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| {{cite book |last1=Cotter |first1=Christopher R. |editor1-last=Bullivant |editor1-first=Stephen |editor2-last=Ruse |editor2-first=Michael |title=The Cambridge History of Atheism |date=2021 |publisher=Cambridge University Press |isbn=978-1-0090-4021-1 |pages=1007–1023 |doi=10.1017/9781108562324.055 |chapter=New Atheism}} |
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== Useful Ref == |
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==Criticism section?== |
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* https://www.vanguardngr.com/2021/05/reality-versus-illusion-how-religion-poisons-everything-4/ |
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The [[New Atheism]] article needs a ''Criticism'' section in order to be neutral otherwise the article becomes nothing more than a vehicle to promote New Atheism. I propose we summarize the views of [[Chris Hedges]] in his Truthdig column ''[http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070523_chris_hedges_i_dont_believe_in_atheists/ I don't believe in atheists]'' and Tom Flynn's Free Inquiry article ''[http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=flynn_30_3 Why I Don’t Believe in the New Atheism]'' as representatives of the two most common criticisms. --[[User:Loremaster|Loremaster]] ([[User talk:Loremaster|talk]]) 22:17, 15 November 2010 (UTC) |
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:I see no reason not to. As long as it doesn't become [[WP:UNDUE]], keeping in mind that those are both [[WP:PSTS|primary sources]], go for it. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 23:56, 19 November 2010 (UTC) |
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::Done. --[[User:Loremaster|Loremaster]] ([[User talk:Loremaster|talk]]) 21:53, 26 November 2010 (UTC) |
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[[User:Bookku| Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge']] ([[User talk:Bookku|talk]]) 10:01, 6 October 2021 (UTC) |
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I agree that every article NEEDS a criticism section. Loremaster, you must be reading a different article. The article is far from a promotion for New Atheism. The first section clearly enlightens the reader to the negative view some regard New Atheism. I agree with Flynn in the criticism section. New Atheism is just Old Atheism. There is now a larger audience that knows the rational arguments and scientific facts against theism. I guess you aren't aware that "New Atheism" is a term used by theists, Christians in particular, as an insult.[[User:Berringerfan|Berringerfan]] ([[User talk:Berringerfan|talk]]) 21:03, 5 April 2011 (UTC) |
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:* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypkIq5FjskM God and atheism on YouTube - Al Jazeera English Youtube link] |
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:Berringerfan, I am fully aware that the term "New Atheism" is used negatively by Christian critics. However, although the lead section does in fact briefly inform readers of the negative view some regard New Atheism, the article ''overall'' was uncritical until I added the ''Criticism'' section. Futhermore, the lead section should be a summary/overview of content in the body of the article including content in the ''Criticism'' section. In other words, if there are no criticism in the body of article there shouldn't be any in the lead section. That being said, your deletion of Chris Hedges's criticism is unjustified: Not only is he a notable author who has written an explicit critique of so-called New Atheism but his criticism is far more negative that the sympathetic criticism Flynn expressed who is an atheist himself. Therefore, these two viewpoints are the most reprensentatives of the two most common criticisms of New Atheism. So it is obvious that you are simply trying to [[Whitewash (censorship)|whitewash]] this article. --[[User:Loremaster|Loremaster]] ([[User talk:Loremaster|talk]]) 22:28, 5 April 2011 (UTC) |
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:[[User:Bookku| Bookku ]] ([[User talk:Bookku|talk]]) 14:03, 27 February 2024 (UTC) |
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== A draft take over request == |
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:Why does every article need a criticism section? What would you put in the criticism sections of [[Kittens]], [[Helium]], or [[Set theory]]? {{=)}} [[User:Bobrayner|bobrayner]] ([[User talk:Bobrayner|talk]]) 21:12, 5 April 2011 (UTC) |
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Greetings, |
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::Bobrayner, although Wikipedia encourages us to incorporate criticisms in the body of the article as opposed to creating a ''Criticism'' section, the existence of such a section is justified because of how useful it is for users who are searching quickly for relevant information. That being said, there is obviously a difference between an '''idea''' which automatically provokes philosophical debate about its ''validity'' and a kitten BUT the ''Criticism'' section of a chemical element could actually contain arguments from some chemists who debate whether or not it should reclassified as something else. As for ''Set theory'' article, it does have a ''Criticism'' section of sorts: the [[Set_theory#Objections_to_set_theory_as_a_foundation_for_mathematics|Objections to set theory as a foundation for mathematics]] section. --[[User:Loremaster|Loremaster]] ([[User talk:Loremaster|talk]]) 22:38, 5 April 2011 (UTC) |
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I did rewrite an article [[Draft:Ex-Muslim activism in Kerala]] which was not originally mine. I just helped it to my capacity and I will prefer some one else takes over the process of further improving of the draft. |
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:::I disagree with the inclusion of the Hedges paragraph as it is now. It appears to give a ''very large'' amount of weight to his personal ideas about the topic, and I see no reason that his thoughts or his book are any more notable than anyone else's. Berringerfan removed the paragraph, and it was [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=New_Atheism&curid=23083748&diff=422581673&oldid=422580029 reverted] by Loremaster with no edit summary. I would be inclined to remove it myself, unless there's a compelling reason that Hedges should be mentioned, especially in such detail. — [[User:Mann_jess|<b>Jess</b>]]<span style="margin:0 7px;font-variant:small-caps;font-size:0.9em">· [[Special:Contributions/Mann_jess|Δ]][[User_talk:Mann_jess|♥]]</span> 23:45, 5 April 2011 (UTC) |
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Thanks |
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::::Putting aside the fact his POV is representative of the POV of many critics of New Atheism, [[Chris Hedges]] is a Pulitzer-winning journalist and author who not only has written a book critical of New Atheism but [http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070523_chris_hedges_i_dont_believe_in_atheists/ he has actually debated a famous New Atheist (Sam Harris) in a public forum using arguments he expands upon in his book]! He is obviously the most notable critic of New Atheism one can find and therefore a reliable source for content in the ''Criticism'' section of the [[New Atheism]] article. It seems like all these objections to the disputed Hedges paragraph come from people sympathetic towards New Atheism who simply want to whitewash this article of hard criticisms. I will therefore fight any attempt to remove this paragraph. By the way, the fact that no one objects to the “very large” amount of weight given to Tom Flynn's personal views about the topic (which is almost the same size!) reeks of bias. --[[User:Loremaster|Loremaster]] ([[User talk:Loremaster|talk]]) 00:53, 6 April 2011 (UTC) |
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[[User:Bookku| Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge']] ([[User talk:Bookku|talk]]) 02:21, 27 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::This article on New Atheism is meant to be informative. It is! It certainly isn't an apologetic article. Plus it's short. Really short! Flynn's comments in the criticism section is more than enough for this article. Again, this article is to inform people on what New Atheism is believed to be. It's not to be a point counterpoint debate article on the validity of New Atheism.[[User:Berringerfan|Berringerfan]] ([[User talk:Berringerfan|talk]]) 01:39, 6 April 2011 (UTC) |
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== Criticisms from David Bentley Hart: "Deleted out of place, unsourced claim" == |
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{{od}}#The fact that a critical opinion from a notable and reliable source is interpreted as “nothing more than a personal POV” or “inflammatory” or “overkill” by some readers is not a valid reason to delete it. Criticisms regardless of how insulting they are can still be informative. The irony in all of this is that New Atheist criticism of religion are equally if not more personal POVs that “inflammatory overkill” than anything Hedges wrote. |
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#The fact that this article is the ''Lead'', ''History'' and ''New perspectives'' sections of this article are not a valid reason to delete content from the ''Criticism'' section of the article. It is only one more reason to expand these sections to reach whatever balance you imagine this article is missing. |
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#The inclusion of the Hedges paragraph is not meant to be part of a point counterpoint debate. As I explained before, it is representative of one of the most common criticism against New Atheism expressed by many of its critics. |
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#I have a right to preserve the quality of this article by restoring content from a notable and reliable source since none of your arguments to delete the disputed paragraph hold up. |
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--[[User:Loremaster|Loremaster]] ([[User talk:Loremaster|talk]]) 01:50, 6 April 2011 (UTC) |
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{{ping|GenoV84}} can you please further explain your deletion of the "Criticisms from David Bentley Hart" section that I wrote? I can understand if it was "out of place" in the sense that it belongs elsewhere in the criticism section. However, I don't understand your note that it was an "unsourced claim." It is a very prominent criticism of New Atheism that has received sustained attention in numerous book reviews, major awards, etc. I had several references regarding some examples. I'm glad to talk here with you about how to improve the content, but I would appreciate a review by some other editors if your position is that this information does not belong in this article at all. Thank you for the time. [[User:Jjhake|Jjhake]] ([[User_talk:Jjhake|talk]]) 22:13, 25 January 2023 (UTC) |
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:Loremaster, your accusations that I am attempting to "whitewash this article of hard criticisms" is wildly inappropriate. Please [[WP:AGF|AGF]]. Further, that Hedges wrote a book says very little. Lots of people write books - professional journalists and authors being a large number of them. We don't want to include every mention in every book ever, particularly those which are simply the personal opinion of the individual author. His criticisms would be valid to include only if they are notable. We can demonstrate they are notable if we can document in reliable sources that they are shared (or quoted) by others, which we currently have not done. Right now, all we have is a primary source representing the personal musings of one author on the topic. We need more than that. Furthermore, even if the content is to be included, it needs to be rewritten. Currently, it presumes to know the mindset of "many new atheists" in wikipedia's voice, and represents the views of Hedges purely pejoratively, without backing up the claims with appropriate context. As written, it isn't a "criticism", it's a personal attack on the topic written in the encyclopedia's voice. Lastly, Berringerfan, please stop edit warring. One more revert and you'll have violated 3rr, which may result in a block. This needs to be discussed constructively, and edit warring is purely disruptive. — [[User:Mann_jess|<b>Jess</b>]]<span style="margin:0 7px;font-variant:small-caps;font-size:0.9em">· [[Special:Contributions/Mann_jess|Δ]][[User_talk:Mann_jess|♥]]</span> 02:12, 6 April 2011 (UTC) |
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:{{ping|GenoV84}} sorry to bother you with the above, but you can disregard it. I had stupidly thought you deleted the entire section, but I see upon looking more closely that you were just removing the little sample from the book of Hart's rhetorical style. It makes sense that such a rhetorical style sample doesn't belong here. Please excuse my pointless messages here. [[User:Jjhake|Jjhake]] ([[User_talk:Jjhake|talk]]) 22:19, 25 January 2023 (UTC) |
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::Jess, although your “it's only his personal opinion” argument is fallacious, the issue of the notability of a criticism could be used against mentioning Tom Flynn's personal opinion in the article... --[[User:Loremaster|Loremaster]] ([[User talk:Loremaster|talk]]) 17:30, 6 April 2011 (UTC) |
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== Not Anything == |
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I don't think Hedges' opinion needs to be omitted entirely; he sums up a criticism that seems common enough in Atheist communities online so it bears noting. But I do feel the paragraph that has been going in is too long and could be easily summed up by trimming some of the quotes and commentary. What about something along these lines (just trimming from a copy paste of recent edit, pardon bad punctuation and formatting): |
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New atheism is not anything outlined here. What is outlined here is Atheism. Same as it ever was. Not new. Not old. Just Atheism. |
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In his 2008 book I Don't Believe in Atheists (retitled When Atheism Becomes Religion: America's New Fundamentalists for the paperback),[23] journalist and author Chris Hedges argues that there is nothing inherently moral about being either a believer or a nonbeliever. He accuses New Atheists in particular of being as intolerant and self-righteous as their archrivals, religious fundamentalists. |
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'New atheism' is only an example of two words arbitrarily placed beside each other, with no inherent meaning whatsoever. A phrase that ought not exist anywhere. Axiomatically, this wikipedia entry ought not exist. [[Special:Contributions/49.180.90.162|49.180.90.162]] ([[User talk:49.180.90.162|talk]]) 11:10, 1 November 2023 (UTC) |
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:I agree in that the people called 'New Atheist' are not actually identifying themselves as anything other than atheist. The new part is merely that they are now open about it. |
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My reasoning on some of the cutting: |
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:In that sense, the atheists haven't changed. They have the same views. Religion has just lost enough of it's power that it can't silence them anymore. |
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*intolerant already covers most of the rest of the list of adjectives (bigoted, chauvenist, etc.) and to add them is redundant |
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:However, there is also more to describe there than just atheism as a lack of belief in god : atheist intellectuals, the atheist movement, atheist activism. |
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*his further commentary on being disgusted with the religious right is 1) not so relavant to this article and 2) a little redundant since the comparison is already noted ("just as blah blah blah as archrivals") |
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:And then there's secular humanism which has a lot of cross-over with atheism but not entirely. |
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*progressing morally as a species isn't really relevant at large since it's not something all atheists agree on anyway (i.e. it's not presented in the article as being a specific common belief so why bring it up now) |
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:So maybe 'the atheist movement' , 'atheist activism' would be better terms ? Just thinking out loud here [[Special:Contributions/83.134.161.138|83.134.161.138]] ([[User talk:83.134.161.138|talk]]) 11:55, 23 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== Ayaan Hirshi Ali == |
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THoughts? [[User:Millahnna|Millahnna]] ([[User talk:Millahnna|talk]]) 02:22, 6 April 2011 (UTC) |
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Perhaps the section on Ayaan Hirshi Ali should be updated given her recent article where she now identifies as a christian. |
