Talk:Ned Kelly

top priority

who was his mother 74.184.3.10 (talk) 17:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

To do

Other things that need to be mentioned:

• The Jerilderie letter.
• The various fictional retellings (the early film version, the Mick Jagger version, the Peter Carey novel, the other novel that was adapted into the film version with Heath Ledger).

--Robert Merkel 13:20 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I was under the belief that the 1906 film The Story of the Kelly Gang was the first full length film. --Roisterer 20:46, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In early life "nineth of eight children" needs to be fixed. Obviously if there were eight kids total, he could not be the ninth. Also, is "nineth" an acceptable spelling of "ninth"?--66.63.116.254 28 June 2005 23:13 (UTC)

Can we obtain an image of his armour? It's such an important part of the history and legend I'm surprised there's no images of it. --Mintie 05:59, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

In the section, "The Killings at Stringybark Creek," the name "Scanlon" is misspelled once. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.23.155.128 (talk) 17:38, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikification

I added the wikify tag. The inline citations throughout the article are poorly done and inconsistent - they should be footnotes anyway; the way the author added them seems like they're writing a school report, and doesn't fit with the rest of the article (or Wikipedia in general). Also the mention of the article about the discovery of the pistol seems hastily inserted. -Jaardon (talk) 12:01, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Fizpatrick's "assault" on Kate Kelly

The following sentence is inappropriate, "Ned's sister Kate also attracted the attention of Constable Alexander Fitzpatrick, who assaulted her on a visit to the Kelly home in 1878. Fitzpatrick accused Ned of attempted murder, and Ned went into hiding;". There is no evidence that Fitzpatrick assaulted Kate Kelly – a later elaboration that was not, afaik, reported at the time even by the Kellys. Any the Kelly version should not be presented as fact while the Fizpatrick version is presented as an accusation. Neither parties were trustworthy witnesses. Paul B 18:24, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

please see my edit of the sentence and check if that answers your concerns--User:AYArktos | Talk 20:07, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Ned's age when his father died

I've changed the age from 12 to 11, following this page:

"The 'parcels' are written by Peter Carey from Ned Kelly's perspective, and are not Ned's words. They begin with the following: "I lost my own father at 12 yr. of age…" Actually, Ned's precise age at the time of his father's death has not yet been discovered by researchers, (as no record of his birth or baptism survives). However, reliable documented evidence proves that Ned believed himself to be "11 ½" years of age on 27 Dec 1866, (Ned himself gave this information and signed father's death registration)."

Cnwb 05:22, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Ned Kelly Links

A historically reliable non-profit website that could be added to the links for this section is http://www.bailup.com

Hero?

Ned Kelly is anti-racist hero???? Some think so on your conceptions of race page. Await the return

Devil's Rejects

There is a parallel to Ned Kelly's last stand in the film Devil's Rejects. The Firefly family members are wearing Ned Kelly armor, and there are four of them fighting off a police siege.

Cleanup

This section of the page is badly organized. The dates are clearly wrong as Kelly goes from 4 to 16 in the space of a couple years and it seems as if there is some text missing. The first two paragraphs are esepcially bad. What exactly was the Kelly family being charged with? Kerowyn 05:26, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The article could do with some cleaning up in general - in particular the citations and the seemingly hastily inserted bit on the article about the pistol being discovered. I added a wikify tag. -Jaardon (talk) 11:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah Fook?!

Does anyone have a source for the name of the assaulted chinese pig farmer? Sounds like a prank to me.

http://www.glenrowan1880.com/ah_fook.htm (I've added it to the article). Stevage 12:11, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Re Ah Fook - he certainly existed though his evidence may have been suspect. Refer to Ian Jones, (1995)Ned Kelly,pp.37-38 for material on Ah Fook. Such names were common in the era. Refer also to A.O'Brien, (1999) [unpublished]thesis titled 'Awaiting Ned Kelly' available for inspection and research at Burke Museum reading room, Beechworth, for a range of Chinese names simailar to Ah Fook and for an insight into the Chinese giving (false) evidence in Beechworth and surrounding courts during early 1870s. See also A.O'Brien's [published] Shenanigans on the Ovens Goldfields (2005) for a indepth chapter on Chinese on the Northeastern goldfields during 1859. Also refer to K. Cronin, Colonial Casualties: Chinese in early Victoria, Melbourne University Press, 1982. Tonyob 00:50, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Jack Duggan: "The Wild Colonial Boy"

A song is often sung in Ireland about an Irish-born Austalian outlaw called Jack Duggan, ("The Wild Colonial Boy"). According to the song, he was born in Castlemaine, County Kerry, Ireland. That town now has signs at the entrance, (from memory, please correct if need be) "Birth-place of The Wild Colonial Boy."

