ecosystems of Liancourt Rocks (synopsys)|url=http://epic.kdi.re.kr/epic/epic_view.jsp?num=81035&menu=1|url-status=dead|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110722141608/http://epic.kdi.re.kr/epic/epic_view.jsp?num=81035&menu=1|archive-date=22 July 2011|df=dmy-all}}</ref> Although between 1,100 and 1,200 litres of fresh water flow daily, desalinization plants have been installed on the islets for human consumption because existing spring water suffers from guano contamination.{{citation needed|date=May 2015}} Since the early 1970s trees and some types of flowers were planted.{{citation needed|date=May 2015}} According to historical records, there used to be trees indigenous to Liancourt Rocks, which have supposedly been wiped out by [[overharvesting]] and fires caused by bombing drills over the islets.{{efn|"There are records attesting to the existence of trees [on Liancourt Rocks] in the past" {{harv|BAEK In-ki|SHIM Mun-bo|Korea Maritime Institute|2006|p=48}} }} A recent investigation, however, identified ten [[Euonymus|spindle trees]] aged 100–120 years.<ref>{{cite web |language=ko |trans-title=Indigenous Spindle Tree Colony Found on Liancourt Rocks |script-title=ko:독도 자생 사철나무 군락 첫 발견 |url=http://www.korean.net/blog/main/index.jsp?blID=leehayo&ccID=260&SN=22}} {{Dead link|date = August 2012}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |language=ko |script-title=ko:독도 자생 사철나무 100년 이상 된 자생식물 |
|||
|trans-title=Liancourt Rock Spindle Trees Over 100 Years Old |url=http://www.dokdocenter.org/dokdo_news/index.cgi?action=detail&number=7489&thread=19r02}}</ref> [[Cetacean]]s such as [[Minke whale]]s, [[orca]]s, and [[dolphin]]s are known to migrate through these areas.<ref>{{Cite journal|year=2007 |language=ko |script-title=ko:독도수비 해경, 그물걸린 범고래 구조 - 멸종위기 해양생물 보호 적극적인 조치 기대 |url=http://www.enviroasia.info/K/?p=1259 |journal=K07011002K |page=ENVIROASIA |access-date=10 June 2014 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150119103856/http://www.enviroasia.info/K/?p=1259 |archive-date=19 January 2015 |df=dmy }}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal|translator=Koike T.|year=2007 |language=ja |script-title=ja:独島警備の海洋警察、網にかかったシャチ救出 |url=http://www.enviroasia.info/J/?p=6168 |journal=K07011002J |page=ENVIROASIA |access-date=10 June 2014 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140714121130/http://www.enviroasia.info/J/?p=6168 |archive-date=14 July 2014 |df=dmy }}</ref><ref>{{cite web |date=2017 |url=http://www.netongs.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=103971 |script-title=ko:"동해 고래, 한미관계 뿐 아니라 독도 역사와도 연결" |access-date=August 21, 2017}}</ref> |
|||
===Pollution and environmental destruction=== |
|||
Records of the human impact on the Liancourt Rocks before the late 20th century are scarce, although both Japanese and Koreans claim to have felled trees and killed [[Japanese sea lion]]s there for many decades.<ref>국민일보 (Gookmin Daily). "독도‘실효적 지배’새 근거 (New Evidence of effective control), 1890년 이전부터 독도서 강치잡이 (Sea lion hunting before 1890) [26 July 2006"]</ref><ref>Japan: [http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/takeshima/position.html Outline of Takeshima Issue]</ref> |
|||
There are serious pollution concerns in the seas surrounding the Liancourt Rocks. The sewage water treatment system established on the islets has malfunctioned, so sewage produced by inhabitants of the Liancourt Rocks, such as [[Korea Coast Guard|South Korean Coast Guards]] and lighthouse staff, is being dumped directly into the ocean. Significant water pollution has been observed; sea water has turned milky white, sea vegetation is progressively dying off, and calcification of coral reefs is spreading. The pollution is also causing [[Biodiversity loss|loss of biodiversity]] in the surrounding seas. In November 2004, eight tons of malodorous [[sludge]] was being dumped into the ocean every day.<ref name=" imaeil">{{cite web |work=Imaeil |date=28 September 2007 |language=ko |script-title=ko:독도 오수정화시설이 동해바다 오염 주범? |url=http://www.imaeil.com/sub_news/sub_news_view.php?news_id=42521&yy=2007 |access-date=15 April 2009 |archive-date=2 April 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150402110419/http://www.imaeil.com/sub_news/sub_news_view.php?news_id=42521&yy=2007 |url-status=dead }}</ref> Efforts have since been made by both public<ref>{{cite web|language=ko |trans-title=Three-Month Cleanup for Dokdo's Marine Garbage Starts from June 2 |script-title=ko:독도 바다쓰레기 청소 6월2일부터 석달간 |url=http://news.naver.com/main/read.nhn?mode=LSD&mid=sec&sid1=102&oid=003&aid=0002703591}}</ref> and private<ref>{{cite web |language=ko |script-title=ko:나무 심고 오물 줍고…아름다운 ‘독도 사랑’ |url=http://www.imaeil.com/sub_news/sub_news_view.php?news_id=27210&yy=2010 |date=5 July 2010 |access-date=28 September 2010 |archive-date=2 April 2015 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20150402121815/http://www.imaeil.com/sub_news/sub_news_view.php?news_id=27210&yy=2010 |url-status=dead }}</ref> organizations to help curb the level of pollution surrounding the Rocks. |
|||
==Construction== |
|||
South Korea has carried out construction work on the Liancourt Rocks; by 2009, the islands had a lighthouse, helicopter pad,<ref>[http://vn.vladnews.ru/issue592/Special_reports/Dokdo_Islands_land_of_contention Vladivostok News report] {{webarchive|url=https://web.archive.org/web/20090823031639/http://vn.vladnews.ru/issue592/Special_reports/Dokdo_Islands_land_of_contention |date=23 August 2009 }}</ref> and a police barracks.{{sfn|Choe|2008}} In 2007, two [[desalination plant]]s were built capable of producing 28 tons of clean water every day.{{sfn|KOIS staff|2007a}} Both of the major South Korean telecommunications companies have installed cellular telephone towers on the islets.{{sfn|KOIS staff|2007}} |
|||
==History== |
|||
[[File:The oldest maps of Liancourt Rocks.jpg|upright=1.2|thumb|Japanese map depicting the Liancourt Rocks in "Matsushima Ezu(松嶋絵図)", 1656, ([[Tottori Prefecture]])]] |
|||
===Whaling=== |
|||
U.S. and [[France|French]] [[whaler|whaleship]]s cruised for [[North Pacific right whale|right whale]]s off the rocks between 1849 and 1892.<ref>''Cambria'', of New Bedford, Apr. 29, 1849, Nicholson Whaling Collection; ''Cape Horn Pigeon'', of New Bedford, Apr. 19, 1892, Kendall Whaling Museum.</ref> |
|||
===Demographics and economy=== |
|||
[[File:Dokdo-Watchtower-2.JPG|thumb|right|The base that houses South Korean police guards on the Liancourt Rocks' East Islet]] |
|||
In February 2017, there were two civilian residents, two government officials, six lighthouse managers, and 40 members of the coast guard living on the islets.<ref name="residents"/> Since the South Korean coast guard was sent to the islets, civilian travel has been subject to South Korean government approval; they have stated that the reason for this is that the islet group is designated as a nature reserve.<ref>On 13 December 1997 the "Special Act on the Preservation of Ecosystem in Island Areas Including Dokdo Island" was enacted by the South Korean parliament. The title of the Natural Monument No. 336, the Dokdo Seaweed Habitat, was changed to the Dokdo National Nature Reserve in December 1999. {{Cite web|title=Dokdo in History: Chronology |publisher=The National Assembly of the Republic of Korea |url=https://korea.assembly.go.kr:447/dokdo/history_02.jsp }}</ref> |
|||
In March 1965, Choi Jong-duk moved from the nearby [[Ulleungdo]] to the islets to make a living from fishing. He also helped install facilities from May 1968. In 1981, Choi Jong-duk changed his administrative address to the Liancourt Rocks, making himself the first person to officially live there. He died there in September 1987. His son-in-law, Cho Jun-ki, and his wife also resided there from 1985 until they moved out in 1992. Meanwhile, in 1991, Kim Sung-do and Kim Shin-yeol transferred to the islets as permanent residents, still continuing to live there. In October 2018, Kim Sung-do died, thus Kim Shin-yeol is the last civilian resident still living on the islands.<ref>{{Cite news|author=Lee Tae-hee |title=Widow to remain sole Dokdo resident, authorities confirm |date=13 February 2019 |newspaper=[[The Korea Herald]] |url=http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20190213000563 }}</ref><ref>{{Cite news|url=https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/14/asia/south-korea-japan-disputed-islands-one-resident-intl/index.html |last1=McKirdy |first1=Euan |last2=Jeong |first2=Sophie |title=Widow, 81, sole resident of remote island disputed by South Korea and Japan |publisher=CNN |date=15 February 2019 }}</ref><ref>{{Cite news |url=https://www.koreaworldtimes.com/topics/news/9882/|script-title=ja:竹島人口は7万人 4年で倍増 日本人17人も住民登録している!?|newspaper=KoreaWorldTimes |date=2021-08-16|language=ja|access-date=2021-10-06}}</ref> |
|||