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:Millahnna, I agree with your reasoning and I would support your proposed compromise. --[[User:Loremaster|Loremaster]] ([[User talk:Loremaster|talk]]) 17:23, 6 April 2011 (UTC) |
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Source: https://unherd.com/2023/11/why-i-am-now-a-christian/ [[Special:Contributions/83.134.161.138|83.134.161.138]] ([[User talk:83.134.161.138|talk]]) 11:39, 23 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:Her "conversion" is mentioned in the article. Anyway as far as I know she has yet to state publicly that she believes in God, so she seems to be some sort of [[Christian atheist]].[[User:Tammbeck|<span style="background:#white; color:#008000; padding:2px;">'''''Tammbeck'''''</span>]][[User talk:Tammbeck|<span style="background:#white; color:#008000; padding:2px;"><sup>'''''talk'''''</sup></span>]] 12:36, 23 December 2023 (UTC) |
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== The New Atheism == |
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::@Loremaster, Simply calling my argument fallacious doesn't do much to advance the conversation. Could you at least try and respond to the content of my reply? Thanks. |
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::@Millahnna, That is a drastic improvement, but I'm still not sure why Hedges' opinion that "New Atheists are intolerant" is worth noting at all. I could cite a whole host of books which call New Atheists all sorts of things, but it would be inappropriate to list them all here. Again, do we have any sources (other than this primary one) which indicate Hedges opinion is notable? If it isn't notable, then creating a whole criticism section to house it violates [[WP:Undue]]. — [[User:Mann_jess|<b>Jess</b>]]<span style="margin:0 7px;font-variant:small-caps;font-size:0.9em">· [[Special:Contributions/Mann_jess|Δ]][[User_talk:Mann_jess|♥]]</span> 18:32, 6 April 2011 (UTC) |
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The term the "New Atheism" was coined by Robert A. Morey in his book "The New Atheism and the Erosion of Freedom" in 1986. He later republished it in 1994 under the same name. Morey called Gordon Stein, Dennis McKinsey, Sheila Thompson of the Freedom From Religion Foundation as some of the New Atheists and this is where the term comes from. The person who writes the opening paragraph of the New Atheism in Wikipedia erroneously gives journalist Gary Wolf the credit for coining the name in 2006. Wolf may have read the book "The New Atheism" when he was younger and added this expression to his vocabulary and used it for the first time in 2006. I am not accusing Gary Wolf of intellectual dishonesty. I became an atheist around the time I read the book. I've used the New Atheism term every since I read Morey's book in about 1991. See here on Amazon.com |
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:::I don't know if Hedges book has been covered in secondary sources all that extensively, so you may be right that it would be undue in this case. I have seen his book talked about a fair amount on atheist blogs so I know it has some coverage within the community at large, but that is, of course, nothing we can use. Put another way, I don't have an answer for that half of the question. I just read the edit and saw a way to cut it down to a better summary of the intended content. |
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https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Robert+A.+Morey+The+New+Atheism+1994&crid=983CVAMXRLC7&sprefix=robert+a.+morey+the+new+atheism+1994%2Caps%2C93&ref=nb_sb_noss [[User:Saber Truth Tiger|Saber Truth Tiger]] ([[User talk:Saber Truth Tiger|talk]]) 21:33, 18 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::::A quick google search on the man's name shows that the book has been covered in Salon (a personal interview about the book) and that he has done some debating against at least one notable atheist (which actually led to the book apparently). But in general it looks like he is regarded as a war correspondent in his regular journalistic work. Other than a philosophical connection (i.e. religion and war) that probably brought him to the topic (just based on looking at his last few books as a progression of subject), it seems this is outside his usual purview. Am I making any sense?[[User:Millahnna|Millahnna]] ([[User talk:Millahnna|talk]]) 20:30, 6 April 2011 (UTC) |
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:This editor and the article are wrong. See for instance [https://cir.nii.ac.jp/crid/1130000797825812096] "Whose God is dead : the challenge of the new atheism" published around 1966. Do a Google Scholar search limiting time. See also The Sinners of Graham Greene |
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:::::Millahnna, although Hedges has won an award for his work as a war correspondent, he has written many books dealing with a broad randge of subjects (including history, philosophy, psychology, sociology, and theology) which reveal an impressive erudition and eloquence. For example, his book ''Empire of Illusion'' deals with the emergence of the [[postliterate society]]. So it would highly reductive to argue that atheism is outside perview. --[[User:Loremaster|Loremaster]] ([[User talk:Loremaster|talk]]) 21:28, 6 April 2011 (UTC) |
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:TA Wassmer - The Dalhousie Review, 1959 - [https://dalspace.library.dal.ca/bitstream/handle/10222/58831/dalrev_vol39_iss3_pp326_332.pdf?sequence=1] [[User:Doug Weller|<span style="color:#070">Doug Weller</span>]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 08:52, 21 January 2024 (UTC) |
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You're right. I will remove those references. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Saber Truth Tiger|Saber Truth Tiger]] ([[User talk:Saber Truth Tiger#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Saber Truth Tiger|contribs]]) 16:23, 21 January 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Ayaan Hirsi Ali Essay == |
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:::::Jess, I was at work so I didn't have time to fully respond to the content of your reply until now. The reason why your argument is fallacious is because 1) you haven't even read Hedges' book and you fail to realize that the summary of Hedges's book mentioned in this article doesn't do justice to the depth of the argument he develops in his book; 2) you assume that he is only expressing his personal opinion when in his book he discusses the views of famous philosophers and theologians who are critical of atheism; and 3) many so-called New Atheists can equally be criticized for solely expressing their personal opinion when they make imflammatory/overkill statements that “religion is evil” or “religion poisons everything”. However, it would be perfecly appropriate for a notable New Atheist's personal opinion to be included in Wikipedia's article on religion even if it insults religionists. |
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:::::Regardless, no one is arguing that we should document every mention of New Atheism in every article or book ever written on the subject. Chris Hedges was chosen because 1) he is a Pulitzer-winning journalist and author therefore a notable commentator; 2) his point of view is ''representative'' of the point of view of many critics of New Atheism so it's not being given undue weight; 3) his book is completely dedicated to a critique of atheism in general and New Atheism in particular; 4) [http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070523_chris_hedges_i_dont_believe_in_atheists/ he has actually debated a notable New Atheist (Sam Harris) in a public forum using arguments he expands upon in his book]; 5) his book has been covered by the press; and 6) primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia. |
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:::::I have no problem deleting the ''Criticism'' section and incorporating the criticisms it housed in the body of the article. However, the ''Criticism'' section wasn't created solely to house Hedges's criticism. It was created to house the most common “positive” criticism of New Atheism and the most most common “negative” criticism of New Atheism regarless of who expressed them as long as they are notable critics. That being said, not only do you ignore the weight the ''Criticism'' section also gives to Flynn's personal opinion but you fail to realize how hyprocritical it looks that you have never seemed troubled by the lack of notability of Flynn's personal opinion. --[[User:Loremaster|Loremaster]] ([[User talk:Loremaster|talk]]) 21:28, 6 April 2011 (UTC) |
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The source for Ayaan's conversion (source 6) is an intelligencer article. Wouldn't it be better to use a primary source? I don't know what would be preferable from a Wikipedia culture perspective but it makes sense to me to use a primary source when one is available. Not to mention how hostile the article linked is to Ayaan. I will make this change at some point if there are no objections. [[User:Recurreset|Recurreset]] ([[User talk:Recurreset|talk]]) 19:16, 22 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::@Loremaster, I'd appreciate it if you didn't make assumptions about my position and then call me hypocritical based on those assumptions. This article needs a lot of work. Right now we're talking about Hedges' section, and as such, I'm not drifting around and attacking random content in the article unrelated to it. As as I asked before, please [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]] and keep things [[WP:Civil|civil]] and on article improvement. Regarding your reply, I don't need to have read Hedges book (though, I never said I hadn't) in order to read and judge the content presented in this article. If, indeed, there's a wider breadth of content on the topic, then we should cover ''that'', but what we're presenting now is that Hedges' is of the opinion that New Atheists are intolerant. That sort of thing isn't encyclopedic unless Hedges himself is so notable as to warrant that sort of weight. AFAIK, he's not. As I stated above, if his position is indicative of a common attitude toward New Atheism, then we need to document it in reliable secondary sources, and reword it to be clear that it's a common attitude. I agree that the criticism section should be deleted and incorporated into the article, but if it is, that's the only way Hedges' section should be incorporated. |
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::::::@Millahnna, That does make sense. Thanks for the information! — [[User:Mann_jess|<b>Jess</b>]]<span style="margin:0 7px;font-variant:small-caps;font-size:0.9em">· [[Special:Contributions/Mann_jess|Δ]][[User_talk:Mann_jess|♥]]</span> 22:29, 6 April 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::#I never said you are an hypocrite. I said your inconsistency ''looks'' hypocritical. There is a difference. Furthermore, I can't assume your good faith when you keep avoiding a question that you would allow you to show your good faith. In other words, until you explain to us why the inclusion of Tom Flynn' personal opinion is acceptable to you despite the fact that there are no reliable secondary sources that indicate he is a notable commentator and that his position is indicative of a common attitude toward New Atheism, your objection to the disputed Hedges paragraph doesn't hold up. |
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:::::::#In light of the fact that one of the many arguments of New Atheists is that religionists are intolerant it is quite pertinent for a critic to point out that notable New Atheists are guilty being intolerant (which Hedges makes a good case for in greater detail in his book). That being said, despite my stated rationale for creating the ''Criticism'' section, being indicative of a common attitude toward the subject is not a Wikipedia requirement for the inclusion of a viewpoint. Wikipedia guidelines demand that we fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources. I have already argued why Hedges's viewpoint is significant. |
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:::::::#You seem to conveniently ignore the fact the disputed Hedges paragraph makes two other valid points: 1) there is nothing inherently moral about being either a theist or an atheist (despite opposing claims to the contrary from both parties); and 2) atheists and liberal Christians share the same myth that as a species humanity can progress morally despite all the evidence to the contrary. Hegdes expands these points in his book, which we are summarizing for the sake of conciseness. However, I would be more than happy if the article covered these two points in greater detail. |
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:::::::#Ultimately, you need to get it through your head that there is nothing un-encyclopedic about reporting a notable person's personal opinion on a given subject as long as the opinion is relevant. There are tons of good and even featured Wikipedia articles that contain such opinions. Furthermore, a primary source that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia ''without the support of secondary reliable sources being used to establish its notability''. |
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:::::::--[[User:Loremaster|Loremaster]] ([[User talk:Loremaster|talk]]) 23:29, 6 April 2011 (UTC) |
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Please let me suggest including both Flynn and Hedges, but shortening the discussions of both of them. Both could be about the length of what Millahnna suggested, or even shorter, and the whole thing could be a single paragraph. This page has been too essay-like anyway. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 23:40, 6 April 2011 (UTC) |
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:Although I support removing the words “chauvinistic, bigoted, anti-intellectual” from the disputed Hedges paragraph as well as removing their introductions, I'm actually opposed to further shortening the mention of viewpoints expressed by Hedges and Flynn since we would be losing note-worthy points that readers should have the benefit of being able to read here. So here is the compromise I propose: |
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::''[[Tom Flynn]] argues that "there's nothing new about the New Atheism". Throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, articulate writers had declared religion untrue, faith a social evil, and the archetypal stories told by the world's great creeds nothing but clumsy legends. Flynn points out that the difference is that when atheist material came from specialist publishers, such as the [[Rationalist Association|Rationalist Press Association]], it tended to stay within the atheist movement. The triumph of the so-called New Atheists was to take arguments against religion that were long familiar to insiders, brilliantly repackage them, release them through major publishers, and expose them to millions who would never otherwise pick up an atheist book.'' |
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::''[[Chris Hedges]] argues that there is nothing inherently moral about being either a believer or a nonbeliever. He goes a step further by accusing many New Atheists of being as intolerant and self-righteous as their archrivals, religious [[fundamentalism|fundamentalists]]—in other words, as being [[secularism|secular]] versions of the [[religious right]]. Like the New Atheists, Hedges is disgusted with the [[Christian right]], going so far as to call it the most frightening mass movement in American history. Even more disturbing for Hedges, however, is the notion which many atheists and [[liberal Christianity|liberal Christians]] share, that as a species humanity can progress morally. There is nothing in [[human nature]] or human history to support the idea, Hedges maintains, nor that the flaws of human nature will ever be overcome.'' |
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:If this compromise is acceptable to everyone, the real issue is how to best incorporate these viewpoints in the article without creating a ''Criticism'' section. --[[User:Loremaster|Loremaster]] ([[User talk:Loremaster|talk]]) 00:18, 7 April 2011 (UTC) |
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:{{ec}}@Loremaster, [[WP:AGF]] is a policy, not an option, and I'm under no obligation to discuss unrelated parts of the article in order to validate this discussion. Lots of this article needs to be reworked. The Hedges section is one of them. [[WP:Weight]] clearly states that a view must be presented in proportion to its significance. If Hedges' views are not common, and his work is not notable, then the proper weight is zero. By presenting a single primary source, we have not demonstrated his views are common, and I see no compelling argument that his work is notable other than [[WP:ILIKEIT|"I like it"]]. As I've indicated above, I actually agree with Trypto that both authors could be included per Millahnna's suggestion. However, I strongly oppose the inclusion of ''either's'' personal opinion on the subject without establishing notability. Criticism of the topic is necessary given its prominence, but we need to choose ''good'' criticism, not simply fling out insults. — [[User:Mann_jess|<b>Jess</b>]]<span style="margin:0 7px;font-variant:small-caps;font-size:0.9em">· [[Special:Contributions/Mann_jess|Δ]][[User_talk:Mann_jess|♥]]</span> 00:25, 7 April 2011 (UTC) |