    "There was a wild colonial boy
     Jack Duggan was his name.
     He was born and reared in Ireland
     In a place called Castlemaine..."

Naturally,

     "He robbed the rich
     To help the poor."

And, for good measure,

     "He stabbed James McEvoy."

Duggan, at least from the information provided by the song, died in a shoot-out with three policemen, two of whom he downed:

     "But a bullet pierced
     His proud young heart
     From the pistol of Fitzroy
     And that was how they captured Jack,
     The Wild Colonial Boy."

If anyone has any information on this character, I'd be delighted to hear from them--PeadarMaguidhir 11:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I too was introduced to this song in primary school in Australia along with other Australian/Irish/British folk songs (Click go the Shears, Bound for Botany Bay, Waltzing Matilda etc.). However the version we learnt didn't mention Ireland and changed his name to Doolan (not Duggan). I was always of the belief that it was a fictional amalgam of lots of Australian bush rangers.--81.144.244.194 11:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC)Lucas

Here in Australia we are very familiar with that particular folk song. The original "Wild Colonial Boy" was a bushranger named Jack Donohoe, a native of Dublin who was transported to New South Wales in 1825, escaped to the bush, and ranged the Penrith area for about four years, before being tracked down by a posse of police, soldiers and volunteers, and shot in the head. Snottygobble 12:02, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you both for the information. I just wonder how the name, Jack Donoghue, fits into the song's meter. Any further explanations/theories/historical fragments/biographies will be most welcome.--PeadarMaguidhir 20:00, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

My father and others used to sing it here in Australia. Just the other year I had to sing it at a lockdown in a pub in Dingle just down the road from Castlemaine and it took a few hours of thirsty discussion to get to an agreed understanding. There's a few different versions and of course all insist theirs is the correct one. The one I always heard was:

"There was a wild colonial boy,
Jack Doolan was his name
Of poor but honest parents,
He was born in a Castlemaine,
He was his father's only son,
His mother's pride and joy,
And dearly did his parents love,
Their wild colonial boy "

"At the tender age of sixteen years,
Jack left his native home,
And to (or through) Australia's sunny shores,
A bushranger did roam,
He robbed the lordly squatters,
And (mumble something) of their toys,
A terror to Australia was,
The wild colonial boy.."

and so on.

For a thorough background to the origins of the song try [http://hyperhistory.org/index.php?option=displaypage&Itemid=674&op=page The Wild Colonial Boy Turning Legend into History]By Allen Mawer - The National Centre for History Education

Tim O'Leary (talk) 14:01, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Chinamen

As much as I dislike most people of oriental descent, isn't the term "chinaman" derogatory when used on a encyclopedia? 88.110.253.25 23:13, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry you dislike most people of oriental descent, but this is not the place to voice such prejudice Millbanks 08:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• Changed - you could have edited it too :-) --Arktos ^talk 23:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Are we talking about the guys who made the railroads? Alastairward 23:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

No, the Afghans built the railways. Millbanks 08:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

wow...actually the term "oriental" is equally offensive. Jaardon (talk) 11:53, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Why is "oriental" offensive in itself? It just means "eastern".Ondewelle (talk) 08:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Ned Kelly is particularly a hero for the Australian Celtic community, who view him as an anti-racist legend.

I removed the above sentence, as there seems to be several things wrong with it:

• Firstly it is entirely unsourced.
• The concept of an "Australian Celtic community", surely a complete fallicy.
• Anti-racist? How so? Maybe the writer is referring to anti-Irish racism. This does not sit neatly with the facts - an Irishman who murdered three Irish policemen, and was condemned to death by an Irish judge. If Kelly was unfairly persecuted, it was for a combination of factors, him being a poor Irish Catholic son of a convict. Several factors - and far more complex than some simple racism.
• Legend - maybe, but not for the reasons in this sentence.

--Michael Johnson 01:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

You obviously have no understanding of the Irish identity if you call the judge Irish.