The South Korean government gave its approval to allow 1,597 visitors to visit the islets in 2004. Since March 2005, more tourists have received approval to visit. The South Korean government lets up to 70 tourists land at any given time; one ferry provides rides to the islets every day.{{sfn|Ha|2008}} Tour companies charge around 350,000 [[South Korean won|Korean won]] per person (about US$310 {{As of|2019|lc=on}}).<ref name="vis">{{Cite web|url=http://www.dokdo.go.kr/eng/html/introduction/living.jsp |archive-url=https://archive.today/20130111204054/http://www.dokdo.go.kr/eng/html/introduction/living.jsp |archive-date=11 January 2013 |url-status=dead |title=Life in Dokdo |publisher=Cyber Dokdo of Korea }}</ref> |
|||
===Sovereignty dispute=== |
|||
{{Main|Liancourt Rocks dispute}} |
|||
Sovereignty over the islands has been an ongoing point of contention in [[Japan–South Korea relations]]. There are conflicting interpretations about the historical state of sovereignty over the islets. |
|||
South Korean claims are partly based on references to an island called ''[[Usando|Usan-do]]'' ({{Korean|hangul=우산도|hanja={{linktext|lang=ko-Hant|于|山|島}}/{{linktext|lang=ko-Hant|亐|山|島}}}}) in various medieval historical records, maps, and encyclopedia such as ''[[Samguk Sagi]]'', ''[[Annals of Joseon Dynasty]]'', ''Dongguk Yeoji Seungnam'', and ''Dongguk munhon bigo''. According to the South Korean view, these refer to today's Liancourt Rocks.{{citation needed|date=April 2017}} Japanese researchers of these documents have claimed the various references to Usan-do refer at different times to [[Jukdo (island)|Jukdo]], its neighboring island [[Ulleungdo]], or a non-existent island between Ulleungdo and Korea.{{efn|"Such description ... rather reminds us of Utsuryo Island" (para. 2); "A study ... criticizes ... that Usan Island and Utsuryo Island are two names for one island." (para. 3); and "that island does not exist at all in reality" (para. 4{{snd}} {{cite web|url=http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/takeshima/pamphlet_e.pdf |title=10 Issues of Takeshima, MOFA (Article 2) |date=February 2008 |publisher=[[Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Japan)|Ministry of Foreign Affairs]] (Japan) |page=4 |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080913071653/http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/takeshima/pamphlet_e.pdf |archive-date=13 September 2008 }} }} The first printed usage of the name ''Dokdo'' was in a Japanese log book in 1904.<ref>{{cite web |url=https://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/japans-takeshima-x-files-i.html |title="Logbooks of the Japanese Warship Niitaka September 25th 1904"<!--<軍艦新高行動日誌>--> |website=Dokdo Takeshima The Historical Facts of the Dispute|date=1 September 2008 }}</ref> |
|||
North Korea also regards the islands as Korean, and as it claims the entirety of [[Korea]], North Korea claims the islands as its own and contests Japan's claim to the islands alongside South Korea.<ref>{{cite book|last1=Agency|first1=United States Central Intelligence|last2=Office|first2=Government Publications|title=The World Factbook 2016-17|date=2016|publisher=Government Printing Office|isbn=9780160933271|pages=406|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=HfywxU2EnFwC&pg=PA406|language=en}}</ref> |
|||
<gallery widths="200px" heights="135px"> |
|||
File:South Korean "Tokto" postage stamps, c. 1954.png|South Korean stamps depicting the Liancourt Rocks from 1954 |
|||
File:Dokdo-Police boat.jpg|A South Korean police boat approaches the dock on the Liancourt Rocks' East Islet. |
|||
</gallery> |
|||
=== Natural Monument of South Korea === |
|||
The Liancourt Rocks were designated as a breeding ground for [[band-rumped storm petrel]]s, [[streaked shearwater]]s, and [[black-tailed gull]]s as [[Natural monuments of South Korea|Natural Monument]] #336 of South Korea on November 29, 1982.<ref>{{Cite web |date=2 December 1982 |title=문화재(천연기념물)보호구역지정 |url=http://theme.archives.go.kr/viewer/common/archWebViewer.do?singleData=N&archiveEventId=0028139917#19}}</ref> |
|||
== See also == |
|||
{{Portal|Politics|Japan|South Korea|Islands}} |
|||
* [[Dokdo Volunteer Garrison]] |
|||
* [[Rusk documents]] |
|||
{{Clear}} |
|||
==Notes== |
|||
{{Notelist}} |
|||
==Inline citations== |
|||
{{Reflist|30em}} |
|||
== References == |
|||
*{{Cite news|agency=島根県 |title=石見タイムズ |date=2012-02-01 |url=https://www.pref.shimane.lg.jp/admin/pref/takeshima/web-takeshima/takeshima04/takeshima04-1/takeshima-042401.html }} |
|||
* {{citation|author=BAEK In-ki |author2=SHIM Mun-bo |author3=Korea Maritime Institute |title=A study of Distance between Ulleungdo and Dokdo and Ocean Currents (울릉도와 독도의 거리와 해류에 관한 연구) |date=December 2006 |url=http://library.kmi.re.kr/w03_01e.asp?gs_DType=m&gs_DControlNo=52190 |archive-url=https://archive.today/20130112034708/http://library.kmi.re.kr/w03_01e.asp?gs_DType=m&gs_DControlNo=52190 |url-status=dead |archive-date=12 January 2013 |pages=20–22 |isbn=978-89-7998-340-1 }} |
|||
* {{citation |author=BBC staff |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4925258.stm |title=Seoul and Tokyo hold island talks |publisher=BBC |date=20 April 2006}} |
|||
* {{citation |author=BBC staff |date=27 July 2008 |url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7511065.stm |title=Island row hits Japanese condoms|work=BBC News}} |
|||
* {{citation |last=Fern |first=Sean |date=Winter 2005 |title=Tokdo or Takeshima? The International Law of Territorial Acquisition in the Japan-Korea Island Dispute |journal=Stanford Journal of East Asian Affairs |volume=5 |number=1}} |
|||
* {{citation |author=Gyeongsangbuk-do Province |date=28 September 2017a |url=http://en.dokdo.go.kr/pages/s03/page.html?mc=7180 |title=Climate |website=Dokdo, Beautiful island of Korea |publisher=Korean Government }} |
|||
* {{citation |author=Gyeongsangbuk-do Province |date=28 September 2017b |url=http://en.dokdo.go.kr/pages/s01/page.html?mc=7226 |title=Composition |website=Dokdo, Beautiful island of Korea |publisher=Korean Government }} |
|||
* {{citation |author=Gyeongsangbuk-do Province |date=28 September 2017c |url=http://en.dokdo.go.kr/pages/s01/page.html?mc=7225 |title=Location |website=Dokdo, Beautiful island of Korea |publisher=Korean Government }} |
|||
* {{citation |author=Gyeo ngbuk Province |year=2001a |url=http://en.dokdo.go.kr/pages/sub01/page.html?mc=0082 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140729172424/http://en.dokdo.go.kr/pages/sub01/page.html?mc=0082 |url-status=dead |archive-date=2014-07-29 |title=Natural Environment |website=Cyber Dokdo |publisher=Korean Government }} |
|||
* {{citation |author=Gyeo ngbuk Province |year=2001b |url=http://en.dokdo.go.kr/pages/sub01/page.html?mc=0093 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140729172446/http://en.dokdo.go.kr/pages/sub01/page.html?mc=0093 |url-status=dead |archive-date=2014-07-29 |title=Visit Dokdo |website=Cyber Dokdo |publisher=Korean Government }} |
|||
* {{citation|last=Ha |first=Michael |date=26 August 2008 |url=https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/special/2009/01/177_30015.html |title=A Unique Trip to Dokdo—Islets in the News |newspaper=[[The Korea Times]] |url-status=dead |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20160304065204/https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/special/2009/01/177_30015.html |archive-date=4 March 2016 |df=dmy }} |
|||
* {{citation |last=Kirk |first=Donald |date=26 July 2008 |url= http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/JG26Dh01.html |archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20090301001613/http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/JG26Dh01.html |url-status= dead |archive-date= 1 March 2009 |title=Seoul has desert island dreams |work= Asia Times Online }} |
|||
* {{citation |author=KOIS staff |date=12 January 2007 |url=http://www.korea.net/News/News/NewsView.asp?serial_no=20070111037&part=109&SearchDay= |title=Cell phones give Korean ring to Dokdo |publisher=[[Korea.net]]|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20090302011635/http://www.korea.net/News/News/NewsView.asp?serial_no=20070111037&part=109&SearchDay= |archive-date=2 March 2009}} |
|||
* {{citation |author=KOIS staff |date=12 June 2007a |url=http://www.korea.net/news/news/NewsView.asp?serial_no=20070612020&part=102&SearchDay= |title=Doosan pours big drink for Dokdo residents |publisher=[[Korea.net]]|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20090302022720/http://www.korea.net/news/news/NewsView.asp?serial_no=20070612020&part=102&SearchDay= |archive-date=2 March 2009}} |
|||
* {{citation |last=Choe |date=28 August 2008 |first=Sang-Hun |url=http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/28/asia/island.php |title=A fierce Korean pride in a lonely group of islets |newspaper=International Herald Tribune |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080828200807/http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/28/asia/island.php |archive-date=28 August 2008}} |
|||
* {{citation |author=Yonhap staff |date=20 July 2011 |url=http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2011/07/30/34/0301000000AEN20110730001800320F.HTML |title=N. Korea denounces Japan's vow to visit island near Dokdo |publisher=[[Yonhap News Agency]]}} |
|||
==External links== |
|||
{{Commons category|Liancourt Rocks}} |
|||