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::If you truly believe that I want to include Hedges's viewpoint simply because I like it after every point I made, you have proven your bad faith despite the fact that I keep assuming your good faith. Therefore, debating you any longer is a waste of time. I'll limit myself to responding to comments from others joining this debate and abide by the consensus. --[[User:Loremaster|Loremaster]] ([[User talk:Loremaster|talk]]) 01:36, 7 April 2011 (UTC) |
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===Arbitrary break=== |
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I would still further trim those (assuming the notability concerns Jess raises can be met). [http://www.salon.com/books/int/2008/03/13/chris_hedges this is the Salon interview] I mentioned in an earlier reply. I don't know if that helps take steps towards notability or not but there it is (timeing wise looks like it was part of his press tour after publishing the book). Here's a pass at a trim. |
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''Tom Flynn points out that when atheist material came from specialist publishers, such as the Rationalist Press Association, it tended to stay within the atheist movement. He argues that New Atheism isn't presenting new ideas so much as repackaging existing ones, releasing them through major publishers, and exposing them to people who might never pick up an atheist book. |
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''In his 2008 book I Don't Believe in Atheists (retitled When Atheism Becomes Religion: America's New Fundamentalists for the paperback),[23] journalist and author Chris Hedges argues that there is nothing inherently moral about being either a believer or a nonbeliever. He accuses New Atheists in particular of being as intolerant and self-righteous as their archrivals, religious fundamentalists. '' |
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Reasoning on Tom Flynn changes: cuts to the crux of his commentary. [[User:Millahnna|Millahnna]] ([[User talk:Millahnna|talk]]) 00:42, 7 April 2011 (UTC) |
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*I see no discussion about atheism being "more moral" in the article - so how could a comment about that be 1>balanced 2>relevant?--[[User:JimWae|JimWae]] ([[User talk:JimWae|talk]]) 00:51, 7 April 2011 (UTC) |
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:Good point. I kept it because my interpretation was that he was saying neither believers or non-believers are better than each other. But we couldn't really rephrase that way sicne it would amount to synth or original research. So cutting that would bring it down to something like this: |
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''In his 2008 book I Don't Believe in Atheists (retitled When Atheism Becomes Religion: America's New Fundamentalists for the paperback),[23] journalist and author Chris Hedges argues accuses New Atheists of being as intolerant and self-righteous as their archrivals, religious fundamentalists. '' |
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:If commentary on the article about morality were ever developed it would b easy enough to add back in. This still doesn't address Jess's concerns. From my own involvement in atheist circles I feel like the comments both Flynn and Hedges are making are fairly common criticisms. But I'm not finding too much in the way of secondary coverage in my (admittedly only idle) searching while this conversation is going on. My main interest is in text flow and being concise IF the text is included. [[User:Millahnna|Millahnna]] ([[User talk:Millahnna|talk]]) 01:05, 7 April 2011 (UTC) |
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:Actually, just because the article doesn't fully present all the arguments New Atheists make it against religion doesn't mean that the criticisms against these missing arguments should not be included. That being said and keeping in mind that the overall lenght of these criticisms was never an issue until Millahnna made her suggestion, I am still opposed to it for reasons already explained. --[[User:Loremaster|Loremaster]] ([[User talk:Loremaster|talk]]) 01:30, 7 April 2011 (UTC) |
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::Admittedly, I'm a bit of a stickler for unneeded length; I mostly edit film and tv articles so I trim entirely too many plot summaries (I poke my nose in on atheism related articles because of a general topical interest but you guys probably don't see me often). But the main point of my suggestions was not so much a length issue as a cutting to the main point of each man's thoughts. |
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::A lot of the verbage in the original paragraphs struck me as being excessive and potentially unbalanced. For example from the original Flynn statements "The triumph of the so-called New Atheists" seemed like WE were using the term "so called". In the Hedges portion "He goes a step further " again feels like a judgment call on our part. This can lead to confusion for readers in my experience. Also, in watching the debate before I jumped in, it seemed like some of the issues others had with the commentary could be addressed by eliminating the bits I was concerned about. |
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::In any case I've offered up my suggestions for how to use the text if it is used. and now I'm sort of researching both mens' thoughts in some of the skeptic sites I follow (Hedges I was already familiar with, Flynn I was not) for my own edification. If I find anything usable in terms of establishing notability or at least pointing in a direction. I'll drop it in here. [[User:Millahnna|Millahnna]] ([[User talk:Millahnna|talk]]) 02:12, 7 April 2011 (UTC) |
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:::@Millahnna, I think your proposal is a dramatic improvement. I still think stating that "Journalist X thinks New Atheists are intolerant" doesn't add much to the article unless we back it up with reasoning or secondary sources demonstrating it's a common criticism, but it definitely sidesteps a lot of the issues I had with the prior wording. I'm going to see if I can [[WP:BOLD|boldly]] find a place to put the Flynn statement (at least), since it seems to be in accord with most of the other editors. — [[User:Mann_jess|<b>Jess</b>]]<span style="margin:0 7px;font-variant:small-caps;font-size:0.9em">· [[Special:Contributions/Mann_jess|Δ]][[User_talk:Mann_jess|♥]]</span> 03:34, 7 April 2011 (UTC) |
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:::I moved the Flynn quote to the section above, per Millahnna's suggestion. I changed its introduction to match the previous wording for flow, and changed "points out" to "contends" per [[WP:Claim]]. Having read over the article again, I don't see a section where we've talked about the religious as being intolerant or self-righteous either, so making the statement "Hedges says New Atheists are ''as'' intolerant and self righteous as their archrivals" would be out of place. If we are to put that piece in, I think it really needs to be contextualized appropriately, such as: "New Atheists commonly claim that religious fundamentalists are intolerant of other faiths{{cn}}. In his 2008 book I Don't Believe in Atheists,[23] author Chris Hedges argues accuses New Atheists of being as intolerant as their archrivals, stating that "''whatever Hedges says about New Atheists being intolerant, in some useful format that isn't just name-calling''". In that case, we could place that in the "New Perspectives" section. I'm still not sure I like the idea totally, but if we can find a useful quote to place in there, and especially if we can source it as a common criticism, then I would support its addition. — [[User:Mann_jess|<b>Jess</b>]]<span style="margin:0 7px;font-variant:small-caps;font-size:0.9em">· [[Special:Contributions/Mann_jess|Δ]][[User_talk:Mann_jess|♥]]</span> 03:47, 7 April 2011 (UTC) |
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::::The warning statement at the top of the article stating that it is in dispute should be removed. With the new changes, there is nothing more to dispute. Perhaps the only thing this article lacks is the fact that "New Atheists" did not start calling themselves "New Atheists". It's a term meant to be derogatory coined by Christians.[[User:Berringerfan|Berringerfan]] ([[User talk:Berringerfan|talk]]) 17:51, 11 April 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::Done. — [[User:Mann_jess|<b>Jess</b>]]<span style="margin:0 7px;font-variant:small-caps;font-size:0.9em">· [[Special:Contributions/Mann_jess|Δ]][[User_talk:Mann_jess|♥]]</span> 21:50, 11 April 2011 (UTC) |
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Christian articles are filled with criticism by Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens etc. So criticism by Christians such as [[John Lennox]] and [[Alister McGrath]] should be added. [[User:Portillo|Portillo]] ([[User talk:Portillo|talk]]) 10:41, 9 October 2011 (UTC) |
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===Tom Flynn=== |
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“Tom Flynn […] argues that New Atheism isn't presenting new ideas so much as repackaging existing ones, […] and exposing them to people who might never pick up an atheist book.” |
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Is he really arguing that the books are being exposed to the people? I would have expected the reverse. [[User:Paul Magnussen|Paul Magnussen]] ([[User talk:Paul Magnussen|talk]]) 17:35, 15 July 2011 (UTC) |
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:Fixed, OK? --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 20:48, 15 July 2011 (UTC) |
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Tom Flynn's criticism has been deleted because he is not a notable enough figure to deserve his own section in this article. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/69.204.4.68|69.204.4.68]] ([[User talk:69.204.4.68|talk]]) 02:02, 3 October 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:And it's been added back because you need to bring such matters to the discussion page before doing such deleting. You might be right about Flynn's notability but you need to have reasons, not just an assertion. [[User:Afterwriting|Afterwriting]] ([[User talk:Afterwriting|talk]]) 07:42, 3 October 2011 (UTC) |
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::I agree that the material should be included, but I also think that using Flynn's name as a section heading has become [[WP:UNDUE]]. Per the extensive discussion at [[Talk:Militant atheism]], leading to that page being changed to a disambiguation page, we need to expand the criticism section of this page. Doing so would also be responsive to the now-removed tag about too few viewpoints. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 15:28, 3 October 2011 (UTC) |
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:::I agree that his contribution doesn't seem significant enough to have a section to himself. I would support removing the heading and including information on him in a more appropriate way. [[User:Afterwriting|Afterwriting]] ([[User talk:Afterwriting|talk]]) 15:54, 3 October 2011 (UTC) |
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== The New Laughter Movement == |
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The premise of this article is that there is reason to concatenate a catch-phrase, coined by an author without establishing evidence for its concrete existence, as a real movement with aims that are somehow new for atheists. |
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Nothing the supposed handful of conspirators in this shadowy new movement have or are saying is new in atheism. Scientific disputes about religious articles of faith have existed as long as science itself. |
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There isn’t a shred of evidence to support the contention that there is a movement, which implies an organised and programmatic approach to something. For example, how do I sign up to become a member of this new movement? What are some of the benefits of being a member? Is there a New Atheist wine club, or cheap theatre tickets for members and spouses? Membership meetings? New Atheist family outings? Member book burnings? How do I get in touch with other members? Do we get special silly hats, handshakes or membership rings? How can I form a new chapter in my local neighbourhood? How do I get elected leader of my local chapter and then the entire movement? Can I move that the movement adopts a policy of world domination? |
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The reality is that New Atheism is a catch-all or catchphrase that has been given credibility as something tangibly real only by the treatment it has received here, not by the credible, verifiable citations that would prove its existence as anything other than an obscure label. The references cited for its existence at all are rhetorical commentary, not disciplined scientific or other studies designed to describe salient features, numbers, demographics, characteristics, etc. |
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The best that can be said for the term New Atheism is that it is a marketing tool for selling the books of the listed authors. The worst that can be said of it is that it represents a paranoid conspiracy theory about an organised attempt by a shadowy group (a very small group) to propagate atheist points of view. |
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I couldn’t find a template to put at the top of the article page that says: ‘This page has been identified as ridiculous and should not be altered until laughter has stopped’, but I am inclined to find the appropriate one for NPOV violation by undue weight given to two sources, and the complete disconnect between the main body of the article from describing a movement called New Atheism as opposed to just summarising recent atheist writings and simply asserting they are New Atheist rather than just more of the same old atheism. |
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How about we just rewrite the opening to reflect the fact that New Atheism is a label used by a small number of commentators to describe what has been categorised more prominently as militant atheism (see the examples in the militant atheism article). |
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Regards, <span style="color: #366; font-family: serif; text-shadow: 1px 1px 1px #000;">[[user:Peterstrempel|<font color="#366" >Peter S Strempel</font>]] | [[user_talk:Peterstrempel|<font color="#366">Talk</font>]]</span> 22:26, 20 July 2011 (UTC) |
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:No. It's the other way around. "New Atheism" is a term that is accepted by the persons to whom it is applied, and it has gained currency in secondary sources. [[Militant atheism]] is an article that appears to have become an editorial battleground. (Does it still include state atheism?) --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 22:43, 20 July 2011 (UTC) |
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::Maybe I'm just tired. but I don't see that in the citations. I'd be indebted if you could point me to who exactly has described himself as a New Atheist and/or member of the New Atheist movement? And yes, militant atheism is a battleground and does feature Marxist-Leninist state atheism as the principal example of militant atheism. Regards, <span style="color: #366; font-family: serif; text-shadow: 1px 1px 1px #000;">[[user:Peterstrempel|<font color="#366" >Peter S Strempel</font>]] | [[user_talk:Peterstrempel|<font color="#366">Talk</font>]]</span> 22:52, 20 July 2011 (UTC) |
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:::One quick example: number 2 on the reference list. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 22:55, 20 July 2011 (UTC) |
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::::I stared and stared at it. All Stenger really does is assert that the authors of a handful of books, including his own, 'have been recognized as the leaders of a movement called New Atheism'. But not who's been doing the recognising. He goes on to say that 'I review and expand upon the principles of New Atheism and answer many of its critics', but again without an explicit statement that he is a New Atheist, or part of a New Atheism movement. In fact, he appears to have cast himself as a reviewer. I'll grant you that you could justifiably infer those meanings from his words, but we're forbidden at Wikipedia from drawing these kinds of conclusions ourselves, rather than quoting someone else who explicitly said so in a credible secondary or tertiary source. That raises the question, too, whether Stenger isn't the author of a primary source in the context of this article, and whether that doesn't prevent us from citing him at all. |