Well, I'm from Ireland myself, and I call the judge Irish. The man in question, Sir Redmond Barry, was born in Ballyclough, Co Cork, educated at Trinity College, Dublin, and a member of the Irish Bar. Ned Kelly, in contrast, was Australian born, and bred. How can you say that Kelly was Irish and Barry not? Millbanks 08:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The Attorney General of Victoria at the time of Kelly's trial and execution was another Irishman, Sir Bryan O'Loghlen. He was born in Co Clare and educated at Trinity College, Dublin. I find your comments about "understanding of the Irish identity" a bit odd. Millbanks 08:46, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Article is lacking evidence - Ned Kelly

This article needs a good work over and citations. Some claims in this article are untrue and unsourced. Have made a few changes and added the essential citations and will rework some other comments. Comments quoted from another website aren't evidence.Tonyob 04:11, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Ned Kelly as Political Icon

The following post was edited by the author 8th Jan.

With removal of additional new paragraphs on the subject, with respect, I am hopeful to have some of it if not all re-instated. Further onging research into the 'Gorman' / Kelly / Berrigan ANA / Federation League Berrigan connections are verifiable. web page http://www.ironicon.com.au/nativened.htm

I look forward to see a balanced view presented, not one where Ned is always expunged from our history except for bushranging, murder and outlawry. I can understand reluctance to have information posted on Wikipedia if it is not entirely true. However, when does truth become accepted?

I agree the current text under heading 'Ned Kelly as political Icon' is short and sweet, and goes some way to explain what Ned could have been, but fails to explain how close he was to our political structure via Federation.

I will not re edit the page, but hope someone will consider the connections and make mention of it.

With thanks Bill Denheld 5 Jan 2007 edited 8 Jan 07

The underlying principle for Wikipedia is not that something is "true" but that it is "verifiable". So we do not include what we "know" but what we can find a source for. Find a written source to support your POV and it can be included, with the source. --Michael Johnson 03:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Michael, Verification will not be too difficult as it is underpined by truth. With thanks, Bill

Introduction

The author of the last change to the introduction has asked for it to be discussed on the talk page. As requested here are my comments:

his violent confrontations in home-made plate metal armour and helmet There was only one confrontation in armour.

gained made him hu?

most well-known perhaps best-known?

He was hanged at Melbourne Gaol after being wounded in a showdown Wasn't there a trial in between?

at Glenrowan in 1880 disjointed from the above mentioned confrontations.

The introduction as it stands now needs to be re-written.

--Michael Johnson 11:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I've edited the introduction to comver many of the concerns above. Please note the use of the work iconic. I believe this best represents Kelly's position in Australian history. --Michael Johnson 00:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

'as game as Ned Kelly'

The Australian term 'as game as Ned Kelly' entered the language and is a common expression. Could someone explain what this expression means? --Ace Frahm 15:51, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

"As game as Ned Kelly", is defined in the Australian Macquarie Dictionary as 'very game, fearless'. The term is used to describe another person: eg. 'Bill is as game as Ned Kelly.', or 'Bill is gamer than Ned Kelly.' It is a form of compliment or praise suggesting that Bill will take on any-one, any thing or any adversity, when others would run away.JjPhantom 04:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Stringybark Killings

It says in the article that the constable pulled out a revolver and in the first volley of fire shot and killed ned instantly. No chance. He was hung at glenrowan right? Are you sure it wasn't dan who was killed? Check it. -- Will James 09:51, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

GET A PIC OF HIM WITH HIS HELM ON SO FOOLS FROM AMERICA AND BRITAIN CAN RECOGNISE HIM :P!!!!!! plus the one with the beard is lame...it defeats the purpose of Ned Kelly ....literally

Vandalism?

The phrase, "ejaculated on some parrots" found its way into the article. Could someone investigate and restore the the original text? Thanks.

We're seeing quite a lot of vandalism of this article. Perhaps it might be a good idea to protect it for a while? DrJon 11:50, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Someone changed one of the titles to Dick Head, someone please change? Cheers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.222.36.45 (talk) 12:30, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

"Eat my shorts" quote? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.173.157 (talk) 02:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Ned Kelly

Ned Kelly

Edward "Ned" Kelly (c. January 1855 – 11 November 1880) is Australia's most famous bushranger, and, to many, a folk hero for his defiance of the colonial authorities. Born near Melbourne to an Irish convict father, as a young man he clashed with the police. After an incident at his home, police parties went in search of him. After murdering three policemen, he and his gang were proclaimed outlaws. A final violent confrontation with police at Glenrowan, with Kelly dressed in home-made plate metal armour and helmet, led to his capture and trial. He was executed by hanging at Melbourne Gaol in 1880. His daring and notoriety made him an iconic figure in Australian history, folk lore, literature, art and film.

John "Red" Kelly, the father of Ned Kelly, was convicted in Ireland and transported to Van Diemen's Land. There is uncertainty surrounding "Red's" conviction and as most of Ireland's court records were destroyed during the Irish Civil War it is unlikely to be resolved.