{{Wikivoyage|Liancourt Rocks}} |
|||
'''South Korea''' |
|||
* [http://k-dokdo.com/english/index.do Dokdo Official Website] |
|||
* [https://web.archive.org/web/20080721032540/http://english.dokdohistory.com/ Dokdo Research Institute] (Korea) |
|||
* [http://dokdo.mofa.go.kr/eng/dokdo/reason.jsp/ The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Korea] |
|||
**{{cite web|author=대한민국외교부|author-link=Ministry of Foreign Affairs (South Korea)|title=Dokdo, Beautiful Island of Korea|url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEF9FDh4nZc| archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/varchive/youtube/20211117/mEF9FDh4nZc| archive-date=2021-11-17 | url-status=live|date=2014-04-22|language=en|website=YouTube}}{{cbignore}} |
|||
'''Japan''' |
|||
* [http://www.cas.go.jp/jp/ryodo_eg/shiryo/takeshima/index.html "Takeshima Archives Potal"] ([[Cabinet Secretariat (Japan)|Cabinet Secretariat, Japan]]) |
|||
** [http://www.cas.go.jp/jp/ryodo_eg/report/takeshima.html "Commissioned Research Report on Archives of Takeshima"] Cabinet Secretariat, Japan |
|||
* [http://www.pref.shimane.lg.jp/soumu/takesima_eng/ "Takeshima"] ([[Shimane Prefecture|Shimane prefectural]] office, Japan) |
|||
* [http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/takeshima/index.html Japanese Territory / "Takeshima"] ([[Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Japan)|MOFA, Japan]]) |
|||
** [https://web.archive.org/web/20080913071653/http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/takeshima/pamphlet_e.pdf "10 Issues of Takeshima"] Northeast Asia Division, Asian and Oceanian Affairs Bureau, [[Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Japan)|MOFA, Japan]] (February 2008) |
|||
** [https://www.mofa.go.jp/files/000092147.pdf "TAKESHIMA: 10 points to understand the Takeshima Dispute"] Northeast Asia Division, Asian and Oceanian Affairs Bureau, MOFA, Japan (March 2014) |
|||
**{{cite web|author=MOFA, Japan |author-link=Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Japan) |title=Takeshima - Seeking a Solution based on Law and Dialogue |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYRHZX3m-bg | archive-url=https://ghostarchive.org/varchive/youtube/20211117/DYRHZX3m-bg| archive-date=2021-11-17 | url-status=live|date=October 31, 2013 |language=en |website=YouTube }}{{cbignore}} |
|||
{{Coord|37|14|30|N|131|52|00|E |type:landmark |display=title}} <!-- region:KR_ or JP --> |
|||
{{Territorial disputes in East and South Asia}} |
|||
{{Authority control}} |
|||
[[Category:Liancourt Rocks| ]] |
|||
[[Category:Anti-Japanese sentiment in Korea]] |
|||
[[Category:Anti-Korean sentiment in Japan]] |
|||
[[Category:Disputed islands of Asia]] |
|||
[[Category:Disputed territories in Asia]] |
|||
[[Category:Islands of the Sea of Japan]] |
|||
[[Category:Japan–South Korea border]] |
|||
[[Category:Territorial disputes of Japan]] |
|||
[[Category:Territorial disputes of South Korea]] |
|||
[[Category:Natural Monuments of South Korea]] |
|||
[[Category:Islands of North Gyeongsang Province]] |
|||
[[Category:Islands of Shimane Prefecture]] |
|||
[[Category:Ulleung County]] |
Revision as of 15:47, 11 July 2024
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Liancourt Rocks article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
|
This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:
|
On 7 April 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Dokdo. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
Requested move 15 March 2023
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) lettherebedarklight晚安 06:37, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
This section is pinned and will not be automatically archived. |
Liancourt Rocks → ? – No. There is no evidence that majority of English speakers call the island "Liancourt rocks". In fact, majority of English uses "Dokdo" or "Takeshima". Gerçois (talk) 12:16, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- Liancourt Rocks does not actually satisfy WP:COMMONNAME, considering Google ngram search result shows that Dokdo or Takeshima is more frequently used than Liancourt Rocks.
- Considering that 1. "takeshima" also refers to name of people in Japanese language, and 2. neither "Dokdo" nor "Takeshima" holds sway over each other, I think title of this article should be changed into "Dokdo/Takeshima" (in alphabetical order, which is used by number of WP:RS[1][2][3]) Gerçois (talk) 12:24, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose move. We are not dealing with this again. The page is where it is because of the naming dispute, and "Dokdo/Takeshima" gives theoretical precedence to Dokdo. O.N.R. (talk) 13:47, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- oppose unless someone has another good neutral name this is going to end up being a trash fire—blindlynx 19:56, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Blindlynx I dokdo/Tekeshima in alphabetical order because Liancourt rock is not a common name Gerçois (talk) 19:22, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose because renaming the article Dokdo or Takeshima will inherently make it less NPOV. Shadow of the Starlit Sky (talk) 20:11, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Shadow of the Starlit Sky i propose dokdo/Tekeshima in alphabetical order because it is neutral Gerçois (talk) 19:08, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- But then, doing that can lead to some believing the Korean POV is more important. I just wanted to note that in the past people have switched around Liancourt Rocks to Dokdo/Takeshima to WP:POVPUSH and make WP:DISRUPTIVE edits, and I don't want any of that happening here. Not to mention that writing all those slashes while saying "Dokdo/Takeshima" will reduce readability. Thus, I oppose. Shadow of the Starlit Sky (talk) 19:43, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- If you want proof I can provide some diffs if needed. Shadow of the Starlit Sky (talk) 19:44, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Shadow of the Starlit Sky yes please Gerçois (talk) 19:45, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- I've found a few diffs of POV edits (not only switching around Dokdo/Takeshima, but some of them also show people switching around East Sea/Sea of Japan)
- [1] (not really dokdo but more east sea/sea of japan)
- [2]
- [3] (this one is an especially good examples of WP:DISRUPTIVE editing via removing Takeshima)
- [4] (Sea of Japan)
- [5]
- Shadow of the Starlit Sky (talk) 04:22, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Shadow of the Starlit Sky yes please Gerçois (talk) 19:45, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- If you want proof I can provide some diffs if needed. Shadow of the Starlit Sky (talk) 19:44, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- But then, doing that can lead to some believing the Korean POV is more important. I just wanted to note that in the past people have switched around Liancourt Rocks to Dokdo/Takeshima to WP:POVPUSH and make WP:DISRUPTIVE edits, and I don't want any of that happening here. Not to mention that writing all those slashes while saying "Dokdo/Takeshima" will reduce readability. Thus, I oppose. Shadow of the Starlit Sky (talk) 19:43, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Shadow of the Starlit Sky i propose dokdo/Tekeshima in alphabetical order because it is neutral Gerçois (talk) 19:08, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support Most of other disputed islands and boundary dispute use name for its current effective occupier, such as Falkland Islands and Senkaku Islands, and it perfectly follows current norm for WP:COMMONNAME, which is not violating NPOV. Because simply it is 'real' common name for calling. Look at authority files for librarians. Almost ALL of renowned national libraries and institutes uses name of islands along with its occupier, including the Library of Congress.[4][5] Is their any reason why this specific article should follow particularly different norm or rule? Which is not aligned to any of naming consensus for English Wikipedia? - SCMBD (talk) 05:16, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment I am somewhat sympathetic to the argument that "Liancourt Rock" isn't really the WP:COMMONNAME in English (it quite likely isn't), and I'm generally of the opinion that we should firmly base our geographical naming practices on "common usage", and in doing so discount all catering to national sensitivities and preferences or balancing between them (which is often misunderstood as a matter of "neutrality"). So, if it was indeed shown that some other name (say, "Dokdo") was indeed a lot more common, I'd be all for changing the name to that, and "neutrality" be damned. The problem is just, in this particular case it is exceptionally difficult, quite likely impossible, to demonstrate such a common usage. It certainly can't be done with simple Google searches or ngrams. Reasons include:
- "Dokdo" has multiple name variants difficult to search for ("Tokto", "Dok Islands", "Tok Islands", "Dok do", "Tok to", etc.).