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::::I will admit that my primary interest in the new atheism article is that it is cited as the only reference to justify an eponymous section in the militant atheism article whose existence I have just questioned for lack of credible sources. I would continue to question the justification for including a new atheist category of militant atheism if the only evidence for it were the same as that cited here. I guess that means I have no option but to question the validity of sources I don't regard as credible underpinnings for the assertion that there is such a thing as a New Atheist movement just because a small number of writers about atheism have asserted, without any descriptive proof, that it exists. |
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::::Some time ago I wrote a paper dealing with 'Neoliberalism' in which I encountered a similar taxonomic problem. There were writers who linked what they described as contemporary conservatism to classical liberalism (in the English sense, not the American usage as left politics) and free market economics. It appeared very much that the term Neoliberalism in the available literature was actually applied to a diverse, broad range of political and economic thought that defied easy classification, but that it was used predominantly as a pejorative to corral all non-left political writers and practitioners into an oppositional space by left political practitioners and writers. The practical upshot for this discussion is that generalisations are a fine thing if you like them, but they shouldn't be made or given undue prominence by us Wikipedians. We exist to report discussion of them in credible sources. |
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::::Ergo, my focus is really on Wikipedia guidelines on sources and pushing points of view. In that context I see the cited sources confusing the assertion by one or two people, writing as commentators, reviewers or polemicists, that there is such a thing, and the uncritical repetition of that assertion by a number of other sources that are small within the context of debate about atheism in general, as proof that the thing exists as a concrete and cohesive phenomenon. But the article describes that thing only by referring to conventional atheist positions popularised in polemics whose main characteristic is that they sell well. I think that reading too much else into a pop culture churn would require citations of examinations that aren't just mass media products. Hence I have stated that I think there's a disconnect between the assertion about the thing's existence, and the body of the article which describes another thing we already know as atheism, or militant atheism. |
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::::In the scheme of the entire exposition of atheism in Wikipedia, I see the term 'New Atheism' as almost parenthetical in the discussion of contemporary atheism, and, grudgingly, in the discussion of militant atheism (but that's another story). |
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::::As a footnote to this post, it was intended primarily as discussion with Tryptofish, and before anyone gets too excited about my ideas, please note that I have not yet made any firm suggestion for concrete changes, let alone any actual edits. I gather that testing the waters about potential controversy is Wikipedia policy favoured by trigger-happy admins looking to ban someone. Nothing I see in the article is particularly harmful or of great consequence to the overall Wikipedia representation of atheism. I am, of course, always grateful for comments about the error of my ways or the possible validity of a line of reasoning. Toodle pip for now [[Special:Contributions/114.73.104.189|114.73.104.189]] ([[User talk:114.73.104.189|talk]]) 00:23, 21 July 2011 (UTC) |
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::::Ooops. Lost my session on saving. I am of course <span style="color: #366; font-family: serif; text-shadow: 1px 1px 1px #000;">[[user:Peterstrempel|<font color="#366" >Peter S Strempel</font>]] | [[user_talk:Peterstrempel|<font color="#366">Talk</font>]]</span> 00:26, 21 July 2011 (UTC) |
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I haven't waded through all the argument above, but a discussion of New Atheism criticism should definitely include Marilynne Robinson's book "Absence of Mind." <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/173.28.210.3|173.28.210.3]] ([[User talk:173.28.210.3|talk]]) 21:21, 20 November 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Other "new" and "New" atheism(s) == |
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see [[User:JimWae/new_atheism]]--[[User:JimWae|JimWae]] ([[User talk:JimWae|talk]]) 07:37, 25 August 2011 (UTC) |
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:It's an impressive collection of references, but doesn't it just prove that 'new' in this context is a repetitive attempt to find something new in an old topic? Perhaps I missed something here. Regards, <span style="color: #366; font-family: serif; text-shadow: 1px 1px 1px #000;">[[user:Peterstrempel|<font color="#366" >Peter S Strempel</font>]] | [[user_talk:Peterstrempel|<font color="#366">Talk</font>]]</span> 07:46, 25 August 2011 (UTC) |
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== Additional sources == |
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I feel [http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2008/dec/29/religion-new-atheism-defined this article] might be useful, but I'm not really sure how to include it. Maybe the fact that the author says that „new atheism” is new not in an intelectual sense (something atheists have also said, given that atheism has been around for a long time) but new "as a political and social movement" - [[User:ArnoldPlaton|ArnoldPlaton]] ([[User talk:ArnoldPlaton|talk]]) 12:15, 19 September 2011 (UTC) |
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* Also this article from [http://www.iep.utm.edu/n-atheis/#H8 the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy] seems like quite a good source. - [[User:ArnoldPlaton|ArnoldPlaton]] ([[User talk:ArnoldPlaton|talk]]) 16:05, 1 October 2011 (UTC) |
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*Note, building on suggestions at [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Atheism#New_Atheism_and_other_satellite_articles Talk:Atheism] I am offering these sources for discussion: |
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=== Sources re New Atheism === |
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Regarding the article, I find that there is no reference to the source of New Atheism in its concern over the rise of fundamentalist religious beliefs claiming literal historic and scientific truth of the scriptures, particularly of Christianity, some forms of Judaism and fundamentalist Islam. New Atheism attacks these forms of religious belief and makes a case that these ideologies encapsulate the essential nature of monotheistic religions. Surely something along these lines needs to be inserted in the article? [[User:John D. Croft|John D. Croft]] ([[User talk:John D. Croft|talk]]) 11:32, 5 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:Yes, pretty much all the major New Atheist writers have said such things. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 00:28, 6 September 2012 (UTC) |
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==== [http://reason.sdsu.edu/contemporary.html Contemporary Unbelief] ==== |
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{{Quote box|quote = Neo-Atheism, a term coined by journalist Gary Wolf in 2006, burst on the scene in the middle of the first decade of the new century as a new aggressive form of atheist thought, characterized most notably by the willingness of their proponents to attack religion as a harmful delusion and their anger that conservative advocates of what they saw as anti-scientific opinions were gaining power. Adding to their motivation were public surveys showing the persistence of anti-evolutionary perspective among conservative Christians, opinions shared by many conservative Muslims. |
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... |
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Neo-Atheism has been built upon the successful books of its major exponents, beginning with British biologist Richard Dawkins. In the United States, author Christopher Hitchens, has been joined by Sam Harris (with a Ph.D. in neuroscience), philosopher Daniel Dennett, and physicist Victor J. Stenger in leading the charge for a more public role for atheists. They have become frequent guests on television talk shows and made themselves available to the press. While energizing the core of atheist unbelievers, it is yet to be seen whether their efforts will substantively enlarge the support for non-theism in the larger population. |
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... |
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Humanist and atheist critics of Neo-Atheism have argued that the content of Neo-Atheism is not new, only restated in a new aggressive manner. They are also seen as destroying coalitions which atheists need to accomplish many of their goals, since, especially in the United States, they remain a minority in an overwhelming religious environment. The internal debates within the atheist community have already led to battles for control of various atheist organizations, most notably the Council for Secular Humanism and its associated Centers for Inquiry scattered across North America.}} |
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;Note: This source also lists a wealth of sociological and other scholarly work. http://reason.sdsu.edu/table_of_contents.html offers reams of general reading, but tends to prefer "unbelief" as an umbrella term. <i style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">[[User: Unomi|<b style="color:#724">u</b>]][[Special:Contributions/Unomi|<b style="color:#623">n</b><b style="color:#523">☯</b>]][[User talk:Unomi |<b style="color:#423">m</b><b style="color:#323">i</b>]]</i> 05:15, 14 December 2011 (UTC) |
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==== Atheism and Secularity: Issues, concepts, and definitions 2010 ==== |
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{{Quote box | align= center| quote = |
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THE “NEW ATHEISM” AND THE FUTURE OF ATHEISM |
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Atheism has been very much in the public eye in recent years, partly |
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due to the anti-religion backlash in response to the faith-based violence |
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and terrorism that has swept the world (not least in the September 11, |
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2001, attacks by fanatical Muslims) and partly due to the series of sur- |
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prisingly blunt and commercially successful books published since |
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2004. Actually, the current “push” of atheism can perhaps be dated to |
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two earlier books: George Smith's 1989 Atheism: The Case against Godg |
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and Dan Barker's 1992 Losing Faith in Faith: Prom Preacher to Atheist.” |
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But atheism entered an unprecedented period of confidence and |
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enthusiasm with the publication of Sam Harris’ best-selling 2004 offer- |
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ing, The End of Faith." It was quickly followed by Daniel Dennett's |
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Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon and Richard Daw- |
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kins' The God Delusion, and Harris’ follow-up Letter to a Christian |
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Nation, all published in 2006, not to mention Christopher I-Iitchens’ |
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2007 contribution, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything.” |
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More quietly, a small industry of atheist publishing has produced a |
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wave of activity, including two of my own books, Natural Atheism in |
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2004 and Atheism Advanced in zoos.” |
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It is especially noteworthy that the ”big four" of Harris, Dennett, |
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Dawkins, and Hitchens have not only enjoyed significant market and |
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media success but that they obtained major publishers for their work; |
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one can imagine a time not so long ago when a prominent popular |
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press would not have touched such titles. Collectively, these writers |
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are regarded as the founders of the so—called "new atheism," which is, |
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if nothing else, profitable and vociferous. However, precisely how new |
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is it, what does it add to the discussion of atheisml theisml religion, |
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and where does atheism go from here? |
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There is no doubt that the new atheism is unabashed, even aggres- |
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sive, and more than a little in-your-face. There is some debate within |
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the atheist community as to whether this is a good thing. Some go so |
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far as to disown the very moniker "atheist" in favor of other identities |
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like “humanist,” “freethinker,” “secularist,” "agnostic," or such origi- |
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nal names as "bright" or ”universist.” Others, on the contrary, con- |
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sider these concessions a kind of appeasement, a way of “passing” in a |
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society that is controlled by theists and in which "our kind" are as |
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unwelcome as blacks or gays used to be (and sometimes still are). |
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The political/ identity issues inherent in the new atheism are one |
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thing. A greater concern, from my perspective, is the content. For the |
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most part, there is nothing particularly new offered at all; what is new |
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is mostly that their atheism is, as we might say, "loud and proud." But |
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much of the new atheism is aimed in two well-worn and not entirely |
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wise directions. The first is the never-ending effort to "disprove |
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god(s)" or worse, "disprove God." Many of these works, and their less |
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famous counterparts, tirelessly rehearse arguments against god(s), a |
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project to which no new ideas have been added in decades, if not gen- |
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erations or millennia. Quite frankly, everyone (including an honest the- |
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ist) recognizes that arguments in favor of god(s) fail, and if they did |
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succeed, they would not establish the existence of any particular god(s) |
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over all the others; that is to say, the tired old cosmological or ontologi- |
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cal or teleological arguments would defend Zeus or Odin or Vishnu as |
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effectively as Yahweh or Allah. |
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| salign = right | source = {{mdash}} {{cite book|last=Zuckerman|first=edited by Phil|title=Atheism and secularity|year=2010|publisher=Praeger|location=Santa Barbara, Calif. [u.a.]|isbn=9780313351839 | url = http://books.google.com/books?id=Z1hbaAHsAlUC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA13#v=onepage }}}} |
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==== The New New Atheism - WSJ - [[Peter Berkowitz]] ==== |
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{{Quote box | align= center| quote = |
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... |
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But one stunning new development under the sun is that promulgating atheism has become a |