Jones claims that 'Red' stole two pigs belonging to Coloney. Brown suggested 'Red' attempted to shoot an Irish landlord. Another claims 'Red' stole two pigs, which were the property of a Mr Quainy. According to Jones, 'Red' was an informer, but again this claim is contested. Whatever his crime, 'Red' was sentenced to seven years of penal servitude and transported to Van Diemen's Land (now Tasmania) and arrived in 1843.

After his release in 1848, Red moved to Victoria in 1849 and found work in Beveridge at the farm of James Quinn. Red Kelly, aged 30, married Quinn's daughter Ellen, then 18. Their first child died early, but Ellen then gave birth to a daughter, Annie, in 1853. In all they had eight children.

Their first son, Edward (Ned) Kelly, was born in Beveridge, Victoria just north of Melbourne in 1855. The exact date is unknown; various dates have been proposed, but there is no general agreement.

Ned was baptized by Augustinian priest Charles O'Hea. As a boy, he attended school and risked his life to save another boy, Richard Shelton, who was drowning. As a reward he was given a green sash by the boy's family, which he wore under his armour during his final showdown with police in 1880.

The Kellys were always suspected of cattle or horse stealing, though they were never convicted. 'Red' Kelly was arrested when he killed and skinned a calf, which the police said belonged to a neighbour. He was found not guilty of theft, but guilty of having removed the brand from the skin and fined 25 pounds or six months with hard labour. Not having money to pay the fine Red went to Kilmore gaol. The saga surrounding Red, and his treatment by the police, remained with Ned.

Red Kelly died at Avenel Vic on 27 December 1866 when Ned was only eleven and a half (as recorded by Ned on death certificate)[citation needed], and according to custom, he was forced to leave school to become head of the family. It was at this time, that the Kelly family moved to the Glenrowan area of Victoria, which to this day is known as Kelly Country. Ned grew up in poverty in some of the harshest conditions in Australia, and folk tales tell of his sleeping on the ground in the bush during the Victorian winter.

In all, 18 charges were brought against members of Ned's immediate family before he was declared an outlaw, while only half that number resulted in guilty verdicts. This is a highly unusual ratio for the time, and is one of the reasons that has caused many to posit that Ned's family was unfairly targeted from the time they moved to North-East Victoria. Perhaps the move was necessary because of Ellen's squabbles with family members and her appearances in court over family disputes.[1] O'Brien, (1999) however argued that Victoria's colonial policing in those days had nothing to do with winning a conviction, rather the determinant of one's criminality was the arrest.[2] Further, O'Brien argued, using the 'Statistics of Victoria' crime figures that the region's or family's or national criminality was determined not by individual arrests, but rather by the total number of arrests.[3]

Rise to notoriety In 1869, 14-year-old Ned was arrested for assaulting a Chinese pig farmer named Ah Fook.[4] Ah Fook claimed that he had been robbed by Ned, whose story was that Ah Fook had a row with his sister Annie. Ned spent ten days in custody before the charges were dismissed. From then on the police regarded him as a "juvenile bushranger".

The following year, he was arrested and accused of being an accomplice of bushranger Harry Power. No evidence was produced in court and he was released after a month. Historians tend to disagree over this episode: some see it as evidence of police harassment; others believe that Kelly’s relatives intimidated the witnesses, making them reluctant to give evidence. Kelly would later admit to being an accomplice of Power [citation needed], who was eventually arrested while hiding out on land belonging to Kelly's relatives. Ned's grandfather, James Quinn, owned a huge piece of land known as Glenmore Station at the head waters of the King River. It was at the top of this land where Power lived - on Quinn's land. Just over the range on the other side of King River is Stringybark Creek (see below).

In October 1870, Ned was arrested again for assaulting a hawker, Jeremiah McCormack, and for his part in sending McCormack's childless wife an indecent note that had calves' testicles enclosed. This was a result of a row earlier that day caused when McCormack accused a friend of the Kellys, Ben Gould, of using his horse without permission. Gould wrote the note, and Kelly passed it on to one of his cousins to give to the woman. He was sentenced to three months' hard labour on each charge.

Upon his release Ned returned home. There he met Isaiah "Wild" Wright who had arrived in the area on a beautiful chestnut mare. The mare had gone missing and since Wright needed to go back to Mansfield he asked Ned to find and keep it until his return. Ned found the mare and used it to go to town. He always maintained that he had no idea that the mare actually belonged to the Mansfield postmaster and that Wright had stolen it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.180.205.106 (talk) 08:19, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

In the section on bank robberies - "to their credit" ??