- "Takeshima" is frequently used for different referents, mostly personal names.
- A large proportion of the web hits for "Dokdo" come from partisan sources – including multiple "patriotic" Korean websites actively created for the purpose of *promoting* the use of that name. All of these ought to be discarded from any reasonable search for what actual common usage in English is.
- So, to serve as a basis for a well-informed move decision, we'd need a careful, qualitative analysis of high-quality independent sources in English that deal with the islands in contexts independent of the naming/sovereignty dispute. Such an analysis should ideally be provided before a RM is started. The bare link to a single ngram as given in the nomination statement here isn't really that.
- As for the option of using a double name ("Dokdo/Takeshima"), I wouldn't exclude that in principle, if it really could be shown that that in fact comes closer to a "common name" usage, i.e. if reliable sources really used this or similar double references as a matter of routine. We had that solution in "Imia/Kardak" for a long time until recently, where I believe the case for such a "common name" status was much stronger than here, but it was changed to simple "Imia" recently, so reintroducing that solution here would probably be another uphill battle. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:03, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment But then, the problem is, some disruptive editors might just switch Dokdo and Takeshima around to subtly shift the POV and put WP:UNDUE weight on the Korean/Japanese POV. Putting "Dokdo/Takeshima" implies that the Korean claim is more correct while putting "Takeshima/Dokdo" implies that the Japanese claim is more correct. I just don't want disruptive editors to target this article, that's all.
- Shadow of the Starlit Sky (talk) 13:02, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- That is not a justified reason to prevent a rename of the article. There are many articles that receive even more attention than this one, but that doesn't provide an encyclopedic reason as to why Wikipedia should consider one name over another. If such repeated vandalism occurs, the solution should be to protect the page, not to alter the name of the page. :3 F4U (they/it) 16:37, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment I don't agree with the premise of your comment that the ngram results were influenced by "patriotic" Koreaan websites since Google ngram results are exclusively based on printed sources. Google ngram is even officially named "Google Books Ngram Viewer." [6]
- Corpus linguistics research is a systematic and neutral method of researching language usage, and Google ngram viewer at least provides a starting point. It would have been more preferable if there were other high-quality sources that meets requirements you suggested; But I believe that raising the standard of proof to such a high level, in absence of counter-evidence, requires a separate argument for it. 아이서울유 (talk) 10:21, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- Just to respond to your point about Google ngrams being based on books: that's true – but even in a book search, the two first pages of search results are flooded with items such as "Everything You Need To Know About Dokdo", "Dokdo: Korean Territory since the 6th Century", "The Story of Dokdo Residents", "Dokdo is Korean Territory", "Dokdo in Korea: A Story of Dokdo Island, a Korean Territory", "Dokdo in Korea: a story of Dokdo Island, a Korean territory", "The Dokdo Story", "A Story of Dokdo Island: A Korean Territory", "Love You, Dokdo: Historical Trip to Dokdo with a Mentor". All of this is essentially propaganda spam. Incidentally, almost all the other, serious-looking items on the search list are written by Korean authors or at least have Korean co-authors. While I wouldn't go as far as to say that is in itself an exclusion criterion, I do believe that too should make us quite wary about any assumptions regarding regular English usage. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:27, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- There are indeed political pamphlets written with intention of advancing a certain viewpoint, while I'm certainly sure that political pamphlet, slogan and phrases are part of ordinary English corpus as well as non-political one, the problem is "Dokdo" and "Takeshima" is still significantly more frequent than "Liancourt rocks" at least from late 2010s even if we exclude half of results from both "Dokdo" and "Takeshima". Both of them are more commonly used than "Liancourt rocks". The discrepancy is simply too large.
- Again, there is no reason to exclude "propaganda" materials from English corpus, since WP:COMMONNAME is mainly about ordinary usage of English language, regardless of political background. "Kyiv" would be a good example of such case.
- While I indeed believe there are merits of argument against the move based on WP:NPOV, WP:COMMONNAME does not provide such merits anymore. 아이서울유 (talk) 14:08, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- The main reason why specific term "Dokdo" looks like specifically promoted by Korean patriots in internet, is that term is brought out from Revised Romanization of Korean after year 2000 to call "Korean: 독도", when there was already ongoing fierce dispute by patriotic internet users between Japanese and Korean. The English term for "Korean: 독도" before year 2000 , by McCune–Reischauer style, is "Tokto".
- Another important point is that English users does not normally uses geographic term in foreign language, such as 'field', 'mountain' or 'island'. For example, the famous mountain in Japan "富士山" is read by Japanese as "Fujisan" or "Fujiyama" yet it is called Mount Fuji by English, as the "Fuji(富士)" is designation of the mountain and "san(山)" or "yama(山)" is just Japanese term meaning mountain. Likewise, English users does not call Korea's famous southern island "제주도" as "Jejudo". English users rather call it as Jeju Island, as "do" is just Korean term meaning island, while "Jeju" is distinguished designation for that island.
- In this manner, it is quite surprising that English users have to choose headline for this article's islands between "Dokdo" or "Takeshima", because Korean 'do' and Japanese 'shima' is just a noun meaning island. More natural headline for English users would be "Dok Island(Korean term)" or "Take Island(Japanese term)". And as I explained in above paragraph, most of librarians actually uses term "Tok island" for this article's islands,[4] as the Korean designation of the islands "독" is romanized as "Tok" in old McCune–Reischauer style, while new Revised Romanization of Korean uses "Dok" for "Tok".
- Then what would be natural conclusion for this all argument? I suggest we use "Tok Island" or "Dok Island".
- (1) Simple search result for both "Dokdo" and "Takeshima" term is harshly contaminated by patriotic Japanese and Korean internet users, so those results cannot be preferred ground for designation of this article. And also, they do not follow real English usage, as Fuijsan is Mount Fuji and Jejudo is Jeju Island in English Wikipedia.
- (2) While search result for google in "Take Island" makes no sense, search result for "Tok Island" makes perfect sense, as it is the real common term widely used by intellectuals, including librarians, in English world for calling this article's islands.[4] - SCMBD (talk) 00:22, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but its this reply that makes no sense. Dokdo and Takeshima are far more commonly used in English than "Dok Island"/"Tok Island"/"Tok to"/"Take Island"/etc etc. (which are all outdated anyways) Whether or not to include the island suffix is a completely case by case situation, based the on English usage in that specific situation. If you want previous precedent, see Ulleungdo. :3 F4U (they/it) 00:29, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- Just to respond to your point about Google ngrams being based on books: that's true – but even in a book search, the two first pages of search results are flooded with items such as "Everything You Need To Know About Dokdo", "Dokdo: Korean Territory since the 6th Century", "The Story of Dokdo Residents", "Dokdo is Korean Territory", "Dokdo in Korea: A Story of Dokdo Island, a Korean Territory", "Dokdo in Korea: a story of Dokdo Island, a Korean territory", "The Dokdo Story", "A Story of Dokdo Island: A Korean Territory", "Love You, Dokdo: Historical Trip to Dokdo with a Mentor". All of this is essentially propaganda spam. Incidentally, almost all the other, serious-looking items on the search list are written by Korean authors or at least have Korean co-authors. While I wouldn't go as far as to say that is in itself an exclusion criterion, I do believe that too should make us quite wary about any assumptions regarding regular English usage. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:27, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. There's no clear and neutral common name in English. That's why Liancourt Rocks is used. Masterhatch (talk) 16:38, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Masterhatch I propose dokdo/Tekeshima in alphabetical order because Liancourt rock is no the a common name
- reliable sources such as the BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-19207086 and DW https://www.dw.com/en/south-korea-starts-drills-at-japan-claimed-islands/a-50155334 use dokdo/Tekeshima Gerçois (talk) 19:17, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- "dokdo/Tekeshima" doesn't work because wikipedia doesn't like those slashes in article names. So, keeping status quo is still the best option at this time. Masterhatch (talk) 19:23, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Masterhatch I'm i didn't understand is it a technical problem or a rule because there are a lot of article that use the slash such as /pol/ Gerçois (talk) 19:28, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- It's not a technical issue. It's style. When there are two relatively common names for a subject, generally speaking, both names are not used with a slash between them. One name is chosen. With both Dokdo and Tekeshima being very hot button names, a more neutral name has been chosen (Liancourt Rocks). I would be more open to a debate about renaming this article either Dokdo Islands or Tekeshima Islands than I would about using both names with a slash. Masterhatch (talk) 20:15, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Masterhatch i understand, I think we should leave it as Liancourt until dokdo or Tekeshima become more used, because right now they are used equally as much it we'd be biased to choose dokdo or Tekeshima Gerçois (talk) 20:19, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Gerçois I suggest "Tok Island" instead, as it is more normal English naming style. You can find many reasons why I support this alternative plan from my reply for @Future Perfect at Sunrise in above paragraph. SCMBD (talk) 00:28, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Masterhatch i understand, I think we should leave it as Liancourt until dokdo or Tekeshima become more used, because right now they are used equally as much it we'd be biased to choose dokdo or Tekeshima Gerçois (talk) 20:19, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- It's not a technical issue. It's style. When there are two relatively common names for a subject, generally speaking, both names are not used with a slash between them. One name is chosen. With both Dokdo and Tekeshima being very hot button names, a more neutral name has been chosen (Liancourt Rocks). I would be more open to a debate about renaming this article either Dokdo Islands or Tekeshima Islands than I would about using both names with a slash. Masterhatch (talk) 20:15, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Masterhatch I'm i didn't understand is it a technical problem or a rule because there are a lot of article that use the slash such as /pol/ Gerçois (talk) 19:28, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- "dokdo/Tekeshima" doesn't work because wikipedia doesn't like those slashes in article names. So, keeping status quo is still the best option at this time. Masterhatch (talk) 19:23, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support. While I agree that neither Korea nor Japan prefers "Liancourt rocks" over "Dokdo" or "Takeshima" respectively, "Liancourt rocks" does not strictly fall under "neutral" point of view because official position of Korea is that there is no dispute at all.[7] It's more of an outsider point of view. It's akin to Taiwan. Both "Republic of China (Taiwan)" and "Taiwan, province of China" favors a certain POV, but it does not automatically mean that "Taiwan" is a neutral name.