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lucrative business. According to a recent article in The Wall Street Journal, in less than 12 months atheism's newest champions have sold close to a million books. Some 500,000 hardcover copies are in print of Richard Dawkins's "The God Delusion" (2006); 296,000 copies of Christopher Hitchens's "God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything" (2007); 185,000 copies of Sam Harris's "Letter to a Christian Nation" (2006); 64,100 copies of Daniel C. Dennett's "Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon"; and 60,000 copies of Victor J. Stenger's "God: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows that God Does not Exist" (2007). |
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Profitability is not the only feature distinguishing today's |
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fashionable disbelief from the varieties of atheism that have |
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arisen over the millennia. Unlike the classical atheism of |
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Epicurus and Lucretius, which rejected belief in the gods in |
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the name of pleasure and tranquility, the new new atheism |
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rejects God in the name of natural science, individual |
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freedom and human equality. Unlike the Enlightenment |
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atheism of the 18th century, which arose in a still |
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predominantly religious society and which frequently went |
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to some effort to disguise or mute its disbelief, the new new |
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atheism proclaims its hatred of God and organized religion |
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loudly and proudly from the rooftops. And unlike the anti- |
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modern atheism of Nietzsche and Heidegger, which regarded the death of God as a catastrophe |
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for the human spirit, the new new atheism sees the loss of religious faith in the modern world as an unqualified good, lamenting only the perverse and widespread resistance to shedding once |
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and for all the hopelessly backward belief in a divine presence in history. |
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| salign = right | source = {{mdash}} {{cite article|last=Berkowitz|first=Peter | author = [[Peter Berkowitz]] |title=The New New Atheism|year=2007|publisher=[[Wall Street Journal]]| url = http://www.finishingwell.com/pdf/newsletters/TheNewNewAtheism.WSJ.pdf }}}} |
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== Criticism Section == |
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Criticism sections are undesirable in articles, the criticisms have relevant sections, I have integrated them into these. [[User:IRWolfie-|IRWolfie-]] ([[User talk:IRWolfie-|talk]]) 13:24, 24 December 2011 (UTC) |
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== How can there not be a criticism section? == |
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*''[[The Case for God]]'' by [[Karen Armstrong]] |
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*''The New Atheists: The Twilight of Reason and the War on Religion'' by [[Tina Beattie]] |
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*''The Devil's Delusion: Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions'' by [[David Berlinski]] |
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*''The Myth of Religious Violence'' by William Cavanaugh |
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*''[[Darwin's Angel]]: An Angelic Riposte to The God Delusion'' by [[John Cornwell]] |
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*''God Is Great, God Is Good: Why Believing in God Is Reasonable and Responsible'' by [[William Lane Craig]] and Chad Meister |
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*''God is No Delusion: A Refutation of Richard Dawkins'' by Thomas Crean |
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*''What's So Great about Christianity'' by [[Dinesh D'Souza]] |
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*''Reason, Faith, and Revolution: Reflections on the God Debate'' by [[Terry Eagleton]] |
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*''Faith and Its Critics: A Conversation'' by [[David Fergusson]] |
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*''Answering the New Atheism: Dismantling Dawkins' Case Against God'' by [[Scott Hahn]] and [[Benjamin Wiker]] |
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*''Atheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies'' by [[David Bentley Hart]] |
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*''God and the New Atheism: A Critical Response to Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens'' by [[John F. Haught]] |
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*''[[The Reason for God]]: Belief in an Age of Skepticism'' by [[Timothy Keller]] |
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*''God's Undertaker: Has Science Buried God?'' by [[John C. Lennox]] |
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*''[[The Dawkins Delusion?]]: Atheist Fundamentalism and the Denial of the Divine'' by [[Alister McGrath]] |
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*''Surprised by Meaning: Science, Faith, and How We Make Sense of Things'' by Alister McGrath |
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*''Against Atheism: Why Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris Are Fundamentally Wrong'' by [[Ian S. Markham]] |
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*''Atheism Remix: A Christian Confronts the New Atheists'' by [[R. Albert Mohler]] |
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*''A Friendly Letter to Skeptics and Atheists: Musings on Why God Is Good and Faith Isn't Evil'' by [[David G. Myers]] |
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*''No One Sees God: The Dark Night of Atheists and Believers'' by [[Michael Novak]] |
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*''The Dawkins Letters: Challenging Atheist Myths'' by David Robertson |
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*''Simply Christian: Why Christianity Makes Sense'' by [[N. T. Wright]] |
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*''The End of Reason: A Response to the New Atheists'' by [[Ravi Zacharias]] |
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[[User:Portillo|Portillo]] ([[User talk:Portillo|talk]]) 09:46, 11 January 2012 (UTC) |
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:An article is not the place to list every comment on an issue. If a secondary source has provided an analysis of some issues surrounding the topic, they may be worth recording in the article, but the fact that many people disagree with atheists is not news, nor encyclopedic information. In general, articles should not have a criticism section as it is not encyclopedic, and inevitably becomes a place where editors insert or remove items according to their personal outlook. There are four blue-link articles mentioned in the list above: none have a criticism section. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 10:14, 11 January 2012 (UTC) |
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::I would suggest a section on "controversy" instead of "criticism" per se, and Johnuiq this entry isn't simply about "atheism" but about New Atheism, which is controversial even within atheist/nonbeliever circles, at least here in the United States. As to using primary vs. secondary sources how many quality secondary sources are in use at all in this entry I wonder? Probably mostly news type sources, within which I'm positive you can find reference to controversies and differences between New Atheists and the religious and between New Atheists and humanists, and various other nonbelievers. I have not looked at this book, but you might also try [http://books.google.com/books?id=Ri65bB04dlwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Religion+and+the+New+Atheism:+A+Critical+Appraisal&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fTAPT6GwCKTC0AH4ocSvAw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Religion%20and%20the%20New%20Atheism%3A%20A%20Critical%20Appraisal&f=false Religion and the New Atheism: A Critical Appraisal] for actual scholarship about New Atheism. Hope that helps.[[User:Griswaldo|Griswaldo]] ([[User talk:Griswaldo|talk]]) 19:12, 12 January 2012 (UTC) |
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:I notice only four of the books are linked, is this because only four of the books are notable? [[User:IRWolfie-|IRWolfie-]] ([[User talk:IRWolfie-|talk]]) 18:58, 24 January 2012 (UTC) |
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Maybe, but the majority of the authors are linked. [[User:Portillo|Portillo]] ([[User talk:Portillo|talk]]) 08:58, 8 February 2012 (UTC) |
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== "Social Impact of New Ideas" section == |
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I have reverted this recently added section twice because it misrepresents the source and amounts to original research. I won't remove it again because of the [[WP:3RR|3 revert rule]], but I still think the section is problematic, and was wondering if anyone else agreed. |
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The section currently reads: "There is no doubt that atheism is spreading in western democracies. The latest survey for Britain showed that 51% of the population are now atheist" with this source.[http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/24/religion-respecting-the-minority?CMP=EMCGT_241210&] First of all, even if the second part (Brits now 51% atheist) were true, it is a huge, unsourced leap to conclude there is "no doubt" that atheism is spreading in western democracies from that alone. The article is only about Britain. Secondly, the source doesn't even say that 51% of British people are atheists now, it says that in a recent poll, 51% of of British people have no religion. And the overarching problem with the whole thing is that the source doesn't mention New Atheism as defined here, so tying any of this to New Atheism is original research. |
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The second paragraph of the section is also sourced to an article that doesn't mention atheism, let alone New Atheism.[http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/01/120120010447.htm] The first sentence of this paragraph reads "The trend is likely to increase in the future as there appears to be a tipping point at which the population prefers either religion or atheism," which is pure conjecture, as the article doesn't make any predictions about future trends or a tipping point. The rest of the paragraph is a quote directly lifted from the article that does nothing to bolster the claim made in the previous sentence. |
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Does anyone else think the section should be removed or seriously reworked? [[User:Dawn Bard|Dawn Bard]] ([[User talk:Dawn Bard|talk]]) 03:48, 31 January 2012 (UTC) |
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:It looks like [[WP:OR|original research]] to me. We should stick to what sources actually say. [[User:Bobrayner|bobrayner]] ([[User talk:Bobrayner|talk]]) 04:05, 31 January 2012 (UTC) |
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== I like the page but I wonder if the content is too narrowly defined == |
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Since "new atheism" is supposed to be active against religion, should there not be more on social impact? Without any social impact it does not appear active in society at all. So far it is just an intellectual discussion. The plain atheism page has more social discussion than this one. Also the page only includes the people who write the books. What about the acts and entertainers who stick their necks out to transmit these ideas to the public. They risk more than just being unpopular and I think they deserve some recognition for making a stand. I am preparing a page about pop group Foxy Freedom when I can find all the information. Have you heard of Penn and Teller the magicians? What about Derren Brown the magician and hypnotist? There is a filmed interview with Dawkins. Brown also did a tv show exposing psychics and another one when he visited the US to expose the tricks that faith healers use to fool people. He showed how to fool a crowd into thinking that a blind person had been cured. I know people who became atheists after seeing that on TV. So I feel that people who are risking so much should be recognised. Nevertheless, keep up the good work.[[User:Spread knowledge not ignorance|Spread knowledge not ignorance]] ([[User talk:Spread knowledge not ignorance|talk]]) 23:24, 2 February 2012 (UTC) |
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::Suggestions should be based on reliable secondary sources to help establish due weight (see [[WP:DUE]] for more info). [[User:IRWolfie-|IRWolfie-]] ([[User talk:IRWolfie-|talk]]) 13:01, 3 February 2012 (UTC) |
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:I agree that the content of this article is too narrowly defined, but for an additional reason, because it seems to me that the New Atheism movement encompasses more than just certain well-known books. As an example, in my opinion the internet has also played a big role in the spread of the movement. In fact there are hundreds of atheist websites, forums, blogs, and other resources on the web, many of which preceded any of the best-selling books, and must surely have reached just as many people, if not far more. As proof, here are links to several long lists of atheist websites and other online resources: |
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::[http://www.freethoughtaction.org/ftalinks.html http://www.freethoughtaction.org/ftalinks.html] |
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::[http://www.atheistsites.net/ http://www.atheistsites.net/] |
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::[http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Communities.html http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Communities.html] |
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[[Special:Contributions/74.248.194.59|74.248.194.59]] ([[User talk:74.248.194.59|talk]]) 14:09, 22 August 2014 (UTC) |
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== Merge == |
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Hello, I merged the content from the [[militant atheism]] article here, per the [[Talk:Militant_atheism/Archive_8#Should_the_article_be_split_or_made_into_a_disambiguation_page.3F|administrative closure of RfC]]. Feel free to edit it as necessary. Thanks, [[User:Anupam|Anupam]]<sup>[[User talk:Anupam|Talk]]</sup> 17:21, 11 February 2012 (UTC) |
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:There is no mention of forced merging or in fact, any merger in the closure. [[User:IRWolfie-|IRWolfie-]] ([[User talk:IRWolfie-|talk]]) 17:49, 11 February 2012 (UTC) |
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::{{ec}}The result of the RfC was not merge. Please read it again. The topic of the discussion was whether to turn the article into a disambig, and the result was "yes". Some content may be merged here, but not before the issues which led to its deletion are solved first. — [[User:Mann_jess|<b>Jess</b>]]<span style="margin:0 7px;font-variant:small-caps;font-size:0.9em">· [[Special:Contributions/Mann_jess|Δ]][[User_talk:Mann_jess|♥]]</span> 17:51, 11 February 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose merge''' I cannot fathom how anupam could misread "''this article should not exist as it's conflating multiple subjects into one synthesized space''" as meaning "''Go ahead and merge it all again!''". It's problematic that such behaviour has continued for so long; whether that's a [[WP:COMPETENCE|competence problem]] or [[WP:DISRUPT|intentionally problematic]] editing, I leave for others to decide. [[User:Bobrayner|bobrayner]] ([[User talk:Bobrayner|talk]]) 23:20, 11 February 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' merge. Anupam asked me at my talk to comment here, and I would be commenting anyway. Inclusion of the deleted material from the Militant page here was a very bad idea. It gives [[WP:UNDUE]] weight to critics of New Atheism, and perpetuates a term that the critics try to promulgate (cf: the Santorum neologism controversy, about promulgating another term). --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 00:24, 12 February 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. Anupam's POV and SYNTH attack on New Atheism has been deflected and deleted over at [[militant atheism]], but Anupam continues to work toward a glimmer of that attack. This should not be permitted on Wikipedia, though the same POV and SYNTH composition was warmly greeted and highly rewarded on Conservapedia. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 18:41, 12 February 2012 (UTC) |
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== "Impact" section == |