To their credit they were only thieves not murderers!

Perhaps this should be cut —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.69.8.57 (talk) 21:52, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Lonigan or Lonergan?

In the section about the stringybrook creek killings, I believe that the name is supposed to be spelt Lonergan as apposed to Lonigan, however I'm not certain and don't want to make a change unless others know the correct spelling. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.222.126.54 (talk) 10:59, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Lonigan

Correct spelling of Const. Thomas Lonigan's name is 'Lonigan'. However, several reasons why his name is so often misspelt is that the Age newspaper of the day spelt his name as 'Lanigan'. Many newspapers in the late 1800s got name spellings incorrect. Sometimes 'Lonigan' is incorrectly spelt (as is not a common version).

In passing, Michael Scanlon's name is misspelt on his tombstone in Mansfield cemetery (Scanlan) and his age (35) is incorrect; he was 36 years. Lonigan's age is also recorded as 34 years on his tombstone; he was 37 years old. Such mistakes etc during the era and often catchs-out researchers and family historians. Is this claim verifable? Yep! Tom Pryor, et al, A Pictorial History of Bushrangers, 1968, p. 110.

Also the Creek is 'Stringybark' not brook - see we all make mistrakes. 'Stringybark' is an Australian tree, which as you guessed it is a combination of two words; stringy & bark. It is a bit like 'Shark' also made up of two Australian words; the last two you say before the shark eats you... Sh.. and ... you guess the other. Tonyob (talk) 07:04, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

semi-protect?

This article cops an absolute hammering from vandals. It has been pointed out to me that reversions are not keeping up and rubbish is seeping into the article long term. How do people feel about long-term semi-protection? Hesperian 03:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Ned_Kelly_.28edit.7Ctalk.7Chistory.7Clinks.7Cwatch.7Clogs.29 - please note the request - protection is essential - there a residual bits of vandalism throughout the article that are becoming embedded due to not very well thought out reversions - SatuSuro 03:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Edits

Recent edits have seen residual vandalism left in the article - any help in restoring resctions to their correct state would be appreciated - thanks SatuSuro 04:18, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I restored it to what appeared to me to be the last clean version. Do you see any other residual vandalism?--Kubigula (talk) 04:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Not what I saw when I was following last batch of vndlsm - thank yu for your help SatuSuro 04:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

blue mountains

it is a beautiful site to look for crap

Needs a good image up top

The article needs a good image of Ned Kelly - in armour - right at the top of the article. This is what he is most famous for. That metal mask. It's how most people recognise him. Surely, there must be a free image of Ned Kelly in armour? Thanks, Lester 21:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Why would there be? He didn't dress up in it in front of a photographer, did he? Or is there something I'm missing? Phoenix Song (talk) 13:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I've found this (http://calisto.slv.vic.gov.au/latrobejournal/issue/latrobe-69/fig-latrobe-69-048a.html), and I'm trying to verify both its accuracy and its copyright status. Phoenix Song (talk) 14:01, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Photo of Kelly Amour

Phoenix Song : The photo you mentioned at the site(http://calisto.slv.vic.gov.au/latrobejournal/issue/latrobe-69/fig-latrobe-69-048a.html), appears to be Joe Byrne's suit and helmet; not Kelly's. The citation is that it belonged to Superintendent Hare and this would reinforce that it was Joe Byrne's suit. Hare kept Joe's suit as a 'war trophy' and he (Hare) was closely connected to Rupertswood's then owner. The rifle possibly has nothing to do with the Kelly story, as it appears to be of a type later than 1880.Tonyob (talk) 11:19, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Article Quality

This article seems to be comprised of fragments from both a pro-Kelly and anti-Kelly standpoint. While reading it, I noted several occurances of what I would have to say are weasel words--on both sides. This whole article needs to be rewritten: citations are absent, the format of the article is tiring (pro-Kelly version, anti-Kelly version, pro-Kelly rebuttal, etc.) and convoluted. I am no Kelly expert, or I'd rewrite it myself. As is, I'll be happy to try to find reputable sources to back up any of the information--help would be appreciated. Phoenix Song (talk) 13:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree with your sentiments (see above). However, in our land of Oz, these Kelly debates continue a century plus after his death. Some still have to move beyond an 1870s view of the Colony. In the interim, I'll try to get more citations into the piece in the hope that others won't delete if they disagree. Tonyob (talk) 05:33, 16 August 2008 (UTC)