- Since "Liancourt rocks" is neither a neutral nor common but outdated name shortly used during early 20th century, I guess there are three options:
- Dokdo, which obviously favors Korean POV but is consistent with other articles using a name preferred by administering state. (Falkland islands, Kuril islands, Senkaku islands and etc.)
- Dokdo/Takeshima, which contains both "Dokdo" and "Takeshima", reflecting a practice of using both "Dokdo" and "Takeshima, which is common in English literature, in alphabetical order, which is also a common way of ordering words, phrases and sentences in English language. Putting a simple explanation in FAQ section that following alphabetical order does not mean Japanese POV is more illegitimate should solve NPOV problem. "D" simply comes first.
- Status quo, which is neither common nor neutral but the title of the article remains same, like Republic of Ireland except that there is no WP:ARBCOM order in this case. 아이서울유 (talk) 11:23, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
- Strongly support move to Dokdo As has been previously discussed, having an article title with both names is not an acceptable solution (ie. Dokdo/Takeshima or Dokdo or Takeshima). It has also been discussed that Google Ngram information on "Takeshima" is unreliable because of its use as a common Japanese name and also because of its use as the name of Takeshima (island) (not to mention that having parenthetical disambiguation is discouraged when not necessary). Two points that have not been brought up yet are:
- "What are the islands called outside of the context of the dispute?"
- "What is the island called in the most cited academic literature on the topic?"
I have gathered references on the two questions below:
Sorted from greatest to fewest citations
- Liancort Rocks/Tok-do/Takeshima Cited by 187 Charney, Jonathan I. (1999-10-01). "Rocks That Cannot Sustain Human Habitation". American Journal of International Law. 94 (3).
- Uses "Liancort [sic] Rocks/Tok-do/Takeshima Islands" once when referring to the islands, but no further mentions are made.
- Takeshima Cited by 107 Kimie, Hara (2001). "50 Years from San Francisco: Re-Examining the Peace Treaty and Japan's Territorial Problems". Pacific Affairs. 74 (3).
- Primarily uses "Takeshima" in conjunction with "Takeshima (Tokdo)" (for the contemporary situation) or "Takeshima (Liancourt Rocks)" (for the historical situation). The article discusses the historical background behind the Treaty of San Francisco with regards to Japan, as well as contemporary issues it raises in Japanese politics.
- Dokdo Cited by 82 Van Dyke, Jon M. (2007-01-31). "Legal Issues Related to Sovereignty over Dokdo and Its Maritime Boundary". Ocean Development & International Law. 38 (1–2).
- Primarily uses "Dokdo". Introduces the terms "Takeshima" and "Liancourt Rocks" by stating "These islets are called Dokdo by Korea, Takeshima by Japan, and the Liancourt Rocks by various Western explorers and colonial writers". The article discusses the islands from the perspective of international law, concluding that "Korea’s claim to sovereignty over Dokdo is substantially stronger than that of Japan".
- Dokdo Cited by 75 Mitchell, Douglas A.; Watts, David Randolph; Wimbush, Mark H.; Teague, William J.; Tracey, Karen L.; Book, Jeffrey W.; Chang, Kyungil; Suk, Moon-sik; Yoon, Jong-hwan (2005-06-01). "Upper circulation patterns in the Ulleung Basin". Deep-Sea Research Part II: Topical Studies in Oceanography. 52 (11–13).
- Primarily uses "Dok Islands". Mentions the term "Takeshima" once as "Dok (Takeshima) Islands" with no further context. Article discusses findings regarding wind patterns in the area.
- Dokdo (Two articles written by the same authors in the same series of the same journal) Cited by 72 Yoon, Jung-Hoon; Kang, So-Jung; Lee, Soo-Young; Lee, Mi-Hwa; Oh, Tae-Kwang (2005-09-01). "'Virgibacillus dokdonensis' sp. nov., isolated from a Korean island, Dokdo, located at the edge of the East Sea in Korea". International Journal of Systematic and Evolutionary Microbiology. 55 (5). and Cited by 50 Yoon, Jung-Hoon; Kang, So-Jung; Lee, Soo-Young; Lee, Mi-Hwa; Oh, Tae-Kwang (2005-09-01). "Maribacter dokdonensis sp. nov., isolated from sea water off a Korean island, Dokdo". International Journal of Systematic and Evolutionary Microbiology. 55 (5).
- Solely uses "Dokdo". No other terms are mentioned. The two articles discuss varieties of bacteria collected off the islands.
- Takeshima Cited by 68 Oda, Shigeru (2017-03-28). "The Normalization of Relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea". American Journal of International Law. 61 (1).
- Solely uses "Takeshima". No other terms are mentioned. The article discusses the islands in the context of Japanese normalization of relations with South Korea.
- Dokdo Cited 63 Sakamoto, Rumi (2011-03-07). "'Koreans, Go Home!' Internet Nationalism in Contemporary Japan as a Digitally Mediated Subculture". The Asia-Pacific Journal: Japan Focus. 9 (10).
- Uses "Dokdo" to refer to the islands while using "Takeshima" (with quotes) in the context of Japanese colonial racism or "Dokdo/Takeshima" to refer to the conflict.
- Dokdo Cited by 58 Choi, Sung-jae (2016-03-24). "The Politics of the Dokdo Issue". Journal of East Asian Studies. 5 (3).
- Solely uses "Dokdo", with the exception of use of "Takeshima" in quotes or to refer to the "Takeshima Movement" The article discusses the political nature of the islands with respect to the historical and political backgrounds of both countries.
- Liancourt Rocks Cited by 51 Fern, Sean (1998). "Tokdo or Takeshima? The International Law of Territorial Acquisition in the Japan-Korea Island Dispute" (PDF). Stanford Journal of East Asian Affairs. 5 (1).
- Primarily uses "Liancourt Rocks" to refer to the islands and is the article currently used to cite the claim that the island is called the "Liancourt Rocks" by neutral observers. It mentions "Tokdo" and "Takeshima" as the Korean and Japanese names respectively. The article concludes that South Korea has a stronger claim to the islands in every respect.
- Liancourt Rocks Cited by 43 Sibbett, Benjamin K. (1997). "Tokdo or Takeshima? The Territorial Dispute Between Japan and the Republic of Korea". Fordham International Law Journal. 21 (4–9).
- Primarily uses "Liancourt Rocks" to refer to the islands, does not use the terms "Tokdo" or "Takeshima" outside of in quotes, and provides very little contextualization for the two terms. The article discusses the islands with regards to international law, concluding in a judgement favoring South Korea.
- Takeshima (out of convenience) Cited by 45 Bukh, Alexander (2014-10-21). "Shimane Prefecture, Tokyo and the territorial dispute over Dokdo/Takeshima: regional and national identities in Japan". The Pacific Review. 28 (1).
- Primarily uses "Takeshima" to refer to the islands, while introducing "Dokdo" as the Korean name. The article states "Since this paper is devoted to analyzing the Japanese side of the dispute, the Japanese name will be used throughout the text. This is done, however, solely for purposes of convenience and should not be interpreted as an expression of support for Japan's claims." The article discusses the island with regards to the establishment of "Takeshima" in Japanese national identity, such as through "Takeshima Day".
- Dokdo Cited by 42 Hunter, William Cannon (2013-10-03). "The Visual Representation of Border Tourism: Demilitarized Zone (DMZ) and Dokdo in South Korea". International Journal of Tourism Research. 17 (2).
- Primarily uses "Dokdo" to refer to the islands, while introducing "Takeshima" as the Japanese name. The article discusses the island in the context of tourism to the DMZ and the islands.
- Dokdo (out of convenience) Cited by 40 Wiegand, Krista E. (2015-02-26). "The South Korean–Japanese security relationship and the Dokdo/Takeshima islets dispute". The Pacific Review. 28 (3).