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The "Impact" section says, "New atheists and the irreligious can experience prejudice against them. A University of British Columbia study found that believers distrust atheists as much as rapists. The study also showed that atheists have lower employment prospects." Surely this is misplaced? The study was about atheists, not the New Atheists. Granted, the New Atheists are atheists, but the source does not specifically address them. Aren't we supposed to include only those sources that explicitly connect themselves with the topic of the article? --[[User:Phatius McBluff|Phatius McBluff]] ([[User talk:Phatius McBluff|talk]]) 15:25, 28 March 2012 (UTC) |
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:I agree with you entirely. In fact, the material isn't even really about the "impact" of New Atheism. I removed it. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 20:51, 28 March 2012 (UTC) |
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Is that not really up to the location <= USA I presume? I never been asked in a job interview what my religion nor have I even been inclined to start that topic. <small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/83.117.55.184|83.117.55.184]] ([[User talk:83.117.55.184|talk]]) 11:58, 8 September 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Nonmilitant atheism == |
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Is there another phrase to describe nonmilitant atheism? I.e., the kind that adheres to a "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" theory, rather than telling theists they're delusional, etc.? [[User:Leucosticte|Leucosticte]] ([[User talk:Leucosticte|talk]]) 03:41, 25 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:Note that militant is a pejorative description. [[User:IRWolfie-|IRWolfie-]] ([[User talk:IRWolfie-|talk]]) 09:19, 17 July 2012 (UTC) |
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::Depends on the militant; some militants embrace the term. <small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/74.95.43.249|74.95.43.249]] ([[User talk:74.95.43.249|talk]]) 21:19, 12 March 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Additions to Criticism Section == |
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There has been a major response to New Atheism by its critics, with the number of books against the movement far outweighing the number of books supporting the movement. Other editors have listed many of these books. Due to the significant attention which has been given to the movement at the popular level, it is important to at least acknowledge some of the major criticisms of the movement. And simply citing one article and one book when there are hundreds of others that have been published, many written by more prominent thinkers than those listed before ([[James P. Carse]] and [[Tom Flynn (author)|Tom Flynn]]), is inadequate, misleading, and I believe compromises the article's neutrality. There could have been any number of other criticisms listed and discussed, but I only added a few that seemed most noteworthy. I'm not sure which references are being classified as unreliable, but I strongly believe that the added criticisms should not be taken out, as they given a good overview of some of the major criticisms against the movement. Perhaps some of the references should be removed and other supporting references added, but there is no reason to take out the added content in its entirety. [[User:Eb7473|Eb7473]] ([[User talk:Eb7473|talk]]) 17:21, 17 July 2012 (UTC) |
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Also, I do not intend to edit war, but I initially reverted edit because I thought it was inappropriate to take out the previous additions to criticism section wholesale without discussing on the talk page, which is why I originally added content back into article. [[User:Eb7473|Eb7473]] ([[User talk:Eb7473|talk]]) 17:34, 17 July 2012 (UTC) |
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:Thank you for discussing this here. I wasn't involved in that series of edits, but I've looked at them, and here is what I think. A lot of the sources you cited were things like YouTube and other online sources that are kind of weak with respect to [[WP:RS]]. It's important not to give [[WP:UNDUE]] emphasis to a short quote that is not representative of the entirety of what someone said. I think those were some of the concerns of the other editors. Let me suggest that you propose the additional criticism works that you want to add, here in this talk, and we can discuss it here. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 21:28, 17 July 2012 (UTC) |
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:A key point here is that this article is about "new atheism"—it is not [[List of arguments that oppose new atheism]]. If such criticisms are notable, make an article about them, but they should not be coatracked into other articles unless [[WP:DUE]] as established by independent [[WP:SECONDARY|secondary sources]]. An article on a religious topic is going to have lots of supporters and lots of opposers, and the article needs to focus on the ''topic'' while presenting only a ''due'' outline of the opposition (except for [[WP:FRINGE|fringe]] stuff like cults). [[Alister McGrath]] has an article where his views and books should be explained—this is not the place to repeat that. [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 00:08, 18 July 2012 (UTC) |
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::Yes, but I hope that we don't end up with a new page on [[Criticism of New Atheism]]. We do, however, already have [[Criticism of atheism]]. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 00:12, 18 July 2012 (UTC) |
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== "21st-century atheist writers" == |
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"21st-century" of what? Isn't it a little more than mildly ironic that this article, which is based on challenging and negating false religious beliefs, starts with a reference to a time frame which was initiated by a Catholic pope based on one of their religious tenets? If I don't see any viable opposition in next next while, I will change this term to "modern". |
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Baden [[Special:Contributions/41.74.221.76|41.74.221.76]] ([[User talk:41.74.221.76|talk]]) 09:57, 2 October 2012 (UTC) |
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:The fact that humanity's most widely used calendar happened to have religious roots doesn't invalidate it, nor would invoking that calendar imply any irony with respect to the epoch from which to begin counting. That said, I have no problem with changing "21st-century" to "modern" on the basis that the former just sounds clunky. ~[[User:Amatulic|Amatulić]] <small>([[User talk:Amatulic#top|talk]])</small> 16:35, 2 October 2012 (UTC) |
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== Religion and The New Atheism == |
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Beside the [http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9809.2011.01079.x/pdf Journal of Religious History], here is a [http://secularoutpost.infidels.org/2009/07/critics-of-new-atheists.html secular source] that talks about the book. I do not think the other two sources mentioned already in the article are more notable than this one. However, if you have suggestion on how to word the inclusion of this book, please do not hesitate in changing my sentence.--[[Special:Contributions/24.94.18.234|24.94.18.234]] ([[User talk:24.94.18.234|talk]]) 16:53, 11 October 2012 (UTC) |
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:Sorry, but I have two objections to the inclusion of this in the article. Firstly I don't think your summary of the book is encyclopedic. That it "...aims to critically examine New Atheism in order that the scholarly community and educated general reader can become more informed", is simply not an acceptable description here, as it sounds more like an advertising [[blurb]] for the book (buy this and become more informed on the subject), and it provides no information about any conclusions or special points about the subject that the author may have had in his work. Secondly I am unsure whether Amarnath Amarasingam is notable enough for him to have a full paragraph on this book. There are numerous books out there on the subject, so to include such general sounding reference work in a full paragraph instead of just in the reference list seems very much [[WP:UNDUE|undue weight]]. --[[User:Saddhiyama|Saddhiyama]] ([[User talk:Saddhiyama|talk]]) 17:30, 11 October 2012 (UTC) |
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::I have to agree with you on your second comment that Amarasingam is not notable enough. As a matter of fact Amarnath Amarasingam is not the author of the book; he actually gathered and edited the essays written by famous people such as [[Mark Vernon]], [[Reza Aslan]], [[William Sims Bainbridge]], and [[Steve Fuller (sociologist)|Steve Fuller]] which I am sure you agree are very notable. I will work on the wording to make it encyclopedic (your first comment).--[[Special:Contributions/24.94.18.234|24.94.18.234]] ([[User talk:24.94.18.234|talk]]) 17:40, 11 October 2012 (UTC) |
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My proposal is as follows: |
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"The 2010 book ''Religion and the New Atheism: A Critical Approach'', finds little scholarly and balanced criticism on New Atheism and therefore believes the topic needs to be studied critically. According to the book while many New Atheists |
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accept [religious] fundamentalists’ self-understanding and assume that it can adequately describe all religion, many Christian responses to the New Atheism perpetuate this caricature, and address an equally unrepresentative atheistic straw man." |
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--[[Special:Contributions/24.94.18.234|24.94.18.234]] ([[User talk:24.94.18.234|talk]]) 17:57, 11 October 2012 (UTC) |
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:The book should not be presented as believing anything, people believe and makes claims. If the authors of the essays makes any notable points, then mention the authors and their points. If this is an anthology, I really don't see why it should be presented with its own paragraph in the article text, instead of just giving it a listing in the reference list, and cite it when any of the points of the notable scholars are mentioned in the article in reference to relevant topic matter which is New Atheism. --[[User:Saddhiyama|Saddhiyama]] ([[User talk:Saddhiyama|talk]]) 18:24, 11 October 2012 (UTC) |
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If you could be so nice to show what you actually mean in words, I will very much appreciate it. For example, how would you write the sentence?--[[Special:Contributions/24.94.18.234|24.94.18.234]] ([[User talk:24.94.18.234|talk]]) 14:10, 13 October 2012 (UTC) |
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== Trivial correction == |
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Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins and Dennett are 'The Four Horsemen of the Counter Apocalypse' as opposed to 'The Four Horsemen of New Atheism'. Hitchens mentions that he coined it in a Reddit interview he did in 2009, the video is on YouTube with the appropriate section at 10mins 21secs. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/109.145.58.237|109.145.58.237]] ([[User talk:109.145.58.237|talk]]) 17:49, 28 December 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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: I would say they're simply "The Four Horsemen", since [http://old.richarddawkins.net/videos/2025-the-four-horsemen-available-now-on-dvd the DVD featuring the quartet] is called simply that. ~ [[User:Robin Lionheart|Röbin Liönheart]] ([[User talk:Robin Lionheart|talk]]) 06:08, 7 January 2013 (UTC) |
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:: Those of us who care to check what was actually said in the reference given in the article, will find that Hitchens is actually referred to as one of the "four horsemen of atheism" (at 7.23). Thus, the text should either be changed to reflect this fact, or else some other reference provided that verifies what is being said in the article. ''13:15, 2 June 2015 (UTC)'' <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Mick3|Mick3]] ([[User talk:Mick3|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Mick3|contribs]]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== A criticism is not an insult. So added a quote from someone as an insult is not a good way to write a "criticism" section. == |
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I removed a quote from the page that had a quote from someone talking about how new-atheism is not "intellectually muscular" and this is not informative criticism or constructive. It is simply an insult by someone who disagrees with that view. If you have an actual quote by that author that actually criticizes new-atheism with an argument---post that. But I don't think anyone should allow just about any random author who hates "new atheism" to add his own personal insult into the criticism-section. [[User talk:Arsenic99|— <sup>talk</sup> §]] [[User:Arsenic99|<span style="background:#333333; border: 1px solid #000000;">_<b style="color:#FF0000">Ars</b><b style="color:#FFFFFF;">eni</b><b style="color:#0077FF;">c99</b>_</span>]] 03:07, 7 January 2013 (UTC) |
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: So, for example, a criticism of William Lane "Two-Citations" Craig's low h-index might be informative, but the same critic calling him an "academic midget" would not be. ~ [[User:Robin Lionheart|Röbin Liönheart]] ([[User talk:Robin Lionheart|talk]]) 05:03, 7 January 2013 (UTC) |
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:First, please let me apologize, in that I reverted the edit before I saw the discussion here. Although I tend to agree with your point that it largely ''is'' just an insult, I also think an argument is being made that the New Atheism "lacks intellectual weight". Perhaps that argument is not made persuasively, but that's a subjective editorial call. If the author qualifies as a scholarly source (something we can discuss; I'm not taking that for granted), and given that they clearly ''are'' critical of NA, I think there's a case for leaving it in, without opening the door to "any random author". --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 00:31, 8 January 2013 (UTC) |
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== New Atheism and Islamophobia == |
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Those familiar with this movement's figureheads should be aware of the recent spat in the news regarding some statements of Dawkins and Harris regarding Islam and Muslims - the Independent provides a concise summary [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/atheists-richard-dawkins-christopher-hitchens-and-sam-harris-face-islamophobia-backlash-8570580.html here]. There are obviously some other articles and commentaries which could be found as well. So what I want to ask from other concerned editors is whether or not the issue is notable enough to warrant mention in this article. I haven't though about where such a paragraph would go, though I don't think that's important until we establish if it does belong here in the first place. I feel it does simply because of media attention to the somewhat public spat, but I'm interested in seeing what others think. [[User:MezzoMezzo|MezzoMezzo]] ([[User talk:MezzoMezzo|talk]]) 06:46, 14 April 2013 (UTC) |
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:We should definitely mention this issue. Numerous commentators have made similar criticisms of the New Atheists: |
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:[http://www.salon.com/2013/03/30/dawkins_harris_hitchens_new_atheists_flirt_with_islamophobia/] |
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:[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-wright/why-the-new-atheists-are_b_230448.html] |
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:[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=codtM-WnS3w] |
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:[http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/04/20134210413618256.html] |
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:[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/blind-faith-sam-harris-at_b_8686.html?] |
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:As I see it, the Islamophobia debate forms part of a broader conflict between two diverging branches of contemporary Western liberalism. In this conflict, "Enlightenment fundamentalists" (such as the New Atheists) face off against "postmodernists" and "multiculturalists": |
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:[http://rac.sagepub.com/content/48/2/1.full.pdf] |
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:[http://www.signandsight.com/features/1167.html] |
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:My remarks about the "broader conflict" are, of course, original research. As such, they don't belong in the article. However, I think they do add weight to the idea that the "recent spat" to which MezzoMezzo refers is culturally and intellectually notable. --[[User:Phatius McBluff|Phatius McBluff]] ([[User talk:Phatius McBluff|talk]]) 16:12, 14 April 2013 (UTC) |