- Primarily uses "Dokdo" to refer to the islands, while using "Dokdo/Takeshima" when discussing the Korean and Japanese contexts. The article discusses the impact of the islands on South Korean domestic politics and states that its use of the name "Dokdo" "in no way suggests a political stand on the legitimate sovereignty of the islets and is purely for the sake of simplicity."
- Liancourt Rocks Cited by 39 Smith, Robert W.; Thomas, Bradford L. (1998). "Island Disputes and the Law of the Sea: An Examination of Sovereignty and Delimitation Disputes". International Boundaries Research Unit: Maritime Briefing. 2 (4).
- Primarily uses "Liancourt Rocks" with "Takeshima/Tok-do" in parentheses. It mentions the islands once in text and twice in maps. The article discusses sovereignty disputes regarding islands.
- Dokdo Cited by 37 Chang, Kyung-Il; Kim, Youn-Bae; Suk, Moon-Sik; Byun, Sang-Kyung (2002-12-31). "Hydrography around Dokdo". Ocean and Polar Research. 24 (4).
- Solely uses "Dokdo". No other terms are mentioned. The article uses measures of conductivity, temperature, and depth to analyze the hydrography around the islands.
- Takeshima/Tokdo Cited 34 McCormack, Gavan (2011-01-03). "Small Islands – Big Problem: Senkaku/Diaoyu and the Weight of History and Geography in China-Japan Relations". The Asia-Pacific Journal: Japan Focus. 9 (1).
- The island uses both names in the two instances the islands are mentioned. The article discusses the Senkaku Islands dispute with regard to Japan's relationship to China, and brings up the islands to compare and contrast the two disputes.
- Dokdo Cited by 32 Lee, Seokwoo; Van Dyke, Jon M. (2010-12-01). "The 1951 San Francisco Peace Treaty and Its Relevance to the Sovereignty over Dokdo". Chinese Journal of International Law. 9 (4).
- Primarily uses "Dokdo". The term "Takeshima" is introduced by stating "Japan's claim to Dokdo, which it calls 'Takeshima'". The article discusses the islands with regards to international law, particularly with regards to the Treaty of San Francisco. The article concludes that the treaty does not strengthen or weaken any claim and is irrelevant to the issue of the islands' sovereignty.
- Dokdo Cited by 31 Ryu, Shi-Hyun; Jang, Keum-Hee; Choi, Eun-Hwa; Kim, Sang-Ki; Song, Sung-Joon; Cho, Hyun-Jin; Ryu, Ju-Sun; Kim, Youn-Mi; Sagong, Jin; Lee, Jin-Hee; Yeo, Mi-Yeong; Bahn, So-Yeong; Kim, Hae-Min; Lee, Gil-Seong; Lee, Don-Hwa; Cho, Yeon-Sik; Pak, Jae-Hong; Park, Jin-Soon; Ryu, Jong-Seong; Khim, Jong-Seong; Hwang, Ui-Wook (2012). "Biodiversity of Marine Invertebrates on Rocky Shores of Dokdo, Korea" (PDF). Zoological Studies. 51 (5).
- Solely uses "Dokdo". No other terms are mentioned. The article examines the biodiversity of marine invertebrates on the island, as the article title succinctly states.
- Dokdo Cited by 30 Kang, Rae-Seon; Won, Ki-Sik; Hong, Kyung-Pyo; Kim, Jong-Man (2001). "Population Studies on the Kelp Ecklonia cava and Eisenia bicyclis in Dokdo, Korea". Algae. 16 (2).
- Solely uses "Dokdo". No other terms are mentioned. The article reports the results of two population studies on two varieties of kelp on the island.
- Dokdo Cited by 28 Lee, Moon-Hee; Kim, Yeon-Kye; Moon, Ho Sung; Kim, Kyoung-Duck; Kim, Gwan-Gyu; Cho, Hyeon-Ah; Yoon, Na Young; Sim, Kil Bo; Park, Hee-Yeon; Lee, Doo-Seog; Lim, Chi-Won; Yoon, Ho-Dong; Han, Sang-Kuk (2012-10-31). "Comparison on proximate composition and nutritional profile of red and black sea cucumbers (Apostichopus japonicus) from Ulleungdo(Island) and Dokdo(Island), Korea". Food Science and Biotechnology. 21 (5).
- Solely uses "Dokdo". No other terms are mentioned. The article compares the characteristics of Sea Cucumbers on the island to those on Ulleung Island.
- Dok-do Cited by 28 Oh, Miyoung (2009-02-04). "'Eternal Other' Japan: South Koreans' Postcolonial Identity". The International Journal of the History of Sport. 26 (3).
- The article primarily uses "Dokdo", but includes in parenthesis "Liancourt Rocks" during the first mention of the islands. The article discusses the post-colonial and ethnic identities of South Korea by examining their relationships with Japan.
- Tokdo Cited by 27 Kajimura, Hideki (1977). "The Question of Takeshima/Tokdo" (PDF). Korea Observer. 28 (3).
- While the article primarily uses "Takeshima/Tokdo", it states that "Takeshima" is not an admissible name for the islands, preferring "Tokdo". The article is a discussion of the historical understanding of the islands in Japan, the etymologies of both words, the legal background over the islands, and a general discussion over the islands themselves. The article concludes that Korea has a stronger claim to the islands.
- Liancourt Rocks Cited by 26 Johnston, Douglas M. (1992). "Anticipating instability in the Asia‐pacific region". The Washington Quarterly. 15 (3).
- The name "Liancourt Rocks" is provided once and no further discussion of the islands outside of one mention of its existence as a territorial dispute. The article discusses potential instability in the Asia-pacific region from a U.S. foreign policy perspective.
- Dokdo Cited by 24 Selden, Mark (2011-04-25). "Small Islets, Enduring Conflict: Dokdo, Korea-Japan Colonial Legacy and the United States". The Asia-Pacific Journal: Japan Focus. 9 (17).
- The article primarily uses "Dokdo", but mentions Takeshima once in the second paragraph where it states "Dokdo/Takeshima/Liancourt Rocks (hereafter Dokdo)" and in the image captions which state "Dokdo (Liancourt Rocks)"
- Tok-do Cited by 24 Valencia, Mark J. (1989-01-01). "Northeast Asia: Petroleum potential, jurisdictional claims, and international relations". Ocean Development & International Law. 20 (1).
- The article generally uses "Tok-do", although it alternates frequently with "Take-shima", and less commonly with "Liancourt Rocks". The article discusses territorial disputes in Northeast Asia with regard to the potential petroleum found in those areas.
- Dokdo/Takeshima Cited by 24 Hiwatari, Nobuhiro (2006-02-01). "Japan in 2005: Koizumi's Finest Hour". Asian Survey. 46 (1).
- The article uses "Dokdo/Takeshima" in the two times that the islands are mentioned. The article discusses various of aspects of Prime Minister Koizumi's government up to the 2005 Japanese general election.
- Dokdo Cited by 22 Raman, Gurusamy; Choi, Kyoung Su; Park, SeonJoo (2016-12-02). "Phylogenetic Relationships of the Fern Cyrtomium falcatum (Dryopteridaceae) from Dokdo Island Based on Chloroplast Genome Sequencing". Genes. 7 (12).
- Solely uses "Dokdo". No other terms are mentioned. That article discusses the genome sequencing of the sole fern species on the islands.
- Liancourt Rocks Cited by 21 O'Shea, Paul (2012-03-19). "Playing the Sovereignty Game: Understanding Japan's Territorial Disputes". University of Sheffield (Doctoral Thesis).
- Primarily uses "Liancourt Rocks", while using "Dokdo" and "Takeshima" to refer to the islands in the context of history/politics in South Korea and Japan respectively. This section of the doctoral doctoral thesis primarily discusses the rise of the modern-day political significance of the islands.
- Dokdo/Takeshima Cited by 21 Bowman, Garret (2013). "Why Now Is the Time to Resolve the Dokdo/Takeshima Dispute". Case Western Reserve Journal of International Law. 46 (1).
- Primarily uses "Dokdo/Takeshima", whilst noting that the islets were once referred to as the "Liancourt Rocks" by Western explorers and colonial writers. The article argues that Japan and Korea should resolve the dispute in order to resolve other disputes that the two countries have with China and Russia.
- Dokdo/Takeshima Cited by 21 Japan's Border Issues: Pitfalls and Prospects Akihiro Iwashita (2016)
- This was the only source I was not able to get access to, if anyone else has access, it would be much appreciated. From the search function on Google Books, it appears that the book primarily refers to the islands as "Dokdo/Takeshima", but mentions "Liancourt Rocks" once as an international name.
- Dokdo Cited by 21 Kim, Chang Hwan; Park, Jae Woo; Lee, Myoung Hoon; Park, Chan Hong (2013-01-02). "Detailed Bathymetry and Submarine Terraces in the Coastal Area of the Dokdo Volcano in the Ulleung Basin, the East Sea (Sea of Japan)". Journal of Coastal Research.
- Solely uses "Dokdo". No other terms are mentioned. The article is a discussion of measurements of the sea floor around the islands.