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::Youtube videos aren't reliable. Blogs and opinion pieces hardly establish something as being encyclopedic. Wikipedia isn't a newspaper, show secondary sources showing that this has some sort of due weight. [[User:IRWolfie-|IRWolfie-]] ([[User talk:IRWolfie-|talk]]) 16:16, 14 April 2013 (UTC) |
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Okay, fair enough. If we're looking for secondary sources (i.e. sources that survey the primary sources), then there's the article MezzoMezzo linked to. I also found the following: |
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*"This article argues that the ‘new’ in the new atheists’ writings is not their aggressiveness, nor their extraordinary popularity, nor even their scientific approach to religion, rather it is their attack not only on militant Islamism but also on Islam itself under the cloak of its general critique of religion" (William W. Emilsen, "[http://ext.sagepub.com/content/123/11/521.abstract The New Atheism and Islam]", ''The Expository Times'' 123.11 (2012), p. 521). |
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*"Especially after September 11, 2001, a group of writers invoked Samuel Huntington's 'clash of civilizations' theory to explain the current political contestation. Europe's religious conservatives but also a group of 'new atheists' such as Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens participated in the process of securitizing Muslim demands of recognition of identity and fairness. Islamophobia has become a dominant trend in the study of Muslim societies" (Wade Jacoby & Hakan Yavuz, "[http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13602000802080486 Modernization, Identity and Integration: An Introduction to the Special Issue on Islam in Europe]", ''Journal of Muslim Minority Affairs'' 28.1 (2008), p. 1). |
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There is also [http://www.firstpost.com/politics/unholy-war-atheists-and-the-politics-of-muslim-baiting-684377.html this news article], which, like Mezzo's, surveys the Islamophobia accusations. --[[User:Phatius McBluff|Phatius McBluff]] ([[User talk:Phatius McBluff|talk]]) 16:54, 14 April 2013 (UTC) |
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:Senor Wolfie made a good point about the first round of sources, but what you provided above, Mr. McBluff, does seem to pass [[WP:RS]]. There is already a section for criticism in the article here. Would either of you be opposed for perhaps a paragraph within that section dedicated to New Atheism and Islam? It is interesting to note that the criticism of New Atheists from this aspect is regarding Islam though primarily from Western sources. I'm not exactly sure how it would be framed, in that case. [[User:MezzoMezzo|MezzoMezzo]] ([[User talk:MezzoMezzo|talk]]) 06:52, 16 April 2013 (UTC) |
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I think a brief paragraph would be appropriate. How about the following? |
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<blockquote>Some commentators have accused the New Atheist movement of [[Islamophobia]].<ref>Jerome Taylor. "[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/atheists-richard-dawkins-christopher-hitchens-and-sam-harris-face-islamophobia-backlash-8570580.html Atheists Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris face Islamophobia backlash]". ''The Independent''. Retrieved April 16, 2013.</ref><ref>FP Staff. "[http://www.firstpost.com/politics/unholy-war-atheists-and-the-politics-of-muslim-baiting-684377.html Unholy war: Atheists and the politics of Muslim-baiting]". First Post. Retrieved April 16, 2013.</ref><ref>{{cite journal | last1 = Jacoby | first1 = Wade | last2 = Yavuz | first2 = Hakan | title = [http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13602000802080486 Modernization, Identity and Integration: An Introduction to the Special Issue on Islam in Europe] | journal = Journal of Muslim Minority Affairs | volume = 28 | issue = 1 | pages = 1 | date = April 2008 | year = 2008}}</ref><ref>{{cite journal | last = Emilsen | first = William | title = [http://ext.sagepub.com/content/123/11/521.abstract The New Atheism and Islam] | journal = The Expository Times | volume = 123 | issue = 11 | pages = 521 | date = August 2012 | year = 2012}}</ref> Wade Jacoby and Hakan Yavuz assert that "a group of 'new atheists' such as Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens" have "invoked Samuel Huntington's 'clash of civilizations' theory to explain the current political contestation" and that this forms part of a trend toward "Islamophobia [...] in the study of Muslim societies".<ref>{{cite journal | last1 = Jacoby | first1 = Wade | last2 = Yavuz | first2 = Hakan | title = [http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13602000802080486 Modernization, Identity and Integration: An Introduction to the Special Issue on Islam in Europe] | journal = Journal of Muslim Minority Affairs | volume = 28 | issue = 1 | pages = 1 | date = April 2008 | year = 2008}}</ref> William W. Emilson argues that "the 'new' in the new atheists' writings is not their aggressiveness, nor their extraordinary popularity, nor even their scientific approach to religion, rather it is their attack not only on militant Islamism but also on Islam itself under the cloak of its general critique of religion".<ref>{{cite journal | last = Emilsen | first = William | title = [http://ext.sagepub.com/content/123/11/521.abstract The New Atheism and Islam] | journal = The Expository Times | volume = 123 | issue = 11 | pages = 521 | date = August 2012 | year = 2012}}</ref></blockquote> |
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{{Reflist}} |
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I tried to be as concise as possible. I don't think this paragraph would give undue weight to the topic. What do others think? --[[User:Phatius McBluff|Phatius McBluff]] ([[User talk:Phatius McBluff|talk]]) 23:49, 16 April 2013 (UTC) |
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::I've been quietly watching this discussion, and that paragraph looks fine to me. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 21:58, 17 April 2013 (UTC) |
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:::My suggested paragraph seems not to have aroused opposition, so I have added it to the article. --[[User:Phatius McBluff|Phatius McBluff]] ([[User talk:Phatius McBluff|talk]]) 17:43, 18 April 2013 (UTC) |
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I would disagree with the inclusion of this this paragraph on the basis that it is firstly just unsubstantiated opinion (new atheism is no more critical of Islam than it is of protestant creationism or the Catholic Church) Secondly, it is nothing more than a thinly veiled ad hominem attack equating new atheist criticism of Islam with Islamaphobia dressed up in academic language Thirdly, this is supposed to be an article about an emerging group of atheists who are more willing than other atheists to voice criticism of what they see as harmful religious practices. Just because two members of this group (SH & RD) have recently become involved in a heated debate about Islam doesn't to me seem relevant to this page. |
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Finally, I would also add that the further entry on Owen Jone's ad hominem attack on Richard Dawkins again appears completely irrelevant to a page discussing new atheism and it would be better off being moved to the logical fallacies section where it would be more at home. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Alanbellis|Alanbellis]] ([[User talk:Alanbellis|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alanbellis|contribs]]) 14:06, 15 August 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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Would it be useful to use religion-specific subsections in the criticism section (or perhaps to change the name of that section slightly)? This group has had just as much venom for Christianity, to be sure, and people of all religions--and other atheists--have voiced opinions of this group loudly. I'm unfortunately not bringing a lot to the table here by way of sources, but going at it this way could paint a more balanced picture, even if the section on Islam is longer because of more recent events. --[[User:Rhododendrites|Rhododendrites]] ([[User talk:Rhododendrites|talk]]) 14:42, 15 August 2013 (UTC) |
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:I'm not too bothered by the material, where it is. I realize that the subject matter is a heated one, but I think that it is within [[WP:DUE]] as reflecting criticism of the critics. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 20:44, 15 August 2013 (UTC) |
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I'm a bit concerned with the paragraph of Dawkins' tweet. Clearly the man has written books and articles. Tweets are notoriously terse and consequently inaccurate to convey the nuance of the writers thought. Surely an encyclopedia shouldn't rehash the debate about a tweet when we have books, articles and speeches worthy of commentary. This seems [[WP:UNDUE]]. [[User:Jason from nyc|Jason from nyc]] ([[User talk:Jason from nyc|talk]]) 17:58, 30 September 2013 (UTC) |
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:That's an interesting point, because maybe what he said in his tweet is not representative of the bulk of his writings. The paragraph is sourced to an article in the ''Independent'', so we have one reliable secondary source that regarded the tweet and the response to it as notable. I guess the question then becomes whether we need more secondary sources about it, to establish due weight. --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 18:44, 30 September 2013 (UTC) |
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The very fact that there is only a mention of "accusations of Islamophobia", while New Atheists criticize all religious excesses, regardless of which (of the monotheisms, usually) it concerns, is telling. No one calls them bigots when they criticize Christianity for its various negative influences today, or calls them "Jew-haters" or something when they criticize misogony found in Judaism. Islam is the last of the monotheisms that is apparently still entitled to the special privilege of being off-limits for criticism. And if they criticize Islam relatively often as opposed to the other religions, could it be there is simply more to criticize in principle, and additionally that there _are_ more excesses in practice as a result? --P, Jan 2014 <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/89.98.179.2|89.98.179.2]] ([[User talk:89.98.179.2|talk]]) 02:46, 21 January 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== List of Books by New Atheist authors and Books in Response == |
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Should their be a section that simply lists the books by the new atheist authors regarding specifically defenses of unbelief and criticisms of religion (Dawkins' The God Delusion, Harris' Letter to a Christian Nation), and the books in critical response specifically to the new atheism (McGrath's The Dawkins Delusion, P. Hitchens' The Rage Against God, etc.)? <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Thebadger33|Thebadger33]] ([[User talk:Thebadger33|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Thebadger33|contribs]]) 10:01, 17 October 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Mis-use of the word "eviscerating"? == |
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The second sentence of the current revision states that "...non-belief is eviscerating both developed countries and those more religious." Is that an appropriate use of the word "eviscerating"? The only definitions I can find have to do with removal of an animal's internal organs. What might the writer's intended meaning have been? <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Wbforbes|Wbforbes]] ([[User talk:Wbforbes|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Wbforbes|contribs]]) 05:51, 2 December 2013 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Nomination of [[:Matt Dillahunty]] for deletion == |
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<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">[[File:Ambox warning orange.svg|48px|alt=|link=]]</div>A discussion is taking place as to whether the article '''[[:Matt Dillahunty]]''' is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to [[Wikipedia:List of policies and guidelines|Wikipedia's policies and guidelines]] or whether it should be [[Wikipedia:Deletion policy|deleted]]. |
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The article will be discussed at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ Matt Dillahunty (3nd nomination) ]] until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines. |
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Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.<!-- Template:afd-notice --> [[User:Brianhe|Brianhe]] ([[User talk:Brianhe|talk]]) 14:53, 6 January 2015 (UTC) |
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== Militant atheism == |
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The page [[Militant atheism]] redirects to the [[League of Militant Atheists]] and not to [[New Atheism]]. For your information, it is currently in discussion on [[Talk:Militant atheism]].<br>[[User:Sleet A. Bbeam|Sleet A. Bbeam]] ([[User talk:Sleet A. Bbeam|talk]]) 07:27, 22 January 2015 (UTC). |
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== Chomsky, etc == |
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Link to youtube video including quoted statement[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt9QCAUPPeY]. --[[User:Ubikwit|<span style="text-shadow:black 0.07em 0.03em;class=texhtml"><font face="Papyrus">Ubikwit</font></span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Ubikwit| 連絡 ]]</sup><sub>[[Special:contributions/Ubikwit|<font color="#801818" face="Papyrus">見学/迷惑</font>]]</sub> 14:42, 12 February 2015 (UTC) |
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== Origin of the term "New Atheism"? == |
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I don't see anything in the article about who coined the term "New Atheism," or where it was first used publically in speech or writing. Considering that many "old atheists" don't find anything to distinguish new atheists from the old, the origin of the term would seem to be of central importance to this article. |
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Merely being vocal and getting published isn't really a particular mark of distinction; atheists have been doing that in every generation at least since Baron D'Holbach, and probably before. Remember Robert Ingersoll? Bertrand Russell? Madalyn Murray O'Hair? |
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Where was the term "New Atheism" first employed? |
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The term New Atheism was first appeared in the November 2006 edition of Wired magazine [[User:Converse02|Converse02]] ([[User talk:Converse02|talk]]) 16:24, 30 December 2015 (UTC) |
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== Four horsemen == |
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I've checked the source for the claim that the expression "the four horsemen of the non-apocalypse" is used in "The God Debate" The expression actually used there is "the four horsemen of atheism". What to do? --''[[User:Mick3|Mick3]] ([[User talk:Mick3|talk]]) 08:32, 3 June 2015 (UTC)'' |
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::"The Horsemen" was used in 2007 to describe a meeting of atheists, while various forms of "The Four Horsemen of ______" have been used on occasion since. "[http://www.atheistconvention.org.au/2012/04/16/wests-liberals-fail-to-help-says-hirsi-ali-the-age/ anti-apocalypse]", "[http://www.atheistconvention.org.au/2012/04/16/the-atheist-jamboree-national-times/ Anti-Apocalypse of Atheism]", etc. [[User:Xenophrenic|Xenophrenic]] ([[User talk:Xenophrenic|talk]]) 21:45, 13 April 2016 (UTC) |
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== Old Atheism == |
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The term New Atheism presupposes there was an Old Atheism. If there is a New, what is or was Old Atheism? The article doesn't explain where the term New Atheism comes from. This term is mostly used by religious people pejoratively. By not mentioning this, this article can't be serious. <small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/91.113.59.210|91.113.59.210]] ([[User talk:91.113.59.210|talk]]) 07:22, 29 September 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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::I wondered those same things, myself, [[Special:Contributions/91.113.59.210|91.113.59.210]]. If anyone of the writers has an answer, please share it. Thank you, [[User:Wordreader|Wordreader]] ([[User talk:Wordreader|talk]]) 16:03, 4 May 2017 (UTC) |
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:::Old atheism is the same, with less publicity. --[[User:Hob Gadling|Hob Gadling]] ([[User talk:Hob Gadling|talk]]) 06:59, 16 July 2017 (UTC) |
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== Michael Ruse's projected atheism == |