- Dokdo/Takeshima Cited by 21 Cho, Jinman; Kim, HeeMin; Choi, Jun Young (2009-12-01). "The Dokdo/Takeshima Dispute between Korea and Japan: Understanding the Whole Picture". Pacific Focus. 24 (3).
- The article primarily uses "Dokdo/Takeshima", while dismissing the "Liancourt Rocks" name as false neutrality. The article discusses the rise of the islands' political status in Japan since the early 2000s and various efforts by the Japanese government to gain international recognition.
- Dokdo Cited by 20 Bong, Youngshik D (2013-04-01). "Built to last: The Dokdo territorial controversy. The baseline conditions in domestic politics and international security of Japan and South Korea". Memory Studies. 6 (2).
- The article primarily uses the term "Dokdo", but does mention Takeshima, by stating "the islands of Dokdo (known as Takeshima in Japan)". The article discusses the persistence of the issue and concludes that there is little likelihood of the dispute being resolved without a "critical rupture".
- Dokdo Cited by 20 Baek, Seung Ho; Lee, Minji; Kim, Yun-Bae (2018-02-01). "Spring phytoplankton community response to an episodic windstorm event in oligotrophic waters offshore from the Ulleungdo and Dokdo islands, Korea". Journal of Sea Research. 132: 1–14. doi:10.1016/j.seares.2017.11.003. ISSN 1385-1101.
- Solely uses "Dokdo". No other terms are mentioned. The article discusses a phytoplankton community around the island and its response following a windstorm.
Special cases
- Cited by 136 Sumi, Robert; Yasseri, Taha; Rung, Andr´s; Kornai, Andr´s; Kertesz, J´nos (2011-10-09). "Edit Wars in Wikipedia". 2011 IEEE Third International Conference on Privacy, Security, Risk and Trust and 2011 IEEE Third International Conference on Social Computing.
- This article discusses edit wars on Wikipedia and mentions this article (and thus the islands) once in this context.
- Cited by 34 Ekstrand, Michael D.; Riedl, John T. (2009-10-25). "rv you're dumb: identifying discarded work in Wiki article history". WikiSym '09: Proceedings of the 5th International Symposium on Wikis and Open Collaboration (4).
- The article discusses discarded revisions on Wikipedia and provides this article as a case study of an edit war.[13]
- Cited by 23 Lee, Choong-Ki; Kim, Tae-Kyun; Mjelde, James W. (2016-01-02). "Comparison of preservation values between Internet and interview survey modes: the case of Dokdo, South Korea". Journal of Environmental Planning and Management. 59 (1). This article discusses the results of a study on the effectiveness of internet surveys and uses questions on "Dokdo" to South Koreans on the internet.
Given this evidence, several conclusions can be drawn.
- "Dokdo" is by far the most common name used in the English-language academic literature on the islands. In addition, in articles examining the islands from an international relations perspective (as opposed to that of domestic politics), it is disproportionately the name of choice, and when discussing the islands outside of the context of the territory dispute, the term "Dokdo" is practically universally used.
- "Liancourt Rocks" is an uncommon name for the subject and several references use it solely as a dated historical name for the islands. The name has sometimes been used in academic literature, but its use is surpassed by "Dokdo" and "Takeshima" by large margins. Its neutrality has been disputed by a number of articles and the last publication which has seriously considered "Liancourt Rocks" as a name for the islands has been more than a decade ago. In general, most of the usage of "Liancourt Rocks" dates back to the 1980s and 1990s, with the most recent source that seriously considers the name being O'Shea (2012).
- There is also evidence that suggests that this Wikipedia article's name has influenced the popularity of the "Liancourt Rocks" as a name for these islands.
- (Ekstrand and Riedl 2009) and (Sumi, Yasseri, et al. 2011) both mention this article in highly cited conference proceedings analyzing Wikipedia edit wars. The articles both use the name "Liancourt Rocks", citing the title of this article, to refer to the islands. I find it highly believable based on this that it is not unlikely, that Wikipedia's use of this article title has played a minor, but significant role in supporting the legitimacy of the term "Liancourt Rocks" in recent years.
- I would also go further to argue, as expressed in (Cho, Kim, et al. 2009), Wikipedia's usage of "Liancourt Rocks" does not provide a neutral POV,[14] as this name provides legitimacy to far-right (a)historical scholarship that would count under WP:FRINGE. In addition (Cho, Kim, et al. 2009) further states, "Furthermore, since 2000, Japan has taken active measures to list the islet as Liancourt Rocks in the publications of foreign governments, and international organizations. As a result, currently the US CIA World Factbook, Wikipedia, and the Netsaber site all use the term, Liancourt Rocks, to refer to Dokdo/Takeshima."
- Sorry for the long message. Cheers! :3 F4U (they/it) 15:23, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Future Perfect at Sunrise Is this what you had in mind? :3 F4U (they/it) 16:29, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- Could you explain the far-right thing?—blindlynx 15:00, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- (Sakamoto 2011)
Mirroring the post-1990s historical revisionism, netto-uyo exhibit xenophobia towards immigrants, depict Korea and China negatively, and uphold revisionist history, justifying and glorifying Japan’s wartime actions...They became visible through a number of Internet-generated controversies that erupted around 2002-2004 such as those over the World Cup Soccer hosted by Korea and Japan, 'Hate-Korea' comic books, the so-called 'Nanjing Massacre comic book' and Dokdo/Takeshima, to name just a few.
- (O'Shea 2012)
The net effect of all this was to fundamentally change the Japanese discourse on the rocks, making them into a major issue for traditional right-wing conservatives and for the new 'youth nationalists' (they were always a major issue for the far-right ultranationalist).
- (Hunter 2013)
However, the release of the 'New History Textbook' draft in 2000 (claiming the islets as Japanese territory) and the pronouncement of 'Takeshima Day' in Japan on 22 February 2005 have rekindled the controversy. South Korea and China are particularly sensitive to these acts as signs of postcolonial aggression, given Japan's imperialist past.
- (Oh 2009)
The fierce political disputes between South Korea and Japan were ignited again in April 2005 when the Japanese government approved, as available choices for Japanese schools, textbooks that described Dok-do as islets belonging to Japan and glorified Japan's colonial past more cunningly than ever before.
- (Cho et al. 2009)
The expanding Japanese empire forced Dokdo under its sovereignty while curtailing Korea's diplomatic rights in 1905. Japan eventually annexed the whole Korean Peninsula in 1910.
- For articles discussing the issue on a broader scope, see (Bukh 2014), (Fern 2005), (Van Dyke 2007), and (Choi 2016). Pretty much all of the scholarship above that discusses the dispute also concludes that South Korea has a stronger claim to the islands and that Japan's dispute over that claim generally has to do with influential domestic right-wing nationalist groups and a fear over domino effects on the Sea of Japan/Senkaku Islands disputes. The scholarship above also generally concludes that the annexation of Dokdo by Japan in 1905 is a part of its colonization of Korea, and not a separate event. :3 F4U (they/it) 16:18, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- Another comment, this ngram also shows that Dokdo / Takeshima is also a demonstrably more popular name than "Liancourt Rocks". A slash does reduce the suitability of the article's title, as detailed in MOS:SLASH, however, it doesn't outright rule it out and I think this is in the end, a far better solution than using "Liancourt Rocks", which as I have stated is not a common name for the rocks. :3 F4U (they/it) 22:11, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- (Sakamoto 2011)
- Oppose. As there is no clearly-defined neutral name used by the majority of reliable and neutral English-language sources, we should keep the article at this name. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:40, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose, as there is no name other than the current one that satisfies NPOV + out of the two suggested names neither is more used than the other, which is why the Sea of Japan title argument doesn't work in this case. Summer talk 18:46, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment I have noticed no one has so far mention Google Trends although it is a tool recommended in WP:COMMONNAME to determine the most common name for a topic as it keeps track of what people search for on Google. In the case of this topic, according to the GT comparison I just ran there have been more searches for "Dokdo" wordwide than for "Takeshima" and less searches for "Liancourt Rocks" than the former worldwide over the past five years. However, as this is the English language Wikipedia and the topic does not have any strong national ties to any particular English-speaking country I had better filter my results to the most populous English-speaking country however, GT turned out a similar result for the United States and a similar result for the United Kingdom which speaks the next major dialect of English. This suggests the Korean name is the most common among native English-speakers. However, according to WP:NPOVTITLE neutral titles are preferred on Wikipedia although they admit that the most prevalent name for a topic is not always neutral. Tk420 (talk) 06:55, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
References
- ^ Snyder, Scott A. "South Korea-Russia Air Incident: What to Know". cfr.org. Council on Foreign Relations. Retrieved September 13, 2022.
- ^ "Profile: Dokdo/Takeshima islands". BBC. Retrieved September 13, 2022.
- ^ "South Korea starts drills at Japan-claimed islands". Deutsch Welle. August 25, 2019. Retrieved September 13, 2022.
- ^ a b c "Tok Island (Korea)". id.loc.gov. Library of Congress. Retrieved 2023-03-15.
- ^ "VIAF ID: 6144647636484443387 (Geographic)". viaf.org. VIAF. Retrieved 2023-03-15.
- ^ "Google Books Ngram Viewer". books.google.com. Retrieved 17 March 2023.
- ^ Shin, Maeng-ho (25 October 2012). "Why we refuse to seek legal recourse on Dokdo". koreatimes. The Korea Times. Retrieved 17 March 2023. "Therefore, the Government of the Republic of Korea does not recognize any dispute concerning the territorial sovereignty over Dokdo"
- ^ For a total of 35 articles and 3 special cases outside of the scope of this move.
- ^ One Indonesian-language source and a number of Korean-language sources were disqualified under this criteria. (1: I had originally set the threshold of citations to be 10, but quickly realized that there would be too many sources for me to reasonably go through, thus I increased the number to 20. Combining the sources I had disqualified before increasing the threshold and those I disqualified afterwards, a total of 24 Korean-language articles were rejected. 2: These rejections were the result of Korean-language journal articles frequently publishing English-language abstracts without a corresponding English-language body).
- ^ One news article was removed under this criteria.
- ^ Citation counts are per Google Scholar.
- ^ I searched the terms "Dokdo", "Liancourt Rocks", and "Takeshima island(s)" (without quotation marks) into Google Scholar and included every result (with the exception of usage which does not refer to the islands) with 20 or more citations from other sources, until I reached 10 consecutive search results with no results that met the criteria. Articles that use an alternative spelling of Dokdo (ie. "Dok Islands" or "Tokdo") have only been included as a result of searches for "Liancourt Rocks" or "Takeshima". Please inform me of any mistakes or omissions.
- ^ The fact that this Wikipedia article has been discussed twice in this context by highly cited academic literature is unimaginably funny to me.
- ^ I've seen some terrible claims in the archives discussing how the article needs to provide both "KPOV" and "JPOV", when this is a discussion about territories that have been generally accepted to have been illegally annexed as part of the brutal Japanese colonization of South Korea.
naming issue
The article name should be Dokdo as Korea administers the territory and is no less commonly used in English than Liancourt Rocks 97.103.129.121 (talk) 00:16, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
Dead links
en.dokdo.go.kr appears to have been replaced with dokdo.mofa.go.kr/eng . Can someone replace inline citation 4 and the three related references? https://dokdo.mofa.go.kr/eng/introduce/location.jsp includes the relevant information except for the distance between islands which I cannot find a proper source for. DA39A3 (talk) 15:39, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
Requested move 7 April 2024
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Lightoil (talk) 17:15, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Liancourt Rocks → Dokdo – Liancourt Rocks isn't WP:COMMONNAME and the islets are administered by the Republic of Korea. Furthermore Dokdo, along with Takeshima, are the actual English common names used in tandem (Dokdo/Takeshima) but as they are actually administered by Korea it is more in line with WP:NPOV consistency used in virtually every Wikipedia article regarding territorial disputes between two parties to use the place name as provided by the actual administration unless an English common name is already established. Jetsettokaiba (talk) 11:14, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Courtesy Ngrams. Remsense诉 11:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- somewhat more relevant Ngrams Jetsettokaiba (talk) 11:23, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- So, if you think this slashform name is acceptable, then it should clearly be your proposed move. However, that seems not to be the case, so what are we going to do here? I'm genuinely not sure. Remsense诉 11:28, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- It isn't nor am I advocating slash names however I laid my case for the use of Dokdo in the original request. Furthermore I don't think Google Books Ngrams is the end all be all of term usage as its pitfalls are well documented and compiling "Takeshima" in English includes surnames and multiple other islands in Japan rendered as "Takeshima". I suppose consensus building would be the next step. Jetsettokaiba (talk) 11:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, far be it from me to say Ngrams is perfect. To be clear, I don't know what the right solution is, but yours is probably at least the second most viable. I am not familiar enough yet to say. Remsense诉 11:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- It isn't nor am I advocating slash names however I laid my case for the use of Dokdo in the original request. Furthermore I don't think Google Books Ngrams is the end all be all of term usage as its pitfalls are well documented and compiling "Takeshima" in English includes surnames and multiple other islands in Japan rendered as "Takeshima". I suppose consensus building would be the next step. Jetsettokaiba (talk) 11:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- The Ngram with "Dokdo/Takeshima" is a misunderstanding. It doesn't show how often "Dokdo/Takeshima" appears, but rather how often "Dokdo" appears divided by how often "Takeshima" appears. To search for a phrase with /, you have to enclose it in [ ]. Here is a fixed Google Ngrams search, but it doesn't have results for "Dokdo/Takeshima". SilverLocust 💬 18:44, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oh! Some sort of potential notational error crossed my mind briefly, but that's too funny. Remsense诉 18:47, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Interesting, but as I think we can all more or less agree, Ngrams shouldn't in and of itself be used to establish wp:commonnames in particular with words that are transliterated into English. I however do argue that both "Dokdo" and "Takeshima" in the relevant context are used more than "Liancourt Rocks". Jetsettokaiba (talk) 02:04, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I don't think those Google Ngrams searches actually show how common each name is (though I don't know what transliteration has to do with it). They certainly exaggerate how common the current title is because they show results for "Liancourt" instead of just "Liancourt Rocks" (here is yet another Google Ngrams search), as there are other subjects with Liancourt in their name (French places/people). The other two names are probably also a bit overcounted, but I think "Dokdo" and "Takeshima" both mostly refer to this and usually don't include a second word in the name (like Takeshima Islands or Dokdo Island). SilverLocust 💬 03:48, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- So, if you think this slashform name is acceptable, then it should clearly be your proposed move. However, that seems not to be the case, so what are we going to do here? I'm genuinely not sure. Remsense诉 11:28, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- somewhat more relevant Ngrams Jetsettokaiba (talk) 11:23, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose, generally agree that reflecting actual reality is NPOV, but this isn't a question of administration but of English name and we have never used administration to proxy for English naming. CMD (talk) 12:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- You're basing your oppose on wp:commonname grounds if Im understanding you correctly? Jetsettokaiba (talk) 15:48, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Note: WikiProject International relations, WikiProject Korea, and WikiProject Japan have been notified of this discussion. Remsense诉 13:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. I oppose both using a slash name (wow, imagine the can of worms that would open up!) and renaming this article Dokdo. Neither Takeshima nor Dokdo are head and shoulders above the other in English usage (nevermind that neither of them are English). Anyways, Liancourt, while not perfect, seems to be the best name. Masterhatch (talk) 13:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with pretty everything you're saying, the only area of disagreement is that I fundamentally believe that maintaining "Liancourt Rocks" despite it not being wp:commonname and despite ROK administration over the islets for the sake of perceived impartiality at this point is itself arguably against the norm of wikipedia naming conventions for disputed territories. Jetsettokaiba (talk) 01:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose move. The name "Liancourt Rocks" was chosen for this article to not favor either nation's view over the other's. O.N.R. (talk) 14:23, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think perhaps that can best be maintained by upholding wp:commonnames which "Liancourt Rocks" simply isn't and upholding wp:npov which seems to favor the administrating power in terms of placenames in virtually every other territorial dispute on wikipedia. Jetsettokaiba (talk) 16:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- It's worth explicating that there's a discussion pinned to the top of this page: since it seems like the consensus from last year has largely been maintained so far, do you think there are any additional arguments the earlier discussions haven't covered? Remsense诉 18:01, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- While it does seem like it is the same people making the same arguments I think that its both healthy and necessary to regularly collect consensus on controversial issues like this especially when contemporaneous norms shift at an accelerated rate and, in my opinion, it seems that the Dokdo/Takeshima issue receives markedly different treatment than virtually every other contemporary disputed territory article on wikipedia. Jetsettokaiba (talk) 01:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
- It's worth explicating that there's a discussion pinned to the top of this page: since it seems like the consensus from last year has largely been maintained so far, do you think there are any additional arguments the earlier discussions haven't covered? Remsense诉 18:01, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think perhaps that can best be maintained by upholding wp:commonnames which "Liancourt Rocks" simply isn't and upholding wp:npov which seems to favor the administrating power in terms of placenames in virtually every other territorial dispute on wikipedia. Jetsettokaiba (talk) 16:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- oppose actual control isn't automatically npov—blindlynx 18:47, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose stop opening the can of worms that will lead to another edit war. -- 65.92.247.66 (talk) 06:39, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
Add 'East Sea of Korea'
In three parts, it is correct to write 'East Sea of Korea' before or after every 'Sea of Japan'. Sdhlaw (talk) 20:37, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- No. Please see Talk:Liancourt Rocks/Archive 22#Add (East sea) for the current consensus on this. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:15, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia controversial topics
- B-Class International relations articles
- Mid-importance International relations articles
- WikiProject International relations articles
- B-Class Islands articles
- WikiProject Islands articles
- B-Class Japan-related articles
- Mid-importance Japan-related articles
- Japan articles needing attention
- WikiProject Japan articles
- B-Class Korea-related articles
- High-importance Korea-related articles
- Unstable Korea-related articles
- WikiProject Korea articles
- Wikipedia pages referenced by the press