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Both in New Atheism's criticism section and on Michael Ruse's own page, someone has found it necessary to call him an atheist. Almost all sources cited are opinion piece of Ruse's own writing, and none of them claim atheism. They sometimes claim atheism for specific gods, and other times claim a generic "nonbelief", but never outright atheism. |
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It seems Wikipedia is the main source of this man's atheism. He once claimed atheism while making a case against New Atheism and Dawkins, but that appears to be the only time, and he could just as easily have claimed it disingenuously to put himself into a position of authority on the topic. |
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Here are some verbatim lines from the sources Wikipedia cites for his purported atheism, ''all emphasis mine'': |
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"I am not a '''devout''' Christian..." |
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"I think of myself as an agnostic on deities and ultimate meanings and that sort of thing. With respect to the main claims of Christianity – loving god, fallen nature, Jesus and atonement and salvation – I am pretty atheistic" |
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"'''God knows''' - perhaps He does! - there are enough tensions in America between science and religion." |
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And from other areas of sites Wikipedia has cited for his atheism, all in Ruse's own words: |
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"Saint Augustine in 400AD told us that we should not take the early chapters of Genesis too literally." |
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"I found that some of the things that I thought would be major stumbling blocks, specifically the problems of miracles and of evil, were not as great as feared." |
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"You could of course adopt some kind of God-directed evolution ... My suspicion is that if the problem is to be solved, then it has to be done with a theological solution rather than a scientific one. '''You need to argue from the side of Christianity''' rather than from the side of Darwinism" |
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"For the religious it is even more a moral quest, as '''we make use of our God-given talents to explore and marvel at the world He created for our abode. If being made in the image of God means anything''', it means looking fearlessly at our own nature and our past, understanding why we are as we are and how we might move forward." |
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"But what was brought home to me vividly this last week is that the greatest crime is blocking our children from seeing what a wonderful world in which we humans live and how (for those of us who are religious) '''God's greatest gift was giving us the abilities to discover this world, however strange and terrifying it may seem at times. Remember the parable of the talents.''' Don't hide them in the ground. Use them that they may multiply and that their fruits may be enjoyed." |
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I could go on and on and on and on. Does this sound like the voice of an atheist to you? [[User:A metal shard|A metal shard]] ([[User talk:A metal shard|talk]]) 15:53, 17 March 2016 (UTC) |
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:While you can and you should ask for better sources to confirm if he is/was an atheist or not, deciding for yourself that he does not '''sound''' like an atheist seems to be [[Wikipedia:No original research|Original research]]. Atheists tend to come from a variety of backgrounds and their perspectives tend to vary wildly. In a religious view with no scripture or official organization, there is no expectation of uniformity. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 18:18, 18 March 2016 (UTC) |
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::Okay. Thanks for the response, and I understand that my opinions are my own. However, invoking specific gods and referring to himself as Christian and not as atheist in the sources cited by Wikipedians as evidence of his atheism is... nonsensical at best. Certainly worse than any "original" research anyone could have done, because they apparently didn't do any research at all.[[User:A metal shard|A metal shard]] ([[User talk:A metal shard|talk]]) 09:22, 21 March 2016 (UTC) |
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::{{xt|In a religious view with no scripture or official organization...}} |
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::Good one! Thanks for the chuckle. {{smiley}} [[User:Xenophrenic|Xenophrenic]] ([[User talk:Xenophrenic|talk]]) 21:45, 13 April 2016 (UTC) |
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:Out of curiosity, if I were to decide the Pope were atheist, could I call him atheist throughout Wikipedia?[[User:A metal shard|A metal shard]] ([[User talk:A metal shard|talk]]) 09:22, 21 April 2016 (UTC) |
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== Scientific atheism is now a disambiguation link, one branch points here – propose a hatnote? == |
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The [[Scientific atheism (disambiguation)]] page points to [[Marxist-Leninist atheism]] and to here, since the stub page that was replaced talked about these two different senses. In the discussion that led up to it, we acknowledged that the term ''scientific atheism'' intends to point at something like ''New atheism'' but they are not exactly the same. It seems that one way to address this concern is to add a hatnote, or to do a better job of distinguishing on the DAB page. I'm feeling the inaptness of this particular semi-[[Hobson's choice]] as I try to go back through the considerable number of pages that pointed to "Scientific atheism" – for most, it's clear they don't mean Soviet era state-mandated atheism, but it's not clear they mean what has been called "New atheism" or some other strain of modern atheism. |
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Also, does one of us need to create a redirect from <nowiki>[[Scientific atheism (disambiguation)]] to [[Scientific atheism]]</nowiki>? I haven't been here long enough to know if that's a syntheticic thing the Wiki-engine does or if it's all done manually. [[User:jmcgnh|<b><span style="color:#248F7D"> —jmcgnh</span></b>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:jmcgnh|<span style="color:#58D582">(talk)</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/jmcgnh|<span style="color:#8F7D24">(contribs)</span>]]</b></small></sup> 21:28, 15 June 2016 (UTC) |
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== First sentence == |
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"New Atheism is the journalistic term used to describe the positions promoted by atheists of the twenty-first century." |
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This sentence is in direct contradiction with the later description of "a group of modern atheist thinkers and writers who advocate the view that superstition, religion and irrationalism should not simply be tolerated but should be countered, criticized". There is nothing in the term 'atheism' that forces atheists to want to counter religion or to be intolerant of it, no matter what century we're in. If the description of New Atheists is correct, then New Atheism isn't simply describing the positions of 21st century atheists, it's a lot more specific. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/178.238.175.74|178.238.175.74]] ([[User talk:178.238.175.74|talk]]) 15:10, 2 September 2016 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Others == |
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The others section is getting a bit out of hand. I think it short be shortened or no further entries should be made [[User:Apollo The Logician|Apollo The Logician]] ([[User talk:Apollo The Logician|talk]]) 19:47, 3 December 2016 (UTC) [[User:Apollo The Logician|Apollo The Logician]] ([[User talk:Apollo The Logician|talk]]) 19:47, 3 December 2016 (UTC) |
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== A.C Grayling as a logiciam == |
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To avoid an edit war I decided to put this here. Grayling wrote a book called a An Introduction to Philosophical Logic (1982) but that by no means makes him a logician. [[User:Apollo The Logician|Apollo The Logician]] ([[User talk:Apollo The Logician|talk]]) 20:53, 3 December 2016 (UTC) [[User:Apollo The Logician|Apollo The Logician]] ([[User talk:Apollo The Logician|talk]]) 20:53, 3 December 2016 (UTC) |
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== Porco and Grayling == |
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In [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=New_Atheism&diff=next&oldid=790613917 this edit] an anonymous editor attempted to remove Porco from the '''Others''' list and add a source that might have supported calling Grayling "a fifth horseman". Cluebot reverted this edit. |
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I'm wondering, though. As [[User:Apollo The Logician|Apollo the Logician]] mentions above, this "Others" section is perhaps getting overly long. If we look at Porco's article and the references mentioning her advocacy of atheism, it's pretty clear that she is notable for being a famous scientist and that her atheism is a smaller part of her public persona. So maybe removing her from the list would be justified? |
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As for the Joseph Adams cite about Graying that was offered, it complains about one of Grayling's books as not offering anything new and seems more dismissive of the "fifth horseman" designation than supportive. So it's not a good reference to support this part of the statement about Grayling. We know that Grayling is a very outspoken atheist, prominent for advocacy of atheism even before the emergence of New Atheism, but a better source than the Adams one is needed. |
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What do others think? [[User:jmcgnh|<b><span style="color:#248F7D">— jmcgnh</span></b>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:jmcgnh|<span style="color:#58D582">(talk)</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/jmcgnh|<span style="color:#8F7D24">(contribs)</span>]]</b></small></sup> 06:34, 16 July 2017 (UTC) |
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: Executed as proposed above. Note that the "fifth horseman" characterization does not appear on Graylings page. [[User:jmcgnh|<b><span style="color:#248F7D">— jmcgnh</span></b>]]<sup><small><b>[[User_talk:jmcgnh|<span style="color:#58D582">(talk)</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/jmcgnh|<span style="color:#8F7D24">(contribs)</span>]]</b></small></sup> 07:58, 7 August 2017 (UTC) |
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== Criticism Section again == |
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I've tagged the Criticism section with [[template:POV section]]. It's breaking NPOV in a number of ways. It breaches the "NPOV in form" aspect of the policy and is acting as a cherry-picked coatrack of quotes, soundbites and comments listed without context or coherence. It's also far too long dwarfing the rest of the article. If there are any users here with a strong opinion about it I suggest you fix it within the week or it's getting boldly edited to conform with NPOV--[[User:Cailil|<font color="#808080">'''Cailil'''</font>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Cailil|<font color="#808080">''talk''</font>]]</sup> 23:01, 9 October 2017 (UTC) |
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[edit]Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 10:01, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
A draft take over request
[edit]Greetings,
I did rewrite an article Draft:Ex-Muslim activism in Kerala which was not originally mine. I just helped it to my capacity and I will prefer some one else takes over the process of further improving of the draft.
Thanks
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 02:21, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
Criticisms from David Bentley Hart: "Deleted out of place, unsourced claim"
[edit]@GenoV84: can you please further explain your deletion of the "Criticisms from David Bentley Hart" section that I wrote? I can understand if it was "out of place" in the sense that it belongs elsewhere in the criticism section. However, I don't understand your note that it was an "unsourced claim." It is a very prominent criticism of New Atheism that has received sustained attention in numerous book reviews, major awards, etc. I had several references regarding some examples. I'm glad to talk here with you about how to improve the content, but I would appreciate a review by some other editors if your position is that this information does not belong in this article at all. Thank you for the time. Jjhake (talk) 22:13, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- @GenoV84: sorry to bother you with the above, but you can disregard it. I had stupidly thought you deleted the entire section, but I see upon looking more closely that you were just removing the little sample from the book of Hart's rhetorical style. It makes sense that such a rhetorical style sample doesn't belong here. Please excuse my pointless messages here. Jjhake (talk) 22:19, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
Not Anything
[edit]New atheism is not anything outlined here. What is outlined here is Atheism. Same as it ever was. Not new. Not old. Just Atheism. 'New atheism' is only an example of two words arbitrarily placed beside each other, with no inherent meaning whatsoever. A phrase that ought not exist anywhere. Axiomatically, this wikipedia entry ought not exist. 49.180.90.162 (talk) 11:10, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- I agree in that the people called 'New Atheist' are not actually identifying themselves as anything other than atheist. The new part is merely that they are now open about it.
- In that sense, the atheists haven't changed. They have the same views. Religion has just lost enough of it's power that it can't silence them anymore.
- However, there is also more to describe there than just atheism as a lack of belief in god : atheist intellectuals, the atheist movement, atheist activism.
- And then there's secular humanism which has a lot of cross-over with atheism but not entirely.
- So maybe 'the atheist movement' , 'atheist activism' would be better terms ? Just thinking out loud here 83.134.161.138 (talk) 11:55, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
Ayaan Hirshi Ali
[edit]Perhaps the section on Ayaan Hirshi Ali should be updated given her recent article where she now identifies as a christian. Source: https://unherd.com/2023/11/why-i-am-now-a-christian/ 83.134.161.138 (talk) 11:39, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Her "conversion" is mentioned in the article. Anyway as far as I know she has yet to state publicly that she believes in God, so she seems to be some sort of Christian atheist.Tammbecktalk 12:36, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
The New Atheism
[edit]The term the "New Atheism" was coined by Robert A. Morey in his book "The New Atheism and the Erosion of Freedom" in 1986. He later republished it in 1994 under the same name. Morey called Gordon Stein, Dennis McKinsey, Sheila Thompson of the Freedom From Religion Foundation as some of the New Atheists and this is where the term comes from. The person who writes the opening paragraph of the New Atheism in Wikipedia erroneously gives journalist Gary Wolf the credit for coining the name in 2006. Wolf may have read the book "The New Atheism" when he was younger and added this expression to his vocabulary and used it for the first time in 2006. I am not accusing Gary Wolf of intellectual dishonesty. I became an atheist around the time I read the book. I've used the New Atheism term every since I read Morey's book in about 1991. See here on Amazon.com
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Robert+A.+Morey+The+New+Atheism+1994&crid=983CVAMXRLC7&sprefix=robert+a.+morey+the+new+atheism+1994%2Caps%2C93&ref=nb_sb_noss Saber Truth Tiger (talk) 21:33, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
- This editor and the article are wrong. See for instance [1] "Whose God is dead : the challenge of the new atheism" published around 1966. Do a Google Scholar search limiting time. See also The Sinners of Graham Greene
- TA Wassmer - The Dalhousie Review, 1959 - [2] Doug Weller talk 08:52, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
You're right. I will remove those references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saber Truth Tiger (talk • contribs) 16:23, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
Ayaan Hirsi Ali Essay
[edit]The source for Ayaan's conversion (source 6) is an intelligencer article. Wouldn't it be better to use a primary source? I don't know what would be preferable from a Wikipedia culture perspective but it makes sense to me to use a primary source when one is available. Not to mention how hostile the article linked is to Ayaan. I will make this change at some point if there are no objections. Recurreset (talk) 19:16, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
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